[opensuse-project] Henne Vogelsang the Troll
Hi all, I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges. Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things. If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today. My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal. It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly. There is no information on openSUSE's website that lists who's who, as far as who's managing email lists. I saw Henne wrote the rule set for the opensuse@opensuse.org wiki, yet it never mentioned forbidden language; it's also very poorly written. Is Henne the sole totalitarian controller of the wiki, rules, gatekeeper, etc.? Something else I found interesting is that Henne is a total hypocrite, as I found this on his website: "I’m chewing on something for a couple of weeks now and I think I need to tell you before my jaw turns into dust. It’s about the openSUSE Project and what’s happening with it. I’m heavily involved in the project. Since over 10 years I get paid by my employer to work in that project and I spend a lot of my spare time on it. It’s a huge part of my life, both personal and professional and I love it! I love the people, I love how the project is set up and I love all the cool results we produce together. But since a couple of weeks, I couldn’t really pin down if there was a single cause, what it was or when, I was in misery about it. It’s only yesterday that while talking to a fellow openSUSE Board member that I realized what really causes my grief. All of the sudden this project went from “Hey dude, let’s do cool things together” to “I have this and that opinion and I’m going to stick it to you!”. The whole project went from collaboration to politics in a blink. Now I’m sure all of you tin foil hat wearing people out there will start to spin this as result of some single event, whatever fits your agenda best, but I assure you it’s not. Sometime in the last couple of weeks this tipped over and we started to have discussions about all aspects of the theory of politics, we argue about human rights or quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, people put up motions for the powers that be, the structure and people are questioned to the last extent, alliances are forged, opportunities are seized to get even and a lot of distrust is spreading around. And there are two answers so far I have heard. One is that people say that this is normal. Because we as open source project always ask for equal rights, democracy and all these other crazy liberal ideas and that now we reap what we sow: politics. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don’t be a crybaby now, bitch! The other answer I see to this from the members of our project is to be passive. YAWN politics… I want to code, draw, write, fix, test. Politics are none of my interests and I don’t want to get involved. You idiots can fight this out, I just work on my stuff while you’re doing that. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don’t look at me, not interested! Both are equally destructive and neglect the reason all of us are here. We are here for one thing: FUN! Yes, remember please why you have come to the openSUSE Project. Because it’s fun to use the software for any purpose you want. Because it’s great to study how the software works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Because it’s cool to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Because it’s a great feeling to give the whole community a chance to benefit from your work. You know what’s wrong with us? We have forgot to Have a lot of fun! Can all of you who love openSUSE please go to a console, open an xterm, gnome-terminal or a konsole, do a cat /etc/motd and think about the output for a while? Then pull yourself together and stop doing what is robbing ALL OF US of the reason we are here! If you want to push through your agenda, don’t! If you want to stick it to the man, don’t! If you want to insist on all of your given rights, don’t! If you want to be pigheaded, don’t. If you want to be serious, don’t! Instead, remember to Have a lot of fun!" No only is the entire post a total troll post where he calls people bitches and idiots, but the entire post is written in a disgusting "I'm better and smarter than you attitude" and "I'm too smart and good to get into politics because I'm so special". I also found comments apparently from people Henne used to work with and they were disgruntled about his attitude, and you can find those on his blog. I obviously am concerned with the openSUSE project which is why I want to bring attention to this issue; Henne is not my boss, nor does he get to dictate what I say. Threatening to kill somebody on an email list is grounds for removal, but cuss words or tongue in cheek remarks aren't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
And yet you've set great flame material to start a mini-war, instead of working it out personally with the person you have a grudge against. Also, I guess the complaint could be sent to the openSUSE board, since one of their agendas is 'resolving conflicts'. I simply don't see this e-mail at all constructive. Now, in Henne's defence; In my case, he's always been more than helpful. Even when we came to a point where he should just reasonably say rtfm and check out :) And as I understand his mail, it's: don't just whine, do something, and the other half, don't just be techno-centrist unaware robots, and think why you're doing what you're doing. There should be a middle ground. And I get it now, after some time in the green camp; To do proper evangelizing, I need a more slick looking website, which I don't know how to produce, so I can fill it up with content. People who should be doing the website are understaffed, so they can't just produce it like it's nothing, and on my part, i need more people to make the content have more dimensions. And then there's a bunch of vocal individuals who are certain the website, the news, everything should be exactly as they imagined it, but that's pretty much what they do. Write a post, and leave. I mean, it's very complicated from where I stand, let alone when it comes to the really difficult part - the technical execution of the distro. What I mean to say is, one thing that I've learned is that I'm (and everyone else is) welcome to contribute to the project the way they see fit, and according to their expertise. What you can't expect is to put too much responsibility into other people's hands, but there's quite enough of guidance and hand-holding. Anyway, please, don't make a total war out of this :) Have a lot of fun ;) --- Nenad Latinović holden87@opensuse.org On 05.04.2015 15:25, Sam M. wrote:
Hi all,
I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges. Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things. If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today. My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal.
It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly. There is no information on openSUSE's website that lists who's who, as far as who's managing email lists. I saw Henne wrote the rule set for the opensuse@opensuse.org wiki, yet it never mentioned forbidden language; it's also very poorly written. Is Henne the sole totalitarian controller of the wiki, rules, gatekeeper, etc.?
