Hi, Am 8. November 2019 11:15:14 MEZ schrieb Stasiek Michalski :

On the elections website it lists 491 voters.

ah okay. Thank you. Regards, Christian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Christian, There were 491 eligible voters out of which 267 have cast their vote. Regards, Ish Sookun On 11/8/19 2:12 PM, Christian Imhorst wrote:

Hi Ish,

thank you very mich for the results and your work.

We have 267 votes but can you say something about the electoral participation? How many eligible voters/members do we have?

Regards Christian

Am 8. November 2019 10:04:48 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun :

...

Dear all,

The vote has ended and the results have been released.

Do we change the project name?

Yes 42 No 225

Regards,

Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am Freitag, 8. November 2019, 12:20:32 CET schrieb Cy O'Hara:

For me, very disappointed to find that my excelent 32 bit laptop can no longer have openSuse. Any hope for the future?

Use Tumbleweed. I have it running on a ASUS eePC 901. Works well /Ax -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi all, just a line to say that I apologise for entering your thread, but realise that opensuse is what I am looking for and will continue to find a way in to achieve that. Kind regards to you all. Cy

On 8 Nov 2019, at 11:20, Cy O'Hara <0rbitpower2@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

For me, very disappointed to find that my excelent 32 bit laptop can no longer have openSuse. Any hope for the future?

Regards to all,

Cy

...

On 8 Nov 2019, at 11:02, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hi Christian,

There were 491 eligible voters out of which 267 have cast their vote.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

On 11/8/19 2:12 PM, Christian Imhorst wrote:

...

Hi Ish,

thank you very mich for the results and your work.

We have 267 votes but can you say something about the electoral participation? How many eligible voters/members do we have?

Regards Christian

Am 8. November 2019 10:04:48 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun :

...

Dear all,

The vote has ended and the results have been released.

Do we change the project name?

Yes 42 No 225

Regards,

Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/12/19 10:00 PM, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 12/11/2019 à 12:09, Cy O'Hara a écrit :

...

Hi all, just a line to say that I apologise for entering your thread, but realise that opensuse is what I am looking for and will continue to find a way in to achieve that.

don't worry, you are welcome

the better mailing list is probably "opensuse@opensuse.org"

link to subscribe on the left

https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/

see you there :-) jdd

A better list again maybe opensuse-support@opensuse.org which focuses on support questions. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Hi Ish, thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much but expected I suppose. Regards, Christian Am 8. November 2019 12:02:56 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun :

Hi Christian,

There were 491 eligible voters out of which 267 have cast their vote.

Regards,

Ish Sookun

...

Hi Ish,

thank you very mich for the results and your work.

We have 267 votes but can you say something about the electoral

On 11/8/19 2:12 PM, Christian Imhorst wrote: participation? How many eligible voters/members do we have?

...

Regards Christian

Am 8. November 2019 10:04:48 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun

:

...

...

Dear all,

The vote has ended and the results have been released.

Do we change the project name?

Yes 42 No 225

Regards,

Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/11/19 1:56 am, Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 08/11/2019 15.50, Christian Imhorst wrote:

...

...

Hi Christian,

There were 491 eligible voters out of which 267 have cast their vote.

Am 8. November 2019 12:02:56 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun : thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much but expected I suppose. If the blank vote were included, the participation would have been bigge r.

I doubt it. If one was reading the thread concerning the misdirected need to vote on a name change then, and provided the person was interested enough, they would have voted -- presumably in the negative. At the last elections for the Board there were 237 votes cast and there were 400 eligible voters. 59% "voter turnout" for elections, and 54.4% "turnout" for the present ballot. And this is rather interesting in itself: the number of 'members' increased by 91 persons (23%) and yet the voting percentage dropped by 5%. BC -- A quick survey at this office revealed that the preferred method of getting rid of unwanted pubic hair is to use dental floss. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Basil Chupin composed on 2019-11-09 15:57 (UTC+1100):

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

If the blank vote were included, the participation would have been bigger.

I doubt it.

I'm confident more than just Patrick, Carlos and myself would have cast a vote of neither had the opportunity been presented. I've never liked the choice of name for 10.2. Yet, absent a proposed name, the fear is that of the unknown, the likelihood of an even worse name choice on top of the considerable cost of making a change. Much as I dislike the current name, I dislike name changes more. I'm glad the actual vote was so clearly for the status quo. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 15:57:37 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

I doubt it. If one was reading the thread concerning the misdirected need to vote on a name change then, and provided the person was interested enough, they would have voted -- presumably in the negative.

