2 Dec
2006
2 Dec
'06
1:10 p.m.
Hi,
Are there any extra measures in place to prevent opensuse.org going down
before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
Regards,
apokryphos.
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2 Dec
2 Dec
3:48 p.m.
On Saturday 02 December 2006 13:10, Francis Giannaros wrote:
Are there any extra measures in place to prevent
opensuse.org going down
before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
What hype? Do you mean rush?
Bye,
Steve
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6:33 p.m.
On 2006-12-02 08:48, Stephan Binner wrote:
On Saturday 02 December 2006 13:10, Francis Giannaros
wrote:
I think he means, are you prepared for a possible DoS ahead of the
release announcement, on account of all the noise that was generated in
response to the deal with The Company From Redmond®.
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Are there any extra measures in place to prevent
opensuse.org going down
before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
What hype? Do you mean rush?
9:40 p.m.
> Are there
any extra measures in place to prevent opensuse.org going
down
before
the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
What hype? Do you mean rush?
4 Dec
4 Dec
3:55 p.m.
On Saturday 02 December 2006 20:40, Anthony Bryan wrote:
p2p is great for this, but we have to remember that
p2p isn't available to
everyone. It's blocked by some universities, businesses, and ISPs. Besides
regular p2p/bittorrent, you can continue using Metalink to spread out the
downloads between mirrors, either removing the listing for the main server
or lowering its priority rating. Metalinks can list mirrors, along with
torrents, ed2k, and magnet links. People can then download from local
servers if they set their location, since the mirrors have location and
priority information.
<url type="ftp"
location="jp"
preference="10">
ftp://ftp.jaist.ac.jp/pub/Linux/openSUSE/distribution/openSUSE-10.2-RC1/iso
/openSUSE-10.2-RC1-i386-CD1.iso </url>
<url type="http"
location="jp"
preference="10">
http://ftp.kddilabs.jp/Linux/packages/opensuse/distribution/openSUSE-10.2-R
C1/iso/openSUSE-10.2-RC1-i386-CD1.iso </url>
The Metalinks for RC1 are available at
http://download.packages.ro/metalink/opensuse/ . Ones for the final release
will be automatically generated once the ISOs are synced to the mirrors.
That seems like a very nice idea; I investigated by downloading a few ISOs and
they maxed out my connection (24mbit, but still).
Are there any plans to advertise these metalinks specifically, at all? I guess
part of the problem would be that people really don't know about the
procedure or applications (despite being so easy to use), unlike torrents.
Still, looks like something very good to explore.
I've only been here for two previous releases, but the site was down both
times and things weren't going so well at all. We get many new users in the
channels asking questions, and while we'd like to give them the links to the
very easy howtos on the wiki, it's not available :/. Try to improvise with
Google cache, most of the time. Not ideal though.
Regards,
Francis.
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4:24 p.m.
On Saturday 02 December 2006 20:40, Anthony Bryan
wrote:
Hi Francis,
Thanks for taking the time to test metalink out. 24 mbit, nice! About 3 MB/sec?
Unfortunately my home cable only gets about a third of that.
I don't know if metalinks will be specifically advertised. They are listed on
http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink, but like you said when the sites down -
it's down (kinda frustrating and). One nice thing about metalink, in these busy
situations you don't have to manually try all sorts of mirrors to see if you can get
through. The clients do that automatically. I always hated that. As I mentioned, it
allowed people to get FC6 during the mad onslaught when it seemed impossible otherwise.
What I was proposing on the list (maybe not explicit enough) was that the site goes into
crisis mode. Only list metalinks and torrents, and rely on p2p/mirrors to distribute the
ISOs. Either stop the main site from ISO downloads, or severely limit it so the site can
stay up. Only list the most important info.
Make sure people can get aria2 or wxDownload Fast easily, have em packaged for a few
versions back of suse. Make it as simple as possible. 1) Install RPM 2) Open terminal and
type 'aria2c URLtoMetalink' 3) Wait
curl and wget are adding support for metalink, but I think someone could whip something up
quick which would allow either of them to use it now. It would just be a quick front end
that reads the XML, and gets a chunk from a few servers, then runs md5sum on it when
done.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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p2p is great for this, but we have to remember
that p2p isn't
available to
everyone. It's blocked by some universities,
businesses, and ISPs.
Besides
regular p2p/bittorrent, you can continue using
Metalink to spread out
the
downloads between mirrors, either removing the
listing for the main
server
or lowering its priority rating. Metalinks can
list mirrors, along
with
torrents, ed2k, and magnet links. People can then
download from local
servers if they set their location, since the mirrors have location
and
priority information.
<url type="ftp"
location="jp"
preference="10">
ftp://ftp.jaist.ac.jp/pub/Linux/openSUSE/distribution/openSUSE-10.2-
RC1/iso
/openSUSE-10.2-RC1-i386-CD1.iso </url>
<url type="http"
location="jp"
preference="10">
http://ftp.kddilabs.jp/Linux/packages/opensuse/distribution/openSUSE-
10.2-R
C1/iso/openSUSE-10.2-RC1-i386-CD1.iso
</url>
The Metalinks for RC1 are available at
http://download.packages.ro/metalink/opensuse/ . Ones for the final
release
will be automatically generated once the ISOs are
synced to the
mirrors.
That seems like a very nice idea; I investigated by downloading a few
ISOs and
they maxed out my connection (24mbit, but still).
Are there any plans to advertise these metalinks specifically, at all?
I guess
part of the problem would be that people really don't know about the
procedure or applications (despite being so easy to use), unlike
torrents.
Still, looks like something very good to explore.
I've only been here for two previous releases, but the site was down
both
times and things weren't going so well at all. We get many new users in
the
channels asking questions, and while we'd like to give them the links
to the
very easy howtos on the wiki, it's not available :/. Try to improvise
with
Google cache, most of the time. Not ideal though. 
7:12 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
opensuse users, read ahead :-) thanks
Anthony Bryan a écrit :
What I was proposing on the list (maybe not explicit
enough) was that the site goes into crisis mode. Only
list metalinks and torrents, and rely on p2p/mirrors to
distribute the ISOs. Either stop the main site from ISO
downloads, or severely limit it so the site can stay up.
Only list the most important info.
to be practical, I propose that you spread this very post. I
already crosspost to opensuse list. Here are the
instruction, feel freee to edit is I made any mistake.
If you have problems joining the opensuse.org site or any
mirror during the first days of the 10.2 release, there is a
solution.
The solution is to use metalink. This utility, in very short
summary, make a balance between all the available ftp
sources and allows you to download from the better one.
as long as the site is available you can look at
http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink
The .metalink file is approximately like a torrent file,
very small and easy to catch.
you need a metalink client, there are many for any system
(for example aria2 or wxDownload).
then look at
ftp://ftp.jaist.ac.jp/pub/Linux/openSUSE/distribution/
with your browser. This ftp is _not_ a opensuse mirror, so
should not be down
test your system with the 10.2 rc1, for example. GM and 10.2
are not yet functional, but will be asap (the dec 7)
enjoy :-)
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6 Dec
6 Dec
4:56 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
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The Monday 2006-12-04 at 19:12 +0100, jdd sur free wrote:
...
The solution is to use metalink. This utility, in very
short summary, make a
balance between all the available ftp sources and allows you to download from
the better one.
as long as the site is available you can look at
http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink
...
you need a metalink client, there are many for any
system (for example aria2
or wxDownload).
A warning: there are three "aria" projects at sourceforge. The "aria"
one
is:
ARIA (Accounting, Receiving and Inventory Administration) is a web
based accounting and inventory management package based off the NOLA
project. ARIA aim's to be platform and browser independent with
multi-language support.
which obviously is not the one we want - I found out while trying to
install it O:-) -. Another one is "Aria download manager RPM Project",
which also isn't, but not so obvious (it is a "download manager", after
all).
The correct one is "aria2", which is not found searching for "aria" in
sourceforge: you have to search for "aria2" specifically.
It would be nice if the wiki
(http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink) did not only mention
the Metalink existence, but also provided a link to a readily compiled rpm
for all currently SuSE versions in use (10.1, 10.1, 9.3, SLES, etc), if
you want people to use metalink to download 10.2.
