Patrick Shanahan escribió:

Sadly needed and very necessary.

100% agreement!

Me too. +1 Kind regards. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2008-01-17 at 23:45 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:

Den Thursday 17 January 2008 22:31:29 skrev Federico Mena Quintero:

...

GNOME has a very simple Code of Conduct [2], which is based on Ubuntu's. It can be summarized in four points:

* Be respectful and considerate. (About avoiding personal attacks or poor behavior due to disagreement)

* Be patient and generous. (About understanding that people ask for help because they need it, and avoiding "RTFM" answers)

* Assume people mean well. (About avoiding knee-jerk responses when you disagree with something)

* Try to be concise. (About avoiding repetition of topics and off-topic discussions)

We would like to propose that openSUSE adopt the same principles for its Code of Conduct. I don't foresee any need to have a "police" for this; when something goes out ofhand, we can simply discuss cases of repeated offences and take the appropriate action. The Board can certainly help with this.

What do you think?

I think those points will only ever apply to the regulars, the active and knowledgable users who spend their free time doing support.

While I agree that people needing help should be treated decent. There should also be some demands and responsibilities directed at the new users. That they should ask precise polite questions, provided needed information, put some effort in their posts, be thankful for any help they get, refrain from bashing openSUSE if they happen to have a problem of some sort etc. Usually the people that are assaulted really have been asking for it for a while...

Apart from the Guidelines we also have our netiquette btw.: http://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_mailing_list_netiquette

And the IRC-channel has these rules too: http://suse-irc.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?21

The problem is not lack of rules. And it's not only the active people that get a little harsh from time to time that's the problem either, the people that ask the questions that are lazy, whiney, demanding and ungrateful are also part of the problem.

I suggest to add another item.

* If you're lazy, whiney, demanding, disrespectful towards openSUSE or GNU/Linux in general, or ungrateful or ignore the answers you have indeed gotten, aka. druid is allowed to call you whatever names he damn pleases.

We should not only protect the n00bs, but also the activists and the l33t gurus.

[Disclaimer: I don't read opensuse@o.o, but I hang out in IRC and elsewhere in the community, and assume the issues are the same as everywhere] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

There is the side that many aren't getting paid. So should they have to put up with the "lazy, whiney, demanding, disrespectful towards openSUSE or GNU/Linux in general, or ungrateful or ignore the answers you have indeed gotten"? Everyone could be a little nicer, I guess. On the other hand, we could just boot those that start causing grief. That way we can be nice to everyone that's left in the channel. :) Stephen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 * Kevin Dupuy [01-19-08 22:33]: ...

I'm not on the IRC a lot, but I am on the mailinglist and more often than not, the disrespectful ones are the long time users (Or, more properly, those who are not asking the question, but the answerers.) I rarely come across a disrespectful OP.

"disrespectful" has many faces such as excessive quoting four levels deep and/or full quoting, aside from trash talking, abuse and derision, or ridicule of openSUSE and off-topic posting. Following the guildelines makes for easy reading of problems and solutions and provides a searchable archive with *answers* rather thousands of worthless hits with inaccurate subject lines and ...... There really *is* a valid reason for the guidelines and expecting adherence. Notice I trimmed the long deep quotes. - -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHksSDClSjbQz1U5oRAqWyAJ90IwzTMLcfWxS10R3GMsqnGeQMbQCaAySq sCWcuC9FjaMkXZpc1iKK0DU= =zzYD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 18 January 2008 11:02:33 am Martin Lasarsch wrote:

And no, i have no idea what to do if this is not working ...

I understand Federico's post as Board reaction to obviously increasing trend to go beyond acceptable. The opensuse@opensuse.org is example. I can agree with Banjamin that simple rules will not work well. Being civil and tolerant has different meaning for differnet people and in different cultures. Make more detailed rules, what is allowed and what not, how will be sanctioned each attempt to break the rules, will help people to find out where is the line that should not be crossed. Technically: Speed up work on voting system. It will help much. Too many negative votes, and offender is out. I guess it is not impossible to make it automatic, low average grade limits your ability to post comments, for instance number of posts. Cloaking or posting huge comments, to go around the system, will kick you out for some time. Do it again, and you can look for some other place. To list all that is objective is impossible, but it is possible to identify and add to the list what most of the people find as objective. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 18 January 2008 05:32:41 pm Pascal Bleser wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Friday 18 January 2008 11:02:33 am Martin Lasarsch wrote:

...