Something else I found interesting is that Henne is a total hypocrite, as I found this on his website:
"I'm chewing on something for a couple of weeks now and I think I need to tell you before my jaw turns into dust. It's about the openSUSE Project and what's happening with it. I'm heavily involved in the project. Since over 10 years I get paid by my employer to work in that project and I spend a lot of my spare time on it. It's a huge part of my life, both personal and professional and I love it! I love the people, I love how the project is set up and I love all the cool results we produce together. But since a couple of weeks, I couldn't really pin down if there was a single cause, what it was or when, I was in misery about it. It's only yesterday that while talking to a fellow openSUSE Board member that I realized what really causes my grief. All of the sudden this project went from "Hey dude, let's do cool things together" to "I have this and that opinion and I'm going to stick it to you!". The whole project went from collaboration to politics in a blink. Now I'm sure all of you tin foil hat wearing people out there will start to spin this as result of some single event, whatever fits your agenda best, but I assure you it's not. Sometime in the last couple of weeks this tipped over and we started to have discussions about all aspects of the theory of politics, we argue about human rights or quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, people put up motions for the powers that be, the structure and people are questioned to the last extent, alliances are forged, opportunities are seized to get even and a lot of distrust is spreading around.
And there are two answers so far I have heard. One is that people say that this is normal. Because we as open source project always ask for equal rights, democracy and all these other crazy liberal ideas and that now we reap what we sow: politics. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't be a crybaby now, bitch!
The other answer I see to this from the members of our project is to be passive. YAWN politics... I want to code, draw, write, fix, test. Politics are none of my interests and I don't want to get involved. You idiots can fight this out, I just work on my stuff while you're doing that. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't look at me, not interested!
Both are equally destructive and neglect the reason all of us are here. We are here for one thing: FUN! Yes, remember please why you have come to the openSUSE Project. Because it's fun to use the software for any purpose you want. Because it's great to study how the software works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Because it's cool to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Because it's a great feeling to give the whole community a chance to benefit from your work. You know what's wrong with us? We have forgot to Have a lot of fun!
Can all of you who love openSUSE please go to a console, open an xterm, gnome-terminal or a konsole, do a cat /etc/motd and think about the output for a while?
Then pull yourself together and stop doing what is robbing ALL OF US of the reason we are here! If you want to push through your agenda, don't! If you want to stick it to the man, don't! If you want to insist on all of your given rights, don't! If you want to be pigheaded, don't. If you want to be serious, don't!
Instead, remember to Have a lot of fun!"
No only is the entire post a total troll post where he calls people bitches and idiots, but the entire post is written in a disgusting "I'm better and smarter than you attitude" and "I'm too smart and good to get into politics because I'm so special".
I also found comments apparently from people Henne used to work with and they were disgruntled about his attitude, and you can find those on his blog. I obviously am concerned with the openSUSE project which is why I want to bring attention to this issue; Henne is not my boss, nor does he get to dictate what I say. Threatening to kill somebody on an email list is grounds for removal, but cuss words or tongue in cheek remarks aren't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my emails, sends me rude messages, and blocks people from posting to the list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who supports that in an open source project is a moron. I didn't find your email constructive either. Please tell me, what's it even about? It mostly looks like a bunch of non-sequitur ramblings about how open source projects are understaffed and something about your website. I read it a few times and it still doesn't make much sense. FOSS has been understaffed since the idea was invented; tell us something we don't know. There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info. What you do is on the main site, you put a "contact us" link and list everybody involved in the project. People have a right to know who's managing the packages that's being installed on their PC without going to great lengths in crawling through the wiki for old and broken info, or Googling things. If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures: https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/ The main openSUSE website is one big kludge, and trying to find anything in the wiki is pointless unless you Google what you're looking for. openSUSE's fragmentation really is disappointing and something needs to be done about it. On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Nenad Latinović <holden87@opensuse.org> wrote:
And yet you've set great flame material to start a mini-war, instead of working it out personally with the person you have a grudge against. Also, I guess the complaint could be sent to the openSUSE board, since one of their agendas is 'resolving conflicts'. I simply don't see this e-mail at all constructive.
Now, in Henne's defence; In my case, he's always been more than helpful. Even when we came to a point where he should just reasonably say rtfm and check out :) And as I understand his mail, it's: don't just whine, do something, and the other half, don't just be techno-centrist unaware robots, and think why you're doing what you're doing. There should be a middle ground. And I get it now, after some time in the green camp; To do proper evangelizing, I need a more slick looking website, which I don't know how to produce, so I can fill it up with content. People who should be doing the website are understaffed, so they can't just produce it like it's nothing, and on my part, i need more people to make the content have more dimensions. And then there's a bunch of vocal individuals who are certain the website, the news, everything should be exactly as they imagined it, but that's pretty much what they do. Write a post, and leave. I mean, it's very complicated from where I stand, let alone when it comes to the really difficult part - the technical execution of the distro.
What I mean to say is, one thing that I've learned is that I'm (and everyone else is) welcome to contribute to the project the way they see fit, and according to their expertise. What you can't expect is to put too much responsibility into other people's hands, but there's quite enough of guidance and hand-holding.
Anyway, please, don't make a total war out of this :)
Have a lot of fun ;)
--- Nenad Latinović holden87@opensuse.org
On 05.04.2015 15:25, Sam M. wrote:
Hi all,
I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges. Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things. If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today. My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal.
It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly. There is no information on openSUSE's website that lists who's who, as far as who's managing email lists. I saw Henne wrote the rule set for the opensuse@opensuse.org wiki, yet it never mentioned forbidden language; it's also very poorly written. Is Henne the sole totalitarian controller of the wiki, rules, gatekeeper, etc.?
