[opensuse-project] openSUSE Guiding Principles

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Cornelius Schumacher

23 May 2007 23 May '07

13:28

Some members of the openSUSE team at Novell sat down and tried to write down the guiding principles of the openSUSE project. A first draft of the result is attached. It can also be found at http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles. The guiding principles include sections about what the projects is, what its goals and values are and how the project is governed. Our intent was to capture what the project actually is and what is current practice, not to invent anything new. We hope that this document can help clarifying what openSUSE is all about within the community as well as within Novell. The guiding principles contain the proposal of a board of maintainers for the openSUSE project. We see this board as another step to an open development model which includes the whole openSUSE community, inside and outside of Novell. Please take the current document as a draft and let us know what you think about it and how it can be improved. In the end we would like to come to a version which has broad acceptance and is adopted by the community and Novell. We hope that this can serve as a solid base for the future of the project. -- Cornelius Schumacher

Attachments:

guiding_principles.txt (text/plain — 9.1 KB)

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Francis Giannaros

23 May 23 May

14:32

On 5/23/07, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

...

Some members of the openSUSE team at Novell sat down and tried to write down the guiding principles of the openSUSE project. A first draft of the result is attached. It can also be found at http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles.

The guiding principles include sections about what the projects is, what its goals and values are and how the project is governed. Our intent was to capture what the project actually is and what is current practice, not to invent anything new. We hope that this document can help clarifying what openSUSE is all about within the community as well as within Novell.

The guiding principles contain the proposal of a board of maintainers for the openSUSE project. We see this board as another step to an open development model which includes the whole openSUSE community, inside and outside of Novell.

Please take the current document as a draft and let us know what you think about it and how it can be improved. In the end we would like to come to a version which has broad acceptance and is adopted by the community and Novell. We hope that this can serve as a solid base for the future of the project.

I'm very happy to hear about this: both the principles and the board. I fully agree with the intended scope of the board, as well: it should be for getting things done/sorted around the community, and this is something that I've been silently grumbling about for quite some time :). I'm hoping it will be able to eventually resolve a lot of issues like officialization of contributors (in some form), and areas. One question: * "Novell maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution." Wouldn't it be better to say the openSUSE community releases and maintains the distribution? Though I know in reality it's 99% Novell employees, I don't think it should imply that others -- non-Novell employees -- won't/can't be part of this maintainence and release process for the openSUSE distribution. One other point I think it's vital to stress about the board is that it should also work to have correspondence with all areas of the community, since this is one way of unifying it as I know some other areas in the community (namely, the forums) who fear of being unrepresented on such a council/board, which would result in them having unfavourable decisions enforced upon them without full communication and collaboration. I've also added some syntactical suggestions to the talk page http://en.opensuse.org/Talk:Guiding_Principles Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Adrian Schröter

15:01

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 16:32:42 wrote Francis Giannaros:

...

On 5/23/07, Cornelius Schumacher wrote: ... One question: * "Novell maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution."

Wouldn't it be better to say the openSUSE community releases and maintains the distribution? Though I know in reality it's 99% Novell employees, I don't think it should imply that others -- non-Novell employees -- won't/can't be part of this maintainence and release process for the openSUSE distribution.

While I agree that this should be the goal, I personally think that we get more users when we can guarantee that there will be maintainence backed by paid people for a certain time. Even when we manage that novell employees maybe only maintain a minority of packages, it might be a trust point for some user to hear that novell stands behind the distro and give some kind of guarantees. what do you think ? bye adrian -- Adrian Schroeter SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG N�rnberg) email: adrian@suse.de --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

15:28

Adrian Schröter wrote:

...

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* "the openSUSE community, including Novell, maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution."

the openSUSE community, backed up by Novell... the openSUSE community, with Novell support,... ??? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Jordi Massaguer i Pla

25 May 25 May

10:39

El mié, 23-05-2007 a las 17:28 +0200, jdd escribió:

...

Adrian Schröter wrote:

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* "the openSUSE community, including Novell, maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution."

the openSUSE community, backed up by Novell... the openSUSE community, with Novell support,...

I think it is important for the community to be recognized so it should be told that the openSUSE distribution it is maintained and released by the community, although 90% of the community might be Novell employees right now. Novell already maintains some professional distributions, SLED, SLES, SLERT..., if you want a strong community, you should recognize them and let them participate. I also think that there should be some kind of "Director Board" instead of a "Maintain Board". I mean that those people could take real decisions about the distribution and control and direct the development. And the Board should be elected for community members. Just a way that community can be more involved by leting them participate in the decisions. People who wants to be there, should show their merits so that they could get votes. I mean that in order to ask for votes, you should show somehow that you are involved enough. For example, it could be a group of people "electable" that could invite others that deserve it. So it would be a little meritocratic and democratic as well. Sponsoring could have some advantatges as well. For example there could be some reserved seats in the Director Board for sponsors (right now sponsors equals to Novell). But I do not think that it should be 3 of 5 chairs, like Novell is proposing with the Maintain Board. just my 5 cents trying to build a community, jordi

...