And no, i have no idea what to do if this is not working ...

[...]

...

Technically: Speed up work on voting system. It will help much. Too many negative votes, and offender is out.

I guess it is not impossible to make it automatic, low average grade limits your ability to post comments, for instance number of posts. Cloaking or posting huge comments, to go around the system, will kick you out for some time. Do it again, and you can look for some other place.

[...]

I don't think there's any benefit in such measures that, btw, are quite complex to implement.

People who want to abuse and troll will keep on doing it, they'll cloak, they'll use other servers to connect with a different IP, they'll create new email addresses on gmail or yahoo, etc...

There is also different ways to troll. Some are blatant, some not easy to detect. Different people have different opinion what is trolling, etc.

I'm afraid we really do need a "police". Which means we need people who help with that.

cheers

I would call that moderators. Guys that have authority to give warning, or ban those that ignore warnings. How to do that in timely manner, without access to mail list server, is another question? There is few more: Who can be moderator? Where moderators can exchange experience? Who oversees their activity? Who is solving disputes between moderators? How user can verify that he/she is warned by moderator? -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 19 January 2008 09:12:03 am Druid wrote:

...

...

People who want to abuse and troll will keep on doing it, they'll cloak, they'll use other servers to connect with a different IP, they'll create new email addresses on gmail or yahoo, etc...

There is also different ways to troll. Some are blatant, some not easy to detect. Different people have different opinion what is trolling, etc.

This is why Pascal is correct and the voting thing you've proposed is completely doomed to fail.

Automated is far fetched idea, but voting system is not. Board needs something that will give them idea what majority of users want. In market economy is bad idea to ignore majority, it strikes back hard, and openSUSE is supported with companies that live on the market. The problem is: "How to detect what is acceptable for majority?" [...]

Those who will step up to be "moderators" [...]

Nobody was asked to step up. Volunteer is not only self appointed (that is how it works right now), but also the one that is invited and accepted invitation. Volunteer moderator is not necessarily with power to enforce decision, but for sure the one that has good judgment how to deal with irregularities (most of the time). It is actually good idea to separate judgment and execution. That will prevent personal affinities to influence decision. Take volunteer as Board trustee in communication media content matters.

First, with all that you want to force an infrastructure to be created (your vote out system), and who is goin to program, design and test it? I would prefer people investing their time in the distro, instead. [...] When I see people proposing "lets vote" and stuff in things like this I can not help to think that what you really want is to impose your own will by voting manipulation. Most things in places like this are taken by consensus, and not by voting. Sensible decisions comes by consensus, not by voting.

Above seems to address someone else, not me. I don't see any prerequisites in my possesion that will allow me to 'force' anything or to perform 'voting manipulation'.

In all media there are already "moderators" and people in charge. As I've said earlier, solving problems is all about solving problems. We can create a code of conduct, guideline, bylaws, constitutions, improvement day task lists, but they are going to be piece of internetic papers if people are not going to act and enforce on that.

+1

And from what I know, things are getting enforced. Let the people do their jobs.

It seems that it doesn't work quite well, otherwise Board will not come with idea that something has to be done. [...]

...

Who is solving disputes between moderators?

Nobody, in a meritocracy that's usually not needed, people are sensible enough to get to a common conclusion without needing to vote.

Meritocracy is not good if you are trying to convice somebody to use your product or you have to deal with volunteers. It works within company, where people are bound with will to make money, but outside is useless.

...

How user can verify that he/she is warned by moderator?

They already do in the appropriate media

It is about verification that warning came from officially appointed one, not from wannabe one. It is not only warning for one person, but for all that read the thread. Final warning will anyway come from list operator. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 19 January 2008 05:09:10 pm Pascal Bleser wrote:

Rajko M. wrote:

...

On Saturday 19 January 2008 09:12:03 am Druid wrote:

...

...

...

People who want to abuse and troll will keep on doing it, they'll cloak, they'll use other servers to connect with a different IP, they'll create new email addresses on gmail or yahoo, etc...

