How do I work something out with somebody that doesn't respond to my
emails, sends me rude messages, and blocks people from posting to the
list for practically nothing? This is 100% censorship and anybody who
supports that in an open source project is a moron. I didn't find your
email constructive either. Please tell me, what's it even about? It
mostly looks like a bunch of non-sequitur ramblings about how open
source projects are understaffed and something about your website. I
read it a few times and it still doesn't make much sense. FOSS has
been understaffed since the idea was invented; tell us something we
don't know.
There is no contact info for this secret board on the openSUSE page.
It's all very shady; there are no names, profiles, nothing. I found
one profile page but barely any contact info. What you do is on the
main site, you put a "contact us" link and list everybody involved in
the project. People have a right to know who's managing the packages
that's being installed on their PC without going to great lengths in
crawling through the wiki for old and broken info, or Googling things.
If you look at Arch Linux page, all their contact info is right there
with their pictures:
https://www.archlinux.org/people/developers/
https://www.archlinux.org/people/trusted-users/
https://www.archlinux.org/people/support-staff/
The main openSUSE website is one big kludge, and trying to find
anything in the wiki is pointless unless you Google what you're
looking for. openSUSE's fragmentation really is disappointing and
something needs to be done about it.
On Sun, Apr 5, 2015 at 8:03 AM, Nenad Latinović
And yet you've set great flame material to start a mini-war, instead of working it out personally with the person you have a grudge against. Also, I guess the complaint could be sent to the openSUSE board, since one of their agendas is 'resolving conflicts'. I simply don't see this e-mail at all constructive.
Now, in Henne's defence; In my case, he's always been more than helpful. Even when we came to a point where he should just reasonably say rtfm and check out :) And as I understand his mail, it's: don't just whine, do something, and the other half, don't just be techno-centrist unaware robots, and think why you're doing what you're doing. There should be a middle ground. And I get it now, after some time in the green camp; To do proper evangelizing, I need a more slick looking website, which I don't know how to produce, so I can fill it up with content. People who should be doing the website are understaffed, so they can't just produce it like it's nothing, and on my part, i need more people to make the content have more dimensions. And then there's a bunch of vocal individuals who are certain the website, the news, everything should be exactly as they imagined it, but that's pretty much what they do. Write a post, and leave. I mean, it's very complicated from where I stand, let alone when it comes to the really difficult part - the technical execution of the distro.
What I mean to say is, one thing that I've learned is that I'm (and everyone else is) welcome to contribute to the project the way they see fit, and according to their expertise. What you can't expect is to put too much responsibility into other people's hands, but there's quite enough of guidance and hand-holding.
Anyway, please, don't make a total war out of this :)
Have a lot of fun ;)
--- Nenad Latinović holden87@opensuse.org
On 05.04.2015 15:25, Sam M. wrote:
Hi all,
I have a problem with how Henne Vogelsang is moderating the email list. This week I got a rude and infantilizing message from him telling me to "stop insulting users" because I wrote the word "ass" in an email. This is an email list where people should be able to express themselves without fear of insulting others because of slang terms or harsh/brash exchanges. Free software email lists are known for flame wars with all types of different people saying different things. If it weren't for strong criticism or incongruent ways of thinking, free software would be insurmountably different than what it is today. My email never went through, but Henne still took it upon himself to write me an email that told me what to do (he didn't ask), and told me that if I do it again I'm going to have access removed. Obviously Henne is a very insecure person that only sees things in one manner, and leaves no dialogue open. Who the hell gave him complete access to the email list and why? I have to say that he's doing a crappy job managing it, and his socialization skills over the internet are dismal.
It shouldn't be up to Henne to pick and choose what people say and which messages go through and which ones don't. If somebody has a problem, there needs to be a procedure in place which allows people to contact SUSE directly. There is no information on openSUSE's website that lists who's who, as far as who's managing email lists. I saw Henne wrote the rule set for the opensuse@opensuse.org wiki, yet it never mentioned forbidden language; it's also very poorly written. Is Henne the sole totalitarian controller of the wiki, rules, gatekeeper, etc.?
Something else I found interesting is that Henne is a total hypocrite, as I found this on his website:
"I'm chewing on something for a couple of weeks now and I think I need to tell you before my jaw turns into dust. It's about the openSUSE Project and what's happening with it. I'm heavily involved in the project. Since over 10 years I get paid by my employer to work in that project and I spend a lot of my spare time on it. It's a huge part of my life, both personal and professional and I love it! I love the people, I love how the project is set up and I love all the cool results we produce together. But since a couple of weeks, I couldn't really pin down if there was a single cause, what it was or when, I was in misery about it. It's only yesterday that while talking to a fellow openSUSE Board member that I realized what really causes my grief. All of the sudden this project went from "Hey dude, let's do cool things together" to "I have this and that opinion and I'm going to stick it to you!". The whole project went from collaboration to politics in a blink. Now I'm sure all of you tin foil hat wearing people out there will start to spin this as result of some single event, whatever fits your agenda best, but I assure you it's not. Sometime in the last couple of weeks this tipped over and we started to have discussions about all aspects of the theory of politics, we argue about human rights or quotes from Mahatma Gandhi, people put up motions for the powers that be, the structure and people are questioned to the last extent, alliances are forged, opportunities are seized to get even and a lot of distrust is spreading around.
And there are two answers so far I have heard. One is that people say that this is normal. Because we as open source project always ask for equal rights, democracy and all these other crazy liberal ideas and that now we reap what we sow: politics. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't be a crybaby now, bitch!
The other answer I see to this from the members of our project is to be passive. YAWN politics... I want to code, draw, write, fix, test.
Politics are none of my interests and I don't want to get involved. You idiots can fight this out, I just work on my stuff while you're doing that. So however you are involved in this, like me for instance that stood up and took responsibility for nasty things nobody else wants to do, you have asked for this and now got what was coming to you. Don't look at me, not interested!
Both are equally destructive and neglect the reason all of us are here. We are here for one thing: FUN! Yes, remember please why you have come to the openSUSE Project. Because it's fun to use the software for any purpose you want. Because it's great to study how the software works, and change it to make it do what you wish. Because it's cool to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor. Because it's a great feeling to give the whole community a chance to benefit from your work. You know what's wrong with us? We have forgot to Have a lot of fun!
Can all of you who love openSUSE please go to a console, open an xterm, gnome-terminal or a konsole, do a cat /etc/motd and think about the output for a while?
Then pull yourself together and stop doing what is robbing ALL OF US of the reason we are here! If you want to push through your agenda, don't! If you want to stick it to the man, don't! If you want to insist on all of your given rights, don't! If you want to be pigheaded, don't. If you want to be serious, don't!
Instead, remember to Have a lot of fun!"
No only is the entire post a total troll post where he calls people bitches and idiots, but the entire post is written in a disgusting "I'm better and smarter than you attitude" and "I'm too smart and good to get into politics because I'm so special".
I also found comments apparently from people Henne used to work with and they were disgruntled about his attitude, and you can find those on his blog. I obviously am concerned with the openSUSE project which is why I want to bring attention to this issue; Henne is not my boss, nor does he get to dictate what I say. Threatening to kill somebody on an email list is grounds for removal, but cuss words or tongue in cheek remarks aren't.
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