On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:31 -0800, N B Day wrote:

...

Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:

----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500

The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans.  Not likely to be fair and balanced.

These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.

I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en.  It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.

I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time.  I have had no response.  As I said above, the postings continue.

I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up.  In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully.  Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of

I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig:  substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.

The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:

"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."

Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles

How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone?  How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles?

Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?

-- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 0:56, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  From the preliminary information I have received from others on this subject after your email arrived, I too am deeply disturbed by what has transpired.

I will be requesting the Board review this matter and determine appropriate action in the very near future.

It is important that this Board decision be made public (on this thread?) Ideally the Board's full reasoning should also be given so that people can be fully informed about how the guidelines are interpreted, and then applied. Mark

Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member

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On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:43, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:

In the spirit of openness, I will state that my preliminary (and I emphasize "preliminary") is that such a statement is reprehensible.  It is something that I would never utter, and it is something that I agree has no place in a forum such as ours.  I have personally experienced persecution at the hands of another religion in my childhood years and therefore it is very personal to me when I see someone attacking a relgion, whether it is my religion or someone else's religion.

But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way.  But at what point does it cross the line?  Some, like this one, are very clear, and others are not so clear, and subject to interpretation.

Regulating taglines in such a way is not going to be as easy as one might think and I want to see us come to a decision that is not viewed as censorship but also ensures the safe and positive collaboration of all participants in this project, across religious, political, cultural, racial and gender divides.  That is what we, the Board, will have to address.

Quite the proverbial slippery slope you're all teetering on here. What about people who insist on posting scripture from the Christian Bible as a signature in all their emails? I've seen cases of that here on the oS mailing list over the years.. .including posts from people who find such scripture offensive and are asking the originator not to post scripture... they are of course usually ignored, and the scripture is still used. Do you say no signature tags at all? If you strip signature tags, what about legal liability? Some companies insist on that multi paragraph "if you read this email and it isn't for you, delete it now or else" statement to protect themselves from lawyers whose sole purpose in life is litigation against companies who don't have that signature in all emails sent from their company email server. Do you state that there should be no signatures that offend Islam? What about ones that I've seen that are against the Jewish occupation of Palestine? Are those OK? What about if someone uses quotes from the Dali Lama? Do we allow that despite the fact that the Chinese government gets rather hot and bothered about that man? If someone has their email configured to pull a random quote from fortune, will they be required to sanitize it before clicking send? fortune has some quotes that someone somewhere will probably find offensive. Do you see the point here? This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. I don't envy the decision that's been forced upon the Board here... you cannot make the right decision. No matter what the decision is, you'll be wrong in someone's eyes. Censorship of any form is one of those things that is virtually impossible to get right. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mark V wrote:

The signature statement referred to is controversial, inflamatory and makes some feel uncomfortable. I don't know enough about the religion to know if it is accurate or defensible - it sounds like it is not from the indignation everyone is expressing. So let's assume that it is inaccurate. - We have one person who has complained, and who has indicated the consensus of another maillist was that he is overreacting. - From this thread it sounds like the complainer hasn't approached the poster to ask them to desist. Correct ?

No, he did approach the poster directly on opensuse-offtopic, the thread was "The End of Novell's Makeover Addiction".

- If the poster has been approached, asking them to stop using the tagline/signature, have they refused, /and/ continued to use the signature at issue?

Yes and yes. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Am Dienstag, 9. März 2010 22:14:30 schrieb Jeff Mitchell:

On 3/9/2010 4:05 PM, Karsten König wrote:

...

Is this the same Muir whos picture is in Sam and Max? Where you grow some fruit the shape of his head afterwards or something. Sorry for OT but it's the only Muir I know =)

No, that's John Muir, the naturalist/conservationalist who founded The Sierra Club :-)

--Jeff

hah yey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YInfr0hm4A ok then I dislike that Muir quote even more if it's the wrong one =) Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 22:57 +0100, jdd wrote:

Le 09/03/2010 22:05, Karsten König a écrit :

...

I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion.

+1

censorship is very difficult to do, even when most people agree. This is the drawback of open lists (not moderated).

I would prefere not to remove those mails, if not too frequent. And please, trim the anwsers not to spread even more the offending text...

The material which I quoted is unusually offensive and totally irrelevant to the purpose of the list. The person is perfectly entitled to his opinion, and I'm sure he can find many places to air it which are not opensuse-en. The list is about technical topics related to openSUSE, not about religion, culture or politics. This isn't really a free speech issue, since there are all sorts of speech not permitted on a technical, single purpose list: it is rather one of not being forced to read offensive and irrelevant garbage in a place in which one does not expect to encounter it. It would be a simple fix to prohibit non-germane statements on political religious or cultural topics which are likely to give offense and which are posted with the *sole purpose* of doing so, having nothing to do with technical issues of openSUSE, as is manifestly the case here. If this can't be done then the Guiding Principles are an empty statement and I'm out of here. Another little gedenken: suppose someone decided to post Mein Kampf paragraph-by-paragraph in opensuse-en as tag lines, in otherwise unobjectionable messages similar to the one I'm objecting to. Would this be permitted? -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 4:37, 2 users, load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Peter Czanik wrote:

If it is something done systematically, then I'd have objection. If it just a random quotation as seems to be in this case (most likely generated by the program "fortune"), I have no problem with it.