There is also different ways to troll. Some are blatant, some not easy to detect. Different people have different opinion what is trolling, etc.

This is why Pascal is correct and the voting thing you've proposed is completely doomed to fail.

Automated is far fetched idea, but voting system is not.

Maybe you should explain in a little more detail what you actually mean with voting (from a technical point of view). My understanding of what you wrote is that when someone is abusing/trolling, he's put up to a vote of anyone on whether he should be banned or not.

That would be one of uses for voting results. The basic idea is probably the same as trust rating system enhanced with details on user behavior measured, for instance, by 4 criteria in Code of Conduct, quality of answers, and maybe more. There is a question who should be included. It is planned that trust rating is applied only to those that have user directory. When it goes about mail lists there should be either obligation to use user directory to access any media under opensuse.org, which may have positive effect on subscribe/unsubscribe problems (it is not obvious how to do that), or to keep separate list of users for mail lists that will be populated by list-owner, or still non existing community list moderators.

I don't see that as a practical approach, just because 1) abuse on IRC has to be stopped immediately, it's real time, it's annoying for the 200+ people in the room 2) abuse on forums is legion, moderators spend quite some time removing and banning spam and trolls every single day

On mailing-lists, it might be possible, but even there it's just too slow of a process.

The rating is not meant to give solution for a problem that has to be solved in real time, but as assistance for moderators to make right decision. To prevent overreaction on moderator's bad day. One day it can be automated so you click on mail link, fill minimal complain, send to special account that receives complaints, where script parses email and after 10-20 complains from different email addresses, target account is automatically suspended. Next day list owner solves the problem. The other idea is to have more than one moderator with right to suspend someones account. Having more people available is good as there will be always someone that can take over when one moderator has a bad day, and tendency to overreact. BTW: If there is no way to organize at least few more moderators and give them more rights to decide what is right and what not, if all actions have to be performed by Novell stuff that can override any community decision than there is no community. There will be always clear division.

...

Board needs something that will give them idea what majority of users want. In market economy is bad idea to ignore majority, it strikes back hard, and openSUSE is supported with companies that live on the market.

We're not in a market economy. It's obviously important to know what the majority wants, but it's also important to know what the best solutions and choices are, based on experience (technical, community, ...).

As long as main sponsor is in market economy, we are too. Knowing what majority wants is the way to look for best solutions. Looking elswhere for some academic best solutions we can find them, but who is going to use them.

...

The problem is: "How to detect what is acceptable for majority?"

You can't, because the majority isn't even participating in polls/votes nor discussions like these (and that's much more important issue than the code of conduct, but I'm not sure whether it can be solved).

One poll that no one can avoid is openSUSE wiki popular pages. I used them to see where to put effort when for a days I felt pretty alone editing wiki. Speed up the effort for user directory, count hits and publish results. Having results hidden is shooting yourself in the foot.

That situation, btw, can only be improved through more communication, accessible communication channels, unification of the various parts of our community (people helping on mailing-lists, people busy on the several forums we have, regulars on IRC, packagers, developers, translators, wiki contributors, etc...).

My preferred way is static mail or even better usenet. You know, typing is not the best of my skills. Besides NNTP has couple of fine features: - I can delete post if notice errors too late. - When it is used one server posts appear on the spot, just like IRC I still can't understand why some people prefer IRC with its mess of messages instead of nice threading in NNTP.

I don't think there's anything wrong with - having guidelines that define what we think are good practices and a good ground for fertile collaboration, contribution and use (note that "we" = the community, as the Guidelines have been discussed at length on this mailing-list)

Every group larger than few people need guidelines. Ours came right in time.

- having moderators who enforce those rules, and other aspects they think are necessary for having a working community

See above BTW.

...

[...]

...

Those who will step up to be "moderators"

[...]

Nobody was asked to step up. Volunteer is not only self appointed (that is how it works right now), but

How do you mean, "volunteers are self appointed right now" ?

Aren't they? If someone don't step up as private person and take moderation role (and flames) unwanted thread will go on. Novell can't help there. There is no enough employees to take over 24/7 duty of moderating. Sad thing is that guy that wants to keep order is treated by offenders really bad. The problem is that offenders appear to me lesser and lesser as spontaneous undisciplined guys, and more as guys with intention.