Something else I found interesting is that Henne is a total hypocrite, as I found this on his website:
"I'm chewing on something for a couple of weeks now and I think I need to tell you before my jaw turns into dust. It's about the openSUSE Project and what's happening with it. I'm heavily involved in the project. Since over 10 years I get paid by my employer to work in that project and I spend a lot of my spare time on it. It's a huge part of my life, both personal and professional and I love it! I love the people, I love how the project is set up and I love all the cool results we produce together. But since a couple of weeks, I couldn't really pin down if there was a single cause, what it was or when, I was in misery about it. It's only yesterday that while talking to a fellow openSUSE Board member that I realized what really causes my grief. All of the sudden this project went from "Hey dude, let's do cool things together" to "I have this and that opinion and I'm going to stick it to you!". The whole project went from collaboration to politics in a blink. Now I'm sure all of you tin foil hat wearing people out there will start to spin this as result of some single event, whatever fits your agenda best, but I assure you it's not. Sometime in the last couple of weeks this tipped over and we started to have discussions about all aspects of the theory of politics, we argue about human rights or quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, people put up motions for the powers that be, the structure and people are questioned to the last extent, alliances are forged, opportunities are seized to get even and a lot of distrust is spreading around.
And there are two answers so far I have heard. One is that people say that this is normal. Because we as open source project always ask for equal rights, democracy and all these other crazy liberal ideas and that now we reap what we sow: politics. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't be a crybaby now, bitch!
The other answer I see to this from the members of our project is to be passive. YAWN politics... I want to code, draw, write, fix, test.
Politics are none of my interests and I don't want to get involved. You idiots can fight this out, I just work on my stuff while you're doing that. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't look at me, not interested!
Both are equally destructive and neglect the reason all of us are here. We are here for one thing: FUN! Yes, remember please why you have come to the openSUSE Project. Because it's fun to use the software for any purpose you want. Because it's great to study how the software works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Because it's cool to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Because it's a great feeling to give the whole community a chance to benefit from your work. You know what's wrong with us? We have forgot to Have a lot of fun!
Can all of you who love openSUSE please go to a console, open an xterm, gnome-terminal or a konsole, do a cat /etc/motd and think about the output for a while?
Then pull yourself together and stop doing what is robbing ALL OF US of the reason we are here! If you want to push through your agenda, don't! If you want to stick it to the man, don't! If you want to insist on all of your given rights, don't! If you want to be pigheaded, don't. If you want to be serious, don't!
Instead, remember to Have a lot of fun!"
No only is the entire post a total troll post where he calls people bitches and idiots, but the entire post is written in a disgusting "I'm better and smarter than you attitude" and "I'm too smart and good to get into politics because I'm so special".
I also found comments apparently from people Henne used to work with and they were disgruntled about his attitude, and you can find those on his blog. I obviously am concerned with the openSUSE project which is why I want to bring attention to this issue; Henne is not my boss, nor does he get to dictate what I say. Threatening to kill somebody on an email list is grounds for removal, but cuss words or tongue in cheek remarks aren't.
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Lo and behold. https://en.opensuse.org/Board As for the rest, you have an issue, and it's clearly not me, so after your response, I'm checking out. I won't respond to your mails anymore, no matter how well intended my responses may be. Kind regards and all the best, The non-sequitur rambler, --- Nenad Latinović holden87@opensuse.org On 05.04.2015 17:42, Sam M. wrote:
How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my emails, sends me rude messages, and blocks people from posting to the list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who supports that in an open source project is a moron. I didn't find your email constructive either. Please tell me, what's it even about? It mostly looks like a bunch of non-sequitur ramblings about how open source projects are understaffed and something about your website. I read it a few times and it still doesn't make much sense. FOSS has been understaffed since the idea was invented; tell us something we don't know.
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info. What you do is on the main site, you put a "contact us" link and list everybody involved in the project. People have a right to know who's managing the packages that's being installed on their PC without going to great lengths in crawling through the wiki for old and broken info, or Googling things. If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ [1] https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ [2] https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/ [3]
The main openSUSE website is one big kludge, and trying to find anything in the wiki is pointless unless you Google what you're looking for. openSUSE's fragmentation really is disappointing and something needs to be done about it.