???

jdd

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Cornelius Schumacher

23 May 23 May

15:33

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 16:32, Francis Giannaros wrote:

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I'm very happy to hear about this: both the principles and the board. I fully agree with the intended scope of the board, as well: it should be for getting things done/sorted around the community, and this is something that I've been silently grumbling about for quite some time :). I'm hoping it will be able to eventually resolve a lot of issues like officialization of contributors (in some form), and areas.

Exactly. That's what we had in mind when writing down the draft document. I would be more than happy if this would work out.

...

One question: * "Novell maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution."

Wouldn't it be better to say the openSUSE community releases and maintains the distribution? Though I know in reality it's 99% Novell employees, I don't think it should imply that others -- non-Novell employees -- won't/can't be part of this maintainence and release process for the openSUSE distribution.

Yes, this sentence is in no way meant to exclude non-Novell employees from being part of distribution development. On the other hand we wanted to stress that Novell takes some special responsibility which comes with being the maintainer of an open source project. Maybe we can add to this sentence that the distribution is made by the community (which includes both Novell and non-Novell community members).

...

One other point I think it's vital to stress about the board is that it should also work to have correspondence with all areas of the community, since this is one way of unifying it as I know some other areas in the community (namely, the forums) who fear of being unrepresented on such a council/board, which would result in them having unfavourable decisions enforced upon them without full communication and collaboration.

Agreed. Communication in and with the community is essential for the board.

...

I've also added some syntactical suggestions to the talk page http://en.opensuse.org/Talk:Guiding_Principles

Thanks. I will incorporate them in the next version of the draft. -- Cornelius Schumacher --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

15:55

On May 23, 07 17:33:25 +0200, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

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On Wednesday 23 May 2007 16:32, Francis Giannaros wrote:

...
One question: * "Novell maintains and releases the openSUSE distribution."

Wouldn't it be better to say the openSUSE community releases and maintains the distribution? Though I know in reality it's 99% Novell employees, I don't think it should imply that others -- non-Novell employees -- won't/can't be part of this maintainence and release process for the openSUSE distribution.

Yes, this sentence is in no way meant to exclude non-Novell employees from being part of distribution development. On the other hand we wanted to stress that Novell takes some special responsibility which comes with being the maintainer of an open source project. Maybe we can add to this sentence that the distribution is made by the community (which includes both Novell and non-Novell community members).

Let me give it a try: "Novell provides the openSUSE community with the resources to maintain and release the openSUSE distribution." cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Oral agreements are worth about as much as the paper they are written on." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

M Harris

16:31

...

"Novell provides the openSUSE community with the resources to maintain and release the openSUSE distribution." This sounds good; however, if Novell provides a chair-person with veto authority, and if Novell as a corporation has a controlling interest in the

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 10:55, Juergen Weigert wrote: project, that fact should be made as plain as possible. Also, a very good point was made with regards to public trust... that is, the public is more likely to embrace a distro with paid developers... as silly as that is... just as a matter of perception; although, I do like the above wording--- sounds empowering. As I read through the draft two questions came to mind. The sad fact of the matter is that several (a limited few) of the "members" of the opensuse community participating with this project are rather foul-mouthed obnoxious barbarians. (not at all the friendly folks described in the Guiding Principles). I am finding it difficult to believe that the Novell corporation is tolerating the foul demeanor of those participants if in fact they are Novell employees. If they are not Novell employees, then why not moderate the language and attitudes of participants according to the Guiding Principles? I trust that this is one of the overall goals for the Guiding Principles. The second concern is that this document should contain a section which spells out the communication channels, netiquette, terms of use (and so forth), so that there is no ambiguity regarding operational protocol. This should also include proper forms of mutual respect including language, personal attack, name-calling and the like. I realize that that level of detail probably goes "beyond" guiding principles; however, if participants can spend their time working, testing, authoring, supporting, answering questions--- instead of constantly bickering and squabbling regarding proper protocol or attitude-- this is probably the best overall guiding principle. The Guiding Principles is a really good discussion draft. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Juergen Weigert

17:00

...

As I read through the draft two questions came to mind. The sad fact of the matter is that several (a limited few) of the "members" of the opensuse community participating with this project are rather foul-mouthed obnoxious barbarians. (not at all the friendly folks described in the Guiding Principles). I am finding it difficult to believe that the Novell corporation is tolerating the foul demeanor of those participants if in fact they are Novell employees. If they are not Novell employees, then why not moderate the language and attitudes of participants according to the Guiding Principles? I trust that this is one of the overall goals for the Guiding Principles. The second concern is that this document should contain a section which spells out the communication channels, netiquette, terms of use (and so forth), so that there is no ambiguity regarding operational protocol. This should also include proper forms of mutual respect including language, personal attack, name-calling and the like.

Netiquette and proper forms are valid points.

