[opensuse-project] Please close my membership
Hello, It is with despair that I ask that you cancel my membership in openSUSE. The constant bickering on the mailing lists is by far outweighing any constructive growth/change in the project, and in light of everything else going on in the world, I just don't have the headspace for all that negative, unproductive noise. I'm cc'ing the project overall; please let this serve as a lesson that if one thinks they can bicker their way to the end result they want, they may find they arrive there alone. James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud SUSE
Op dinsdag 14 juli 2020 19:19:03 CEST schreef James Mason:
Hello,
It is with despair that I ask that you cancel my membership in openSUSE. The constant bickering on the mailing lists is by far outweighing any constructive growth/change in the project, and in light of everything else going on in the world, I just don't have the headspace for all that negative, unproductive noise.
I'm cc'ing the project overall; please let this serve as a lesson that if one thinks they can bicker their way to the end result they want, they may find they arrive there alone.
James Mason Technical Architect, Public Cloud SUSE
Please don't, James. It may look like bickering what has happened on this list, yet it is not. It is about a former board member repeatedly accusing other community members of sexual discrimimation, destructive behaviour where no evidence / proof could be found. I triggered the discussion about this after the last elections on the hand- over board meeting, since the previous board again received such repeated accusations from this previous board member. Mind, such accusations IMHO have to be taken very seriously and have been researched ( also in the past ). But also IMNSHO a community member cannot make these accusations just like that, without a public apology if proven wrong or false. Board and former board members have kept silent about details, feeling bound to the confidentiality a board position ( and not only that ) requires. So board has had to deal with, re. f.e. elections, campaign. have I, so far. During the last elections ( board could not interfere due to obvious reasons ) these accusations started again leaving the board with the choice to actually interfere with the elections / candidacies . And the disccursion following brought the current board to give this re-elected former board member the choice to resign or be removed from the board. If needed I can and will provide all the evidence / proof of what actually happened, which will also make clear what an impossible situation the current board has had to deal with, re. f.e. elections, campaign. In short: Do not blame the community or all its members please. On a personal note: I've always appreciated your contributions on the lists, and your post to me is a good indication how damaging the effect of this anti- board warfare is for the Project / Community. Please reconsider your decision. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Op woensdag 15 juli 2020 02:11:53 CEST schreef Knurpht-openSUSE:
So board has had to deal with, re. f.e. elections, campaign. have I, so far. Sorry, whilst sending I removed a selection, this shoud read:
So board has had to deal this confidentiality, re. f.e. elections, campaign etc, and given my own p.o.v. on confidentiality so have I, so far. -- Gertjan Lettink a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Forums Team -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi James, James Mason <JMason@suse.com> writes:
Hello,
It is with despair that I ask that you cancel my membership in openSUSE. The constant bickering on the mailing lists is by far outweighing any constructive growth/change in the project, and in light of everything else going on in the world, I just don't have the headspace for all that negative, unproductive noise.
It saddens me seeing you leave and pains me that I have to agree with you: the overall tone on the mailinglists is imho pretty bad and weren't it for the openSUSE community on discord, I wouldn't be involved half as much as I am. Also, your mental health takes priority, so please don't fell bad for your decision. Let this rather be a reminder to everyone, that the mailinglists are one of the big public channels via which we're perceived as a community and whether we're actually want to appear the way we currently do. Just my personal 2cts, Dan -- Dan Čermák <dcermak@suse.com> Software Engineer Development tools SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5 90409 Nuremberg Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director: Felix Imendörffer
Am 2020-07-15 13:13, schrieb Dan Čermák:
openSUSE community on discord
There's openSUSE on discord? Link please. Cheers MH -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 irc: [lemmy] on freenode and ircnet obs: lemmy04 gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:12 PM Mathias Homann <Mathias.Homann@opensuse.org> wrote:
Am 2020-07-15 13:13, schrieb Dan Čermák:
openSUSE community on discord
There's openSUSE on discord? Link please.
