[opensuse-project] Do the openSUSE guiding principles mean what they say?
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line: ----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500 The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans. Not likely to be fair and balanced. These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution. I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en. It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind. I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue. I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up. In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully. Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig: substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above. The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows: "We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense." Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone? How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles? Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words? -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 0:56, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:31 -0800, N B Day wrote:
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:
----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500
The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans. Not likely to be fair and balanced.
These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.
I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en. It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.
I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue.
I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up. In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully. Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of
I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig: substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.
The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:
"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."
Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone? How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles?
Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?
-- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 0:56, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. From the preliminary information I have received from others on this subject after your email arrived, I too am deeply disturbed by what has transpired. I will be requesting the Board review this matter and determine appropriate action in the very near future. Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 12:31 -0800, N B Day wrote:
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:
----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500
The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans. Not likely to be fair and balanced.
These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.
I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en. It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.
I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue.
I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up. In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully. Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of
I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig: substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.
The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:
"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."
Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone? How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles?
Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?
-- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 0:56, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. From the preliminary information I have received from others on this subject after your email arrived, I too am deeply disturbed by what has transpired.
I will be requesting the Board review this matter and determine appropriate action in the very near future.
It is important that this Board decision be made public (on this thread?) Ideally the Board's full reasoning should also be given so that people can be fully informed about how the guidelines are interpreted, and then applied. Mark
Sincerely, Bryen M Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 11:51 +1100, Mark V wrote:
It is important that this Board decision be made public (on this thread?) Ideally the Board's full reasoning should also be given so that people can be fully informed about how the guidelines are interpreted, and then applied.
Mark
Mark, You have my word that whatever decision the Board decides to make will be fully public. We have held open meetings for all of our Board meetings for several months now and are always striving to make our process more open to the community. You are welcome to attend one of our meetings which is held every two weeks in the #opensuse-project IRC channel. Our next meeting will be tomorrow at 19:00 UTC. The full threads of this issue has been forwarded to the Board and we will review it as quickly as possible. I cannot guarantee that it will be on tomorrow's topic as I personally want to make sure that every Board member has had an opportunity to read through the full thread before issuing an opinion on this matter. But it will be done in the very near future, for sure. As two of our board members will not be present at tomorrow's meeting, I would personally prefer we not issue such an important decision at tomorrow's meeting. In the spirit of openness, I will state that my preliminary (and I emphasize "preliminary") is that such a statement is reprehensible. It is something that I would never utter, and it is something that I agree has no place in a forum such as ours. I have personally experienced persecution at the hands of another religion in my childhood years and therefore it is very personal to me when I see someone attacking a relgion, whether it is my religion or someone else's religion. But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way. But at what point does it cross the line? Some, like this one, are very clear, and others are not so clear, and subject to interpretation. Regulating taglines in such a way is not going to be as easy as one might think and I want to see us come to a decision that is not viewed as censorship but also ensures the safe and positive collaboration of all participants in this project, across religious, political, cultural, racial and gender divides. That is what we, the Board, will have to address. Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:43, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
In the spirit of openness, I will state that my preliminary (and I emphasize "preliminary") is that such a statement is reprehensible. It is something that I would never utter, and it is something that I agree has no place in a forum such as ours. I have personally experienced persecution at the hands of another religion in my childhood years and therefore it is very personal to me when I see someone attacking a relgion, whether it is my religion or someone else's religion.
But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way. But at what point does it cross the line? Some, like this one, are very clear, and others are not so clear, and subject to interpretation.
Regulating taglines in such a way is not going to be as easy as one might think and I want to see us come to a decision that is not viewed as censorship but also ensures the safe and positive collaboration of all participants in this project, across religious, political, cultural, racial and gender divides. That is what we, the Board, will have to address.