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I realize that that level of detail probably goes "beyond" guiding principles;

Not entirly beyond the scope. The guiding principles address this issue in considerable length: ] We value respect for other persons and their contributions, for other ] opinions and beliefs. We listen to arguments and address problems in a ] constructive and open way. We believe that a diverse community based on ] mutual respect is the base for a creative and productive environment ] enabling the project to be truly successfull. We don't tolerate social ] discrimination and aim at creating an environment where people feel ] accepted and safe from offenses. I believe this to be adequate language. Barbarism (amongst others) need not be explicitly adressed here. cheers, Jw. -- o \ Juergen Weigert paint it green! __/ _=======.=======_ <V> | jw@suse.de wide open suse_/ _---|____________\/ \ | 0911 74053-508 (tm)__/ (____/ /\ (/) | __________________________/ _/ \_ vim:set sw=2 wm=8 SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) "Oral agreements are worth about as much as the paper they are written on." --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Druid

17:06

...

I believe this to be adequate language. Barbarism (amongst others) need not be explicitly adressed here.

Barbarism is what MHarris is doing hijacking threads and posting offtopic stuff and stuff about the ms novell deas with FUD remarks everywhere, while trying to look like a saint and a poilitician and ignoring that he is disrupting and harassing the development (and ignoring people saying that to him), saying that he is doing all that to "dismantle the US patent system", which is his objective. Stop hijacking the threads. Cya laters, with more news from the real world, a place mharris has only heard about. Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Francis Giannaros

19:00

On 5/23/07, M Harris wrote:

...

The second concern is that this document should contain a section which spells out the communication channels, netiquette, terms of use (and so forth), so that there is no ambiguity regarding operational protocol.

The scope of the main guiding principles is wide -- it should cover the community in its entirety; I don't think it should get too specific to particular areas of communication. The respective areas (such as forums, IRC) could in theory each create their own guiding principles to supplement (of course not replace) the main principles themselves, and I think that would be a good idea. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros http://francis.giannaros.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

19:13

Il giorno mer, 23/05/2007 alle 11.31 -0500, M Harris ha scritto:

...

As I read through the draft two questions came to mind. The sad fact of the matter is that several (a limited few) of the "members" of the opensuse community participating with this project are rather foul-mouthed obnoxious barbarians. (not at all the friendly folks described in the Guiding Principles).

As I tried to tell you already, the members of the community are not barbarians, as you want to describe them. They're fair guys, usually experienced with openSUSE and Linux, who try to help people who asks question and look for help. The answers you receive were not unfair, but a direct consequence of your statements.

...

I am finding it difficult to believe that the Novell corporation is tolerating the foul demeanor of those participants if in fact they are Novell employees. If they are not Novell employees, then why not moderate the language and attitudes of participants according to the Guiding Principles?

Thanks to Novell for not doing this. OpenSUSE is a free place where you can tell your opinion. Novell is not responsible for what we write here.

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I trust that this is one of the overall goals for the Guiding Principles.

You should hope exactly the opposite in my opinion, because I think a moderator would have banned you from the list a lot of time ago.

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The second concern is that this document should contain a section which spells out the communication channels, netiquette, terms of use (and so forth), so that there is no ambiguity regarding operational protocol.

The netiquette is common sense, and it's available in Google. We should concentrate on contents, not on form. Sometime I think openSUSE thinks to form already too much.

...

This should also include proper forms of mutual respect including language, personal attack, name-calling and the like. I realize that that level of detail probably goes "beyond" guiding principles; however, if participants can spend their time working, testing, authoring, supporting, answering questions--- instead of constantly bickering and squabbling regarding proper protocol or attitude-- this is probably the best overall guiding principle.

I agree. So why don't you install alpha 4 and try to see if it works on you system? Why don't you report the bugs you find in it? Why don't you give some feedback to developers instead of complaining about barbarians who don't exist? Please, don't tell me it's too complex for non-developers people, because many of us are not developers and do that anyway. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

M Harris

20:03

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 14:13, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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As I tried to tell you already, the members of the community are not barbarians, as you want to describe them. They're fair guys, usually experienced with openSUSE and Linux, who try to help people who asks question and look for help. My experience, and the experience of many others, is contrary to your testimonial.

A fair person allows another to state his opinion freely without swearing at him, calling him names, or using vulgar sexual expletives particularly in defiance to the sensibilities and suggestions of *many* other participants. No, some are not fair, and some are most certainly barbarians. The question is one of perception anyway... and perception my friend is 99% of the game--- do opensuse project participants and leaders want a barbarian perception in the fair and free market place of ideas--- as it pertains to the success or failure of opensuse? Think about it. I think an honest and forthright adherence to the Guiding Principles will go a long way in correctly this misunderstanding of perception. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

21:44

Il giorno mer, 23/05/2007 alle 15.03 -0500, M Harris ha scritto:

...

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 14:13, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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As I tried to tell you already, the members of the community are not barbarians, as you want to describe them. They're fair guys, usually experienced with openSUSE and Linux, who try to help people who asks question and look for help. My experience, and the experience of many others, is contrary to your testimonial.

[OFF-TOPIC] (sorry) How many? Could you list some name of those barbarians and quotes where someone who was really insulted or attacked?

...

A fair person allows another to state his opinion freely without swearing at him, calling him names, or using vulgar sexual expletives particularly in defiance to the sensibilities and suggestions of *many* other participants.

Names were never used for what I remember. I again ask for examples, quotes, name of authors. You're making serious accusations, so you must have good profs.