I suspect the quotations that come with the standard fortune database are all fairly innocuous - I doubt if the William Muir quotation is in the standard database. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 March 2010 02:38:03 jdd wrote:

the only solution whould be to prohibit all signature content...

... that has politics, religion and sex as subject :)

else to moderate the list

There are forums that are designed for moderation and have moderators. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:

2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.

So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 16:00 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:

...

2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.

So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day?

It is the name on my bank account, the name my parents called me, and the name I use in everyday life. To amplify a bit: in my experience lists which require the use of a real name (or a pseudonym that looks like a real name) seem much more civilized than ones which permit the use of "handles." -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 19:53, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 15:54, N B Day <nbday@charter.net> wrote:

1. Prohibit signatures longer than four or five lines.

Not possible to enforce. Many posters here send messages from work email accounts... which for reasons only explainable to lawyers have 8 to 20 line (or even more in some rare cases) signatures warning all sorts of silly legal stuff. Do you prohibit them from posting?

2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.

Not possible to enforce. I can make up any name I want... I'm Charles Eppendorf 3rd, Esq. See.. easy.

3. Allow only brief positive statements of personal belief or ideology; prohibit attacks on other beliefs or ideologies and personal attacks.

So... what happens if I find it offensive that someone posts their personal beliefs in Christianity. Do they still have the right to use bible verses in their signature? My point being... the oS lists are very open, and very public. Setting rigid rules like no this, or no that is just a waste of time. Look, for example, at the guideline about top-posting, bottom posting, trim and quote on the oS mailing lists... This guideline is there, and has been around for a long time, yet there are people who insist on top posting, or will always full quote the entire post they are replying to just to say "me too". That same ignoring of a guideline for signature lines will be ignored by those who don't care, don't know, or simply feel it's their right to preach whatever ideology they believe in to everyone.

The person mentioned somewhere up this thread who posts Bible verses has never attacked any other religion, he just very politely advocates for his own.  I don't think anybody finds this offensive.

Some do. I've seen these signature lines mails on many lists, and some people do take offense and ask the person to stop (they rarely do stop posting Bible verses even when requested). What's the right answer here? Is there one? I would guess that Ricardo's suggestion is probably the best... ask that all people subscribing to oS mailing lists please refrain from using *any* personal signatures at all (this leaves it clear for people posting from business accounts who have no control over the signature attached to their emails). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Censorship is not the right way. The next person is maybe offended by some of your statements or opinions expressed on this list and is going to ask the openSUSE board to take action against you. Where does it start and where will it end? If I had complained about all the silly signatures I've seen on various mailing lists over the last 15 years, I would have been very very busy indeed...

These lists operate on the basis that people will respect each other (civilised behaviour). Some people don't follow that code. The ultimate sanction is exclusion (exile) but we don't have a graded range of sanctions against minor infractions, so we're (collectively) left unable to respond and must each respond individually.

Calm down and keep cool, that's my personal recommendation.

Sound advice, but likely to be viewed by the recipient in the circumstances as "blame the messenger". N B Day brought up a valid point, and we've debated it at length, and seem to have come to the conclusion that we don't approve but the cost of action against this is greater than the benefit. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

...

N B Day brought up a valid point, and we've debated it at length, and seem to have come to the conclusion that we don't approve but the cost of action against this is greater than the benefit.

Reading all posts I had time to see different opinions and think about pros and cons.

Few poisonous comments here, few there, without anyone commenting, that content is inappropriate for opensuse, is allowing few that make such comments to select who will feel welcome and join openSUSE.

I don't feel comfortable with that idea. I don't want to surrender my right to choose on my own, as I actually did, by joying openSUSE and not something else

I agree with you, and agree that individual objections to the poster are in order and should be made, and some people will choose to block all communications from that person. The core of the issue is whether there should be some "official" or "collective" action against this boorish behaviour. That is where the "too high cost" (in knock-on effect or unintended consequences) comes in. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 22:05 +0100, Karsten König wrote:

Hmm could you provide links? Threads entitled "Novell for sale," and "Hardware Problem."

I found http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-03/msg00435.html , but another mail from the same person seems to indicate its a random quote out of a bunch of quotes he attaches.

How does that alter the case? He could attach random gibberish 99% of the time and it would not make any difference when he decides to insult 1/4 of humankind in the 1% of the cases where he attaches the objected-to quotation.

Have you actually replied to the person yourself that you feel offended?

In the off-topic list, as I said. I'm not so much offended for myself, as I'm concerned that we can ill-afford to start picking on people's religions and cultures if we want this distro to grow. And of course, the Guiding Principles expressly say that we will not do this.