Quite the proverbial slippery slope you're all teetering on here. What about people who insist on posting scripture from the Christian Bible as a signature in all their emails? I've seen cases of that here on the oS mailing list over the years.. .including posts from people who find such scripture offensive and are asking the originator not to post scripture... they are of course usually ignored, and the scripture is still used. Do you say no signature tags at all? If you strip signature tags, what about legal liability? Some companies insist on that multi paragraph "if you read this email and it isn't for you, delete it now or else" statement to protect themselves from lawyers whose sole purpose in life is litigation against companies who don't have that signature in all emails sent from their company email server. Do you state that there should be no signatures that offend Islam? What about ones that I've seen that are against the Jewish occupation of Palestine? Are those OK? What about if someone uses quotes from the Dali Lama? Do we allow that despite the fact that the Chinese government gets rather hot and bothered about that man? If someone has their email configured to pull a random quote from fortune, will they be required to sanitize it before clicking send? fortune has some quotes that someone somewhere will probably find offensive. Do you see the point here? This is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. I don't envy the decision that's been forced upon the Board here... you cannot make the right decision. No matter what the decision is, you'll be wrong in someone's eyes. Censorship of any form is one of those things that is virtually impossible to get right. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Bryen M. Yunashko <suserocks@bryen.com> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 11:51 +1100, Mark V wrote:
It is important that this Board decision be made public (on this thread?) Ideally the Board's full reasoning should also be given so that people can be fully informed about how the guidelines are interpreted, and then applied.
Mark
Mark,
You have my word that whatever decision the Board decides to make will be fully public. We have held open meetings for all of our Board meetings for several months now and are always striving to make our process more open to the community.
You are welcome to attend one of our meetings which is held every two weeks in the #opensuse-project IRC channel. Our next meeting will be tomorrow at 19:00 UTC.
The full threads of this issue has been forwarded to the Board and we will review it as quickly as possible. I cannot guarantee that it will be on tomorrow's topic as I personally want to make sure that every Board member has had an opportunity to read through the full thread before issuing an opinion on this matter. But it will be done in the very near future, for sure.
As two of our board members will not be present at tomorrow's meeting, I would personally prefer we not issue such an important decision at tomorrow's meeting.
In the spirit of openness, I will state that my preliminary (and I emphasize "preliminary") is that such a statement is reprehensible. It is something that I would never utter, and it is something that I agree has no place in a forum such as ours.
The signature statement referred to is controversial, inflamatory and makes some feel uncomfortable. I don't know enough about the religion to know if it is accurate or defensible - it sounds like it is not from the indignation everyone is expressing. So let's assume that it is inaccurate. - We have one person who has complained, and who has indicated the consensus of another maillist was that he is overreacting. - From this thread it sounds like the complainer hasn't approached the poster to ask them to desist. Correct ? - If the poster has been approached, asking them to stop using the tagline/signature, have they refused, /and/ continued to use the signature at issue?
I have personally experienced persecution at the hands of another religion in my childhood years and therefore it is very personal to me when I see someone attacking a relgion, whether it is my religion or someone else's religion.
Hmm, what you propose is effectively vigilante justice - 'I am a vicitm therefore I have special status to judge'. For the record - nonsense. If anything, in most administration/due-process systems you'd now be expected to excuse yourself from the decison making - no? Of course you'd make an excellent statement to the list, for the board's consumption, about why this isn't just free expression to be tolerated even if it is offensive. Maybe you help establish the statement is obviously false?
But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way.
Correct. Offense/discomfort is in the eye of the beholder. So, can I really get someone removed from the community just by claiming I am offended or made to feel uncomfortable by some stupid comment, or quote they repeat, in a section of the email that is clearly marked as not part of the email substantive content? Without asking them to stop? Without them continuing after they have been asked to stop?
But at what point does it cross the line? Some, like this one, are very clear, and others are not so clear, and subject to interpretation.
Again, I'll defer to your knowledge of the religion. Mark
Regulating taglines in such a way is not going to be as easy as one might think and I want to see us come to a decision that is not viewed as censorship but also ensures the safe and positive collaboration of all participants in this project, across religious, political, cultural, racial and gender divides. That is what we, the Board, will have to address.
Bryen Yunashko openSUSE Board Member
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Mark V wrote:
The signature statement referred to is controversial, inflamatory and makes some feel uncomfortable. I don't know enough about the religion to know if it is accurate or defensible - it sounds like it is not from the indignation everyone is expressing. So let's assume that it is inaccurate. - We have one person who has complained, and who has indicated the consensus of another maillist was that he is overreacting. - From this thread it sounds like the complainer hasn't approached the poster to ask them to desist. Correct ?
No, he did approach the poster directly on opensuse-offtopic, the thread was "The End of Novell's Makeover Addiction".
- If the poster has been approached, asking them to stop using the tagline/signature, have they refused, /and/ continued to use the signature at issue?