https://discord.gg/opensuse Cheers, -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am Mittwoch, 15. Juli 2020, 15:14:36 CEST schrieb Maurizio Galli:
On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:12 PM Mathias Homann
<Mathias.Homann@opensuse.org> wrote:
Am 2020-07-15 13:13, schrieb Dan Čermák:
openSUSE community on discord
There's openSUSE on discord? Link please.
d'oh. -- Mathias Homann Mathias.Homann@openSUSE.org OBS: lemmy04 Jabber (XMPP): lemmy@tuxonline.tech IRC: [Lemmy] on freenode and ircnet (bouncer active) telegram: https://telegram.me/lemmy98 keybase: https://keybase.io/lemmy gpg key fingerprint: 8029 2240 F4DD 7776 E7D2 C042 6B8E 029E 13F2 C102
On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:
There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page. I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s). Thank you, Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 I found it much by luck The link to it is at the bottom of [https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication\_channels][https_en.opensuse.org_openSUSE_Communication_channels] It is listed under other methods but it isn't massively obvious unless you go looking for it Robin Sent from ProtonMail mobile \-------- Original Message -------- On 17 Jul 2020, 10:23, Gerald Pfeifer < gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:
There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for [build.opensuse.org][] and [software.opensuse.org][] (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).
Thank you, Gerald
\-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
[https_en.opensuse.org_openSUSE_Communication_channels]: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels [build.opensuse.org]: http://build.opensuse.org [software.opensuse.org]: http://software.opensuse.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: ProtonMail wsFmBAEBCAAQBQJfEW9xCRCfBMG52iOh3wAKCRCfBMG52iOh33o6D/45vFtT Dse+IBZd65bldLLdjQePTZ3LbsRD1HpXmoCwIGFfIVw14+3pPhiSVXEutwL0 rRajcIv/xpZDzUYAkAM8QqvPNUBAsri28/ENM+TRbjE7Sx56PzSAbJlnavPe bNt6JsUSBd/jKbGRwaREJXJUQNZZ1Op2D4W82+RYaeQKYGG3rW4wv3f2NPDq mz0g+XM7y70kpa4iIGLwM/qB69r8Xu1yw7atnxQ+ejxIen89em1BrRJ8DAuF bE2Dai63XO6x9WZKUHZUN9x7L5Zd6tPO9PJMhhuL1SScVBdQKn7/WRTeJ7et dS6lVzpCEoil+P7I+qxYQ3QWJ+zvldFBkWyn5/kf2y/w+DPd4z8EkTE3vYiI VQrnPYdDtlX019Vw62+RM7WGDfMstB1O4smQ0/X7r5m5HQQ/5hGX/hDI1gc2 ThEMXl/4+ub4N4C/2C41KMOLvmJmA0pafy1CTP0NRfo9tgjUMx8c0CMNzl1D ghUKc3+vP3PjAIvsk99TS3ZzMPsrJHEKuQIduJoRaSq2TbvdmdlipG9zMfj7 62OzCmMQ+5IjDyH7tF8vuPJIXBVADUutqHq4A2M89o88UlocBxJdB2uSyJ5f RTLtmsRT/oQQMIuRIwQiedAk6dU9YNlBaII0K0iTMmmuNZwow3IqApq1AQJY lFpRc0KYez1Fp+GGlQ== =4EtR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Am Freitag, 17. Juli 2020, 11:29:22 CEST schrieb Robin Shepheard:
I found it much by luck
The link to it is at the bottom of [https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication\_channels][https_en.opensus e.org_openSUSE_Communication_channels]
It is listed under other methods but it isn't massively obvious unless you go looking for it
Robin
Sent from ProtonMail mobile It's not a good choice for FOSS communities anyway: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-s...
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 01:05, Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> wrote:
It's not a good choice for FOSS communities anyway: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-s...