...

No, some are not fair, and some are most certainly barbarians. The question is one of perception anyway... and perception my friend is 99% of the game--- do opensuse project participants and leaders want a barbarian perception in the fair and free market place of ideas--- as it pertains to the success or failure of opensuse? Think about it.

What you don't understand is that the success of openSUSE is bound to its quality, not to some words said on a mailing list. I would really love to let developers work on software (and they're working hard, it's quite evident), and let this hypothetical marketing (real marketing is something else) stuff out.

...

I think an honest and forthright adherence to the Guiding Principles will go a long way in correctly this misunderstanding of perception.

Human communication is made of perception too, there is nothing to correct about that. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

M Harris

24 May 24 May

08:06

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 16:44, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: First, you do not need to send the return mail to me AND to the list. All you need to do is to send it to the list.

...

...
...
As I tried to tell you already, the members of the community are not barbarians, as you want to describe them. They're fair guys, usually experienced with openSUSE and Linux, who try to help people who asks question and look for help.

My experience, and the experience of many others, is contrary to your testimonial. [ this is common knowledge... you would have to be absent, blind, and deaf to have missed it, but in case you DID miss it... never fear, that's what we have archives for.

...

How many? Could you list some name of those barbarians and quotes where someone who was really insulted or attacked? All you need to do to get a sampling is to search this site:

http://lists.opensuse.org ...for any or all of the following phrases just as starters: "stfu" "shut the fuck up" "kick your ass" ... or pick some of George Carlin's "seven words you can't say on TV"... Well... you get the idea... please do not play games here and pretend that this is not a problem, or that you are unaware of the problem. When the individuals involved (and they are a relative few) are asked to cease and desist--- then usually they escalate with defiance and make it clear that they have no intention of following any sort of Guiding Principles... barbarians never capitulate--- and they must always have the last foul word.

...

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A fair person allows another to state his opinion freely without swearing at him, calling him names, or using vulgar sexual expletives particularly in defiance to the sensibilities and suggestions of *many* other participants.

...

Names were never used for what I remember. I again ask for examples, quotes, name of authors. You're making serious accusations, so you must have good profs. Proofs, not profs... but the word you were searching for is "evidence". [see above]

...

...
No, some are not fair, and some are most certainly barbarians. The question is one of perception anyway... and perception my friend is 99% of the game--- do opensuse project participants and leaders want a barbarian perception in the fair and free market place of ideas--- as it pertains to the success or failure of opensuse? Think about it.

...

What you don't understand is that the success of openSUSE is bound to its quality, not to some words said on a mailing list. I would really love to let developers work on software (and they're working hard, it's quite evident), and let this hypothetical marketing (real marketing is something else) stuff out. The quality of the distro is very important... but not more important than good PR, and at the moment Novell has a serious PR problem. Suse is the top distro in quality (I mean this, bar none)... but it is the number two distro in distribution, second to Ubuntu. And the reason is PR, not quality. You may be in denial, but give it some more thought. Please consider something we have not discussed in detail yet... I work with folks (some of them quite young-- K-12) as an advocate for computing alternatives, open source development, the free software movement... and just plain fun with opensuse. The foul language and hostile demeanor of some of the participants to the opensuse lists (I monitor them all) prevent me from introducing the kids to this community--- its just not a safe place for them. You want someone to beta test Alpha4... wow... give it to a twelve-year-old... she'll find your bugs for you. But not now... not with this unruly behemoth. And its not just kids either... many adults are offended with sexual expletives, or blasphemy, or insults out of bathroom humor. Respect for individuals and the diversity of their respective cultures and their sensitivities mandates that all participants follow some form of protocol (call them Guiding Principles or what-have-you). Flagrant disregard for the sensibilities of others on a public mailing list (even very specific ones like opensuse) is a form of barbarism.

...

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I think an honest and forthright adherence to the Guiding Principles will go a long way in correcting this misunderstanding of perception.

Human communication is made of perception too, there is nothing to correct about that. [ see above ] To understand what needs to be corrected, just search the archives using the suggested phrases I listed for you (there are many more, but those will get you started) and then compare those snippets with the proposed Guiding Principles, and then honestly ask yourself whether anything needs to be corrected. Certainly The Guiding Principles and the opensuse mailing list archives are contradictory at the minimum, and perhaps represent hypocrisy at the extreme. But Please, do not try to pretend there is no problem.

-- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua

09:24

Il giorno gio, 24/05/2007 alle 03.06 -0500, M Harris ha scritto:

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First, you do not need to send the return mail to me AND to the list. All you need to do is to send it to the list.

It's common practise to do so.

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[ this is common knowledge... you would have to be absent, blind, and deaf to have missed it, but in case you DID miss it... never fear, that's what we have archives for.

Maybe it's your knowledge. I'm online every single day an various channels, and I don't see people continuously attacked or complaining about being attacked. It happens, yes. So what? Maybe there are reasons for that.

...

All you need to do to get a sampling is to search this site:

http://lists.opensuse.org

...for any or all of the following phrases just as starters:

"stfu" "shut the fuck up" "kick your ass"

... or pick some of George Carlin's "seven words you can't say on TV"...