*sigh* Emphatically no. My concerns were not addressed, so I did not vote. Had my concerns been addressed, I may have voted yes, or I may have voted no. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/11/2019 13.31, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hi Jim,

On 11/10/19 12:10 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Emphatically no. My concerns were not addressed, so I did not vote.

Had my concerns been addressed, I may have voted yes, or I may have voted no.

The mailing list thread existed to address concerns. You could keep asking questions until all your concerns are addressed for you to be able to settle on a "Yes" or "No" answer.

No. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXcgD+QAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1ZYaAJ9yx+KcgG/0Nznk+agSLLrotL21+QCdEKHtpPcGjqJt4f731COXiDFi/yE= =lpvX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am Montag, 11. November 2019, 04:10:36 CET schrieb Jim Henderson:

On Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:31:07 +0400, Ish Sookun wrote:

...

Hi Jim,

On 11/10/19 12:10 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Emphatically no. My concerns were not addressed, so I did not vote.

Had my concerns been addressed, I may have voted yes, or I may have voted no.

The mailing list thread existed to address concerns. You could keep asking questions until all your concerns are addressed for you to be able to settle on a "Yes" or "No" answer.

I *did* continue asking questions. Nobody responded to them.

So I gave up. I have better things to do than to keep saying the same thing over and over and be ignored.

I finally settled on "if I don't get an answer to this, I'll just STFU." And I didn't get an answer. Nobody addressed my questions of concerns. NOBODY.

Sorry Jim, but this is not true. Many questions were raised and answered in these 42.000 mails on this thread. And a separate Wiki page was set up to address pros and cons. Answering the same questions over and over does not help anyone.

I explained why it was not feasible to decide "yes" or "no" without knowing what we might potentially change the name to. I repeatedly said that that *mattered*, and nobody tried to understand.

That was a discussion inside the board as well, and the decision was to not have a bunch of offerings, which in doubt would have not been the right names anyway. It would have been an additional 42.000 mails (at least...) on the discussion which name to chose. A never ending story. The poll may have had weaknesses, but the result is a clear one, and we can look forward to the work related to the founding of a legal entity Best Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/9/19 3:27 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 9/11/19 1:56 am, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

On 08/11/2019 15.50, Christian Imhorst wrote:

...

...

Hi Christian,

There were 491 eligible voters out of which 267 have cast their vote.

Am 8. November 2019 12:02:56 MEZ schrieb Ish Sookun : thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much  but expected I suppose. If the blank vote were included, the participation would have been bigge r.

I doubt it. If one was reading the thread concerning the misdirected need to vote on a name change then, and provided the person was interested enough, they would have voted -- presumably in the negative.

At the last elections for the Board there were 237 votes cast and there were 400 eligible voters. 59% "voter turnout" for elections, and 54.4% "turnout" for the present ballot.

And this is rather interesting in itself: the number of 'members' increased by 91 persons (23%) and yet the voting percentage dropped by 5%.

On the other hand we haven't gone through and cleaned up the membership list to remove "inactive" members for a couple of years now so you'd expect some decline on that side, from talking to the membership officials it would also be reasonable to presume that many of the new 20% care about issues related to name / foundation and this is why they decided to become members. At the same time some existing members may not feel strongly enough to vote or may trust the rest of the community to make what will be the right decision in the end. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Am Freitag, 8. November 2019, 16:09:37 CET schrieb Axel Braun:

...

thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much but expected I suppose.

I'd say that it's pretty much an average amount.

The result is that 84% of the voters want to keep openSUSE, and this is a clear vote to my understanding.

Second that. And though my position is on the "losing" side I'm happy that the result is that clear. Anything close to 50-60% just might have re-sparked the discussion. Regards, vinz.

Hello Axel, Am 8. November 2019 16:09:37 MEZ schrieb Axel Braun :

The result is that 84% of the voters want to keep openSUSE, and this is a clear vote to my understanding. So we (the board) will continue with the next steps in direction of a legal structure for the openSUSE project.

Yes, exactly. The result is clear and I am happy with it. I am looking forward to the next steps. :-) Have a lot of fun, Christian -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Axel Braun [11-08-19 10:10]:

Hello Christian,

Am Freitag, 8. November 2019, 15:50:02 CET schrieb Christian Imhorst:

...

thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much but expected I suppose.