Discord is sadly still the best option for communities though, IRC, Matrix, Telegram, Slack, RocketChat have various other issues that prevent us from running them exclusively. Matrix is probably the next best thing, but still nowhere near close to it. Let me break it down. Matrix: There is no easy way to manage a group of channels, which makes dealing with any misconduct and subsequent moderation difficult to do [1] Telegram: There is no easy way to promote a group of channels, which makes a lot of communication very off-topic, regardless of the channel topic. + what was mentioned for Matrix IRC: If we ignore the IRCv3, which still isn't ready, IRC doesn't offer us functionality that most users expect from a modern chat protocol, like edits, direct image uploads, presence, server side log etc. + what was mentioned for Telegram Slack & RocketChat: Corporate solutions, meaning they do not have a "network effect" of other aforementioned solutions. People rarely use a chat application for single purpose, unless their livelyhood depends on it. This is something that prevents both from being considered as a communication method for communities. We actually had to deal with the ongoing spam issue on Matrix, so I can guarantee you it would only get worse if any of the above reached the popularity of the openSUSE Discord. Quite obviously we had some spam issues in openSUSE Discord, which made us deploy appropriate tools to deal with the issue. Due to the structure of other chat apps, solutions similar to that are not possible, and I can see how people could easily abuse that. So, unless you have better ideas, I think we might need to keep using Discord ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world [1] We kinda have a solution, which is Matrix <-> Discord bridge, which allows us to do some of the things Discord does and Matrix itself doesn't provide, but as you can guess it kinda requires Discord. Matrix developers are planning some ways to deal with this in spec, but there is nothing concrete yet in the spec, so we will have to wait for that to happen too. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 7:44 AM Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 01:05, Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> wrote:
It's not a good choice for FOSS communities anyway: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-s...
Beside the moral argument about not being FOSS that I agree with, the article's other arguments are either subjective or inaccurate (it does not require your phone number).
So, unless you have better ideas, I think we might need to keep using Discord ;)
Discord has also an advantage of being popular among younger Linux users and gamers which are both important parts of the Linux community as a whole. I don't think it would be fair to dismiss a community that already exists and is actively involved. Best, Maurizio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 09:04, Maurizio Galli <mauriziogalli@opensuse.org> wrote:
Discord has also an advantage of being popular among younger Linux users and gamers which are both important parts of the Linux community as a whole. I don't think it would be fair to dismiss a community that already exists and is actively involved.
Maybe the most immoral part of Discord happenings is our recruitment of young people to help us out with openSUSE development ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi! Just to add to the discussion: have you already thought about Zulip? Julia community is moving from Slack to Zulip and the experience has been very good so far. Furthermore, Zulip is 100% open source, with Apache 2 license. Best regards, Ronan
Em 17 de jul de 2020, à(s) 20:44, Stasiek Michalski <hellcp@opensuse.org> escreveu:
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 01:05, Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz> wrote:
It's not a good choice for FOSS communities anyway: https://sneak.berlin/20200220/discord-is-not-an-acceptable-choice-for-free-s...
Discord is sadly still the best option for communities though, IRC, Matrix, Telegram, Slack, RocketChat have various other issues that prevent us from running them exclusively. Matrix is probably the next best thing, but still nowhere near close to it. Let me break it down.
Matrix: There is no easy way to manage a group of channels, which makes dealing with any misconduct and subsequent moderation difficult to do [1]
Telegram: There is no easy way to promote a group of channels, which makes a lot of communication very off-topic, regardless of the channel topic. + what was mentioned for Matrix
IRC: If we ignore the IRCv3, which still isn't ready, IRC doesn't offer us functionality that most users expect from a modern chat protocol, like edits, direct image uploads, presence, server side log etc. + what was mentioned for Telegram
Slack & RocketChat: Corporate solutions, meaning they do not have a "network effect" of other aforementioned solutions. People rarely use a chat application for single purpose, unless their livelyhood depends on it. This is something that prevents both from being considered as a communication method for communities.
We actually had to deal with the ongoing spam issue on Matrix, so I can guarantee you it would only get worse if any of the above reached the popularity of the openSUSE Discord.
Quite obviously we had some spam issues in openSUSE Discord, which made us deploy appropriate tools to deal with the issue. Due to the structure of other chat apps, solutions similar to that are not possible, and I can see how people could easily abuse that.