That means today ;-)
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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5:14 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
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The Wednesday 2006-12-06 at 16:56 +0100, I wrote:
It would be nice if the wiki
(http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink) did not only mention
the Metalink existence, but also provided a link to a readily compiled rpm
for all currently SuSE versions in use (10.1, 10.1, 9.3, SLES, etc), if
you want people to use metalink to download 10.2.
That means today ;-)
I'll mention that is is not possible to compile aria2-0.9.0.tar.bz2 in
suse 10.1, a dependency problem: it needs libxml 2.6.24, and 10.1 has
2.6.23. That support is necesary for the metalink part of the program.
I opened a thread about this in opensuse, please answer there. I just want
to call your attention to that; me and many others will not be able to use
metalink this run, I'm afraid.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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8 Dec
8 Dec
6 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On the whole it was all quite successful -- the site stayed up throughout, and
users got very fast and reliable downloads thanks to metalink. The torrents
were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the initial flood
in. Metalinks went well throughout the day, so good stuff.
Regards,
Francis.
6:33 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
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The Friday 2006-12-08 at 17:00 -0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On the whole it was all quite successful -- the site
stayed up throughout, and
users got very fast and reliable downloads thanks to metalink.
HA!
Don't make me laugh. Reliable my foot!
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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8:33 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 05:00:52PM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On the whole it was all quite successful -- the site
stayed up throughout, and
users got very fast and reliable downloads thanks to metalink. The torrents
were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the initial flood
in. Metalinks went well throughout the day, so good stuff.
It all depends on how many downloads there were compared to last times. It
could b that people run away from Novell, due to the deal, or instead
became curious and downloaded even more.
It would be interesting to see the numbers compared to other versions if
those are available. I understand that you can't put a total on it, but
Novell could compare the number of people who 'registerd'. In perecntage
compared with the real downloads, that should give a good indication.
Or just some webstats comparing the different versions in another way.
I suspect that the download is less, because e.g. /. still has not
mentioned it and my submited story is still pending and I doubt that I am
the only one.
houghi
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9 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
houghi <houghi(a)houghi.org> writes:
On Fri, Dec 08, 2006 at 05:00:52PM +0000, Francis
Giannaros wrote:
We were a bit better prepared than last time and added for example an
extra mirror network where according to our admins "Yesterday we were
sustained close to 8Gb/sec for a good chunk of the day". Thanks to
all the mirrors helping us!
On the whole it was all quite successful -- the
site stayed up throughout, and
users got very fast and reliable downloads thanks to metalink. The torrents
were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the initial flood
in. Metalinks went well throughout the day, so good stuff.
It all depends on how many downloads there were compared to last times. It
could b that people run away from Novell, due to the deal, or instead
became curious and downloaded even more. It would be interesting to see the numbers compared to
other versions if
those are available. I understand that you can't put a total on it, but
Novell could compare the number of people who 'registerd'. In perecntage
compared with the real downloads, that should give a good indication.
Or just some webstats comparing the different versions in another way.
I suspect that the download is less, because e.g. /. still has not
mentioned it and my submited story is still pending and I doubt that I am
the only one.
I'm interested as well ;-)
Andreas
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10 Dec
10 Dec
5:11 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
A question on distro packaging,
I am sure this has been asked in some way previously, But here goes.
What are the negatives of packaging a "1-cd install" type first disk of
new releases. To be more specific, let's say I know I want the KDE and
not much else, why couldn't the first disk contain enough of the distro
to get me to a networked KDE desktop with nothing else except for the
software maintenance tools for access to the repo's (same for Gnome)?
JT
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8 Dec
8 Dec
10:17 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Francis Giannaros a écrit :
The torrents
were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the initial flood
no drop here, on the contrary the number of clients/servers
increase. the more are for the i386 dvd, of course. I have
now 730 sources and 3303 clients for it (326/1144 for the
x86_64 dvd)
and of course all the people installing the distro can't
seed :-)
jdd
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9 Dec
9 Dec
12:35 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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The Friday 2006-12-08 at 22:17 +0100, jdd sur free wrote:
No, it is slow: my torrent download is going slow: 58% in 22 hours... ie,
less than 30 KB/S avg, a third of my bandwidth. This matchs what you say,
that you see more clients. And remember, adsl is asymetric, we can not
seed as fast as we download.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
The torrents
were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the
initial flood
no drop here, on the contrary the number of clients/servers increase. the more
are for the i386 dvd, of course. I have now 730 sources and 3303 clients for
it (326/1144 for the x86_64 dvd) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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1:13 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Friday 2006-12-08 at 22:17 +0100, jdd sur free
wrote:
No, it is slow: my torrent download is going slow: 58% in 22 hours... ie,
less than 30 KB/S avg, a third of my bandwidth. This matchs what you say,
that you see more clients. And remember, adsl is asymetric, we can not
seed as fast as we download.
You can use metalink and use the stuff I added to the page. 30 people
have verified that it works with rsync to correct problems. It is
extremely fast repaiging them.
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The
torrents were originally very fast but the pace dropped down after the
initial flood
no drop here, on the contrary the number of clients/servers increase. the more
are for the i386 dvd, of course. I have now 730 sources and 3303 clients for
it (326/1144 for the x86_64 dvd)
1:44 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
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The Friday 2006-12-08 at 17:13 -0700, Boyd Lynn Gerber wrote:
I know they can be repaired. But, I had no chance to try because the
client destroyed the downloaded thing! And of course, it doesn't support
retaking the partial torrent download, so I can't try again.
If the client had asked before overwriting the existing file...
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
No, it is
slow: my torrent download is going slow: 58% in 22 hours... ie,
less than 30 KB/S avg, a third of my bandwidth. This matchs what you say,
that you see more clients. And remember, adsl is asymetric, we can not
seed as fast as we download.
You can use metalink and use the stuff I added to the page. 30 people
have verified that it works with rsync to correct problems. It is
extremely fast repaiging them. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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10 Dec
10 Dec
8:33 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
ie,
The Friday 2006-12-08 at 22:17 +0100, jdd sur
free wrote:
> > The torrents were originally very fast but the pace dropped down
after
the
> > initial flood
>
> no drop here, on the contrary the number of clients/servers
increase. the
more
> are for the i386 dvd, of course. I have now
730 sources and 3303
clients for
it
(326/1144 for the x86_64 dvd)
No, it is slow: my torrent download is going slow: 58% in 22 hours... less than 30 KB/S avg, a third of my bandwidth.
This matchs what you
say,
that you see more clients. And remember, adsl is
asymetric, we can
not
seed as fast as we download.
You can use metalink and use the stuff I added to the page. 30 people
have verified that it works with rsync to correct problems. It is
extremely fast repaiging them. From the point of view of metalink, this release seems
to have gone pretty
well. I spent some time in #suse & would like to thank
apokryphos, yaloki,
bgerber, benjiman, and the others helping everyone out that was trying to
get the ISOs. And Manuel Subredu, at the RoEduNet Iasi mirror who wrote the
software generating the .metalinks.
It looks like there were twenty thousand .metalink downloads in the first
day.
Obviously, most mirrors were stressed from the sudden onslaught and people
were having trouble getting the ISOs or getting them very slowly. Some
mirrors crawl, while others do better. I saw quite a few people learning
about metalink for the first time. Everyone reported good download speeds
(usually their max). A few reported checksum errors, which could not be
avoided due to the situation, but were repaired with rsync. (Except for
Carlos' problem). The chunk checksums should soon correct this, when they've
been added to clients.
I always thought manually gathering URLs was annoying and I'm glad I could
finally talk some people into trying metalink. Having the multiple redundant
URLs and automating it is all much simpler.
It would be nice if there were official RPMs for aria2, hopefully enough
people were exposed to it and had a good experience. KDE4's KGet should also
support metalink so that should be much easier for average people.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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9:15 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Anthony Bryan a écrit :
I always thought manually gathering URLs was annoying
and I'm glad I could
finally talk some people into trying metalink. Having the multiple redundant
URLs and automating it is all much simpler.
metalinks would be even better if they included bittorrent
right from the start (so there would be no need to two
clients style :-)
jdd
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11 Dec
11 Dec
7:31 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Sunday 10 December 2006 13:33, Anthony Bryan wrote:
.....