...

also the one that is invited and accepted invitation. Volunteer moderator is not necessarily with power to enforce decision, but for sure the one that has good judgment how to deal with irregularities (most of the time). It is actually good idea to separate judgment and execution. That will prevent personal affinities to influence decision.

What you are writing may apply in a government, but certainly not for the actual matters we're discussing. This is about a code of conduct for communication and behaviour, most specifically in things like mailing-lists, forums and IRC. When you have someone with abusive behaviour (insulting, blatantly trolling, spamming, etc...) who generates a lot of frustration and bad mood on a community media, you have to get rid of him as quickly as possible, as it's driving people away. There's no time to make a public vote at a parliament and then have administrators close down accounts.

In real life you don't wait for a voting to put robber in a jail, but also police is not a judge. Having more persons that see decision is good idea. Some have to be police and some judges. That is all.

...

Take volunteer as Board trustee in communication media content matters.

I really don't think the analogy applies.

It is not analogy, it is just another description what moderator should be. If Board has no confidence in anyone to ask him to be a moderator and to give him tools to performe duty, than all talk about openSUSE community, is just talk.

...

It seems that it doesn't work quite well, otherwise Board will not come with idea that something has to be done.

To me the reasons are two-fold: - it is currently working reasonably well, but can be improved

What is reasonably well in calling guys that are trying to keep order 'anal retards' and repeating that in another post. Any reaction? No, I haven't seen. What is the message to those that tried to keep list civil without Board or Novell amen: "<any insult>, you should not do that".

- it's mostly about having it written black on white somewhere (which is mostly the case but in different locations, written by different people, ...)

It is good to have background for moderators, but as Marcio mentioned it is all about doing, not contemplating.

...

[...]

...

...

Who is solving disputes between moderators?

Nobody, in a meritocracy that's usually not needed, people are sensible enough to get to a common conclusion without needing to vote.

Meritocracy is not good if you are trying to convice somebody to use your product or you have to deal with volunteers. It works within company, where people are bound with will to make money, but outside is useless.

Actually it's the exact opposite. Meritocracy is a distinctive feature of communities as ours (opensource communities), and doesn't apply _at_ _all_ in the corporate environment (in companies that want to make money).

While I have misunderstood Marcio's comment, discussion is not about meritocracy (which has pretty blurred definition, and it is applied in real life heavilly), but "How to solve problem between moderators?" ...

The others, the "wannabees" as you call them yourself, are not helping the community and hence.. who cares.

Hmm. Everybody without ability to stop someones trolling is treated as 'wannabe'.

And before you pick on that point, the community isn't some beast that has to be nurtured by sleepless nights of its enslaved contributors. The community is us. It's you, it's me, it's the users, it's the contributors. But to me, the very first condition for being part of a community is wanting to take part in it.

Nice words. Now how to attract those that still don't find compelling reason to take part in it. Being called names helps competition.

...

...

...

How user can verify that he/she is warned by moderator?

They already do in the appropriate media

It is about verification that warning came from officially appointed one, not from wannabe one. It is not only warning for one person, but for all that read the thread. Final warning will anyway come from list operator.

See, that's what meritocracy is all about: the mods aren't wannabees.

Is that the answer on question "How user can verify that he/she is warned by moderator?"

And what would an "officially appointed one" be ? Someone from Novell ? Someone designated into that role by .. whom, public vote (where? how? is that representative of a majority?), the board, Novell ?

Could we just grow up and stop looking up to Novell or "officialness" to actually get something done ?

If you don't have plug, you can't do anything. Having a plug makes person 'official'. Novell or Board can give access to that plug. The other option is to create own communication media, and not beg anybody for permission or trust. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 22 January 2008 08:22:23 pm Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

Druid escribió:

...

Nobody, it shouldnt be the most democratic system where everybody has equal rights. It should be a meritocracy, and in a meritocracy you dont need to vote

I agree with your analysis and I really cannot imagine any other way to govern the community that will possible work.