Well... you get the idea... please do not play games here and pretend that this is not a problem, or that you are unaware of the problem. When the individuals involved (and they are a relative few) are asked to cease and desist--- then usually they escalate with defiance and make it clear that they have no intention of following any sort of Guiding Principles... barbarians never capitulate--- and they must always have the last foul word.

You're the only one who plays games here. You try to make things bigger than what they are and to describe community members as barbarians. And you post off-topic messages in this mailing list (sorry if I contribute, but I really can't accept your message will pass without opposition).

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Proofs, not profs... but the word you were searching for is "evidence". [see above]

Proof and evidence are synonyms. Check please.

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The quality of the distro is very important... but not more important than good PR, and at the moment Novell has a serious PR problem. Suse is the top distro in quality (I mean this, bar none)... but it is the number two distro in distribution, second to Ubuntu. And the reason is PR, not quality. You may be in denial, but give it some more thought.

Let do PR to the people who know how to do it. PR has nothing to do with the moralism you're trying to spread around.

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Please consider something we have not discussed in detail yet... I work with folks (some of them quite young-- K-12) as an advocate for computing alternatives, open source development, the free software movement... and just plain fun with opensuse. The foul language and hostile demeanor of some of the participants to the opensuse lists (I monitor them all) prevent me from introducing the kids to this community--- its just not a safe place for them. You want someone to beta test Alpha4... wow... give it to a twelve-year-old... she'll find your bugs for you. But not now... not with this unruly behemoth.

The "foul" and "hostile" language was used in very rare occasions, and not as you want to make us believe, every time and with everyone. I had a lot of discussions with the community members in the past, sometime they were animated discussions too, but I've never been personally insulted, even if I was not on topic or I was complaining maybe too much. Animated discussions are not negative if they bring somewhere, and they produce some result. They happen at work and in life. A linux specific mailing list is not the place for a twelve years old, which should not spend a lot of time in front of a PC. He should interact with _real_ people and develop his personality. So please don't teach us how to talk to a twelve years old kid, because it's out of place. It's just useless moralism, again.

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And its not just kids either... many adults are offended with sexual expletives, or blasphemy, or insults out of bathroom humor. Respect for individuals and the diversity of their respective cultures and their sensitivities mandates that all participants follow some form of protocol (call them Guiding Principles or what-have-you). Flagrant disregard for the sensibilities of others on a public mailing list (even very specific ones like opensuse) is a form of barbarism.

Respect must be earned, don't you think? And you didn't do much in that sense. Writing polite messages is not enough. You can irritate and hurt people's sensitivity even with polite messages like yours, by trying discredit members which have been contributing to the distribution since a lot of time or by emphasising issues which are really marginal. To be clear, once for all, *you* were attacked as a consequence of *your* behaviour (continuous off-topic posts, hijacking threads, ...). If you don't understand this, I don't think you have the authority to teach us about rules of communication, behaviour, and netiquette. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

James Tremblay

11:43

New subject: [opensuse-project] M Harris, please sit down. The business at hand (openSUSE development) needs to proceed uninterrupted.

On Thursday 24 May 2007 05:24, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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To be clear, once for all, *you* were attacked as a consequence of *your* behaviour (continuous off-topic posts, hijacking threads, ...). If you don't understand this, I don't think you have the authority to teach us about rules of communication, behaviour, and netiquette.

Regards, A. Seconded. -- James Tremblay Director of Technology Newmarket School District Novell CNE 3\4\5 CLE \ NCE in training. http://en.opensuse.org/education

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M Harris

21:16

...

Animated discussions are not negative if they bring somewhere, and they produce some result. They happen at work and in life. Animated discussion is fine... I've almost developed it into an art... the

...

Respect must be earned, don't you think? Respect as an individual is a human right... no one deserves to be attacked, sworn at, profaned, etc... They may have disrespect for the other person's antics (for instance, I do not respect barbarians) but that never gives someone the right to disrespect that person through personal attack or

...

You can irritate and hurt people's sensitivity even with polite messages like yours, by trying discredit members which have been contributing to the distribution since a lot of time or by emphasising issues which are really marginal. For my part in upsetting anyone's sensitivities with regard to protocol and netiquette on the opensuse lists I can only offer sincere regret. Again,

On Thursday 24 May 2007 04:24, Alberto Passalacqua wrote: problem is vulgar lewd profanity. I am not advocating right-wing moralism either... just the sensibilities expressed in the first draft Guiding Principles. Vulgar lewd profanity is in conflict with the rough draft provisions. profanity. please remember that some of the perceived protocol violation was the result of following protocol from others, or taking the advice of old-timers for proper venue.

...

To be clear, once for all, *you* were attacked as a consequence of *your* behaviour (continuous off-topic posts, hijacking threads, ...). Search the archive and tell me please why Alexey Eremenko was attacked here:

(Alexey did not deserve this barbaric behavior) <clip>

...

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Wtf is this? https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=275656

...

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Can you please stay away from bugzilla? Can you please read the instructions of the damn program? Can you please stop sending scandal emails about your major problems? Can you please stop being annoying and wasting people's time?