Yes and yes. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
* Mark V <mvyver@gmail.com> [03-10-10 01:34]:
Of course you'd make an excellent statement to the list, for the board's consumption, about why this isn't just free expression to be tolerated even if it is offensive.
Then base/vulgar language would be acceptable as "free expression"?
Maybe you help establish the statement is obviously false?
Has no bearing, true/false, on the offensiveness.
But we must tread carefully to address the question of where is the line drawn. Many of us express opinions about life in general in our signature tags. And many of those opinions expressed are fairly harmless and are not interpreted as offensive in any way.
Religion and political expressions should not be present in tag lines. But the discussion of such should be allowed in the same light, of course in the proper forum, while not deviating from openSUSE guiding principles. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag, 9. März 2010 21:31:51 schrieb N B Day:
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:
----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500
Hmm could you provide links? I found http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-03/msg00435.html , but another mail from the same person seems to indicate its a random quote out of a bunch of quotes he attaches. Have you actually replied to the person yourself that you feel offended?
The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans. Not likely to be fair and balanced.
Is this the same Muir whos picture is in Sam and Max? Where you grow some fruit the shape of his head afterwards or something. Sorry for OT but it's the only Muir I know =)
These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.
I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en. It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.
I agree, the quote is distasteful and close minded, but I guess it's a quote he likes and feels like sharing in his mails, it's after the actual mail so just an attachment unspecific to the discussion.
I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue.
I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up. In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully. Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of
Again link to the forum please? If there were insults this indicates bad etiquette and the forum should deal with it appropriatly, but I think people would like to make their own opinion about it.
I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig: substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.
The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:
"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."
Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
Offense is when you feel offended, as I said I agree the quote is truly bad taste and close minded, but I don't think he intents to offend every muslim here though.
How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone?
Most come from a christian and jewish heritage here, so most aren't offended by a statement against islam. I don't think many would be offended by attaching quotes against catholics, or against a stupid former president of the USA, as people tend to have grown a thick skin on lists.
How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles? Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?
I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion. I for example love this: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." and think it'd be my right to show that point of view in my mails as well, and no this isn't meant to offend anybody. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 3/9/2010 4:05 PM, Karsten König wrote:
Is this the same Muir whos picture is in Sam and Max? Where you grow some fruit the shape of his head afterwards or something. Sorry for OT but it's the only Muir I know =)
No, that's John Muir, the naturalist/conservationalist who founded The Sierra Club :-) --Jeff
Am Dienstag, 9. März 2010 22:14:30 schrieb Jeff Mitchell:
On 3/9/2010 4:05 PM, Karsten König wrote:
Is this the same Muir whos picture is in Sam and Max? Where you grow some fruit the shape of his head afterwards or something. Sorry for OT but it's the only Muir I know =)
No, that's John Muir, the naturalist/conservationalist who founded The Sierra Club :-)
--Jeff
hah yey http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YInfr0hm4A ok then I dislike that Muir quote even more if it's the wrong one =) Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 09/03/2010 22:05, Karsten König a écrit :
I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion.
+1 censorship is very difficult to do, even when most people agree. This is the drawback of open lists (not moderated). I would prefere not to remove those mails, if not too frequent. And please, trim the anwsers not to spread even more the offending text... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org Claire Dodin:http://www.facebook.com/album.php?profile=1&id=634730124 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 22:57 +0100, jdd wrote:
Le 09/03/2010 22:05, Karsten König a écrit :
I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion.
+1
censorship is very difficult to do, even when most people agree. This is the drawback of open lists (not moderated).
I would prefere not to remove those mails, if not too frequent. And please, trim the anwsers not to spread even more the offending text...
The material which I quoted is unusually offensive and totally irrelevant to the purpose of the list. The person is perfectly entitled to his opinion, and I'm sure he can find many places to air it which are not opensuse-en. The list is about technical topics related to openSUSE, not about religion, culture or politics. This isn't really a free speech issue, since there are all sorts of speech not permitted on a technical, single purpose list: it is rather one of not being forced to read offensive and irrelevant garbage in a place in which one does not expect to encounter it. It would be a simple fix to prohibit non-germane statements on political religious or cultural topics which are likely to give offense and which are posted with the *sole purpose* of doing so, having nothing to do with technical issues of openSUSE, as is manifestly the case here. If this can't be done then the Guiding Principles are an empty statement and I'm out of here. Another little gedenken: suppose someone decided to post Mein Kampf paragraph-by-paragraph in opensuse-en as tag lines, in otherwise unobjectionable messages similar to the one I'm objecting to. Would this be permitted? -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 4:37, 2 users, load average: 0.01, 0.02, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hello, 2010-03-10 01:09 keltezéssel, N B Day írta:
Another little gedenken: suppose someone decided to post Mein Kampf paragraph-by-paragraph in opensuse-en as tag lines, in otherwise unobjectionable messages similar to the one I'm objecting to. Would this be permitted?