On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Nenad Latinović <holden87@opensuse.org> wrote: And yet you've set great flame material to start a mini-war, instead of working it out personally with the person you have a grudge against. Also, I guess the complaint could be sent to the openSUSE board, since one of their agendas is 'resolving conflicts'. I simply don't see this e-mail at all constructive. Now, in Henne's defence; In my case, he's always been more than helpful. Even when we came to a point where he should just reasonably say rtfm and check out :) And as I understand his mail, it's: don't just whine, do something, and the other half, don't just be techno-centrist unaware robots, and think why you're doing what you're doing. There should be a middle ground. And I get it now, after some time in the green camp; To do proper evangelizing, I need a more slick looking website, which I don't know how to produce, so I can fill it up with content. People who should be doing the website are understaffed, so they can't just produce it like it's nothing, and on my part, i need more people to make the content have more dimensions. And then there's a bunch of vocal individuals who are certain the website, the news, everything should be exactly as they imagined it, but that's pretty much what they do. Write a post, and leave. I mean, it's very complicated from where I stand, let alone when it comes to the really difficult part - the technical execution of the distro. What I mean to say is, one thing that I've learned is that I'm (and everyone else is) welcome to contribute to the project the way they see fit, and according to their expertise. What you can't expect is to put too much responsibility into other people's hands, but there's quite enough of guidance and hand-holding. Anyway, please, don't make a total war out of this :) Have a lot of fun ;) --- Nenad Latinović holden87@opensuse.org On 05.04.2015 15:25, Sam M. wrote: Hi all, I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges. Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things. If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today. My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal. It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly. There is no information on openSUSE's website that lists who's who, as far as who's managing email lists. I saw Henne wrote the rule set for the opensuse@opensuse.org wiki, yet it never mentioned forbidden language; it's also very poorly written. Is Henne the sole totalitarian controller of the wiki, rules, gatekeeper, etc.? Something else I found interesting is that Henne is a total hypocrite, as I found this on his website: "I'm chewing on something for a couple of weeks now and I think I need to tell you before my jaw turns into dust. It's about the openSUSE Project and what's happening with it. I'm heavily involved in the project. Since over 10 years I get paid by my employer to work in that project and I spend a lot of my spare time on it. It's a huge part of my life, both personal and professional and I love it! I love the people, I love how the project is set up and I love all the cool results we produce together. But since a couple of weeks, I couldn't really pin down if there was a single cause, what it was or when, I was in misery about it. It's only yesterday that while talking to a fellow openSUSE Board member that I realized what really causes my grief. All of the sudden this project went from "Hey dude, let's do cool things together" to "I have this and that opinion and I'm going to stick it to you!". The whole project went from collaboration to politics in a blink. Now I'm sure all of you tin foil hat wearing people out there will start to spin this as result of some single event, whatever fits your agenda best, but I assure you it's not. Sometime in the last couple of weeks this tipped over and we started to have discussions about all aspects of the theory of politics, we argue about human rights or quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, people put up motions for the powers that be, the structure and people are questioned to the last extent, alliances are forged, opportunities are seized to get even and a lot of distrust is spreading around. And there are two answers so far I have heard. One is that people say that this is normal. Because we as open source project always ask for equal rights, democracy and all these other crazy liberal ideas and that now we reap what we sow: politics. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't be a crybaby now, bitch! The other answer I see to this from the members of our project is to be passive. YAWN politics... I want to code, draw, write, fix, test. Politics are none of my interests and I don't want to get involved. You idiots can fight this out, I just work on my stuff while you're doing that. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't look at me, not interested! Both are equally destructive and neglect the reason all of us are here. We are here for one thing: FUN! Yes, remember please why you have come to the openSUSE Project. Because it's fun to use the software for any purpose you want. Because it's great to study how the software works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Because it's cool to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Because it's a great feeling to give the whole community a chance to benefit from your work. You know what's wrong with us? We have forgot to Have a lot of fun! Can all of you who love openSUSE please go to a console, open an xterm, gnome-terminal or a konsole, do a cat /etc/motd and think about the output for a while? Then pull yourself together and stop doing what is robbing ALL OF US of the reason we are here! If you want to push through your agenda, don't! If you want to stick it to the man, don't! If you want to insist on all of your given rights, don't! If you want to be pigheaded, don't. If you want to be serious, don't! Instead, remember to Have a lot of fun!" No only is the entire post a total troll post where he calls people bitches and idiots, but the entire post is written in a disgusting "I'm better and smarter than you attitude" and "I'm too smart and good to get into politics because I'm so special". I also found comments apparently from people Henne used to work with and they were disgruntled about his attitude, and you can find those on his blog. I obviously am concerned with the openSUSE project which is why I want to bring attention to this issue; Henne is not my boss, nor does he get to dictate what I say. Threatening to kill somebody on an email list is grounds for removal, but cuss words or tongue in cheek remarks aren't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Links: ------ [1] https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ [2] https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ [3] https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Dne 5.4.2015 v 17:42 Sam M. napsal(a):
How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my emails, sends me rude messages, and blocks people from posting to the list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who supports that in an open source project is a moron. I didn't find your email constructive either. Please tell me, what's it even about? It mostly looks like a bunch of non-sequitur ramblings about how open source projects are understaffed and something about your website. I read it a few times and it still doesn't make much sense. FOSS has been understaffed since the idea was invented; tell us something we don't know.
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. Really? https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board
Regards Martin Pluskal
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 04/05/2015 11:42 AM, Sam M. wrote:
How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my emails, sends me rude messages,
As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it is necessary to attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a response in kind or no response at all.
and blocks people from posting to the list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who supports that in an open source project is a moron.
Insulting the whole project is not really going to win you much sympathy. We try to be kind to each other, see the openSUSE Project Guiding Principles https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles While bikeshedding and flame wars cannot always be avoided we try very hard not to let these things get out of hand. Calling people names is at best immature behavior and definitely goes against the spirit of the openSUSE Guiding Principles. Personal attacks via name calling has no place on the openSUSE mailing lists. It is not censorship. These are the guidelines we as the openSUSE community have agreed to abide by. No one is forced to participate in the project. However, those that do are expected to follow the guidelines we as a project have established. If people choose not to abide by those guidelines it is our option to remove those people from the mailing lists. Oh, and before I forget we also have some guidelines about response style for the mailing lists: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette Generally top posting is discouraged.
I didn't find your email constructive either. Please tell me, what's it even about? It mostly looks like a bunch of non-sequitur ramblings about how open source projects are understaffed and something about your website. I read it a few times and it still doesn't make much sense. FOSS has been understaffed since the idea was invented; tell us something we don't know.
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info. What you do is on the main site, you put a "contact us" link and list everybody involved in the project.