...

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If you are incompetent, just step away from the keyboard...

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Goddamn it

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Marcio -- Druid

Please tell me how Alexey Eremenko deserved to be attacked--- why was it necessary to swear and defame... quite in opposition to the proposed Guiding Principles. Guiding Principles cannot legislate any more than my perceived moralization. But they are a start. Again, if the participants of the opensuse mailing lists would use common sense, common sensibility, then the Guiding Principles will go a long way towards improving the PR problem for Novell... at least on the opensuse mailing lists. -- Kind regards, M Harris <>< --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Druid

21:20

On 5/24/07, M Harris wrote:

...

On Thursday 24 May 2007 04:24, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:

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Animated discussions are not negative if they bring somewhere, and they produce some result. They happen at work and in life. Animated discussion is fine... I've almost developed it into an art... the problem is vulgar lewd profanity. I am not advocating right-wing moralism either... just the sensibilities expressed in the first draft Guiding Principles. Vulgar lewd profanity is in conflict with the rough draft provisions.

...
Respect must be earned, don't you think? Respect as an individual is a human right... no one deserves to be attacked, sworn at, profaned, etc... They may have disrespect for the other person's antics (for instance, I do not respect barbarians) but that never gives someone the right to disrespect that person through personal attack or profanity.

...
You can irritate and hurt people's sensitivity even with polite messages like yours, by trying discredit members which have been contributing to the distribution since a lot of time or by emphasising issues which are really marginal. For my part in upsetting anyone's sensitivities with regard to protocol and netiquette on the opensuse lists I can only offer sincere regret. Again, please remember that some of the perceived protocol violation was the result of following protocol from others, or taking the advice of old-timers for proper venue. To be clear, once for all, *you* were attacked as a consequence of *your* behaviour (continuous off-topic posts, hijacking threads, ...). Search the archive and tell me please why Alexey Eremenko was attacked here:

(Alexey did not deserve this barbaric behavior)

<clip>

...
...
Wtf is this? https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=275656

...
...
Can you please stay away from bugzilla? Can you please read the instructions of the damn program? Can you please stop sending scandal emails about your major problems? Can you please stop being annoying and wasting people's time?

...
...
If you are incompetent, just step away from the keyboard...

...
...
Goddamn it

...
...
Marcio -- Druid

Please tell me how Alexey Eremenko deserved to be attacked--- why was it necessary to swear and defame... quite in opposition to the proposed Guiding Principles.

Guiding Principles cannot legislate any more than my perceived moralization. But they are a start. Again, if the participants of the opensuse mailing lists would use common sense, common sensibility, then the Guiding Principles will go a long way towards improving the PR problem for Novell... at least on the opensuse mailing lists.

MHarrris, So being rude is the only problem you have? Does that mean that you agree when me and others were saying you do thread hijacking, offtopic posts, you like to spread FUD? So you admit that you do all that? You admit that you are trying to make people waste time with your endless threads? You admit that your agenda is to end the US patent system, while the rest of the list is committed to make opensuse better? You admit you troll and make people waste time with those irrelevant and disrupting discussions? You haven't addressed the points, you are just complaining somebody called you stupid in a very hard way because you are doing stupid things. Still, you only comment about the format and nothing about the content. You should stop posting and stop making people waste their time with your sick discussions and thread hijacking. If you can, of course, because Im starting to believe that you have a compulsive behavior and you simply cant stop the things, like someone that is not an adult. It would be nice if some moderator helped to convince you to stop that. Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

M Harris

21:54

On Thursday 24 May 2007 16:20, Druid wrote:

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So being rude is the only problem you have? Of course... for this discussion. I believe that we can work through our differences without being rude, and the Guiding Principles are a good start toward that end.

...

Does that mean that you agree with me and others who were saying that you do thread hijacking, offtopic posts, you like to spread FUD? I do not hijack threads; however, I have continued an offtopic thread (already hijacked) because I thought it was ok. Other people do this on the opensuse list routinely... its not just me. Although, I am trying to change that, for my part at least. I admit freely that I post [OT] stuff all the time... and in the process trying to find the correct way to do that so that your time is not wasted... I genuinely thought that opensuse[OT] was ok... but have resigned myself to the idea that opensuse-offtopic is the only way, and I agree. I hate FUD. My posts are *always* an attempt to add truth and to eliminate FUD. The only thing you have to fear is fear itself--- I'm certain of that, you need not doubt it.

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You admit that you are trying to make people waste time with your endless threads? No. I don't want to waste anyone's time. I'm just searching for the right balance for participation in issues that affect opensuse in the proper context and venue so that no one is offended.

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You admit that your agenda is to end the US patent system, while the rest of the list is committed to make opensuse better? As a member of the free software movement one small part of my personal agenda is to dismantle the patent system (with regards to software, music, literature) in the United States... and around the world. I am also a dedicated computer scientist committed to assisting the open software community and the opensuse community specifically to achieve all that they can be globally as a distribution and as a community.

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You admit you troll and make people waste time with those irrelevant and disrupting discussions? I deny that I am a troll. My intent is never to disrupt... but all truth does that. My intent is never to waste time... but contemplating new ideas always takes time... My intent is never to troll... never.