I always thought manually gathering URLs was annoying
and I'm glad I could
finally talk some people into trying metalink. Having the multiple
redundant URLs and automating it is all much simpler.
Hi Anthony,
The idea to automate mirror (download source) selection is great, but there is
so many details on and around your web page that doesn't help me.
Let me explain.
1) Project web page
http://www.metalinker.org
gives promisses in the same marketing style as menu commercial sites.
All is so great, no problems, only benefits, the life is good.
2) All rights reserved at the bottom, sounds so proprietary. No word about
license.
3) Downloads are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
4) No Single Point of Failure (SPOF) like FTP or HTTP URLs.
-It showed that implementation is not that perfect and single point of failure
ruined some people experience.
Anything that comes with a lot of declarative sentences and some inserted
jokes, can't give me confidence. Jokes alone are not the problem.
5) More fault tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
6) It's a neutral standard that doesn't favor any one program, Operating
system, or group, and is easy to implement.
-Who made it standard? I can't find references on web site.
7) OpenOffice.org uses Metalinks.
http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/magnet.html
I'm removing listed magnet clients from any computer and explain users that
they should not install them again. Do you think that anything listed on the
same page will gain my trust?
As I said, the idea is very attractive, but marketing isn't. The download
speed and convenient automation of process are not the only factors when
someone uses Internet as a software source.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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8:17 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Hi Rajko,
The idea to automate mirror (download source)
selection is great, but
there is
so many details on and around your web page that doesn't help me.
Let me explain.
1) Project web page
http://www.metalinker.org
gives promisses in the same marketing style as menu commercial sites.
All is so great, no problems, only benefits, the life is good.
The point of the site/text is to talk people into trying it out and giving
it a chance. I've done my best to give info to most of the people
interested. I'm not familiar with menu commercial sites.
2) All rights reserved at the bottom, sounds so
proprietary. No word
about
license.
That's for the text of the site. What do you mean by license? I offer no
software. Some of the software that uses Metalink is under the GPL, some is
commercial.
3) Downloads are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
Cool. Not everyone uses or can use YaST in all situations :)
4) No Single Point of Failure (SPOF) like FTP or HTTP
URLs.
-It showed that implementation is not that perfect and single point of
failure
ruined some people experience.
Anything that comes with a lot of declarative sentences and some
inserted
jokes, can't give me confidence. Jokes alone are not the problem.
That is a reference to having unorganized single links to an ISO for
instance. If the server goes down or is hammered, it will be hard to
download. A lot of people experienced this for the 10.2 release. Metalinks
list many URLs, so the clients can automate the process of connecting and
using them, if some mirrors are down it recovers gracefully, and for
instance not using some mirrors if the download rate is below a certain
limit, etc.
5) More fault tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
? Of course you have to (or do something else), or you have to start over
from scratch if there's an error in transfer. As far as I know, there is no
difference in the basic transfer methods of Metalink clients and wget.
Someone could quickly write a Metalink interface for wget.
6) It's a neutral standard that doesn't favor
any one program,
Operating
system, or group, and is easy to implement.
-Who made it standard? I can't find references on web site.
The clients that use it. No standards body has endorsed it. If you know of
any that you think would be interested, let me know.
7) OpenOffice.org uses Metalinks.
http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/magnet.html
I'm removing listed magnet clients from any computer and explain users
that
they should not install them again. Do you think that anything listed
on the
same page will gain my trust?
I'm not sure what this means. Can you explain it more? Is there something
untrustworthy about magnet clients? I wasn't aware of that. Metalink just
happens to be listed on the same page by OpenOffice.org. If there is
something wrong with them, I will try to get removed from that page.
As I said, the idea is very attractive, but marketing
isn't. The
download
speed and convenient automation of process are not the only factors
when
someone uses Internet as a software source.
I'm sorry you see it as marketing, I know I'd be a pretty bad salesman.
(it's just what I wrote to get the basic idea across, I don't think it's
particularly good but it seemed ok to me). I think Metalink solves some
problems and of course that's fine if you disagree :) I only hope that
people try it out and decide for themselves.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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12 Dec
12 Dec
1:51 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On 12/11/06, Anthony Bryan <albryan(a)comcast.net> wrote:
The fact that there is no official implementation of Metalink software
is actually the main issue I have with Metalink. It feels too much
like there is snake oil involved, with claims and promises and what
feels like marketing, and the delivery of actual results is left to
other parties.
Take Bittorrent and its rise to fame, it had an official and basic
client, which was proven to work, and was then implemented by
countless clients. Similarly I would like to have seen Metalinks
pushed by an implementor who wanted to share their creation.
2) All rights
reserved at the bottom, sounds so proprietary. No word
about
license.
That's for the text of the site. What do you mean by license? I offer no
software. Some of the software that uses Metalink is under the GPL, some is
commercial. I'm sorry you see it as marketing, I know I'd
be a pretty bad salesman.
(it's just what I wrote to get the basic idea across, I don't think it's
particularly good but it seemed ok to me). I think Metalink solves some
problems and of course that's fine if you disagree :) I only hope that
people try it out and decide for themselves.
Most of us are used to two worlds, the opensource - where projects are
generally started to scratch your own itch and the successful ones
take on a life - and the commercial - where things are made for
profit. Metalink.org and your motivations for pushing metalinks are
not clear.
Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to discourage you in
your quest or others from trying clients with Metalinks, I am just
sharing my thoughts how I and maybe others see it.
Pflodo
Peter Flodin.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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9:56 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On 12/11/06, Anthony Bryan <albryan(a)comcast.net>
wrote:
no
I don't have the resources of BitTorrent Inc ($28 million and deals with the MPAA).
I am sharing my creation, there are multiple parties using it and I have been trying my
best to get others to use it. I've been working on Metalink on and off for over a
decade, and more than full time for over a year. I fund it all myself, with absolutely no
income from it.
> 2) All rights reserved at the bottom, sounds
so proprietary. No
word
about
license.
That's for the text of the site. What do you mean by license? I offer software. Some of the software that uses Metalink
is under the GPL,
some is
commercial.
The fact that there is no official implementation of Metalink software
is actually the main issue I have with Metalink. It feels too much
like there is snake oil involved, with claims and promises and what
feels like marketing, and the delivery of actual results is left to
other parties.
Take Bittorrent and its rise to fame, it had an official and basic
client, which was proven to work, and was then implemented by
countless clients. Similarly I would like to have seen Metalinks
pushed by an implementor who wanted to share their creation. I'm sorry
you see it as marketing, I know I'd be a pretty bad
salesman.
(it's just what I wrote to get the basic idea
across, I don't think
it's
particularly good but it seemed ok to me). I
think Metalink solves
some
problems and of course that's fine if you
disagree :) I only hope
that
people try it out and decide for themselves.
Most of us are used to two worlds, the opensource - where projects are
generally started to scratch your own itch and the successful ones
take on a life - and the commercial - where things are made for
profit. Metalink.org and your motivations for pushing metalinks are
not clear.
Don't get me wrong, I am not in any way trying to discourage you in
your quest or others from trying clients with Metalinks, I am just
sharing my thoughts how I and maybe others see it.
13 Dec
13 Dec
8:04 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Anthony Bryan a écrit :
I don't have the resources of BitTorrent Inc
the real problem, here is in my opinions to know if metalink
is a real progress.
I mean a complete system, with bittorrent and eventually
rsync addition (may be a simple batch to do that).
and is it a real progress for Novell and openSUSE in the way
of spreading they distribution.
If it is not, let alone...
if it is openSUSE have the man power to get a client
uptodate (aeria2 or any other)... it's as simple as that.
We all know that openSUSE (and probably others distributions
as well) have mirror problems, so is this a solution?
obviously not for 10.2, but for 10.3
may be Anthony didn't know sufficiently well advertise it's
product. If this product is really usefull, he may
appreciate any help, I'm sure...
jdd
--
http://www.dodin.net
http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO
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9:42 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Anthony Bryan a écrit :
Metalinks can list bittorrent and rsync resources. aria2 and GetRight
support the bittorrent protocol. no metalink clients currently support the
rsync protocol, but (if the full file checksum does not match) I assume it
could be possible for some clients to 1) add rsync support (librsync?) and
automatically use it to repair the file 2) at least list the rsync servers
contained in the metalink and tell users the command to repair the file. The
second option wouldn't be as nice and automated, but seems pretty simple.