I agree, the quote is distasteful and close minded, but I guess it's a quote he likes and feels like sharing in his mails, it's after the actual mail so just an attachment unspecific to the discussion. Right! It is just meanness, a provocation and a violation of the Guiding Principles.

Most come from a christian and jewish heritage here, so most aren't offended by a statement against islam. I don't think many would be offended by attaching quotes against catholics, or against a stupid former president of the USA, as people tend to have grown a thick skin on lists.

Then I weep for humanity. I'll spare you the quotation from Pastor Martin Niemöller about how they came for all the others before they got around to him.

I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion. Opensuse-en isn't a general opinion list: it has a specific purpose, which is to provide community-based help for openSUSE. Lots of speech isn't permitted there. Speech which is destructive of community and violates the Guiding Principles doesn't belong there.

I for example love this: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." and think it'd be my right to show that point of view in my mails as well, and no this isn't meant to offend anybody.

That's perfectly fine, and I happen to agree with it. I don't think anyone would object to it as a tag line on opensuse-en since it is a mere (if totally irrelevant) short statement of your own beliefs, not a paragraph-long attack (borrowed from a long-dead bigot) on anyone else's religion or culture. I hope you can see the difference. -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 5:10, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 18:25 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

By far the best way to deal with it is to ignore it.

That seems to be the consensus here. The prevailing opinion here seems to be that the language in the Guiding Principles of openSUSE is fine in theory but just too difficult to implement in the real world. I've wasted far too much time and energy on what seems to be a very unpopular position. I think I'll just go elsewhere. -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 22:19, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.07 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:

On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:31 -0800, N B Day wrote:

...

Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:

----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500

The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans.  Not likely to be fair and balanced.

These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.

I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en.  It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.

I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time.  I have had no response.  As I said above, the postings continue.

I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up.  In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully.  Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of

I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig:  substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.

The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:

"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."

Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles

How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone?  How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles?

Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?

-- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 0:56, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.  From the preliminary information I have received from others on this subject after your email arrived, I too am deeply disturbed by what has transpired.

I will be requesting the Board review this matter and determine appropriate action in the very near future.

It is important that this Board decision be made public (on this thread?) Ideally the Board's full reasoning should also be given so that people can be fully informed about how the guidelines are interpreted, and then applied. Mark

Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member

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On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:43, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:

In the spirit of openness, I will state that my preliminary (and I emphasize "preliminary") is that such a statement is reprehensible.  It is something that I would never utter, and it is something that I agree has no place in a forum such as ours.  I have personally experienced persecution at the hands of another religion in my childhood years and therefore it is very personal to me when I see someone attacking a relgion, whether it is my religion or someone else's religion.

But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way.  But at what point does it cross the line?  Some, like this one, are very clear, and others are not so clear, and subject to interpretation.

Regulating taglines in such a way is not going to be as easy as one might think and I want to see us come to a decision that is not viewed as censorship but also ensures the safe and positive collaboration of all participants in this project, across religious, political, cultural, racial and gender divides.  That is what we, the Board, will have to address.

Quite the proverbial slippery slope you're all teetering on here. What about people who insist on posting scripture from the Christian Bible as a signature in all their emails? I've seen cases of that here on the oS mailing list over the years.. .including posts from people who find such scripture offensive and are asking the originator not to post scripture... they are of course usually ignored, and the scripture is still used. Do you say no signature tags at all? If you strip signature tags, what about legal liability? Some companies insist on that multi paragraph "if you read this email and it isn't for you, delete it now or else" statement to protect themselves from lawyers whose sole purpose in life is litigation against companies who don't have that signature in all emails sent from their company email server. Do you state that there should be no signatures that offend Islam? What about ones that I've seen that are against the Jewish occupation of Palestine? Are those OK? What about if someone uses quotes from the Dali Lama? Do we allow that despite the fact that the Chinese government gets rather hot and bothered about that man? If someone has their email configured to pull a random quote from fortune, will they be required to sanitize it before clicking send? fortune has some quotes that someone somewhere will probably find offensive. Do you see the point here? This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. I don't envy the decision that's been forced upon the Board here... you cannot make the right decision. No matter what the decision is, you'll be wrong in someone's eyes. Censorship of any form is one of those things that is virtually impossible to get right. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Mark V wrote:

The signature statement referred to is controversial, inflamatory and makes some feel uncomfortable. I don't know enough about the religion to know if it is accurate or defensible - it sounds like it is not from the indignation everyone is expressing. So let's assume that it is inaccurate. - We have one person who has complained, and who has indicated the consensus of another maillist was that he is overreacting. - From this thread it sounds like the complainer hasn't approached the poster to ask them to desist. Correct ?

No, he did approach the poster directly on opensuse-offtopic, the thread was "The End of Novell's Makeover Addiction".

- If the poster has been approached, asking them to stop using the tagline/signature, have they refused, /and/ continued to use the signature at issue?

Yes and yes. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org