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You haven't addressed the points, .... And you are begging the question--- I asked please, tell me why Alexey Eremenko was attacked? Did you apologize to him? How did you make him feel?

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You should stop posting and stop making people waste their time with your sick discussions ... The reason you want me to stop posting is because I'm right, and you do not agree with me. It is that simple. Simple censorship. Instead, you might want to see what benefit the discussion might have for your distro, your business success, your career, and your fellowship. I am not the enemy--- and I am trying to help.

Druid

22:02

...

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Does that mean that you agree with me and others who were saying that you do thread hijacking, offtopic posts, you like to spread FUD? I do not hijack threads;

you lie

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however, I have continued an offtopic thread several

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(already hijacked) because I thought it was ok.

some people think its ok to bomb cities. Does that mean we are goin to start bombing cities?

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Other people do this on the opensuse list routinely...

some people think its ok to bomb cities. Does that mean we are goin to start bombing cities?

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its not just me. Although, I am trying to change

We are going to get "the others" (tm) too, dont worry.

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I hate FUD. My posts are *always* an attempt to add truth and to eliminate

You are failing miserably

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No. I don't want to waste anyone's time. I'm just searching for the right

You are doing it forced then, or against your will, dunno

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As a member of the free software movement one small part of my personal agenda is to dismantle the patent system (with regards to software, music, literature) in the United States... and around the world.

You are in the wrong list. Told ya already. We in this list are not discussing and working on that, only in opensuse.

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I am also a dedicated computer scientist committed to assisting the open software community and the opensuse community specifically to achieve all that they can be globally as a distribution and as a community.

You are in the wrong list. Told ya already. We in this list are not discussing and working on that, only in opensuse.

...

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You admit you troll and make people waste time with those irrelevant and disrupting discussions? I deny that I am a troll. My intent is never to disrupt... but all truth does

You are disrupting without intent, then, dunno.

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that. My intent is never to waste time... but contemplating new ideas always takes time... My intent is never to troll... never.

You are trolling without intent, then, dunno.

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You haven't addressed the points, .... And you are begging the question--- I asked please, tell me why Alexey Eremenko was attacked? Did you apologize to him? How did you make him feel?

If it helped for him to stop flooding bugzilla with support issues, makes me feel proud.

...

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You should stop posting and stop making people waste their time with your sick discussions ... The reason you want me to stop posting is because I'm right, and you do not

No, dude. The reason I want you to stop posting is that there are only 2 things being created here: 1) long threads 2) heat

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business success, your career, and your fellowship. I am not the enemy--- and I am trying to help.

You are being the enemy without intent, then. You are failing to help without intent, then. I never claimed you were doing on purpose. Could perfectly be cluelessness. stop converting energy in joule losses Marcio --- druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

01:12

M Harris escribió: if Novell provides a chair-person with veto

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authority, and if Novell as a corporation has a controlling interest in the project

such persons are needed, someone has to take the decisions, elaborating about their reasons and discussing with the comunnity. like it or not they should exist. one of the biggest issues with opensource is the lack of direction, focus,leadership and proper, timely decision taking.

Patrick Shanahan

01:50

* Cristian Rodriguez R. [05-23-07 21:18]:

...

M Harris escribió: if Novell provides a chair-person with veto

...
authority, and if Novell as a corporation has a controlling interest in the project

such persons are needed, someone has to take the decisions, elaborating about their reasons and discussing with the comunnity. like it or not they should exist. one of the biggest issues with opensource is the lack of direction, focus,leadership and proper, timely decision taking.

And some is *dearly* needed on the opensuse list. The s2n ratio is ridiculous and admonitions only extend it. A moderator is needed, at least until order is restored (if possible). -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Kevin Donnelly

12:15

On Wednesday 23 May 2007 14:28, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

...

The guiding principles contain the proposal of a board of maintainers for the openSUSE project. We see this board as another step to an open development model which includes the whole openSUSE community, inside and outside of Novell.

This is a very good draft, and I look forward to seeing it develop. I have no real amendments to make. The board is a great idea - I can think of several people who should be considered for it. On a completely separate point, can we all please agree to *ignore* anything MHarris posts to these lists, since his/her/its only aim seems to be to rile people, and then we get long threads about very little. Let's focus on the positive, constructive things that Cornelius and colleagues are involved in, and add to openSUSE rather than detract from it. -- Pob hwyl / Best wishes Kevin Donnelly www.kyfieithu.co.uk - KDE yn Gymraeg www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg www.rhedadur.org.uk - Rhedeg berfau Cymraeg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Martin Schlander

20:22

Den Wednesday 23 May 2007 15:28:51 skrev Cornelius Schumacher:

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Some members of the openSUSE team at Novell sat down and tried to write down the guiding principles of the openSUSE project. A first draft of the result is attached. It can also be found at http://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_Principles.

...

Please take the current document as a draft and let us know what you think about it and how it can be improved.