Vote participations are always a topics for itself...be it a political vote or a name change vote. IMO, if you have the option to vote, it is a implicit duty to do so. If you cant vote, like in many countries around the world, you will much more feel the wish to vote and influence the result. Every vote counts!

The result is that 84% of the voters want to keep openSUSE, and this is a clear vote to my understanding. So we (the board) will continue with the next steps in direction of a legal structure for the openSUSE project.

Personally I feel that the result is 'good', as openSUSE is a strong and well known brand.

while I personally want to keep the present "openSUSE" moniker, basing anything on the vote results is critically flawed as Carlos and I mentioned earlier and in related threads. Those choosing not to vote as no agreeable option was presented skews the results and no-one can determine the true wants of the community. The *only* thing you can report is that OF THE PEOPLE VOTING, 84% opted to keep openSUSE. you would get a similar and worthless result if only three poeple voted and two opted to keep the name. In the future, if a vote is proposed, at least determine what is necessary to display the wants of the community as nearly as possible rather than ONLY the desires of those choosing to vote. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Knurpht-openSUSE [11-08-19 12:00]:

Op vrijdag 8 november 2019 17:49:46 CET schreef Patrick Shanahan:

...

while I personally want to keep the present "openSUSE" moniker, basing anything on the vote results is critically flawed as Carlos and I mentioned earlier and in related threads. Those choosing not to vote as no agreeable option was presented skews the results and no-one can determine the true wants of the community. The *only* thing you can report is that OF THE PEOPLE VOTING, 84% opted to keep openSUSE. you would get a similar and worthless result if only three poeple voted and two opted to keep the name.

In the future, if a vote is proposed, at least determine what is necessary to display the wants of the community as nearly as possible rather than ONLY the desires of those choosing to vote.

Can we read this as your stepping up as a future election-official? Apparently they missed your wisdom.

My *wisdon* was imparted in great detail in many instances and prior to the poll presentation and request for votes and my several other users. It would probably be sufficient to announce a pending poll/vote with requests for definition here. the *glaring* omission invalidating the subject vote was explained in great detail before the first and second offering for a vote. and was debated and ignored. an *opinion* poll is worthless unless options are provided to include all wanting to vote and results are worthless without those options. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/9/19 5:33 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Knurpht-openSUSE [11-08-19 12:00]:

...

Op vrijdag 8 november 2019 17:49:46 CET schreef Patrick Shanahan:

...

while I personally want to keep the present "openSUSE" moniker, basing anything on the vote results is critically flawed as Carlos and I mentioned earlier and in related threads. Those choosing not to vote as no agreeable option was presented skews the results and no-one can determine the true wants of the community. The *only* thing you can report is that OF THE PEOPLE VOTING, 84% opted to keep openSUSE. you would get a similar and worthless result if only three poeple voted and two opted to keep the name.

In the future, if a vote is proposed, at least determine what is necessary to display the wants of the community as nearly as possible rather than ONLY the desires of those choosing to vote.

...

Can we read this as your stepping up as a future election-official? Apparently they missed your wisdom.

an *opinion* poll is worthless unless options are provided to include all wanting to vote and results are worthless without those options.

Why would you vote in an *opinion* poll if you yourself have decided that forever reason you do not have an *opinion*, the *opinions* we were after were to change or not change, and it is clear that the opinion of most is not to change so now the board is off to try our best to make that work. Having 5-50 votes saying unsure / I abstain / whatever other thing you wanted to say wouldn't have made any difference to the way the board interprets the result. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/11/19 1:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 12:48:03 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

Having 5-50 votes saying unsure / I abstain / whatever other thing you wanted to say wouldn't have made any difference to the way the board interprets the result.

It would make a difference to those of us voting that we are abstaining.

As many people didn't vote as voted no.

A similar number of people voted in this vote as previous board elections so it would be reasonable to presume that a significant percentage of the people that didn't vote either don't like voting or are inactive.

If more people had voted "present" than had voted "yes", that would tell everyone something about the vote.

Fortunately in this case most people we expected to vote did if 100-150 less people voted then I think that would tell us something.

But instead, nobody was interested in listening to those of us making that point, so more than a couple of us simply DID NOT VOTE because our concerns were not addressed.

Not voting is a perfectly valid choice.

And now we're being told that our vote wouldn't have mattered - which is precisely the point.