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am not certain that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be helpful.
People have a right to know who's managing the packages that's being installed on their PC without going to great lengths in crawling through the wiki for old and broken info, or Googling things.
I agree, people do have the right to know who maintains the packages. However, we as a project get to choose how this information is made available. Our tool to build the distribution is the openSUSE Build service (build.opensuse.org) and within it all the information about every package that is part of the distribution and any package that is being built with the build service is available. For openSUSE 13.2 you can for example find everything here: https://build.opensuse.org/project/show/openSUSE:13.2
If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/
That's nicely done.
The main openSUSE website is one big kludge,
We are well aware that the website needs TLC, and you are welcome to contribute. The website is maintained on GitHub (https://github.com/openSUSE/www.o.o) and pull requests will be evaluated. There is currently work going on to improve the web site.
and trying to find anything in the wiki is pointless unless you Google what you're looking for.
Yes, we also know that the wiki search needs TLC, and again helping hands are much appreciated.
openSUSE's fragmentation really is disappointing and something needs to be done about it.
Feel free to jump right in and help out.
<snip>
On 05.04.2015 15:25, Sam M. wrote:
Hi all,
I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges.
Sorry, this is incorrect. This is an e-mail list of the openSUSE project that falls within the openSUSE Guiding Principals, see link above. Therefore people posting are not free to insult each other as this goes against our guiding principles.
Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things.
That may be correct. This does not imply however, that every open source project has to tolerate everything. We as the openSUSE community have chose to actively discourage such behavior on all of our mailing lists. This is not to say that it doesn't happen every now and then. However, when it does happen there are those of us who try to calm the waters and remind people why we are here. We are here to collaborate. Insulting each other is generally not conducive to collaboration.
If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today.
Strong criticism and personal insults are two different things. Providing feedback about someone's contribution can be strong but that does not mean it has to be negative nor should it take on a personal direction.
My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal.
It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly.
Sorry you are barking up the wrong tree. The openSUSE project is independently governed. SUSE is our primary sponsor and we are certainly very great full for the support we receive from SUSE. However, when it comes to governance the project is independent. And we do have a procedure. The escalation path leads to the openSUSE Board, as others in this thread have already pointed out. However, I can tell you that you will not receive much sympathy with your approach. And before you resort to more name calling, let me just say, doing so will not improve the situation. Last but not least, for the record. Henne Vogelsang is NOT a troll. Henne is a well respected contributor to and member of the openSUSE project. Regrads, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJVIah7AAoJEE4FgL32d2Ukpv0H+LpMfp1ITjkJRunpLruw9ICf PLUWwPs28nffMa9238jm8D3BT0nUhXcRICL1p+MRRhRhDNMNlv8zt6ZHuj9nvjbu 02cj9n2G8jxOErKQO70IVc2nQqU/LDy1Jbi3rIdeUM6GSpJMhAfzvIUEEMOVYzCo t+2WDSSaJDuUTKKMAQRwTF4vqR8IZnnO5PzZny8yoyedOn4/UhUFMdvoAi2k8bcY Us/hbqmCbkv7z7zDvUcnCPmcDaUC8JWIoLKyszRIKjJ7FJuGCzv+m+mj9NU27hhl 8pamkliB3mSwmYCchqhE5EZ78b3vv+rFsIcG0ntOJnHyLJZIRINEIOCaYz9H1g== =jCJR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Robert Schweikert composed on 2015-04-05 17:26 (UTC-0400):
On 04/05/2015 07:42 -0700 Sam M. wrote: ...
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE
What secret? https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Board ...
page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info. What you do is on the main site, you put a "contact us" link and list everybody involved in the project.
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am not certain that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be helpful.
Contact info for participants whether board members or other contributors is available in most cases for those who need it enough to bother looking for it: e.g. https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/hennevogel https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/rjschwei https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/RBrownCCB https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/-miska- https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/warlordfff https://connect.opensuse.org/pg/profile/mrmazda
It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly.
often repeated on the lists: admin@opensuse.org for general issues <listname>+owner@opensuse.org or <listname>+help@opensuse.org for issues specific about a specific list Both the latter are in every message's headers. ...
Last but not least, for the record. Henne Vogelsang is NOT a troll. Henne is a well respected contributor to and member of the openSUSE project.
+1 Picking and choosing is any moderator's job. It doesn't generate much in the way of open appreciation, but assuredly is appreciated by those enjoying the valuable benefit it can and does provide where needed. Moderating here seems to be yet another volunteer position. Absent other volunteers, Henne's what we have whether you like it or not. If you don't like the job Henne's doing, feel free to contribute a better resource. If you don't like that Henne moderates what you write, the bigger problem is most likely what you write. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-04-05 23:26, Robert Schweikert wrote:
Hi,
On 04/05/2015 11:42 AM, Sam M. wrote:
How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my emails, sends me rude messages,
As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it is necessary to attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a response in kind or no response at all.
and blocks people from posting to the list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who supports that in an open source project is a moron.
Insulting the whole project is not really going to win you much sympathy. We try to be kind to each other, see the openSUSE Project Guiding Principles
Indeed. It is possible, though, that he is hitting an automatic spam filter, and thus he is unable to post. And he takes this as an insult. I know that some of our lists had to implement, for some time at least, an insult filter. Our lists are not moderated (by a human), in the sense that nobody is reading all email before publishing. If it were, his post on this list starting this thread would not have been allowed, which proves that Henne is not what he claims. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlUiepQACgkQja8UbcUWM1xF+AD+P2KE0Mnpo5tzSWygwcyRt55e Z3PMSy3AZ+i1RxNpHHsBAJjUeVfB8sSh/f6iQTna5akdlFWGc8fpMbWAxB5X666B =4IYV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it is necessary to attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a response in kind or no response at all.