Let me first join the people who think it's a very good and useful idea - and also a good first draft. I only have a few gripes about a section like this: "... create a distribution which is stable, easy to use and a complete multi purpose distribution for users and developers, for desktop and server use, for beginners and experienced users, for everybody." I wonder if we could somehow elegantly put in some things that we _don't_ want to do. For example such as running great on 20 year old hardware or cloning MS Windows or Ubuntu. Those are the best I can think of right now, other suggestions for things we don't want to do are welcome. Saying we want to be everything to everybody, is almost the same as saying nothing. One purpose of the goals should be to "guide" people's expectations - to do that the goals must also exclude something. Maybe something like "We want to create an operating system with it's own identity, that has up-to-date functionality to run on modern computers".. or something. Also I think some of the goals can be seen as contradictory - making an OS that's great for devs and grandmothers at the same time might prove difficult. Maybe we could balance it more by saying something like "we want to create a powerful, full featured OS, while making it fairly easy to use". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

20:45

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Martin Schlander wrote: ...

...

Also I think some of the goals can be seen as contradictory - making an OS that's great for devs and grandmothers at the same time might prove difficult. Maybe we could balance it more by saying something like "we want to create a powerful, full featured OS, while making it fairly easy to use".

I definitely second that. Saying that we want to do the best for everyone in every situation (almost, didn't mention embedded systems ;)) is also quite vague in terms of mission statement, directions or priorities. I don't have a better proposal atm (Martin's suits me quite well), but we should think of a _somewhat_ narrowed scope. SUSE is most probably the best allround distribution around right now, and it _is_ good at desktop and server. But still, aiming for all goals is difficult... and vague. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGVflvr3NMWliFcXcRAn6tAKCBlLFl6Q17hB1v4/7Dnyeltb8O1wCbBn5j XcsPpXc20JF4JyZTtiVI9Xo= =RqVQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Cornelius Schumacher

22:42

On Thursday 24 May 2007 22:45, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

Martin Schlander wrote: ...

...
Also I think some of the goals can be seen as contradictory - making an OS that's great for devs and grandmothers at the same time might prove difficult. Maybe we could balance it more by saying something like "we want to create a powerful, full featured OS, while making it fairly easy to use".

I definitely second that. Saying that we want to do the best for everyone in every situation (almost, didn't mention embedded systems ;)) is also quite vague in terms of mission statement, directions or priorities.

I don't have a better proposal atm (Martin's suits me quite well), but we should think of a _somewhat_ narrowed scope. SUSE is most probably the best allround distribution around right now, and it _is_ good at desktop and server. But still, aiming for all goals is difficult... and vague.

You are right, that aiming for all possible goals is vague. But isn't being an allround distro a pretty specific goal? My feeling is that this is a big part of the SUSE identity. We always tried to address a very broad range of users. In some way this is trying to reach the impossible, but that's not the worst for a mission statement. Let's leave the realistic goals to the intermediate steps to world domination ;-) Maybe we can find a better way to say this, which doesn't sound so vague. -- Cornelius Schumacher --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

25 May 25 May

00:44

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-05-25 at 00:42 +0200, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

...

You are right, that aiming for all possible goals is vague. But isn't being an allround distro a pretty specific goal? My feeling is that this is a big part of the SUSE identity. We always tried to address a very broad range of users.

I would like that aspect to continue being so :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGVjGLtTMYHG2NR9URAnv7AJ9hhL+FDa//gKA4JluKmx8kPUQqvQCeIzqB sLLSmppAeDtwRTkvCqBEwx4= =yEN4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

jdd

07:50

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

The Friday 2007-05-25 at 00:42 +0200, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

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You are right, that aiming for all possible goals is vague. But isn't being an allround distro a pretty specific goal? My feeling is that this is a big part of the SUSE identity. We always tried to address a very broad range of users.

I would like that aspect to continue being so :-)

I think there is a misunderstanding here. openSUSE aim to address any user. but where is openSUSE the best? for which user is openSUSE the best? IMHO, openSUSE is the best as new, non technical user. The best thing on openSUSE is friendlyness and this is not the most important part for admins. A thing that get this even more complicated is the fact than, on a server point of view, the best openSUSE... is SLES :-() essentially due to the extremely long support time available. So we aim to be the better distro for anybody, but we already reach the goal for non technical users (as soon as we get rid of zen and beagle on 10.3) and we challenge other distribution for technical users... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Henne Vogelsang

24 May 24 May

22:08

Hi, On Thursday, May 24, 2007 at 22:22:15, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

Also I think some of the goals can be seen as contradictory - making an OS that's great for devs and grandmothers at the same time might prove difficult.

But this is exactly what makes the difference since, uhm let me think... forever! :) There is absolutely no problem with contradictive goals. In fact they are pretty useful if you want to reach the midway. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang, http://hennevogel.de "To die. In the rain. Alone." Ernest Hemingway --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

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17 participants

participants (17)

Adrian Schröter
Alberto Passalacqua
Carlos E. R.
Cornelius Schumacher
Cristian Rodriguez R.
Druid
Francis Giannaros
Henne Vogelsang
James Tremblay
jdd
Jordi Massaguer i Pla
Juergen Weigert
Kevin Donnelly
M Harris
Martin Schlander
Pascal Bleser
Patrick Shanahan