I asked questions *repeatedly* and explained why the information provided (even after the wiki update) was insufficent for me to be able to decide on a yes/no vote here, because the name we would change to *matters* to me for making up my opinion.

If the proposed name was, I don't know, "GoatSe Linux", I'd vote emphatically NO, because that would be a stupid and offensive name.

If the proposed name was "Chameleon Linux" - I probably would have voted "yes".

But nobody cared enough to address that concern. So I didn't vote.

That is perfectly fair, I did mention somewhere on a list at some point that it would probably be advantagious for those keen on changing the name to put together a possible short list of possible options that didn't likely have domain / trademark issues as people may be more likely to support a name change if they saw something they liked. But no one took the initiative to do that. Personally I didn't because personally i'm in favor of keeping the current name if possible. Either way the result we have is that most people want to stick with openSUSE regardless of the alternatives that may have been proposed so now we can stop thinking about changing the name and move to trying our best to come up with a solution for the foundation that means it has access to the name as needed. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/11/19 2:27 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 14:04:04 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

...

And now we're being told that our vote wouldn't have mattered - which is precisely the point.

I asked questions *repeatedly* and explained why the information provided (even after the wiki update) was insufficent for me to be able to decide on a yes/no vote here, because the name we would change to *matters* to me for making up my opinion.

If the proposed name was, I don't know, "GoatSe Linux", I'd vote emphatically NO, because that would be a stupid and offensive name.

If the proposed name was "Chameleon Linux" - I probably would have voted "yes".

But nobody cared enough to address that concern. So I didn't vote.

That is perfectly fair, I did mention somewhere on a list at some point that it would probably be advantagious for those keen on changing the name to put together a possible short list of possible options that didn't likely have domain / trademark issues as people may be more likely to support a name change if they saw something they liked. But no one took the initiative to do that. Personally I didn't because personally i'm in favor of keeping the current name if possible.

One of the points of holding a leadership position is (in my view) is to make sure things are handled properly - separating oneself and one's own views from ensuring the process is handled correctly and equitably to all is something that I would consider an important characteristic of someone in a leadership position.

There's an issue of fundamental fairness, along with holding an official position of impartiality in the decision-making process when a vote takes place.

Respectfully, I don't think it's reasonable to abrogate one's responsibility as a community leader just because of a personally-held opinion about how a vote should go.

While I thought that the argument for changing the name could be enhanced with a list of suggested proposals I didn't believe the vote would be inherently unfair without it. Hence suggesting the idea but not going forward with it.

...

Either way the result we have is that most people want to stick with openSUSE regardless of the alternatives that may have been proposed so now we can stop thinking about changing the name and move to trying our best to come up with a solution for the foundation that means it has access to the name as needed.

Like I said - those of us who didn't have enough information don't get a voice. Had I had sufficient information to make an informed vote, I would have.

I'm fine with not changing the name. I'm just really disappointed in the process here, because I feel my vote didn't count because I wasn't provided an opportunity to formally express that opinion in the vote itself.

I'm not saying that you personally should have put together a list of prospective names. I'm saying the vote shouldn't even have been held until options had been discussed and put forward as options. Perhaps also what I'm saying is that until those concerns that were raised were addressed, it's incumbent on the community leadership to do what they can to ensure that everyone's voice is heard (not just the voices the leadership personally agrees with) when issues are raised. That plainly didn't happen here, and that's the source of my disappointment in the process.

I did raise this in a board meeting, but the decision was made that given the vote was holding up the foundation process we didn't want to wait for proposals for a new name to be collected and vetted before proceeding with the vote and that rather we would have a two stage process given that most responses on the mailing list had been either clearly in favor of changing regardless of the new name or not changing. So in this case the board listened to you (as with those who wanted a abstain option) and decided against them in this case. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Hello Ish, Do we have a date of when the voting process will start? Cheers, Chittesh On 11/12/19 9:38 AM, Ish Sookun wrote:

Hi Jim,

On 11/11/19 7:14 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

If the proposed name was, I don't know, "GoatSe Linux", I'd vote emphatically NO, because that would be a stupid and offensive name.

If the proposed name was "Chameleon Linux" - I probably would have voted "yes". Several people explained that the vote process will be in two phases. If in the first members decided to change the name then we would have gone with a "call for proposed names". The board would have then vetted those names and the Election Committee be called to carry the second vote.

We could have a list of dozens of names with a "none of the above" option.