So, unless you have better ideas, I think we might need to keep using Discord ;)
LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
[1] We kinda have a solution, which is Matrix <-> Discord bridge, which allows us to do some of the things Discord does and Matrix itself doesn't provide, but as you can guess it kinda requires Discord.
Matrix developers are planning some ways to deal with this in spec, but there is nothing concrete yet in the spec, so we will have to wait for that to happen too.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Sat, Jul 18, 2020 at 16:23, Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas <ronisbr@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi!
Just to add to the discussion: have you already thought about Zulip? Julia community is moving from Slack to Zulip and the experience has been very good so far. Furthermore, Zulip is 100% open source, with Apache 2 license.
I very specifically stated why Slack and Slack alternatives like RocketChat and Zulip are a terrible choice for communities, but I can repeat myself: No user will use a chat platform for one community, we either use a centralized platform with split communities concept or a federated approach so we can join into a bigger ecosystem with our own server. We are currently doing both, Discord with centralized approach with guilds as the split communities and Matrix, with federated approach and our matrix.opensuse.org homeserver (also Apache-2.0 licensed btw). If your community doesn't foresee new people to take part in development and you have another way of doing tech support, Slack clones are perfect. However, we are an inclusive community that appreciates input of anybody that is willing to help us, therefore we will empower people to join by not being separated from the rest of the internet. For the same reasons we are looking closely at Pagure, because thanks to the efforts of implementing forgefed, we will be able to easily work with other communities using Pagure, federation is pretty cool ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Am 19. Juli 2020 01:41:23 schrieb Maximilian Trummer <maximilian@trummer.xyz>:
Thanks for your responses and explanations, Stasiek.
No user will use a chat platform for one community From my own experience I know that this is unfortunately true, so I appreciate you connecting also with people on those platforms. I still have objections against Discord in general. But putting it into the context of other proprietary platforms like Twitter and Facebook the use of Discord as an onboarding tool surely is worth it.
As long as we embrace the use of alternatives. vinz. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Le 19/07/2020 à 02:30, Vinzenz Vietzke a écrit :
I still have objections against Discord in general. But putting it into the context of other proprietary platforms like Twitter and Facebook the use of Discord as an onboarding tool surely is worth it.
As long as we embrace the use of alternatives.
notice that some (many?) of us *have* to be on, say, Facebook, for family/job reason, and that the more you connect to different networks, the more you spread your data, so better stick to one if you can't have none :-( jdd -- http://dodin.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:23 PM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:
There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).
I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse Am I misunderstanding? Best, Maurizio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:53 PM Maurizio Galli <mauriziogalli@opensuse.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 5:23 PM Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Wed 2020-07-15, Mathias Homann wrote:
There's openSUSE on discord? https://discord.gg/opensuse d'oh.
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).
I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com
The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse
Am I misunderstanding? Best, Maurizio
Side note: Gerald, it would be really awesome to have you in the Discord server :) Best, Maurizio -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri 2020-07-17, Maurizio Galli wrote:
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s). I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com
The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse
Am I misunderstanding?
Yes. :-) And sorry for not realizing/raising this earlier. What I was looking for (hence the site:opensuse.org as part of the Google query above) is where on our *own* web presence do we refer to our presense in the Discord network. It appears all the top hits I get with that query above are about the discord software in openSUSE distributions or the Build Service. What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". Do you see what I mean? Gerald
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]".
I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ? -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.9°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On Thu 2020-11-26, Per Jessen wrote:
What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ?
Yes. Now what I am really after is why Google (and probably others) do not report this when I am even searching for site:opensuse.org ? (Also this page appears comprehensive, but ... overwhelming as in: lots of options, not much guidance.) Gerald
On 11/27/20 11:36 AM, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2020-11-26, Per Jessen wrote:
What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ?
Yes. Now what I am really after is why Google (and probably others) do not report this when I am even searching for site:opensuse.org ?