I never said I "feel it is necessary to attack people and to be rude". I'm not even sure where you got that from. The thing is that you already took a vehement bias against me because you are buddy buddy with Henne, so it's certainly not surprising getting this long and defensive email that you've written. The point is that clamping down on email exchanges because some thin-skinned people get offended easily if they're critiqued doesn't help the project, it only hurts it. It makes people look for other projects where you aren't backed into a corner out of fear of not pleasing somebody or saying the wrong thing. And this is an email list, not a forum; two vastly different things that should be managed differently.
Insulting the whole project is not really going to win you much sympathy. We try to be kind to each other, see the openSUSE Project Guiding Principles
I'm not insulting the entire project. You took what I said as an insult. There's a difference. I'm not trying to win sympathy, so I'm not sure where that statement comes from. I wrote my original email here because of Henne's trollish tactics and because he never responded to me as to why my emails were being blocked. It wasn't to gain sympathy.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles
While bikeshedding and flame wars cannot always be avoided we try very hard not to let these things get out of hand. Calling people names is at best immature behavior and definitely goes against the spirit of the openSUSE Guiding Principles. Personal attacks via name calling has no place on the openSUSE mailing lists.
It is not censorship. These are the guidelines we as the openSUSE community have agreed to abide by. No one is forced to participate in the project. However, those that do are expected to follow the guidelines we as a project have established. If people choose not to abide by those guidelines it is our option to remove those people from the mailing lists.
Oh, and before I forget we also have some guidelines about response style for the mailing lists:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette
Generally top posting is discouraged.
Gmail does top posting by default and it can't be shut off. In the future I plan on using a better method (email client) Sorry.
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am not certain that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be helpful.
I'm not saying to put all 300 contributors' info on the page. What I'm saying is to make the contact info readily available and easy to access. "Contact Us" at the bottom of the main page is what's needed -- not forcing somebody to navigate through the entire mess of different openSUSE fragmented social networks, wikis, and other out-of-date pages. One person in this thread already agreed with me that this is an issue, and there's obviously a silent majority here that doesn't speak English very well or doesn't want to get involved in the exchange. There is an issue here, but the openSUSE way seems to be to just sweep it under the rug and let it go another 5 years without actually doing something about it.
I agree, people do have the right to know who maintains the packages. However, we as a project get to choose how this information is made available. Our tool to build the distribution is the openSUSE Build service (build.opensuse.org) and within it all the information about every package that is part of the distribution and any package that is being built with the build service is available.
For openSUSE 13.2 you can for example find everything here:
Then that policy needs to be changed. If you are in a position where other people are relying on packages that you maintain or on software that you are patching and/or creating, then your information needs to be public. Period. Right now the fragmented openSUSE project is more concerned with micromanaging the email list, which, by the way, isn't all that busy to begin with. Sour grapes? Also, I could just CC all the people I want to contact and communicate that way if I wanted to. The fact that the final message ends up in somebody's email box gives them the choice to block a particular person, or not read and delete. With the small amount of people that post to the openSUSE email list, the last thing you want to do right now is enforce policies that appease people with thin skin. You could argue that heavy moderation is necessary because of the small amount of people posting, but I obviously will disagree here.
We are well aware that the website needs TLC, and you are welcome to contribute. The website is maintained on GitHub (https://github.com/openSUSE/www.o.o) and pull requests will be evaluated. There is currently work going on to improve the web site.
Good to hear.
Yes, we also know that the wiki search needs TLC, and again helping hands are much appreciated.
The wiki needs updating now, not tomorrow. The fact that the wiki and website is in the state that its in which any halfway intelligent person knows drives users away right away, shows that there are obvious political problems way up top. And this includes you, Robert. You should be getting a handle on the wiki and website, and organizing a plan on how to make it better. It's hard for people like me to make any recommendations when I'm blocked from posting because of a thin-skinned troll, and finding any relevant info on openSUSE's website is a chore. People need to be able to find who's who and what's what easily and immediately, without being caught up in a silly acid trip vortex of stupidly placed links. The whole point is that criticism is what leads to action, and me and you disagree on where the demarcation point is in terms of what's rude, what's a personal attack, and what isn't. And that's perfectly fine.
That may be correct. This does not imply however, that every open source project has to tolerate everything. We as the openSUSE community have chose to actively discourage such behavior on all of our mailing lists. This is not to say that it doesn't happen every now and then. However, when it does happen there are those of us who try to calm the waters and remind people why we are here. We are here to collaborate. Insulting each other is generally not conducive to collaboration.
Micromanaging the email list is a bad idea. People will come back under a different email address, or leave and then put openSUSE down when they speak of it in whatever other project they may get involved in. There are some funny email addresses (anonymous posters) that people are using like "toothpik6" and others. The point is to not make people feel the need to go into hiding, which is completely against everything I wrote above. You don't win OS market share by means of micromanagement. Repugnant insults and repeated threats or extreme disruptions, I agree, are grounds for removing somebody off the list. But a tongue-in-cheek statement or a seemingly rude statement shouldn't be. There are so many different cultures, languages, people coming from different religious backgrounds, etc., that no matter what, someone is always going to get offended. Then they can exploit openSUSE's email list micromanagement policies and stifle open communication which equates to censorship. Sometimes when people are rude they are expressing their dismay at somebody else's shortsightedness or lack of empathy and I see nothing wrong with it; sometimes people need a wake up call.