But you seem to insist on settling on the project names first and then carry a vote.

Regards,

Ish Sookun -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:38:52 +0400, Ish Sookun wrote:

But you seem to insist on settling on the project names first and then carry a vote.

I explained my reasoning many times, so I'm not going to rehash it again. -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

* Simon Lees [11-08-19 18:15]:

On 11/9/19 3:19 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Axel Braun [11-08-19 10:10]:

...

Hello Christian,

Am Freitag, 8. November 2019, 15:50:02 CET schrieb Christian Imhorst:

...

thank you! Then we had an electoral participation of 54%. Mmmh, not much but expected I suppose.

Vote participations are always a topics for itself...be it a political vote or a name change vote. IMO, if you have the option to vote, it is a implicit duty to do so. If you cant vote, like in many countries around the world, you will much more feel the wish to vote and influence the result. Every vote counts!

The result is that 84% of the voters want to keep openSUSE, and this is a clear vote to my understanding. So we (the board) will continue with the next steps in direction of a legal structure for the openSUSE project.

Personally I feel that the result is 'good', as openSUSE is a strong and well known brand.

while I personally want to keep the present "openSUSE" moniker, basing anything on the vote results is critically flawed as Carlos and I mentioned earlier and in related threads. Those choosing not to vote as no agreeable option was presented skews the results and no-one can determine the true wants of the community. The *only* thing you can report is that OF THE PEOPLE VOTING, 84% opted to keep openSUSE. you would get a similar and worthless result if only three poeple voted and two opted to keep the name.

While the running of this vote had some issues, I don't think any of them being handled differently would have lead to 180 more people voting or changing there vote which is around what would have been needed for it to be close. But I agree if the vote was much closer it would be hard to pull meaning out of it.

As a member of the board, I have to say I still have no idea how you expect me to interpret "abstain" or "neither". I am only really interested in the change vs no change as long as we got atleast the usual number of voters. if we were 100 or so down on what we see at board elections then yeah i'd have more questions.

to determine per cent for or another you ignore the possibility that there might be a third option (or more) which is not presented. anyone deciding neither of the presented options as desirable will not be counted as voting or interested. that skews the per cent for or against, ie: 120 vote for 50 vote against 20 abstain as no desired option presented which gives: 63% for 120/190 rather than: 71% for 120/170 to be clear, the final outcome of the vote is as I desire but may not be representative of the community as a whole. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/11/2019 08.05, jdd@dodin.org wrote:

Le 09/11/2019 à 01:34, Patrick Shanahan a écrit :

...

to determine per cent for or another you ignore the possibility that there might be a third option (or more) which is not presented. anyone deciding

some subjects (as IMHO the one of this vote) do need a yes/no answer and a third option don't have any meaning

Of course it has meaning. You may choose to disregard it, or you may inquire what that meaning be. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXcaS0QAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1VI+AJ0QGUCd0J5pGXkweEKcfQhXpCKOEQCghbPNZXRq1gfcDMdhThCKMRwnR6o= =pvce -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/11/2019 06.20, Basil Chupin wrote:

On 9/11/19 3:49 am, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

...

* Axel Braun <> [11-08-19 10:10]:

...

Am Freitag, 8. November 2019, 15:50:02 CET schrieb Christian Imhorst:

...

In the future, if a vote is proposed, at least determine what is necessary to display the wants of the community as nearly as possible rather than ONLY the desires of those choosing to vote.

"... the wants of the community ..."?

You CANNOT get a really sensible result when you are using non-statistical methods to determine a "policy", so to speak.

If the Board got rid of the playtime rule about who can become a "member" and gave the membership to everyone who was using openSUSE/Tumbleweed on a regular basis (yes, I know, you want to know how this is to be determined) then you would be getting close to having a complete 'population', or at least know what the complete population may be, who would potentially be the pool of voters. Right now you have 491 voters and you think that this is the total sum of people who use openSUSE/Tumbleweed and excitement when one gets 267 persons to cast a vote.

Nobody really believes that a handful of only 491 "members" using openSUSE/Tumbleweed represents "the community", do they?

Indeed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXcaTZwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1UVaAJ9SLShaQHsdBobbFNyH6NGNd1QoUQCdEjy5rYGVsJUfUoB75fyl2MzTMO8= =KhwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Am 09.11.19 um 11:56 schrieb jdd@dodin.org:

Le 09/11/2019 à 06:20, Basil Chupin a écrit :

...