That is more interesting, googling openSUSE communication puts it at #1 googling openSUSE IRC puts it at #4 (with an irc specific page at 1) so google is somewhat aware of that page. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Thu 2020-11-26, Per Jessen wrote:
What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]". I think https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels might be what you after ?
Yes. Now what I am really after is why Google (and probably others) do not report this when I am even searching for site:opensuse.org ?
(Also this page appears comprehensive, but ... overwhelming as in: lots of options, not much guidance.)
We only have ourselves to blame :-) Many moons ago, it is was much easier - just subscribe to a mailing list that seems to cover your topic, and you're done. I don't know how easy it would be to provide nuch guidance. Whether you use one or the other channel is mostly about your personal preferences. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.8°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore, we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists... TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :) And we need fresh blood... -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud
Mark Stopka wrote:
Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore,
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting we revert to those days, I only wanted to point out that lack of choice made it easier. What you wrote is the problem in a nutshell, people use whatever they prefer, unfortunately thus splitting the community. In the old days, we solved that by bi-directionally gating some of the communications forms.
we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...
Maybe you have a fairly well-defined community, the majority of members being < 40, but I don't think we have that luxury here.
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)
I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.1°C) Member, openSUSE Heroes
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:01:20 +0100 Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:
Mark Stopka wrote:
Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore,
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting we revert to those days, I only wanted to point out that lack of choice made it easier. What you wrote is the problem in a nutshell, people use whatever they prefer, unfortunately thus splitting the community. In the old days, we solved that by bi-directionally gating some of the communications forms.
we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...
Maybe you have a fairly well-defined community, the majority of members being < 40, but I don't think we have that luxury here.
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)
I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)
No idea about the first word but... OG = original gangster / old geezer :) -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce
On 27/11/2020 10.04, Maurizio Galli wrote:
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:01:20 +0100 Per Jessen <> wrote:
Mark Stopka wrote:
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)
I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)
No idea about the first word but...
Too long; didn't read
OG = original gangster / old geezer
:)
-- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Too long; didn't read I feel we are all getting a little carried away and having too much fun doing so.. :) It is not bad, but let's not get carried away too far...
Without the intention to start a flame war, those under (lets say) 30 have a different way of working.
I 100% agree with this statement, I myself are at the edge of these two demographics (32 or 33 y.o. who cares?), but notice that the corporate world has adjusted to this new phenomena, and we as an open-source community will have to do it also.
If you feel that one of the IM is your tool, go for it. If you are able to handle a mail client (and webmailers are no proper mail clients) you enjoy a very efficient, structured way of handling information (including mailing lists). That helps time boxing as well.
Sure, but the attention span (jole alert) of a zoomer is 150 characters or whatever the Twitter limit is nowadays, so do they really need email for that? BTW I am using a webmail client, because I have the feeling that, and we have been pushing it in the corporate side for a while now, that emails are either one-to-one, one-to-few or multicast tools as we've seen newcomers struggle (even those of my own age above 30 who have not been involved in projects before) with this way of communication, so I have adapted to that workflow style. So let's sum-up (from my perspective), arguing what is better or not is pointless, reality is what it is, the platforms used by young newcomers (where I believe we want to recruit talent from users to contributors in that demographic) are mainly IM based, for the forums, Reddit is slowly taking over (I am not cheering, I am just saying) , what our objective should be is to identify talent, turn them into contributors and find a communication platform that will work for silver surfers, OGs, and zoomers... it is a challenge, but if we won't do it, eventually our contributors population is going to age and well... ...you hear that from your politicians whenever they talk about pension reform where that leads to... unlike pension systems we probably won't have the luxury of highly increased productivity from automation, as we already are highly automated... So the challenge here is as I see it: a) identifying talent on channels