If it is something done systematically, then I'd have objection. If it just a random quotation as seems to be in this case (most likely generated by the program "fortune"), I have no problem with it. Next time it will joke about Hungarians or protestants (which I'm), then etc. Many people use random quotations, and censoring these because sometimes it is offensive makes more harm than good. Random quotations are not aimed against anybody by the poster. bigone112:~ # rpm -qi fortune Name : fortune Relocations: (not relocatable) [..] Summary : Random Saying Description : Fortune displays a random text string from a set of files in a certain format. [...] And the first random quotation after installation: bigone112:~ # fortune Man is the only animal that blushes -- or needs to. -- Mark Twain Bye, CzP -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Peter Czanik wrote:
If it is something done systematically, then I'd have objection. If it just a random quotation as seems to be in this case (most likely generated by the program "fortune"), I have no problem with it.
I suspect the quotations that come with the standard fortune database are all fairly innocuous - I doubt if the William Muir quotation is in the standard database. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Le 10/03/2010 01:09, N B Day a écrit :
It would be a simple fix to prohibit non-germane statements on political religious or cultural topics....
the only solution whould be to prohibit *all* signature content... else to moderate the list jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org Claire Dodin:http://www.facebook.com/album.php?profile=1&id=634730124 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 02:38:03 jdd wrote:
the only solution whould be to prohibit all signature content...
... that has politics, religion and sex as subject :)
else to moderate the list
There are forums that are designed for moderation and have moderators. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 06:26 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 02:38:03 jdd wrote:
the only solution whould be to prohibit all signature content...
... that has politics, religion and sex as subject :)
else to moderate the list
There are forums that are designed for moderation and have moderators.
I just don't think it is that hard. 1. Prohibit signatures longer than four or five lines. 2. Require that posts be signed with a real name. 3. Allow only brief positive statements of personal belief or ideology; prohibit attacks on other beliefs or ideologies and personal attacks. The person mentioned somewhere up this thread who posts Bible verses has never attacked any other religion, he just very politely advocates for his own. I don't think anybody finds this offensive. Lately, he's been posting little snippets from the American Founding Fathers which argue for the notion that the US was founded as an explicitly Christian nation. I think that this is a profound mis-reading of history, but since (again) no other point of view is being explicitly attacked, I think it is innocuous. His signature rarely exceeds four lines. The person I've complained about often posts this: ------------------------------------------------------------------- There are none so blind as those who will not open their eyes (liberals) because dogma is more important than the truth! -------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a sneering attack on an ideology, utterly irrelevant to the discussions on opensuse-en and seems to me to be improper. If it were framed as "Conservatives have their eyes open and see the truth," then it would just be a positive statement of personal belief and entirely proper. The quotation from William Muir is not in the fortune database and did not appear randomly. It was a paragraph-long attack on a culture and religion, borrowed from a 19th century bigot, not a personal statement (although the poster apparently agrees with it). It far exceeded in length the on-topic material in the post. If the Guiding Principles mean anything, this has to be out-of-bounds. -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 19:23, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.01 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:
2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.
So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day? Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, Program Manager openSUSE, aj@{novell.com,opensuse.org} Twitter: jaegerandi | Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:
2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.
So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day?
That'd be short for Not By Day, so (s)he's clearly a vampire or a photophobic. ;-) This is an awful lot of hot air (or at least electrons) for something simple. Has anyone tried to contact the offender and asked them to not send this material to this list? If not, can we have silence until someone has done so? The "someone" should be the original complainant as this is a pseudo-democratic open project. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 16:00 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:
2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.
So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day?
It is the name on my bank account, the name my parents called me, and the name I use in everyday life. To amplify a bit: in my experience lists which require the use of a real name (or a pseudonym that looks like a real name) seem much more civilized than ones which permit the use of "handles." -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 19:53, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
N B Day wrote:
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 16:00 +0100, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
On Wednesday 10 March 2010 15:54:28 N B Day wrote:
2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.