If the Board got rid of the playtime rule about who can become a "member" and gave the membership to everyone who was using

IMHO, they are several ways to work.

* "members" are asked to be openSUSE effective workers. The main (only?) goal is to elect the board. May be there a blank vote can be added to the candidate list (but I'm not in favor of this).

* for such thing as the fundation name (I don't want to discuss again the project name), a poll open to any reader here (only one vote per IP) should be enough, or may be better

Giving name to something that doesn't exist can be a popularity contest - fine. But if work is derived from a vote, it makes 100% sense to ask the active part of the community. And the set of members is the best analogy we have. Greetings, Stephan -- Lighten up, just enjoy life, smile more, laugh more, and don't get so worked up about things. Kenneth Branagh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On 11/9/19 3:50 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:

Nobody really believes that a handful of only 491 "members" using openSUSE/Tumbleweed represents "the community", do they?

To a large extent I do at least to a "reasonable extent", one of the roles of a package maintainer is to represent the views / wishes of the users of said package within the distro, they are in essence the connecting bridge between users and the distro. Similarly forum moderators at least from my experience generally represent the views of those on the forums they moderate (or atleast consider them anyway) and you could take that analogy forward to many of the other people who are members. In recent years membership has been opened up to practically anyone who is contributing to the project in some way, personally I think this is quite a reasonable place to draw the line, the people eligible for membership have all invested some time in the project as some would say they all have some form of "Skin in the Game" Opening a vote up to anyone is unlikely to be any fairer, they often open themselves up to social media campaigns and people getting friends of friends to vote. We also can't really guarantee to reach every user. Similarly it would be nearly impossible to create a system that verifies that people who claim to be users are actually users and not just someones friend etc. On the other hand under the current system if a long term user is passionate about having a say, its likely not hard for them to start contributing in some minor way from support to documentation which would make them eligible for membership and therefore to vote. So while our current system may not be a 100% exact representation of the community, its likely the most accurate we can come up with. Along with the fact that while there was enough support for change that this process was worth while the result was really quite clear and the actual exact values don't matter that much in our decision making beyond the "clearly the community that voted wants to keep the existing name" -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/9/19 2:52 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

Thanks Ish and the whole Election Team for their excellent work.

With this overwhelming vote in favour of keeping the name, I'd like the Board to address the following questions opened by this decision.

What sort of agreement (contract/trademark pact/copyright ownership, etc) will the Board seek with SUSE LLC to ensure the openSUSE Project will be able to continue using the term openSUSE?

What limitations will SUSE LLC impose on openSUSE as part of that agreement?

What assurances/legal guarantees will openSUSE have that SUSE LLC will not be able to change the terms or conductions of the above aggreement?

As you are well aware the board will now work through all these issues now that we know what the community wants, due to other issues we have been dealing with we haven't spent much time on it in recent. It should be worth noting as repeated many times during the discussion, currently the board see's no Legal reason why these questions couldn't be settled in a way that works well for openSUSE. Going the opposite way if the board can't get a satisfactory resolution to these question it is still possible we may propose creating the foundation under a different name and choosing not to rebrand any of the rest of project at this stage. But given the outcome of this vote I imagine that is almost certainly the board's least preferred option. Now we have a result the board will be able to start working through this. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/10/19 6:38 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

And non-voting was 224.

That's pretty telling, because at least some of us who didn't vote explicitly didn't vote because our questions about the vote were not addressed.

Given previous history of activity from Board elections since we did the membership cleanup 224 non-voting is around the same or slightly less then board elections. So its not really that telling it seems reasonably consistent with the number of inactive / are members for other reasons such as mail alias's then choose not to vote / forgot / didn't have time.

Do we know how many people changed their vote after the wiki page was updated with more information?

As we use a good secure voting system it is impossible to see who voted for what during the progress we can only see the number of people who have voted at any point. But as an indication most of the people who ended up voting had already voted atleast once before we created the wiki page, just before is the only time Ish communicated with the board the number of people who had already voted. Given at that point it was around what I expected I wasn't too concerned about asking for updates.

Do we have any information about why anyone who changed their vote did so (I'm going to guess no, but who knows? Maybe we have some solid information about why people who changed their votes did).

The voting system doesn't ask 'why are you changing your vote' so beyond what is said on mailing lists we have no way of knowing. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 11/11/19 1:49 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019 09:48:00 +1030, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On 11/10/19 6:38 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

And non-voting was 224.