many of us don't like to use, I myself am fine with Discord and Reddit, others may be comfortable with Telegram style IM, TBH in my days of XMPP we used it just for 1:1 IMs and I plan to continue doing so, besides Signal is better for that anyway b) turning them into contributors c) agreeing on a set of tools and policies that will empower all demographics to be *somewhat* comfortable and productive at the same time, I just feel that the differences in working styles among these demographics is so wide, that one forcing the other to adapt "their way" is not feasible anymore for growing projects... young people come to OSS for experience, with Discord we give them the feel of Slack - which frankly will probably be something they will be using at their day-job after they finish studies (or who know what will be the new killer app in 5 years), that is the reality, I miss IRC as much as the other guy, but times have changed... For instance when it comes to mailing lists, I think we will have more success in that younger demographic if we also explain the way web interface for mailing-lists such as https://lists.opensuse.org/archives/list/project@lists.opensuse.org/ can be used... because of the way e-mail is perceived these days as I aforementioned... For me open-source has always been about freedom to innovate, and ability to learn and gain experience, grow, including experience on how to effectively work within a larger team... I will (have) adopt(ed) just fine, but younger folks may have trouble with it initially, and it would be a shame to "push them away" just because of that... -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud
Dne pátek 27. listopadu 2020 14:19:54 CET, Mark Stopka napsal(a):
c) agreeing on a set of tools and policies that will empower all demographics to be *somewhat* comfortable and productive at the same time, I just feel that the differences in working styles among these demographics is so wide, that one forcing the other to adapt "their way" is not feasible anymore for growing projects... young people come to OSS for experience, with Discord we give them the feel of Slack - which frankly will probably be something they will be using at their day-job after they finish studies (or who know what will be the new killer app in 5 years), that is the reality, I miss IRC as much as the other guy, but times have changed...
I can agree with You in most of points, I just wonder 1) if You still have a community if there are separated groups of people using incompatible communication tools, and 2) how are You going to coordinate their activities, e.g. on particular project? PS: This discussion makes me feel way tooooo old... :-D -- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Am 27.11.20 um 14:28 schrieb Vojtěch Zeisek:
1) if You still have a community if there are separated groups of people using incompatible communication tools, and 2) how are You going to coordinate their activities, e.g. on particular project?
That ist where the bridges come to play. LCP has been doing an incredible worthly job on that so that it mostly does not matter which chat tool / service users choose. They will get in touch with any user on any other chat service. vinz.
On Fri, 2020-11-27 at 14:28 +0100, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
Dne pátek 27. listopadu 2020 14:19:54 CET, Mark Stopka napsal(a):
c) agreeing on a set of tools and policies that will empower all demographics to be *somewhat* comfortable and productive at the same time, I just feel that the differences in working styles among these demographics is so wide, that one forcing the other to adapt "their way" is not feasible anymore for growing projects... young people come to OSS for experience, with Discord we give them the feel of Slack - which frankly will probably be something they will be using at their day-job after they finish studies (or who know what will be the new killer app in 5 years), that is the reality, I miss IRC as much as the other guy, but times have changed...
I can agree with You in most of points, I just wonder 1) if You still have a community if there are separated groups of people using incompatible communication tools, and
Absolutely. For decades we've had people who _only_ use the mailinglist or _only_ use IRC or _only_ use the Forums and yet no one has ever suggested that those people are less part of the community. Such a fact doesn't change when the number of platforms increase.
2) how are You going to coordinate their activities, e.g. on particular project?
Coordination is always a fun topic. I think some people on this list expect far more coordination than is necessary (or even appropriate). After all, in a community of volunteers the driving force is not 'what someone else said needs to be done' but what 'individual contributors feel needs to be done'. Even with no coordination at all, stuff will still get done because people willing to give their spare time to the Project will find stuff they want to do. But, with a diverse number of platforms, there's sometimes a benefit to have some coordination efforts reach out to folk on those platforms. That's why you seen Dominique's Tumbleweed reviews going to both mailinglists and blogs for example. That's why you see me tweet and blog and mailinglist-post about Kubic/MicroOS updates. Sure it's a little more work, but helps grease the wheels of this community machine while ensuring we're open to a broader audience who might not enjoy using older platforms.
On Fri 2020-11-27, Richard Brown wrote:
But, with a diverse number of platforms, there's sometimes a benefit to have some coordination efforts reach out to folk on those platforms.