Strong criticism and personal insults are two different things. Providing feedback about someone's contribution can be strong but that does not mean it has to be negative nor should it take on a personal direction.
"Personal direction" is subjective. It goes back to the aforementioned, where someone is always going to get offended about something. http://i.imgur.com/EX5v4.jpg
Last but not least, for the record. Henne Vogelsang is NOT a troll. Henne is a well respected contributor to and member of the openSUSE project.
He seems like a troll to me, based on his behavior and trollish posts he writes on his blog where he calls people idiots and bitches, and writes posts with titles with the F word in them. I dare not write the actual F word here because my email may get blocked. Apparently that's okay, but me saying "ass" isn't. I also noticed on Henne's website someone wrote this comment: "So, Henne, if i am reading this right… Every time you kicked my ass, that was because: a) you were insecure whether you were entitled to decide something (besides kicking my ass)? b) you were insecure whether your idea would be liked? c) you were just generally insecure? I always knew it, you kicked my ass, not because that was in your jobdescription as a teamlead, but because you were insecure :p I always knew that behind that rough exterior was a small insecure boy waiting to come out :ppp" That makes me wonder how many other people have or had problems working with Henne and haven't said something yet, or have and haven't been heard. It's interesting to me that out of the paltry amount of people that comment on his boring and poorly written reads, the above quoted comment was even written. Since the openSUSE project is fairly small (always not enough heads, not enough bug testing, not enough contributors, etc.), it's interesting how that comment came out of the woodwork. The point is that with the small amount of people that he's working with, it sounds like Henne has some skeletons in his closet that he's hiding from the community.
Indeed.
It is possible, though, that he is hitting an automatic spam filter, and thus he is unable to post. And he takes this as an insult. I know that some of our lists had to implement, for some time at least, an insult filter. Our lists are not moderated (by a human), in the sense that nobody is reading all email before publishing.
If it were, his post on this list starting this thread would not have been allowed, which proves that Henne is not what he claims.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
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I'm not hitting any automatic spam filter. I wrote a post about btrfs about 48~ hours ago and got an "awaiting moderation" message. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-04-06 16:07, Sam M. wrote:
I'm not hitting any automatic spam filter. I wrote a post about btrfs about 48~ hours ago and got an "awaiting moderation" message.
That's because you are not subscribed. An automatic response. The lists were modified recently to again require subscription in order to post. This change had to be implemented because of the amount of spam. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlUilRoACgkQja8UbcUWM1ySuwD/UQ0TLgYu/kdZrQXE9qTLdcMI r2P5WNDbE6OYqCPCNt4BAJqxuVeZyHS8Y4WEQ44ULRIfi8ye9KdFO/5khgbpDxF6 =/qe8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the <opensuse@opensuse.org> mailing list. You were unable to be subscribed to the list because you are already subscribed. On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 7:15 AM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
On 2015-04-06 16:07, Sam M. wrote:
I'm not hitting any automatic spam filter. I wrote a post about btrfs about 48~ hours ago and got an "awaiting moderation" message.
That's because you are not subscribed. An automatic response. The lists were modified recently to again require subscription in order to post. This change had to be implemented because of the amount of spam.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iF4EAREIAAYFAlUilRoACgkQja8UbcUWM1ySuwD/UQ0TLgYu/kdZrQXE9qTLdcMI r2P5WNDbE6OYqCPCNt4BAJqxuVeZyHS8Y4WEQ44ULRIfi8ye9KdFO/5khgbpDxF6 =/qe8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Montag, 6. April 2015 schrieb Sam M.:
Hi, this is the Mlmmj program managing the <opensuse@opensuse.org> mailing list.
You were unable to be subscribed to the list because you are already subscribed.
Wrong mailinglist - this is opensuse-project@, not opensuse@ ;-) - so please try again with opensuse-project+subscribe@opensuse.org Regards, Christian Boltz -- <cboltz> jjohansen: we can just label it "the can't be more broken than 2.8.3 release" ;-) <jjohansen> cboltz: no, with a name like that murphy is bound to strike [from #apparmor] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On 6 April 2015 at 16:07, Sam M. <backgroundprocess@gmail.com> wrote:
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am not certain that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be helpful.
I'm not saying to put all 300 contributors' info on the page. What I'm saying is to make the contact info readily available and easy to access. "Contact Us" at the bottom of the main page is what's needed -- not forcing somebody to navigate through the entire mess of different openSUSE fragmented social networks, wikis, and other out-of-date pages. One person in this thread already agreed with me that this is an issue, and there's obviously a silent majority here that doesn't speak English very well or doesn't want to get involved in the exchange. There is an issue here, but the openSUSE way seems to be to just sweep it under the rug and let it go another 5 years without actually doing something about it.
