As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it is necessary to attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a response in kind or no response at all.
I never said I "feel it is necessary to attack people and to be rude". I'm not even sure where you got that from. The thing is that you already took a vehement bias against me because you are buddy buddy with Henne, so it's certainly not surprising getting this long and defensive email that you've written. The point is that clamping down on email exchanges because some thin-skinned people get offended easily if they're critiqued doesn't help the project, it only hurts it. It makes people look for other projects where you aren't backed into a corner out of fear of not pleasing somebody or saying the wrong thing. And this is an email list, not a forum; two vastly different things that should be managed differently.
Insulting the whole project is not really going to win you much sympathy. We try to be kind to each other, see the openSUSE Project Guiding Principles
I'm not insulting the entire project. You took what I said as an insult. There's a difference. I'm not trying to win sympathy, so I'm not sure where that statement comes from. I wrote my original email here because of Henne's trollish tactics and because he never responded to me as to why my emails were being blocked. It wasn't to gain sympathy.
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Guiding_principles
While bikeshedding and flame wars cannot always be avoided we try very hard not to let these things get out of hand. Calling people names is at best immature behavior and definitely goes against the spirit of the openSUSE Guiding Principles. Personal attacks via name calling has no place on the openSUSE mailing lists.
It is not censorship. These are the guidelines we as the openSUSE community have agreed to abide by. No one is forced to participate in the project. However, those that do are expected to follow the guidelines we as a project have established. If people choose not to abide by those guidelines it is our option to remove those people from the mailing lists.
Oh, and before I forget we also have some guidelines about response style for the mailing lists:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette
Generally top posting is discouraged.
Gmail does top posting by default and it can't be shut off. In the future I plan on using a better method (email client) Sorry.
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am not certain that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be helpful.
I'm not saying to put all 300 contributors' info on the page. What I'm saying is to make the contact info readily available and easy to access. "Contact Us" at the bottom of the main page is what's needed -- not forcing somebody to navigate through the entire mess of different openSUSE fragmented social networks, wikis, and other out-of-date pages. One person in this thread already agreed with me that this is an issue, and there's obviously a silent majority here that doesn't speak English very well or doesn't want to get involved in the exchange. There is an issue here, but the openSUSE way seems to be to just sweep it under the rug and let it go another 5 years without actually doing something about it.
I agree, people do have the right to know who maintains the packages. However, we as a project get to choose how this information is made available. Our tool to build the distribution is the openSUSE Build service (build.opensuse.org) and within it all the information about every package that is part of the distribution and any package that is being built with the build service is available.
For openSUSE 13.2 you can for example find everything here:
Then that policy needs to be changed. If you are in a position where other people are relying on packages that you maintain or on software that you are patching and/or creating, then your information needs to be public. Period. Right now the fragmented openSUSE project is more concerned with micromanaging the email list, which, by the way, isn't all that busy to begin with. Sour grapes? Also, I could just CC all the people I want to contact and communicate that way if I wanted to. The fact that the final message ends up in somebody's email box gives them the choice to block a particular person, or not read and delete. With the small amount of people that post to the openSUSE email list, the last thing you want to do right now is enforce policies that appease people with thin skin. You could argue that heavy moderation is necessary because of the small amount of people posting, but I obviously will disagree here.
We are well aware that the website needs TLC, and you are welcome to contribute. The website is maintained on GitHub (https://github.com/openSUSE/www.o.o) and pull requests will be evaluated. There is currently work going on to improve the web site.
Good to hear.
Yes, we also know that the wiki search needs TLC, and again helping hands are much appreciated.
The wiki needs updating now, not tomorrow. The fact that the wiki and website is in the state that its in which any halfway intelligent person knows drives users away right away, shows that there are obvious political problems way up top. And this includes you, Robert. You should be getting a handle on the wiki and website, and organizing a plan on how to make it better. It's hard for people like me to make any recommendations when I'm blocked from posting because of a thin-skinned troll, and finding any relevant info on openSUSE's website is a chore. People need to be able to find who's who and what's what easily and immediately, without being caught up in a silly acid trip vortex of stupidly placed links. The whole point is that criticism is what leads to action, and me and you disagree on where the demarcation point is in terms of what's rude, what's a personal attack, and what isn't. And that's perfectly fine.