You may not be able to imagine, or you may not want to. First detailed information on meritocracy: http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+meritocracy Is in those definitions something that tells, there is no voting? Definitions of meritocracy seems to tell the same as definition of democracy, where democracy has additional requirement of formal voting as method of selection among skilled, lesser skilled and 'skilled', while meritocracy does not mention exact method. That means for meritocracy, any, including dirty methods are among possibilities, which made call for meritocracy with explicit exclusion of voting suspicious to me. How to choose one candidate among few with similar merit? How to exclude those that doesn't meet the merit? Who is making decision? In corporations it is one that is hiring or making decision about promotions and demotions according to by him perceived appropriate position. This leads often to games that should twist that perception, and as result it seems that meritocracy is not what is applicable for corporations, but it is, completely end entirely, guys that have better understanding of criteria that lead to promotion get one. If someone can explain why this is not meritocracy, using above definitions. Who can claim so much intellectual superiority that voting is not needed, as result is known ahead? Those that have it usually want it confirmed by formal voting, just to see how many of followers agree with them, and vice versa, those that have no merit want to avoid formal voting as it can discard their self proclaimed suitability. It seems that voting or trust rating is needed in openSUSE community to establish or clarify merits among those that are not clearly in advantage, like Pascal, with his own openSUSE repositories, and few others, that work hard and efficient on openSUSE popularity investing time, money and intellect, in community. Novell employees with special status within grounder and main sponsor Novell are not in cometition anyway. BTW, I'm tired of this and will spend no more time replying. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 23 January 2008 04:31:12 am jdd wrote:

Federico Mena Quintero a écrit :

...

On behalf of the openSUSE Board, I would like to propose the adoption of a Code of Conduct for openSUSE.

dear folks :-)

When making a discussion, allow some delay for people to anwswer, for example I was on travel these days and could not answer before.

I may say that most argument have been said by one or an other.

In summary, I don't think anything could be usefull if not backed by a (group of) moderator, with permissions to remove an entire thread from the archives.

That would be the most appropriate, as my feeling is that for some posters that would be ultimate argument not to spend time posting.

I'm nearly certain than knowing this action is possible will give to the moderator's advices enough power not to have to use it

+1

a private mail to any user from the moderator saying "stop, please" could have a very good effect.

If not, than some ability to make polite request real is needed.

If the @opensuse.org mails are cautiously given, any mail or post from one of these adress may also have some effect, saving moderator time, as do today a mail from novell.com

+1

it's completely unusefull to make new Code of Conduct other than usual usenet ones.

+1

May I say than on opensuse list (I don't use IRC), some noise is done by a small bunch of people (I myself received some offending private mails)

jdd

-- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Do you know what is really ridiculous? It's when somebody who claims to be an expert and long term SuSE community member (I don't want to mention any names, but I could) with a track record of violent and rude