The contact email for the mailinglist owner is attached to the bottom of every single email on every single list we operate, and also at the bottom of the page on lists.opensuse.org In this case, you are seeking escalation of an issue. The correct venue for such an escalation is the openSUSE Board The openSUSE Board's contact details are clearly visible on our page, which is linked prominently from the Projects main page on the Wiki. I don't think board@opensuse.org needs to be made too much more prominent than that.. 'Contact Us' on the homepage would be a step too far, we're not the default contact for every day to day business of the openSUSE Project (note - our Press contact is on the homepage for www.opensuse.org)
Then that policy needs to be changed. If you are in a position where other people are relying on packages that you maintain or on software that you are patching and/or creating, then your information needs to be public. Period. Right now the fragmented openSUSE project is more concerned with micromanaging the email list, which, by the way, isn't all that busy to begin with. Sour grapes? Also, I could just CC all the people I want to contact and communicate that way if I wanted to. The fact that the final message ends up in somebody's email box gives them the choice to block a particular person, or not read and delete. With the small amount of people that post to the openSUSE email list, the last thing you want to do right now is enforce policies that appease people with thin skin. You could argue that heavy moderation is necessary because of the small amount of people posting, but I obviously will disagree here.
I do not understand where this claim of 'fragmentation' comes from. I'm certainly not seeing evidence of that in the increasing pace of Tumbleweed development. I do not see the number of people posting to the opensuse@opensuse.org mailing list as evidence of fragmentation - given it's our English language *support* mailinglist, it's a bit of a relief, and could suggest we haven't got too much broken, or people with problems are finding sufficient support elsewhere.
As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it is necessary to attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a response in kind or no response at all.
I never said I "feel it is necessary to attack people and to be rude". I'm not even sure where you got that from. The thing is that you already took a vehement bias against me because you are buddy buddy with Henne, so it's certainly not surprising getting this long and defensive email that you've written. The point is that clamping down on email exchanges because some thin-skinned people get offended easily if they're critiqued doesn't help the project, it only hurts it. It makes people look for other projects where you aren't backed into a corner out of fear of not pleasing somebody or saying the wrong thing. And this is an email list, not a forum; two vastly different things that should be managed differently.
Henne is a moderator of the opensuse@opensuse.org mailinglist Our mailinglists are moderated to be consistent with our Guiding Principles https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles and Mailing List netiquette https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette If you are concerned about the moderation of opensuse@opensuse.org, or any of the other lists found on http://lists.opensuse.org/ please feel free to escalate your concern to the openSUSE Board at board@opensuse.org I do not feel this is a productive venue to continue the discussion, and would strongly suggest you cease continuing it here. Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Board Chairman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Sam M. wrote:
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+contact+the+opensuse+board "You can reach the board privately via email board@opensuse.org".
If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/
It would be nice to have a clear picture of who does what and who works for whom, etc - I did ask for that a while back: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-12/msg00051.html [snip 166 lines] -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.6°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 06 April 2015 10.11:51 Per Jessen wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+contact+the+opensuse+board
"You can reach the board privately via email board@opensuse.org".
If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/
It would be nice to have a clear picture of who does what and who works for whom, etc - I did ask for that a while back:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-12/msg00051.html
Well doing this one shot is a thing, maintaining it on a long term is just boring administrative jobs. If we failed to find moderator on forums, ml, dirty hands on all we already have, how can this be a bonus and working in long term. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Bruno Friedmann wrote:
On Monday 06 April 2015 10.11:51 Per Jessen wrote:
Sam M. wrote:
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page. It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found one profile page but barely any contact info.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+contact+the+opensuse+board
"You can reach the board privately via email board@opensuse.org".
If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/ https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/
It would be nice to have a clear picture of who does what and who works for whom, etc - I did ask for that a while back:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-12/msg00051.html
Well doing this one shot is a thing, maintaining it on a long term is just boring administrative jobs.
Having one that is out of date would be better than none at all, IMHO. Anyway, I've long tired of that discussion - as you can tell, it was started more than five years ago. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:44:28 +0200, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
If we failed to find moderator on forums
For the forums, at least, you'd have to be trying hard NOT to find a member of staff there. All of our staff members are identified as such in every single post they make on the forums. The forums FAQ page (http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php) also provides a link to the forums team page. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Monday 06 April 2015 21.30:35 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Mon, 06 Apr 2015 11:44:28 +0200, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
If we failed to find moderator on forums
For the forums, at least, you'd have to be trying hard NOT to find a member of staff there. All of our staff members are identified as such in every single post they make on the forums.
The forums FAQ page (http://forums.opensuse.org/faq.php) also provides a link to the forums team page.
Jim
Jim I was talking about finding moderators and helpers for doing the job. Not finding the page where they are.... Otherwise some forums wouldn't have disappear ;-) -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:03:02 +0200, Bruno Friedmann wrote:
Jim I was talking about finding moderators and helpers for doing the job. Not finding the page where they are....
Otherwise some forums wouldn't have disappear ;-)
Ah, yes, I see what you're saying - that certainly is true. :) It's a challenge when you have volunteers who have to handle an entire set of forums because of a language barrier - and I think for some, it's a lot more work than they initially think (dealing with spam, misdirected posts, people who want to argue and fight, and so on). Some of them we'd love to bring back, but we need to know that the people who volunteer to look after them can handle the work and aren't going to vanish on us, as unfortunately happened with a few of the forums of which you speak. We also try to set up partnerships with external forums where there's a thriving user community, and sometimes the right balance is difficult to find. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
Hi all, The Board have investigated this issue, including both the public and private communication between the parties involved are satisfied that Henne's actions as Moderator of our mailinglists were consistent with our projects Guiding Principles and the Boards expectations. Regards, Michal Hrusecky openSUSE Board member -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org
participants (12)
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Bruno Friedmann -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Felix Miata -
Jim Henderson -
Martin Pluskal -
Michal Hrusecky -
Nenad Latinović -
Per Jessen -
Richard Brown -
Robert Schweikert -
Sam M.