So, could you please be so kind and show your real name? Who's N B Day?
It is the name on my bank account, the name my parents called me, and the name I use in everyday life.
Enn Bee Day?
To amplify a bit: in my experience lists which require the use of a real name (or a pseudonym that looks like a real name) seem much more civilized than ones which permit the use of "handles."
How does one determine what a _real_ name is? More importantly, how is it done computationally? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 15:54, N B Day <nbday@charter.net> wrote:
1. Prohibit signatures longer than four or five lines.
Not possible to enforce. Many posters here send messages from work email accounts... which for reasons only explainable to lawyers have 8 to 20 line (or even more in some rare cases) signatures warning all sorts of silly legal stuff. Do you prohibit them from posting?
2. Require that posts be signed with a real name.
Not possible to enforce. I can make up any name I want... I'm Charles Eppendorf 3rd, Esq. See.. easy.
3. Allow only brief positive statements of personal belief or ideology; prohibit attacks on other beliefs or ideologies and personal attacks.
So... what happens if I find it offensive that someone posts their personal beliefs in Christianity. Do they still have the right to use bible verses in their signature? My point being... the oS lists are very open, and very public. Setting rigid rules like no this, or no that is just a waste of time. Look, for example, at the guideline about top-posting, bottom posting, trim and quote on the oS mailing lists... This guideline is there, and has been around for a long time, yet there are people who insist on top posting, or will always full quote the entire post they are replying to just to say "me too". That same ignoring of a guideline for signature lines will be ignored by those who don't care, don't know, or simply feel it's their right to preach whatever ideology they believe in to everyone.
The person mentioned somewhere up this thread who posts Bible verses has never attacked any other religion, he just very politely advocates for his own. I don't think anybody finds this offensive.
Some do. I've seen these signature lines mails on many lists, and some people do take offense and ask the person to stop (they rarely do stop posting Bible verses even when requested). What's the right answer here? Is there one? I would guess that Ricardo's suggestion is probably the best... ask that all people subscribing to oS mailing lists please refrain from using *any* personal signatures at all (this leaves it clear for people posting from business accounts who have no control over the signature attached to their emails). C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On 10/03/10 14:54, N B Day wrote:
[...] The person I've complained about often posts this:
------------------------------------------------------------------- There are none so blind as those who will not open their eyes (liberals) because dogma is more important than the truth! --------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a sneering attack on an ideology, utterly irrelevant to the discussions on opensuse-en and seems to me to be improper. If it were framed as "Conservatives have their eyes open and see the truth," then it would just be a positive statement of personal belief and entirely proper.
You seem too obsessed, from my point of view. Put the person's address in your email filter and you no longer have to read any of his signatures. Problem solved. Making such a fuss about a signature and giving that person such an attention is counter-productive in this case. That's probably exactly what that person wanted in the first place. Just ignoring such statements is far more powerful. In an open community, there will always be good guys and bad guys. Censorship is not the right way. The next person is maybe offended by some of your statements or opinions expressed on this list and is going to ask the openSUSE board to take action against you. Where does it start and where will it end? If I had complained about all the silly signatures I've seen on various mailing lists over the last 15 years, I would have been very very busy indeed... Calm down and keep cool, that's my personal recommendation. Th. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Censorship is not the right way. The next person is maybe offended by some of your statements or opinions expressed on this list and is going to ask the openSUSE board to take action against you. Where does it start and where will it end? If I had complained about all the silly signatures I've seen on various mailing lists over the last 15 years, I would have been very very busy indeed...
These lists operate on the basis that people will respect each other (civilised behaviour). Some people don't follow that code. The ultimate sanction is exclusion (exile) but we don't have a graded range of sanctions against minor infractions, so we're (collectively) left unable to respond and must each respond individually.
Calm down and keep cool, that's my personal recommendation.
Sound advice, but likely to be viewed by the recipient in the circumstances as "blame the messenger". N B Day brought up a valid point, and we've debated it at length, and seem to have come to the conclusion that we don't approve but the cost of action against this is greater than the benefit. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Thursday 11 March 2010 03:24:25 Administrator wrote:
N B Day brought up a valid point, and we've debated it at length, and seem to have come to the conclusion that we don't approve but the cost of action against this is greater than the benefit.