That may be correct. This does not imply however, that every open source project has to tolerate everything. We as the openSUSE community have chose to actively discourage such behavior on all of our mailing lists. This is not to say that it doesn't happen every now and then. However, when it does happen there are those of us who try to calm the waters and remind people why we are here. We are here to collaborate. Insulting each other is generally not conducive to collaboration.
Micromanaging the email list is a bad idea. People will come back under a different email address, or leave and then put openSUSE down when they speak of it in whatever other project they may get involved in. There are some funny email addresses (anonymous posters) that people are using like "toothpik6" and others. The point is to not make people feel the need to go into hiding, which is completely against everything I wrote above. You don't win OS market share by means of micromanagement. Repugnant insults and repeated threats or extreme disruptions, I agree, are grounds for removing somebody off the list. But a tongue-in-cheek statement or a seemingly rude statement shouldn't be. There are so many different cultures, languages, people coming from different religious backgrounds, etc., that no matter what, someone is always going to get offended. Then they can exploit openSUSE's email list micromanagement policies and stifle open communication which equates to censorship. Sometimes when people are rude they are expressing their dismay at somebody else's shortsightedness or lack of empathy and I see nothing wrong with it; sometimes people need a wake up call.
Strong criticism and personal insults are two different things. Providing feedback about someone's contribution can be strong but that does not mean it has to be negative nor should it take on a personal direction.
"Personal direction" is subjective. It goes back to the aforementioned, where someone is always going to get offended about something. http://i.imgur.com/EX5v4.jpg
Last but not least, for the record. Henne Vogelsang is NOT a troll. Henne is a well respected contributor to and member of the openSUSE project.
He seems like a troll to me, based on his behavior and trollish posts he writes on his blog where he calls people idiots and bitches, and writes posts with titles with the F word in them. I dare not write the actual F word here because my email may get blocked. Apparently that's okay, but me saying "ass" isn't. I also noticed on Henne's website someone wrote this comment: "So, Henne, if i am reading this right… Every time you kicked my ass, that was because: a) you were insecure whether you were entitled to decide something (besides kicking my ass)? b) you were insecure whether your idea would be liked? c) you were just generally insecure? I always knew it, you kicked my ass, not because that was in your jobdescription as a teamlead, but because you were insecure :p I always knew that behind that rough exterior was a small insecure boy waiting to come out :ppp" That makes me wonder how many other people have or had problems working with Henne and haven't said something yet, or have and haven't been heard. It's interesting to me that out of the paltry amount of people that comment on his boring and poorly written reads, the above quoted comment was even written. Since the openSUSE project is fairly small (always not enough heads, not enough bug testing, not enough contributors, etc.), it's interesting how that comment came out of the woodwork. The point is that with the small amount of people that he's working with, it sounds like Henne has some skeletons in his closet that he's hiding from the community.
Indeed.
It is possible, though, that he is hitting an automatic spam filter, and thus he is unable to post. And he takes this as an insult. I know that some of our lists had to implement, for some time at least, an insult filter. Our lists are not moderated (by a human), in the sense that nobody is reading all email before publishing.
If it were, his post on this list starting this thread would not have been allowed, which proves that Henne is not what he claims.
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
- -- Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
iF4EAREIAAYFAlUiepQACgkQja8UbcUWM1xF+AD+P2KE0Mnpo5tzSWygwcyRt55e Z3PMSy3AZ+i1RxNpHHsBAJjUeVfB8sSh/f6iQTna5akdlFWGc8fpMbWAxB5X666B =4IYV
I'm not hitting any automatic spam filter. I wrote a post about btrfs about 48~ hours ago and got an "awaiting moderation" message. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org