(But I might be wrong).
I don't have the resources of BitTorrent Inc
the real problem, here is in my opinions to know if metalink
is a real progress.
I mean a complete system, with bittorrent and eventually
rsync addition (may be a simple batch to do that). and is it a real progress for Novell and openSUSE in
the way
of spreading they distribution.
I think most Novell and openSUSE people have been quiet about metalink, I
would be interested to know their opinions. Unless they hated it :)
There were 20,000 downloads of openSUSE 10.2 metalinks the first day of
release, and about 60,000 total so far.
If it is not, let alone...
if it is openSUSE have the man power to get a client
uptodate (aeria2 or any other)... it's as simple as that.
We all know that openSUSE (and probably others distributions
as well) have mirror problems, so is this a solution?
obviously not for 10.2, but for 10.3
may be Anthony didn't know sufficiently well advertise it's
product. If this product is really usefull, he may
appreciate any help, I'm sure...
Definitely, I would REALLY appreciate help.
I will try to reply to everyone once I get some time, swamped at the moment.
If anyone wants more info, there's this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalink
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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15 Dec
15 Dec
2:35 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Wednesday 13 December 2006 02:42, Anthony Bryan wrote:
I think most Novell and openSUSE people have been
quiet about metalink, I
would be interested to know their opinions. Unless they hated it :)
Metalink concept is not completely new. Bittorrent has similar ideas, it just
doesn't involve FTP and HTTP servers.
For the engineering the point of better download protocol (method) is better
usage of present resources (servers and bandwith) so if they find it
interesting, they will come up.
Right now, from descriptions, I can see that metalinks client introduces some
overhead by checking server speed from each client (60000 times), That can be
avoided with central test servers in few parts of the world, or aggregating
data from clients in different parts of the world in central database and
sorting metalinks accordingly.
For instance the http://download.opensuse.org can be good place for that.
--
Regards, Rajko.
http://en.opensuse.org/MiniSUSE
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal
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13 Dec
13 Dec
5:32 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Monday 11 December 2006 01:17, Anthony Bryan wrote:
Sorry for late answer, I've seen message yesterday, but it was too late to
answer. I'm trying to be helpful and that takes time.
OK. The problem is that with previously mentioned ,missing talk about ideas,
it gives feeling that whatever you offer is proprietary. If you would mention
anywhere that described method is patent free and content of web site is
protected with some kind of opensource license than there will be no reasons
for questions.
I agree. That is actually trivial and missing feature in many download
products.
This is new method and it is far from being even "de facto" standard because
everybody is using it. If you would advertised it as a
"new method that doesn't favor any one program, Operating system, or group,
and is easy to implement."
it will be exactly what it is and no one will complain.
Well, I'm the only one that said this loud, but be sure that many think this
way.
Google returns links like this:
http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,49430,00.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1038_3-5215028.html
http://www.pestpatrol.com/spywarecenter/pest.aspx?id=453088059
(note versions)
Could be also something like this:
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?t=40161
So after some time spent in research I can understand why OP didn't understand
my comment about magnet clients. It can be that it was just old version or
hacked copies that gave me a lot of problems on few occasions.
I actually do not disagree with idea and I stated that more than one time, but
your presentation of metalinks is missing details.
I would like that you give some technical background how it works and to clear
legal status. Is it proprietary technology or opensource?
I have no problem with any technology as long as it is explained, software
works as described and the price is right :-) but I have problem with any
black boxes that do something, but even author can't explain details. That
is, looking to some other posts, not only my impression.
Present one (or few) clients in more details. You didn't make them, but they
will make whole idea fly or fail, so you have to take time and present them
with much more than one screenshot and few links. It will give to visitors
feeling that whole idea is a serious technical work and that is what many are
looking for before give a test drive.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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Hi Rajko,
It should be "many" sorry for typo. I mentioned the style where many words are
used to praise product and no word what are the limitations. More technical
details about methods to achieve download will be more than welcome. Open
talk about underlaying ideas will give everybody different feeling about your
project.
The way you did it is OK for commercial software, where ideas how it works are
hidden from public.
The idea to automate mirror (download source)
selection is great, but
there is
so many details on and around your web page that doesn't help me.
Let me explain.
1) Project web page
http://www.metalinker.org
gives promisses in the same marketing style as menu commercial sites.
All is so great, no problems, only benefits, the life is good.
The point of the site/text is to talk people into trying it out and giving
it a chance. I've done my best to give info to most of the people
interested. I'm not familiar with menu commercial sites. 2) All rights
reserved at the bottom, sounds so proprietary. No word
about
license.
That's for the text of the site. What do you mean by license? I offer no
software. Some of the software that uses Metalink is under the GPL, some is
commercial. 3) Downloads
are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
Cool. Not everyone uses or can use YaST in all situations :) > 4) No Single Point of Failure (SPOF) like FTP or
HTTP URLs.
> -It showed that implementation is not that perfect and single point of
> failure
> ruined some people experience.
> Anything that comes with a lot of declarative sentences and some
> inserted
> jokes, can't give me confidence. Jokes alone are not the problem.
This was explained above. More technical details will give me and many others
more confidence that metalink is worth to try.
That is a reference to having unorganized single links
to an ISO for
instance. If the server goes down or is hammered, it will be hard to
download. A lot of people experienced this for the 10.2 release. Metalinks
list many URLs, so the clients can automate the process of connecting and
using them, if some mirrors are down it recovers gracefully, and for
instance not using some mirrors if the download rate is below a certain
limit, etc.
The problem is that TCP has error correction and it will request packages that
are bad. The only thing that can brake download is timeout in transmission
and that can happen in rush hours on new release. In that case wget -c will
not start from scratch.
5) More fault tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
? Of course you have to (or do something else), or you have to start over
from scratch if there's an error in transfer. As far as I know, there is no
difference in the basic transfer methods of Metalink clients and wget.
Someone could quickly write a Metalink interface for wget. 6) It's a
neutral standard that doesn't favor any one program,
Operating
system, or group, and is easy to implement.
-Who made it standard? I can't find references on web site.
The clients that use it. No standards body has endorsed it. If you know of
any that you think would be interested, let me know. 7)
OpenOffice.org uses Metalinks.
http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/magnet.html
I'm removing listed magnet clients from any computer and explain users
that
they should not install them again. Do you think that anything listed
on the
same page will gain my trust?
I'm not sure what this means. Can you explain it more? Is there something
untrustworthy about magnet clients? I wasn't aware of that. Metalink just
happens to be listed on the same page by OpenOffice.org. If there is
something wrong with them, I will try to get removed from that page. As I said, the
idea is very attractive, but marketing isn't. The
download speed and convenient automation of process are not the
only factors when someone uses Internet as a software source.
I'm sorry you see it as marketing, I know I'd be a pretty bad salesman.
(it's just what I wrote to get the basic idea across, I don't think it's
particularly good but it seemed ok to me). I think Metalink solves some
problems and of course that's fine if you disagree :) I only hope that
people try it out and decide for themselves.
17 Dec
17 Dec
10:51 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Hi again Rajko,
I agree. That is actually trivial and missing feature in many download
products.
Yes, I am trying to encourage full file checksumming to be automated, as you
can see. All the clients support this now. It may not be much, but it
simplifies things for some people who aren't familiar with doing that.
The partial file/segment checksums are also available and I am encouraging
that as well - this will allow the automatic error correction. Some of the
clients are adding this now. I guess it isn't as simple as the full file
checksums. I don't know how far along aria2 is if at all, but if someone
wanted to submit a patch that might not hurt. (Might want to contact the
author or wait until the next release).
something
Ok, glad you understand that bad clients that may have used magnet links
have no connection with metalink.
It should be "many" sorry for typo. I
mentioned the style where many
words are
used to praise product and no word what are the limitations. More
technical
details about methods to achieve download will be more than welcome.
Open
talk about underlaying ideas will give everybody different feeling
about your
project.
The way you did it is OK for commercial software, where ideas how it
works are
hidden from public.
Nothing at all is hidden from the public.