Reading all posts I had time to see different opinions and think about pros and cons. Few poisonous comments here, few there, without anyone commenting, that content is inappropriate for opensuse, is allowing few that make such comments to select who will feel welcome and join openSUSE. I don't feel comfortable with that idea. I don't want to surrender my right to choose on my own, as I actually did, by joying openSUSE and not something else
David
-- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
N B Day brought up a valid point, and we've debated it at length, and seem to have come to the conclusion that we don't approve but the cost of action against this is greater than the benefit.
Reading all posts I had time to see different opinions and think about pros and cons.
Few poisonous comments here, few there, without anyone commenting, that content is inappropriate for opensuse, is allowing few that make such comments to select who will feel welcome and join openSUSE.
I don't feel comfortable with that idea. I don't want to surrender my right to choose on my own, as I actually did, by joying openSUSE and not something else
I agree with you, and agree that individual objections to the poster are in order and should be made, and some people will choose to block all communications from that person. The core of the issue is whether there should be some "official" or "collective" action against this boorish behaviour. That is where the "too high cost" (in knock-on effect or unintended consequences) comes in. David -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
I just received two private mails which got me thinking again, my atheistic quote was chosen poorly as it states my opinion while hopefully not disrespecting others in their believes, still it's something I shouldn't push into peoples faces in a place where it's not up for public discussion, like the opensuse specific lists. Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 22:05 +0100, Karsten König wrote:
Hmm could you provide links? Threads entitled "Novell for sale," and "Hardware Problem."
I found http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2010-03/msg00435.html , but another mail from the same person seems to indicate its a random quote out of a bunch of quotes he attaches.
How does that alter the case? He could attach random gibberish 99% of the time and it would not make any difference when he decides to insult 1/4 of humankind in the 1% of the cases where he attaches the objected-to quotation.
Have you actually replied to the person yourself that you feel offended?
In the off-topic list, as I said. I'm not so much offended for myself, as I'm concerned that we can ill-afford to start picking on people's religions and cultures if we want this distro to grow. And of course, the Guiding Principles expressly say that we will not do this.
I agree, the quote is distasteful and close minded, but I guess it's a quote he likes and feels like sharing in his mails, it's after the actual mail so just an attachment unspecific to the discussion. Right! It is just meanness, a provocation and a violation of the Guiding Principles.
Most come from a christian and jewish heritage here, so most aren't offended by a statement against islam. I don't think many would be offended by attaching quotes against catholics, or against a stupid former president of the USA, as people tend to have grown a thick skin on lists.
Then I weep for humanity. I'll spare you the quotation from Pastor Martin Niemöller about how they came for all the others before they got around to him.
I agree the quote is offensive towards muslims and should not be used on this open list, but action should be chosen wisely, so cracking down on opinions will not lead to a closed list where people feel they can't express their opinion. Opensuse-en isn't a general opinion list: it has a specific purpose, which is to provide community-based help for openSUSE. Lots of speech isn't permitted there. Speech which is destructive of community and violates the Guiding Principles doesn't belong there.
I for example love this: "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." and think it'd be my right to show that point of view in my mails as well, and no this isn't meant to offend anybody.
That's perfectly fine, and I happen to agree with it. I don't think anyone would object to it as a tag line on opensuse-en since it is a mere (if totally irrelevant) short statement of your own beliefs, not a paragraph-long attack (borrowed from a long-dead bigot) on anyone else's religion or culture. I hope you can see the difference. -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 5:10, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 09 March 2010 18:40:52 N B Day wrote:
Opensuse-en isn't a general opinion list: it has a specific purpose, which is to provide community-based help for openSUSE. Lots of speech isn't permitted there. Speech which is destructive of community and violates the Guiding Principles doesn't belong there.
How we going to enforce this? With tons of email accounts that one can create on yahoo, gmail etc, banning is not an option, unless those two and few more free email services want to cooperate and remove accounts on short notice. Deleting from archives can be an option to prevent web presence of such content, but that is also extra work that someone will have to do. I'm not sure that there is enough people with access to archive server for that. -- Regards Rajko, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Martes, 9 de Marzo de 2010 15:31:51 N B Day escribió:
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line:
----------------------------------------------------------- “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.” --Sir William Muir ------------------------------------------------------------ Message ID 4B91DFA$.4010402, 4B9327B7.6030506, 4B960398.90500
The (far too kind, in my opinion) Wikipedia article on William Muir is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Muir A quotation from Muir on Islam is pretty well analogous to a quotation from Karl Luegner on the Jews or George C. Wallace on the virtues of African-Americans. Not likely to be fair and balanced.