And for the record, I am an expert and long term SUSE community member, I dont really claim that all the time nor I have the deep need to go tell that to everybody and tell everyone desperately to look at me, because oh I am so cool because I have a terrible ego problem. Those who know me, knows enough if I am, or I am not an expert, or long time community member, or what I did or didnt, or whatever. And do you know whats ridiculous for me? Its when I read an email about people complaining about irc in the mail-list, instead of the irc channel. Additionally, I find ridiculous when somebody sends an email saying that the solution for all the problems in the mail-list is to create a "system" where he and others could "moderate" the things without "having access to the mail server". And of course, its also ridiculous when instead of dicussing the problem, they start with offtopic in the thread, discussing about meritocracy in industries and the definition of the word meritocracy. Thats plain ridiculous. I also find terribly ridiculous when people instead of doing things, they invent lots of tasks to other people do, instead of doing themselves. Its the most easy thing to sit down and start to distributing orders, and arrogantly say that everything is wrong, and that it would be much better if we had a crazy bureaucracy and a "system to let people moderate without having access to the mailserver". Its terrible when clueless people dont show the respect and dont even know people are working on stuff. And instead of helping, no, they just want to distribute orders. And instead of helping, no, they want to send an email to the list and force people to give them the so called privileges, just because other 5 people who are often too much ignorant about what is going on will send an email saying "yeah, wow wee, we should really have a mega moderation system with the heaviest bureaucracy one can ever imagine, because that will solve the problem woohoo". And as one person have said earlier in this thread, when somebody joins the opensuse mail-list and say "opensuse are incompetent, and if he could, he would sue everybody", I find that as agressive, as pricky, as terrible as somebody "being aggressive". When somebody starts crossposting from opensuse-offtopic, somebody that supposedly knows how to handle a mail client like a pro (enough to flood mailboxes with 4GB of crap), I find that aggressive. And when somebody starts distributing orders and forcing stuff to other people, instead of doing something, I find that aggressive. When somebody sends an email to the list saying Novell should sell SLES for 10 dollars just because he wants so, I find that aggressive, because in the end they are saying to the developers that their job is worthless. When somebody comes to a list to tell how irc should be handled, I find that aggressive, because I dont see those people on IRC showing why we should do what they've said. When I see people talking about what they dont understand like they were the real pros on the issue, I find that aggressive, because ego-driven lunatics should not be putting their ego in front of the collective, which they often do. The most aggressive thing, though, in my opinion, is some people in the mail-list, instead of putting themselves and their egos away, in favour of the project, or in favour of getting things done, no, they start their ego problems and wants to put themselves and their coolness factor in the lists in 1st place, and try to look cool, and try to show off, instead of quietly at least let the others do their work. They need to show to the planet how cool they are, how l33t hackers they are. They need to go to endless discussions, they need to start crazy offtopics, they need to answer every single email, even those that they have no idea about the topic. But hopefully its not everyone. So, Thomas, you may think you get the big picture, that you really understand the masterplan... But maybe you dont. Thanks for your input, hope you are feeling better now, if you feel like being the judge, I dont mind sincerely. Everybody is an expert, until you have to put your hands to work. Best Regards Marcio Ferreira --- Druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2008-01-23 at 18:20 -0600, David Alston wrote:

Greetings!

Would the moderators (if there are any) *please* KILL THIS THREAD! it is embarrassing. I'm new to this email list, and a relatively new opensuse user. I agree that there should be some general codes of conduct.. but those should be set by the moderators.. and the people who don't like the codes of conduct or how they are being enforced and care enough about it they should be encouraged to start up their own email list.

Just so you know... this thread was proposed by an openSUSE Board Member, and one I consider quite respectable. The Board could have simply instituted a new Code of Conduct without any input from the community. But in the interest of community involvement, it was presented to the community on this list. It is a valid discussion for the Project list. And as you have yourself stated, you are new to the list. The Board was seeking an equitable resolution to past transgressions, however various people perceive of them. Since it is germane to the Project list, in my opinion, and thus not a needless thread, might I propose you simply create a filter to block out this thread specifically? --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org

Druid wrote:

[...]

And do you know whats ridiculous for me?

Druid, your email is the best proof for my previous statements. When you don't like things on the opensuse mailinglist, you could simply say (for instance) "Chaps, we can't solve IRC problems on this mailing list. Get in touch with the channel operators in case something happens and if they don't take action, send an inquiry to ... and he might check it out". That would be polite, respectful, and helpful. Alternatively, if you don't like people asking these questions, save the time it takes to respond and just ignore them. However, your answers usually read "What the f*ck are you dong here? You are wasting the valuable time of opensuse developers. Get out of here you id*ot, solve your own problems. What's wrong with your ego? Go and see a psychiatrist". This example is not exaggerated, there is plenty of evidence, and *many* people told you that this is an unacceptable behaviour. You are indeed damaging the reputation of opensuse, whether you like to hear it or not, and as a so-called expert you should know better and/or you should be able to learn and change your behaviour. I fully agree with you that silly questions are being asked on opensuse. But I completely disagree with you when it comes to handling those "silly" emails. Your replies were counterproductive and made the situation even worse. Anyway, this thread is not about you, it's about a code of conduct. You are unfortunately a perfect example why these so-called rules and codes of <whatever> are empty words. In a nutshell, I am not in favour of this code of conduct, and I think I made my point clear. Th. PS. And Druid, don't try to provoke again with statements like "Thanks for your input, hope you are feeling better now, if you feel like being the judge, I dont mind sincerely.". This doesn't work with me, you know, it just shows your arrogant behaviour and that you are not able to respect and tolerate other opinions. I have never mentioned any names, but obviously you found a shoe that fits perfectly (old German saying). --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org