From the site:
Metalink is a simple XML (text)
format. Download one and open it with a text
editor, & most of it should be self explanatory. If you want to read the
long, boring Metalink 3.0 specification, here you go:
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.odt
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.pdf
(I think you are looking for section 3.2).
Here's a .metalink (minus most <url>s for brevity). The client can only use
the information that's there. It's pretty straightforward.
<file name="openSUSE-10.2-GM-DVD-i386.iso">
<os>Linux-x86</os>
<size>3880814592</size>
<verification>
<hash type="md5">12b0f2fabb4d41586601f787d33ebc34</hash>
</verification>
<resources>
<url type="http"
location="jp"
preference="10">
http://ftp.kddilabs.jp/Linux/packages/opensuse/distribution/openSUSE-current
/iso/dvd/openSUSE-10.2-GM-DVD-i386.iso
</url>
<url type="ftp"
location="tw"
preference="10">
ftp://ftp.isu.edu.tw/Linux/SuSE/distribution/openSUSE-current/iso/dvd/openSU
SE-10.2-GM-DVD-i386.iso
</url>
<url type="http"
location="ch"
preference="10">
http://mirror.switch.ch/ftp/mirror/opensuse/distribution/openSUSE-current/is
o/dvd/openSUSE-10.2-GM-DVD-i386.iso
</url>
</resources>
</file>
OK. The problem is that with previously mentioned
,missing talk about
ideas,
it gives feeling that whatever you offer is proprietary. If you would
mention
anywhere that described method is patent free and content of web site
is
protected with some kind of opensource license than there will be no
reasons
for questions.
Metalink is patent free, unlike BitTorrent. (BT is awesome and the best
thing to happen to the net since the web).
The content of my website is under Creative Commons Attribution License. I
believe this is the correct license for this type of thing, but I'm not very
familiar w/ licenses. If someone knows of a more suitable one, please let me
know.
3) Downloads are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
Cool. Not everyone uses or can use YaST in all situations :) > 7)
OpenOffice.org uses Metalinks.
> http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/magnet.html
> I'm removing listed magnet clients from any computer and explain
users
> that
> they should not install them again. Do you think that anything
listed
on the
same page will gain my trust?
I'm not sure what this means. Can you explain it more? Is there untrustworthy about magnet clients? I wasn't
aware of that. Metalink
just
happens to be listed on the same page by
OpenOffice.org. If there is
something wrong with them, I will try to get removed from that page.
Google returns links like this:
http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,49430,00.html
http://news.com.com/2100-1038_3-5215028.html
http://www.pestpatrol.com/spywarecenter/pest.aspx?id=453088059
(note versions)
Could be also something like this:
http://www.gnutellaforums.com/showthread.php?t=40161
So after some time spent in research I can understand why OP didn't
understand
my comment about magnet clients. It can be that it was just old version
or
hacked copies that gave me a lot of problems on few occasions. I actually do not disagree with idea and I stated that
more than one
time, but
your presentation of metalinks is missing details.
I would like that you give some technical background how it works and
to clear
legal status. Is it proprietary technology or opensource?
You are the first person to request details. I assume people really
interested read the spec I mentioned above. Most people don't care about
that much detail.
As I've mentioned before, metalink is not proprietary. I don't know how it
could be open source, since I don't offer any actual programs or source.
It's something developers have implemented in both proprietary and open
source programs.
I have no problem with any technology as long as it is
explained,
software
works as described and the price is right :-) but I have problem with
any
black boxes that do something, but even author can't explain details.
That
is, looking to some other posts, not only my impression.
If you're familiar with download managers and checksums then you already
understand it.
Obviously, there are no black boxes in the open source clients and a plain
text XML file!
The rsync should not be necessary. It is proof that
either metalink
concept or
implementation is not good in all details.
BTW, I an use rsync alone and skip any repair.
rsync was offered as a temporary solution until aria2 can use the partial
file checksums for error correction.
From Francis:
Anyhow, at the moment I think, considering all the flaws of the current
implementation, it's still hands-down the top method I'd use. I
explained
why. Fastest ever download speeds, and if you use rsync it's always
guaranteed. Again, not perfect, but still very very good for me.
Considering
I'd perhaps only ever have to do rsync 1 in 100 times.
The client can only go with what you give it. If it's downloading from
ftp/http, that's all its downloading from. There is just the automated
checksum at the end, which will tell you if there were errors. I suppose the
larger the file, the larger the chance of errors. If you're downloading an
ISO over 2, 4 or 8 hrs, chances are probably higher that you will have an
error in there somewhere. I'm sure there are lots of factors, but the bottom
line is that for most people errors and rare but unavoidable with ftp/http.
I've downloaded over a thousand files with metalinks, testing various stuff,
and have only had one checksum error. I guess that's a testament to the
quality of my connection. And thankfully it was a small couple hundred k
file, not a 3G monster ISO.
Once aria2 and other metalink clients support the partial file checksums,
all this will be moot. I can't afford to pay people to work on this, so they
will do it on their own time schedule. I'm sorry some people had problems,
especially the file overwrite bug that someone ran into.
Some other neat features which are still unsupported are inclusion of PGP
signatures and some other stuff.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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18 Dec
18 Dec
1:45 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Sunday 17 December 2006 15:51, Anthony Bryan wrote:
But, one particular magnet client I can't recommend as my friends will not
check for version and source, for sure. What I actually do is to recommend
some subscription service like Rhapsody, not expensive and works for me, so
it may work for them too.
The specification is enough details.
The most of the people are using OS that drains pockets with add this, add
that, upgrade software, upgrade hardware, and still they don't want to try
financially better option finding million reasons why is better what they
have.
...
Hi again Rajko,
...
From the site:
Metalink is a simple XML (text) format. Download one and open it with a
text editor, & most of it should be self explanatory. If you want to read
the long, boring Metalink 3.0 specification, here you go:
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.odt
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.pdf
Thanks for this.
...
Metalink is patent free, unlike BitTorrent. (BT is
awesome and the best
thing to happen to the net since the web).
The content of my website is under Creative Commons Attribution License. I
believe this is the correct license for this type of thing, but I'm not
very familiar w/ licenses. If someone knows of a more suitable one, please
let me know.
Creative Commons Attribution License is for me good as any other that doesn't
limit flow of ideas.
...
The partial file/segment checksums are also available
and I am encouraging
that as well - this will allow the automatic error correction. Some of the
clients are adding this now. I guess it isn't as simple as the full file
checksums. I don't know how far along aria2 is if at all, but if someone
wanted to submit a patch that might not hurt. (Might want to contact the
author or wait until the next release).
I'm not developer, but I can try to break it, if possible, and than complain
to developers about implementation :-)
...
my comment
about magnet clients. It can be that it was just old version
or
hacked copies that gave me a lot of problems on few occasions.
Ok, glad you understand that bad clients that may have used magnet links
have no connection with metalink. I actually do
not disagree with idea and I stated that more than one
time, but
your presentation of metalinks is missing details.
I would like that you give some technical background how it works and
to clear
legal status. Is it proprietary technology or opensource?
You are the first person to request details. I assume people really
interested read the spec I mentioned above. Most people don't care about
that much detail. The client can only go with what you give it. If
it's downloading from
ftp/http, that's all its downloading from. There is just the automated
checksum at the end, which will tell you if there were errors. I suppose
the larger the file, the larger the chance of errors. If you're downloading
an ISO over 2, 4 or 8 hrs, chances are probably higher that you will have
an error in there somewhere. I'm sure there are lots of factors, but the
bottom line is that for most people errors and rare but unavoidable with
ftp/http. I've downloaded over a thousand files with metalinks, testing
various stuff, and have only had one checksum error. I guess that's a
testament to the quality of my connection. And thankfully it was a small
couple hundred k file, not a 3G monster ISO.
The http and ftp protocols are using built in error correction of TCP/IP and
that will fail sometimes, under circumstances that occur more often in
congestions like one on a release day.
...
Once aria2 and other metalink clients support the
partial file checksums,
all this will be moot.
Someone has to make them available, software maker or guys that create
metalinks.
I can't afford to pay people to work on this, so
they will do it on their own time schedule. I'm sorry some people had
problems, especially the file overwrite bug that someone ran into.
It happens with software.