That's pretty telling, because at least some of us who didn't vote explicitly didn't vote because our questions about the vote were not addressed.

Given previous history of activity from Board elections since we did the membership cleanup 224 non-voting is around the same or slightly less then board elections. So its not really that telling it seems reasonably consistent with the number of inactive / are members for other reasons such as mail alias's then choose not to vote / forgot / didn't have time.

Hard to say, though, for sure; maybe this would have inspired more to vote than a board election. We don't really know - it's just a guess.

...

...

Do we know how many people changed their vote after the wiki page was updated with more information?

As we use a good secure voting system it is impossible to see who voted for what during the progress we can only see the number of people who have voted at any point. But as an indication most of the people who ended up voting had already voted atleast once before we created the wiki page, just before is the only time Ish communicated with the board the number of people who had already voted. Given at that point it was around what I expected I wasn't too concerned about asking for updates.

Obviously we wouldn't know *who* changed their vote. I'm asking if the system tracks numbers of people who changed their vote (or indeed, when they voted during the polling period). I don't know the software.

...

...

Do we have any information about why anyone who changed their vote did so (I'm going to guess no, but who knows? Maybe we have some solid information about why people who changed their votes did).

The voting system doesn't ask 'why are you changing your vote' so beyond what is said on mailing lists we have no way of knowing.

Naturally. We might be able to make an educated guess based on when, but I guess the software we use doesn't track that information.

So basically, what I'm hearing, is that we opened a vote, we didn't provide sufficient information before polling opened for everyone to make an informed vote. We tried to address that (not to everyone's satisfaction - a factual assertion because it wasn't addressed to *my* satisfaction), allowed people to change their vote - but don't have any way of knowing if the additional information affected anyone's vote, and we're happy to leave the decision as it stands because our best guess is that the people who didn't vote don't generally care enough to vote anyways in other elections, so who cares?

Not quite, had the result been significantly closer the board likely wouldn't have taken this result as final and likely would have explored ways to get more feedback, but given that 45% of registered members voted to keep the name as is, it is hugely unlikely that any change we made to the process would have resulted in an additional 200 or 80% of people who didn't vote voting for yes without any voting for no or a similar number of people changing there minds from don't change to change. That is in the ball park of what would have been required for the vote to be close. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Mon 2019-11-11, Jim Henderson wrote:

I'm asking if the system tracks numbers of people who changed their vote (or indeed, when they voted during the polling period). I don't know the software.

Tracking (or being able to track) whether or when someone changed their vote would mean the system is not as safe and confidential as possible. It's one of those things I'd love to do (being curious and interested), but happy we cannot (from the perspective of having confidential and secure voting). On Mon 2019-11-11, Jim Henderson wrote:

Bottom line: Nobody knows why those 224 people didn't vote; we can only guess. It may well have been apathy, it may well have been insufficient information to make an informed vote.

That's the same for any of our board elections or any vote in "physical" life. I have indicated I'll propose to add an abstain option to future votes and I'll do that. And I have some further ideas on votes (this being our first outside of board elections) which I plan on putting forward. (None of that is going to give us clarity on individual motivation to vote one way or another or abstain or not at all in the end. That, as much as I do care, which is a lot, is not reasonably addressable.) Gerald -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11/11/2019 23.46, Fraser_Bell wrote:

This discussion distresses me to no end.

It is quite simple: Some openSUSE people suggested changing the name. In democratic fashion, a vote was launched to let them make their case, and for the openSUSE Community to weigh the pros and cons. ... and then vote. Vote was held. Results were "Do not change the name".

Nothing could be simpler.

I have been busy with my Music and Recording Career, so not as absorbed in the Project as in the past, nor as absorbed as most of you on this list.

Coming in from a somewhat "Outside" perspective, all I see in this mailing list is absurdities, convoluted thinking patterns, and absolute nonsense.

This mailing list, and the silliness in this particular topic, is enough to make me not really want to be part of this Project.

Is that what we are trying to do, here? Drive potential members away?

Well, the fact that I could not cast a blank vote distresses me to no en d. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.1 x86_64 at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQQZEb51mJKK1KpcU/W1MxgcbY1H1QUCXcqXkwAKCRC1MxgcbY1H 1aTYAJ932trckHm1E1pKSQcPxansTrGi7ACffZUvRda6XLznP9isLizzLtsEnAI= =ZmTH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org