+1
That's why you seen Dominique's Tumbleweed reviews going to both mailinglists and blogs for example.
That's why you see me tweet and blog and mailinglist-post about Kubic/MicroOS updates.
🙏 Question: Are we reaching sufficiently many contributors/members sufficiently well right now when it comes to announcements of board elections, changes of the election rules, other fundamental topics? Gerald
Hey there, we are dealing with a lot of gamers and they flock towards Discord nowerdays as well. The project (Holarse, a german linux gaming site) is still very bound to IRC. Not to split these groups we have some bridge bots that transfer the communication to irc <-> discord, irc <->XMPP MUC and irc <-> Matrix. Wouldn't be that an option we could join these groups together? Cheers, Bernd Am 27.11.20 um 10:01 schrieb Per Jessen:
Mark Stopka wrote:
Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists... they are just not wired that way anymore,
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting we revert to those days, I only wanted to point out that lack of choice made it easier. What you wrote is the problem in a nutshell, people use whatever they prefer, unfortunately thus splitting the community. In the old days, we solved that by bi-directionally gating some of the communications forms.
we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...
Maybe you have a fairly well-defined community, the majority of members being < 40, but I don't think we have that luxury here.
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)
I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)
We already have Matrix and IRC bridges set-up on most Discord rooms from what I can tell, so from this perspective we are somewhat fine... -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 10:06 AM Bernd Ritter <commel@gmail.com> wrote:
Hey there,
we are dealing with a lot of gamers and they flock towards Discord nowerdays as well.
The project (Holarse, a german linux gaming site) is still very bound to IRC. Not to split these groups we have some bridge bots that transfer the communication to irc <-> discord, irc <->XMPP MUC and irc <-> Matrix.
Wouldn't be that an option we could join these groups together?
Cheers, Bernd
Am Fr, 27. Nov, 2020 um 10:09 A. M. schrieb Mark Stopka <mstopka@opensuse.org>:
We already have Matrix and IRC bridges set-up on most Discord rooms from what I can tell, so from this perspective we are somewhat fine...
IRC bridge is disabled because of some ipv6 firewall issues inside of heroes vpn nobody had the time to debug ;) Telegram and Matrix bridges are working just fine though LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world
OG = original gangster / old guard :), obviously it was a pun... we could have a long debate about top-posting vs. bottom-posting, but that already took place on Hacker News 7 years ago... :) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5233428 -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 10:01 AM Per Jessen <per@opensuse.org> wrote:
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :)
I have no idea what that means ? I asked my son, age 17, didn't know either :-)
On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:06:22 +0100 Mark Stopka <mstopka@opensuse.org> wrote:
OG = original gangster / old guard :), obviously it was a pun...
we could have a long debate about top-posting vs. bottom-posting, but that already took place on Hacker News 7 years ago... :)
Most people in this list use bottom-posting, I don't care which one we use but please lets stick to ONE or it gets annoying to switch back and forth :). Also assuming this is still relevant: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette -- Maurizio Galli (m4u9) Xfce Team https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce
Dne pátek 27. listopadu 2020 10:06:22 CET, Mark Stopka napsal(a):
we could have a long debate about top-posting vs. bottom-posting, but that already took place on Hacker News 7 years ago... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5233428
Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so. A: Yes.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
-- Vojtěch Zeisek https://trapa.cz/ Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux https://www.opensuse.org/
Q: Are you still using Mutt? (the joke https://twitter.com/LiberalMark/status/1332046821061963783)
A: Yes.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon? -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA
mobile: +420 704 373 561
Vojtěch Zeisek composed on 2020-11-27 10:20 (UTC+0100):
Bottom-posting is the standard here. Let's keep it so.
A: Yes.
Q: Are you sure?
A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
+++ -- Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion, is based on faith, not on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Morning guys, let me just point out what I have thought was obvious at the time, was specifically talking about the corner-case of replying to the whole thread. -- Best regards / S pozdravem, BSc. Mark Stopka, BBA Managing Partner (at) PERLUR Group mobile: +420 704 373 561 website: www.perlur.cloud
Am Freitag, 27. November 2020, 09:32:17 CET schrieb Mark Stopka:
Good luck convincing zoomers to join mailing lists...