Some other neat features which are still unsupported
are inclusion of PGP
signatures and some other stuff.
That is what is necessary to verify source of files.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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4:30 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
The Sunday 2006-12-17 at 18:45 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
...
IMO, it would be suficient to sign the xml metalink file itself. As it
contains the md5sum check of the image, that would enough to certify that
what you downloaded was the correct signed file.
Also, segment md5sums could be used to certify mirror sites: if a
segment downloaded from a site doesn't check, and a retry fails again,
that would mark that site as "bad" or bogus or whatever.
An alternative is to sign the image, but that would be better done by the
image provider/maker.
Tricky problem! ;-)
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
Some other
neat features which are still unsupported are inclusion of PGP
signatures and some other stuff.
That is what is necessary to verify source of files. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
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=unP4
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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19 Dec
19 Dec
4:26 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Monday 18 December 2006 09:30, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2006-12-17 at 18:45 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
...
IMO, it would be suficient to sign the xml metalink file itself. As it
contains the md5sum check of the image, that would enough to certify that
what you downloaded was the correct signed file.
Also, segment md5sums could be used to certify mirror sites: if a
segment downloaded from a site doesn't check, and a retry fails again,
that would mark that site as "bad" or bogus or whatever.
An alternative is to sign the image, but that would be better done by the
image provider/maker.
Tricky problem! ;-)
The links to spec files in one of other messages
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.odt
http://www.metalinker.org/Metalink_3.0_Spec.pdf
I haven't time to read specifications, so I can't say is verification included
and if it is what method is used. Bryan mentioned that it will come in future
versions of aria2.
The metalink might be good to distribute load on servers, but it needs
improvements.
Now each client is testing servers independently. This produces some overhead
that can be skipped if traffic data will be collected to central server from
clients that start using metalink and after that metalink file will be
changed to point to free resources ie. servers that show good performance.
The problem is not trivial, as change in metalink file will change
distribution of the load and than reports will be changed. That means that we
have feedback that has to be regulated to prevent system to go wild and lock
everybody out.
Another problem is that each client should use minimum number of connections
ie. servers to reach maximum download speed and than stop asking for more as
each server has its maximum, so it will prevent others to download.
I have more questions than answers, and some reading is pending :-)
--
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Some
other neat features which are still unsupported are inclusion of
PGP signatures and some other stuff.
That is what is necessary to verify source of files.
7:15 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
From Carlos:
The Sunday 2006-12-17 at 18:45 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
IMO, it would be suficient to sign the xml metalink file itself. As it
contains the md5sum check of the image, that would enough to certify
that
what you downloaded was the correct signed file.
That is definitely a possibility.
> Some other neat features which are still
unsupported are inclusion
of PGP
signatures and some other stuff.
That is what is necessary to verify source of files. Also, segment md5sums could be used to certify
mirror sites: if a
segment downloaded from a site doesn't check, and a retry fails
again,
that would mark that site as "bad" or bogus or whatever.
Yes.
An alternative is to sign the image, but that would be
better done by
the
image provider/maker.
Tricky problem! ;-)
Yes, hopefully whoever makes the ISO will sign them (if they're interested
in this).
Here's the currently unimplemented idea for metalink, which could change if
the clients find out it is clumsy or bad once they start putting it into
practice.
For those unfamiliar, Linux Kernels (linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2) are signed with
a separate file (linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign) which looks like this:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: See http://www.kernel.org/signature.html for info
iD8DBQBFfdY4yGugalF9Dw4RAhpVAJ91gKuKakVYF8VPltPwalOi0/1WcQCfQR1A
TAtxcYJjqogTkkvcUoTD34I=
=68Ad
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
This can be easily inside the Metalink, like this:
<verification>
<signature type="pgp" file="linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign">
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: See http://www.kernel.org/signature.html for info
iD8DBQBFfdY4yGugalF9Dw4RAhpVAJ91gKuKakVYF8VPltPwalOi0/1WcQCfQR1A
TAtxcYJjqogTkkvcUoTD34I=
=68Ad
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
</signature>
</verification>
Or just listed as another file within the metalink
<resources>
<url>http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign
</url>
</resources>
At the least, a client could recognize when a signature is included in the
metalink and tell the client to verify it manually
gpg --verify linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2
But, I'm hoping it won't be too hard to automate this.
From Rajko:
The metalink might be good to distribute load on
servers, but it needs
improvements.
Now each client is testing servers independently. This produces some
overhead
that can be skipped if traffic data will be collected to central server
from
clients that start using metalink and after that metalink file will be
changed to point to free resources ie. servers that show good
performance.
The problem is not trivial, as change in metalink file will change
distribution of the load and than reports will be changed. That means
that we
have feedback that has to be regulated to prevent system to go wild and
lock
everybody out.
Yes, there is currently no program that monitors the mirror servers and
dynamically updates .metalink files according to mirror load.
I see this as being really useful at the busiest times, but maybe not as
critical during normal times. But I might be wrong. I do think it would be
really cool if someone was interested and would work on it tho.
Another problem is that each client should use minimum
number of
connections
ie. servers to reach maximum download speed and than stop asking for
more as
each server has its maximum, so it will prevent others to download.
Yes, aria2 uses 15 connections to 15 different servers by default AFAIR.
This can be changed with command line options. Or if a distribution shipped
a binary, they could decide on a number they felt was better. I believe all
the other clients go by whatever options the user has set, (I don't know the
defaults off hand for all of them). It would be nice if clients could
recognize they were downloading at the users maximum speed for their
connection with 2 connections, so please don't open up 13 more.
It might be hard to fine tune what is most efficient. For dialup users, 1 is
probably plenty. For me on cable, 4-6 is usually good in most conditions.
I'd also like to find a number that is respectful to mirror server
resources.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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12:33 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
The Tuesday 2006-12-19 at 01:15 -0500, Anthony Bryan wrote:
...
Here's the currently unimplemented idea for
metalink, which could change if
the clients find out it is clumsy or bad once they start putting it into
practice.
For those unfamiliar, Linux Kernels (linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2) are signed with
a separate file (linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign) which looks like this:
...
This can be easily inside the Metalink, like this:
<verification>
<signature type="pgp" file="linux-2.6.19.1.tar.bz2.sign">
But not several connections to the same server: that would be considered
aggressive, I suppose. I don't think it does that, AFAIK, so that's good.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
...
That would be nice: if the file provider has signed it first, the metalink
creator can include it. Otherwise, just sign the metalink file.
The "snag" is that checking both checksum and signature doubles checking
time. I suppose that the user could select which one to use, same as rpm
does, having both systems too, if I'm not mistaken.
...
>From Rajko:
Yes, there is currently no program that monitors the
mirror servers and
dynamically updates .metalink files according to mirror load.
I see this as being really useful at the busiest times, but maybe not as
critical during normal times. But I might be wrong. I do think it would be
really cool if someone was interested and would work on it tho.
I suppose that if the client sees that a server is serving slowly it can
switch to a different one automatically and dynamically. After all, it is
connected to several and it can compare. Perhaps having a central server
recommending which servers to use, or modifying the metalink file
dynamically would be even better, but I think it works as it is.
Anyway... a server listing current mirror speeds or load would also be
useful to other people using plain ftp/http. It could be useful for
selecting an update server for Yast/YOU, too.
Another
problem is that each client should use minimum number of
connections ie. servers to reach maximum download speed and than stop
asking for more as each server has its maximum, so it will prevent
others to download.
Yes, aria2 uses 15 connections to 15 different servers by default AFAIR. This can be changed with command line options. Or if a
distribution shipped
a binary, they could decide on a number they felt was better. I believe all
the other clients go by whatever options the user has set, (I don't know the
defaults off hand for all of them). It would be nice if clients could
recognize they were downloading at the users maximum speed for their
connection with 2 connections, so please don't open up 13 more.
I saw aria2c starting at 15, and later dropping to 4 or 5 automatically,
maxing throughput. That's working well, I think.
It might be hard to fine tune what is most efficient.
For dialup users, 1 is
probably plenty. For me on cable, 4-6 is usually good in most conditions.
I'd also like to find a number that is respectful to mirror server
resources.
I suppose the client can tune automatically to use the minimum number that
maxes speed.