These sentiments borrowed from Muir were not germane to the topic underthe quotation of discussion, nor could they possibly be on a list devoted to helping English-speaking openSUSE users world wide use and enjoy this wonderful distribution.
I cannot imagine what purpose the poster might have had in posting no fewer than three copies of this appalling bit of 19th century bigotry other than to make people who follow Islam or come from Islamic cultures feel discriminated against and unwanted in opensuse-en. It doesn't contribute anything, it doesn't inform, it didn't have anything to do with the topic; it's just a vile bit of slime which is designed to cause hurt to approximately one quarter of humankind.
I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue.
I addressed this in the off-topic forum (where ad hominims are on-topic) and the consensus among participants there was that I am a stupid prig and should just shut up. In the wake of this I have been favored by a large number of unsolicited private emails from some of the same people putting the point that I am a stupid prig even more forcefully. Twit filtering is so easy now that I'm not really bothered by it; I am surprised at the number and vehemence of them.the quotation of
I suggest a thought experiment for those here who may agree that I'm just a stupid prig: substitute "Jesus and the Bible" or "Judah Maccabee and the Torah" for "Muhammad and Qur'an" in the above.
The final section of the OpenSUSE Guiding Principles reads in part as follows:
"We believe that a diverse community based on mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment enabling the project to be truly successful. We don't tolerate social discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel accepted and safe from offense."
Complete text is here: http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles
How is it that someone is allowed to post the paragraph quoted above repeatedly on the opensuse-en list without comment or objection from anyone? How does permitting this comport with the Guiding Principles?
Are they just a bunch of high-sounding empty words?
I think to stop misinterpretation, bad intentions or any confusion in the future we should ask everybody removes signatures not this business (openSUSE) related from their mails. We are all together from different latitudes and longitudes on this earth (same ship) with different spiritual beliefs, political orientation, gender, etc. If we have something good, enhancer, to share with others go for it. We cannot grow up all together destroying other people cultures. We should stop thinking we are best than others but showing alternatives behavior for a good understanding and addressing our efforts toward common good for life. There is no "best", just a different mode to do things easier for each one. Regards, -- Ricardo Chung a.k.a. amonthoth openSUSE Ambassador for Panama http://en.opensuse.org/User:Amonthoth http://es.opensuse.org/Usuario:Amonthoth http://twitter.com/amon0thoth1 http://www.opensuse.org/en/ http://es.opensuse.org/Grupos_Locales_de_Usuarios -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
N B Day wrote:
Over the weekend and as recently as early today, Tuesday 9 March, an individual has posted several messages in the opensuse-en list which have the following text appended to them as a tag line: [snip] I complained to the list owner early on Sunday, my time. I have had no response. As I said above, the postings continue.
By far the best way to deal with it is to ignore it. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 18:25 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
By far the best way to deal with it is to ignore it.
That seems to be the consensus here. The prevailing opinion here seems to be that the language in the Guiding Principles of openSUSE is fine in theory but just too difficult to implement in the real world. I've wasted far too much time and energy on what seems to be a very unpopular position. I think I'll just go elsewhere. -- N. B. Day 39° 28.3964' North, 119° 48.6346' West, 1403m up Aurelius up 3 days 22:19, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.05, 0.07 Linux 2.6.31.12-0.1-desktop openSUSE 11.2 (x86_64) Gnome 2.28.2 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On 03/10/2010 06:50 PM, N B Day wrote:
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 18:25 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
By far the best way to deal with it is to ignore it.
That seems to be the consensus here.
If you read that into this discussion then I don't know...
The prevailing opinion here seems to be that the language in the Guiding Principles of openSUSE is fine in theory but just too difficult to implement in the real world.
The Guiding Principles are that. They guide people. They are to be interpreted by them and are subject to discussion (as this one). Not everyone will have the same interpretation. In the end you will have people who decide. And a decision has already been made somewhere (I made it). What more do you want? :) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE. Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org
participants (16)
-
Administrator -
amonthoth -
Andreas Jaeger -
Bryen M. Yunashko -
C -
Henne Vogelsang -
jdd -
Jeff Mitchell -
Karsten König -
Mark V -
N B Day -
Patrick Shanahan -
Per Jessen -
Peter Czanik -
Rajko M. -
Thomas Hertweck