First of all, try to convonce them to use a free/libre video conferencing system. Z*, T*, GoToM* et al are highly overrated.
they are just not wired that way anymore, we are solving exactly this issue at the moment in different OSS project, and all we managed to come up with (majority of community are < millennials (I am millennial) and they want Telegram, Discord,... the most we managed to convince them is to subscribe to few announce-* mailing-lists...
Without the intention to start a flame war, those under (lets say) 30 have a different way of working. If you feel that one of the IM is your tool, go for it. If you are able to handle a mail client (and webmailers are no proper mail clients) you enjoy a very efficient, structured way of handling information (including mailing lists). That helps time boxing as well.
TL;DR OGs are getting OGed... :) And we need fresh blood...
What is OG? (Silver surfer asking) Axel
On Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:35:30 +0100 (CET) Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
On Fri 2020-07-17, Maurizio Galli wrote:
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s). I just did a search and it shows: 2nd place in duckduckgo 4th place in google.com and startpage.com
The entry in the results is openSUSE - Discord https://discord.com/invite/opensuse
Am I misunderstanding?
Yes. :-) And sorry for not realizing/raising this earlier.
What I was looking for (hence the site:opensuse.org as part of the Google query above) is where on our *own* web presence do we refer to our presense in the Discord network.
It appears all the top hits I get with that query above are about the discord software in openSUSE distributions or the Build Service.
What I hoped (for Google) to find is a page on opensuse.org that says something like "If you want to engage with us directly, please check out our [mailing lists] or meet us in the [forums] or on [discord]".
Do you see what I mean?
Gerald
Yes, we don't have such thing on the main opensuse.org as far as I can tell and maybe we should. Beside what was already mentioned [1] there are pointers here and there on the scattered wiki pages, like in our Xfce wiki page for example, scrolling down to "Communication: https://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Xfce All of this is perhaps not prominent enough to make it SEO. [1]https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Communication_channels PS: you only sent this to me, was it intentional? Best, Maurizio
On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 7:17 AM Maurizio Galli <mauriziogalli@opensuse.org> wrote:
PS: you only sent this to me, was it intentional?
Sorry Gerald and everyone else please ignore it. My email client is acting up, Gerald did indeed reply to the list.
On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 12:23, Gerald Pfeifer <gp@suse.com> wrote:
You raise a good point, Mathias. I knew about the openSUSE Discord channel, but searching for it now
https://www.google.com/search?&q=site%3Aopensuse.org+discord
only offers hits for build.opensuse.org and software.opensuse.org (so packages) on the first page.
I am not sufficiently familiar with our web site/design, and it would be great if one who is could have a look and add that at the appropriate place(s).
You are in that comfortable position that the moment you became the chairman, I sent you the invite ;) Joking aside, nearly the entire Discord server is bridged with our Matrix community [1], some Telegram channels, and soon with our IRC channels (when we sort out ircs:// connections through proxy), and I hope Uyuni Gitter (and maybe software-o-o Gitter, I just remember that was a thing). Matrix server will have SUSE Community login through our Element [2] and other clients that support SSO login, when I get any response from SUSE-IT on that, it's taking some time though ;) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world [1] https://matrix.to/#/+rooms:opensuse.org [2] https://chat.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (23)
-
Axel Braun -
Bernd Ritter -
Carlos E. R. -
Dan Čermák -
Felix Miata -
Gerald Pfeifer -
James Mason -
jdd＠dodin.org -
Knurpht-openSUSE -
Mark Stopka -
Mark Stopka -
Mathias Homann -
Mathias Homann
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Maurizio Galli -
Maximilian Trummer -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Robin Shepheard -
Ronan Arraes Jardim Chagas -
Simon Lees -
Stasiek Michalski -
Vinzenz Vietzke -
Vojtěch Zeisek