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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20 Dec
20 Dec
2:33 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Tuesday 19 December 2006 05:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:
I saw aria2c starting at 15, and later dropping to 4
or 5 automatically,
maxing throughput. That's working well, I think.
That means it is implemented to use just enough to have maximum speed. Good.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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8 Jan
8 Jan
2:06 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The "snag" is that checking both checksum
and signature doubles checking
time. I suppose that the user could select which one to use, same as rpm
does, having both systems too, if I'm not mistaken.
A cryptographic signature should detect data corruption as well as a
checksum -- after all it needs to detect willful tampering, not just
technical corruption. So that should suffice, shouldn't it?
Gerald
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4:08 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Definitely.
To put this in context, we were talking about metalink which is an XML list
of mirrors, checksums, and signatures for easier downloading/file
distribution. metalinks can contain:
partial file checksums for repairing a download
full file checksums
cryptographic signature
The problem is that there are multiple clients on multiple operating
systems. Almost all clients support MD5/SHA-1 full file checksums now. None
of them support partial file checksums or signatures so far. I doubt the
Windows and Mac clients will support PGP signatures, but maybe. It seems
like the Linux clients will be more likely to have GPG and integrate it. So,
a client that supports signatures could use the partial file checksums for
errors in transfer, then just use the signature and skip the full file
checksum. Ones that don't support signatures can use the partial and full
file checksums.
Support for metalink in KGet in KDE4 seems to be making progress.
(( Anthony Bryan
)) Metalink [ http://www.metalinker.org ]
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The "snag" is that checking both
checksum and signature doubles
checking
time. I suppose that the user could select which
one to use, same as
rpm
does, having both systems too, if I'm not
mistaken.
A cryptographic signature should detect data corruption as well as a
checksum -- after all it needs to detect willful tampering, not just
technical corruption. So that should suffice, shouldn't it?
12 Dec
12 Dec
2:23 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
The Monday 2006-12-11 at 00:31 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
5) More fault tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
That's not completely true - neither affirmation.
Wget can fail, and does sometimes, although rarely. There is no
filechecking in the ftp or http download protocol, not of the end result,
that is (tcp has package error checking, I understand). Sometimes
downloads do get errors. Even with a solid protocol as bittorrent, some
people using ktorrent have complained of bad checksum (which other
implementations of torrent can correct, by the way - ktorrent bug?)
Nor is metalink is more fault tolerant - in my brief experience and
understanding -. What it does is a final checksum of the downloaded file,
but it has no error correction method embedded. You are left to download
again or repair - same as with any other protocol. It is just a convenience
that it does an automated final check.
It would be more fault tolerant if it could, would, check the download as
it progresses and re download the faulty segment - the segment could be
big, but it would be better than re-downloading the whole thing. This
would serve also to mark servers as "bad" if a second download from them
fail again.
To be fair, the protocol allows for that. But! 1) the metalinks files
we were provided did not contain segment checksum and 2) the available
client (aria2c) doesn't support them, anyway (dunno about wxdfast,
because it refused to download anything in my system).
I would be even nicer if metalink had support for rsync servers and use
them to correct the end result automatically.
If the idea of the sentence "More fault tolerant" means that it will
download from a different server if one fails, well, ok, but I think my
above observations nullify that. Either the sentence is qualified, or it
is false.
So... it _may_ be more fault tolerant, but it isn't, currently.
7) OpenOffice.org uses Metalinks.
http://distribution.openoffice.org/p2p/magnet.html
I'm removing listed magnet clients from any computer and explain users that
they should not install them again. Do you think that anything listed on the
same page will gain my trust?
I also don't understand that. :-?
- --
Cheers,
Carlos E. R.
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10:39 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Monday 11 December 2006 06:31, Rajko M. wrote:
1) Project web page
http://www.metalinker.org
gives promisses in the same marketing style as menu commercial sites.
All is so great, no problems, only benefits, the life is good.
Don't be ridiculous, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shining up your
project with a nice website page. In fact that's very good. When I see a new
open source project, I'm interested in (i) what it does, (ii) how it helps
me.
If you want a commercial-like website see: http://basket.kde.org/
...and what's wrong about such sites? Absolutely nothing. You're confusing
traits that might be common to open source and commercial apps and then
necessarily associating one of them solely with the other
3) Downloads are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
Something new for wget users.
4) No Single Point of Failure (SPOF) like FTP or HTTP
URLs.
-It showed that implementation is not that perfect and single point of
failure ruined some people experience.
Anything that comes with a lot of declarative sentences and some inserted
jokes, can't give me confidence. Jokes alone are not the problem.
That's an issue for you to take on with yourself. Needless to say I wouldn't
say this was a common trait.
5) More fault tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
Rubbish. You can and do.
As I said, the idea is very attractive, but marketing
isn't.
(i) there's nothing wrong with marketing. I'm not sure you really understand
the term actually, since SUSE (and every other project practically) has
marketing, but just different levels. There is absolutely nothing inherently
wrong with marketing, but only the way in which it's delivered. Again,
there's absolutely nothing striking about metalink's marketing.
The download
speed and convenient automation of process are not the only factors when
someone uses Internet as a software source.
It would be foolish to presuppose that they're not big, or rather BIG,
factors. You think I'm going to wait around at release time for a slow
torrent or a non-working main site like? Or, you think I'm going to hunt
around through a long list of mirrors, when metalink can do it all for me?
At release time, now, if I wanted to get an image straight away, there's
absolutely no way I'd go for any of the other methods. Why would you?
Download is super fast, and if you actually have problems at the end of the
download you can use rsync.
Needless to say, this point is moot since we've actually since the contrary in
our very raw environment. Fedora had very good things to say about it, but
there was plenty of first-hand experience for opensuse users in #suse. It was
tested, it was proven that it can work very very well.
Regards,
Francis.
13 Dec
13 Dec
6:14 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Tuesday 12 December 2006 15:39, Francis Giannaros wrote:
One of main ideas of metalinks is to remove errors that are not covered with
TCP/IP transfer, so if it happens to anyone that download fails because some
server has problem, we are back to square one. The problem that you don't
want to see is that the number of successes doesn't prove that implementation
is good, and one failure proves opposite. It works the same as with software
bugs.
The wget works fine in normal traffic. It can fail if server (any on the road
from source to destination) fails, and that should be covered with metalinks.
I have no problem understanding marketing Francis, but there is marketing
and "marketing". I would like to see metalins idea presented in the way that
will satisfy not only people that click on anything clickable, but also those
that really read the page before they click.
The speed and automation are important, but not only things that help me to
accept new idea. For me is more important that metalinks clients really work
the way they should, and for that I need to know how metalinks is designend.
If you have any link to technical reference I would appreciate it.
On Monday 11 December 2006 06:31, Rajko M. wrote:
The problem is shiny doesn't go far enough.
I need more details about method, before I can say that it will work for me.
1) Project web page
http://www.metalinker.org
gives promisses in the same marketing style as menu commercial sites.
All is so great, no problems, only benefits, the life is good.
Don't be ridiculous, there's absolutely nothing wrong with shining up your
project with a nice website page. In fact that's very good. When I see a
new open source project, I'm interested in (i) what it does, (ii) how it
helps me. If you want a commercial-like website see:
http://basket.kde.org/
...and what's wrong about such sites? Absolutely nothing. You're confusing
traits that might be common to open source and commercial apps and then
necessarily associating one of them solely with the other
Commercial applications that offer empty shell wave with features and lack
details. One (not so good) screenshot and few links to clients is not enough
to present one technical idea.
3) Downloads
are verified for enhanced reliability.
-Nothing new for YaST users.
Something new for wget users.
4) No Single Point of Failure (SPOF) like FTP or
HTTP URLs.
-It showed that implementation is not that perfect and single point of
failure ruined some people experience.
Anything that comes with a lot of declarative sentences and some inserted
jokes, can't give me confidence. Jokes alone are not the problem.
That's an issue for you to take on with yourself. Needless to say I
wouldn't say this was a common trait. 5) More fault
tolerant.
-I don't need rsync to repair anything with classic methods like wget.
Rubbish. You can and do. As I said, the
idea is very attractive, but marketing isn't.
(i) there's nothing wrong with marketing. I'm not sure you really
understand the term actually, since SUSE (and every other project
practically) has marketing, but just different levels. There is absolutely
nothing inherently wrong with marketing, but only the way in which it's
delivered. Again, there's absolutely nothing striking about metalink's
marketing. The download
speed and convenient automation of process are not the only factors when
someone uses Internet as a software source.
It would be foolish to presuppose that they're not big, or rather BIG,
factors. You think I'm going to wait around at release time for a slow
torrent or a non-working main site like? Or, you think I'm going to hunt
around through a long list of mirrors, when metalink can do it all for me? At release time, now, if I wanted to get an image
straight away, there's
absolutely no way I'd go for any of the other methods. Why would you?
Download is super fast, and if you actually have problems at the end of the
download you can use rsync.
The rsync should not be necessary. It is proof that either metalink concept or
implementation is not good in all details.
BTW, I an use rsync alone and skip any repair.
Needless to say, this point is moot since we've
actually since the contrary
in our very raw environment. Fedora had very good things to say about it,
but there was plenty of first-hand experience for opensuse users in #suse.
It was tested, it was proven that it can work very very well.
Regards,
Francis.
The Fedora, #suse and any size of positive comments will not help to convince
any carefull reader. I can see only black box that sometimes fails on one of
it's important features and no one can tell why.
I would like that metalinks works perfectly and to be what web site is
promising, fine complement to present file transfer options that we have
right now. The speed improvement is fine, but now developers have to see why
it failed and how to skip rsync phase in the future.
--
Regards, Rajko.
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14 Dec
14 Dec
12:45 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
On Wednesday 13 December 2006 05:14, Rajko M. wrote:
Commercial applications that offer empty shell wave
with features and lack
details. One (not so good) screenshot and few links to clients is not
enough to present one technical idea.
The proposition that it offers empty shell wave features is completely
unjustified. It quite clearly claims *what* it offers and how. Whether it
delivers on all of the points is perhaps questionable for you, but it's
emphatically clear that it does deliver on some of them.
The problem
that you don't want to see is that the number of successes doesn't prove
that implementation is good, and one failure proves opposite. It works the
same as with software bugs.
Currently this is down to the incomplete implementation in aria2, granted. But
your conclusion doesn't follow. If it works for hundreds of people then it is
most certainly a decent implementation, but not a perfect one. So currently,
we make do, and use rsync if there are any errors. You might not like it,
hundreds of other people don't mind, if it's the way to go for the
time-being.
The wget works fine in normal traffic. It can fail if
server (any on the
road from source to destination) fails, and that should be covered with
metalinks.
That's the job of the client, and it's being implemented into aria2 as we
speak I believe.
The rsync should not be necessary. It is proof that
either metalink concept
or implementation is not good in all details.
I completely agree, and it's the implementation isn't perfect yet. That
doesn't mean it's not decent.
BTW, I an use rsync alone and skip any repair.
Which leaves you with (i) looking through some 51 mirrors to find a fast one,
or (ii) dealing with an incredibly low download speed. Not a solution in my
opinion, for release time.
The Fedora, #suse and any size of positive comments
will not help to
convince any carefull reader. I can see only black box that sometimes
fails on one of it's important features and no one can tell why.
I'm not convinced that it's a black box: everything that's done is quite open.
aria2 is free software, and metalinks is an idea quite freely available.
There's also a difference between a "careful reader" and a "cautious
reader".
A careful reader will notice that the description doesn't provide enough
information (if it doesn't), but it's the cautious reader that goes the extra
step.
Anyhow, at the moment I think, considering all the flaws of the current
implementation, it's still hands-down the top method I'd use. I explained
why. Fastest ever download speeds, and if you use rsync it's always
guaranteed. Again, not perfect, but still very very good for me. Considering
I'd perhaps only ever have to do rsync 1 in 100 times.
I would like that metalinks works perfectly and to be
what web site is
promising, fine complement to present file transfer options that we have
right now. The speed improvement is fine, but now developers have to see
why it failed and how to skip rsync phase in the future.
Agreed.
Regards,
Francis.
9 Dec
9 Dec
8:51 a.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
Carlos E. R. a écrit :
No, it is slow: my torrent download is going slow: 58%
in 22 hours... ie,
less than 30 KB/S avg, a third of my bandwidth. This matchs what you say,
that you see more clients. And remember, adsl is asymetric, we can not
seed as fast as we download.
I know (I have 10/1Mb), I mean only the numbers are
encreasing, so there is more interest, but the ration
dl/seed is not enough :-(, may be because one needs to
install on his only computer (not anybody have 4 computers
at home as I do :-()
jdd
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4 Dec
4 Dec
7:44 p.m.
New subject: [opensuse-project] Site going down at release - solution
sorry, bad link in previous mail :-(
opensuse users, read ahead :-) thanks
Anthony Bryan a écrit :
What I was proposing on the list (maybe not explicit
enough) was that the site goes into crisis mode. Only
list metalinks and torrents, and rely on p2p/mirrors to
distribute the ISOs. Either stop the main site from ISO
downloads, or severely limit it so the site can stay up.
Only list the most important info.
to be practical, I propose that you spread this very post. I
already crosspost to opensuse list. Here are the
instruction, feel freee to edit is I made any mistake.
If you have problems joining the opensuse.org site or any
mirror during the first days of the 10.2 release, there is a
solution.
The solution is to use metalink. This utility, in very short
summary, make a balance between all the available ftp
sources and allows you to download from the better one.
as long as the site is available you can look at
http://en.opensuse.org/Released_Version#Metalink
The .metalink file is approximately like a torrent file,
very small and easy to catch.
you need a metalink client, there are many for any system
(for example aria2 or wxDownload).
then look at
http://download.packages.ro/metalink/opensuse/
with your browser. This ftp is _not_ a opensuse mirror, so
should not be down
test your system with the 10.2 rc1, for example. GM and 10.2
are not yet functional, but will be asap (the dec 7)
enjoy :-)
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6:57 p.m.
Hello,
Am Samstag, 2. Dezember 2006 13:10 schrieb Francis Giannaros:
Are there any extra measures in place to prevent
opensuse.org going
down before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
IMHO the proposal I made after the last downtime would still be a good
idea:
- wget -r all wikis
- excluding "index.php?..." because page history etc. is not really
needed if the server is more or less down
- to avoid misunderstandings: to be done _once_ by SUSE team, not by
everybody reading this mail ;-)
- if the server load is too high, replace the "real" wiki with the
static copy from wget.
The static copy will be read-only of course, but still has all
information available. That's much better than the "we are DOSed by our
own success" page you used last time ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz
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Das absolute Highlight war die Erklärung der Unterschiede von Floppy-
und Hard-Disk: Floppy-Disks sind die 5 1/4" Zoll Disketten, weil die
biegsam sind, Hard-Disks sind die 3 1/2" Disketten, weil die ne harte
Hülle haben ;-) [Manfred Tremmel in suse-laptop]
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7:22 p.m.
Christian Boltz a écrit :
Hello,
Am Samstag, 2. Dezember 2006 13:10 schrieb Francis Giannaros:
very good idea
jdd
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Are there any extra measures in place to prevent
opensuse.org going
down before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
IMHO the proposal I made after the last downtime would still be a good
idea:
- wget -r all wikis
- excluding "index.php?..." because page history etc. is not really
needed if the server is more or less down
- to avoid misunderstandings: to be done _once_ by SUSE team, not by
everybody reading this mail ;-)
- if the server load is too high, replace the "real" wiki with the
static copy from wget.
The static copy will be read-only of course, but still has all
information available. That's much better than the "we are DOSed by our
own success" page you used last time ;-)
Regards,
Christian Boltz 
10:37 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 02, 2006 at 12:10:20PM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
Are there any extra measures in place to prevent
opensuse.org going down
before the official 10.2 announcement, because of the hype?
You may rest assured that we will take appropriate measures to deal with the
anticipated "hype" ;)
Best,
Christoph
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5132
days inactive
5169
days old
45 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
Andreas Jaeger -
Anthony Bryan -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Christoph Thiel -
Darryl Gregorash -
Francis Giannaros -
Gerald Pfeifer -
houghi -
James Tremblay -
jdd sur free -
Peter Flodin -
Rajko M. -
Stephan Binner