As they say, the door swings both ways. If you feel it
is necessary to
attack people and be rude I am not certain why you would not expect a
response in kind or no response at all.
I never said I "feel it is necessary to attack people and to be rude".
I'm not even sure where you got that from. The thing is that you
already took a vehement bias against me because you are buddy buddy
with Henne, so it's certainly not surprising getting this long and
defensive email that you've written. The point is that clamping down
on email exchanges because some thin-skinned people get offended
easily if they're critiqued doesn't help the project, it only hurts
it. It makes people look for other projects where you aren't backed
into a corner out of fear of not pleasing somebody or saying the wrong
thing. And this is an email list, not a forum; two vastly different
things that should be managed differently.
Insulting the whole project is not really going to win
sympathy. We try to be kind to each other, see the openSUSE Project
I'm not insulting the entire project. You took what I said as an
insult. There's a difference. I'm not trying to win sympathy, so I'm
not sure where that statement comes from. I wrote my original email
here because of Henne's trollish tactics and because he never
responded to me as to why my emails were being blocked. It wasn't to
While bikeshedding and flame wars cannot always be avoided we try very
hard not to let these things get out of hand. Calling people names is
at best immature behavior and definitely goes against the spirit of
the openSUSE Guiding Principles. Personal attacks via name calling has
no place on the openSUSE mailing lists.
It is not censorship. These are the guidelines we as the openSUSE
community have agreed to abide by. No one is forced to participate in
the project. However, those that do are expected to follow the
guidelines we as a project have established. If people choose not to
abide by those guidelines it is our option to remove those people from
the mailing lists.
Oh, and before I forget we also have some guidelines about response
style for the mailing lists:
Generally top posting is discouraged.
Gmail does top posting by default and it can't be shut off. In the
future I plan on using a better method (email client) Sorry.
We have probably 300 contributors to the project. I am
that putting every contributors name in a list on the wiki would be
I'm not saying to put all 300 contributors' info on the page. What I'm
saying is to make the contact info readily available and easy to
access. "Contact Us" at the bottom of the main page is what's needed
-- not forcing somebody to navigate through the entire mess of
different openSUSE fragmented social networks, wikis, and other
out-of-date pages. One person in this thread already agreed with me
that this is an issue, and there's obviously a silent majority here
that doesn't speak English very well or doesn't want to get involved
in the exchange. There is an issue here, but the openSUSE way seems to
be to just sweep it under the rug and let it go another 5 years
without actually doing something about it.
I agree, people do have the right to know who maintains
However, we as a project get to choose how this information is made
available. Our tool to build the distribution is the openSUSE Build
) and within it all the information about
every package that is part of the distribution and any package that is
being built with the build service is available.
For openSUSE 13.2 you can for example find everything here:
Then that policy needs to be changed. If you are in a position where
other people are relying on packages that you maintain or on software
that you are patching and/or creating, then your information needs to
be public. Period. Right now the fragmented openSUSE project is more
concerned with micromanaging the email list, which, by the way, isn't
all that busy to begin with. Sour grapes? Also, I could just CC all
the people I want to contact and communicate that way if I wanted to.
The fact that the final message ends up in somebody's email box gives
them the choice to block a particular person, or not read and delete.
With the small amount of people that post to the openSUSE email list,
the last thing you want to do right now is enforce policies that
appease people with thin skin. You could argue that heavy moderation
is necessary because of the small amount of people posting, but I
obviously will disagree here.
We are well aware that the website needs TLC, and you
are welcome to
contribute. The website is maintained on GitHub
) and pull requests will be
evaluated. There is currently work going on to improve the web site.
Good to hear.
Yes, we also know that the wiki search needs TLC, and
hands are much appreciated.
The wiki needs updating now, not tomorrow. The fact that the wiki and
website is in the state that its in which any halfway intelligent
person knows drives users away right away, shows that there are
obvious political problems way up top. And this includes you, Robert.
You should be getting a handle on the wiki and website, and organizing
a plan on how to make it better. It's hard for people like me to make
any recommendations when I'm blocked from posting because of a
thin-skinned troll, and finding any relevant info on openSUSE's
website is a chore. People need to be able to find who's who and
what's what easily and immediately, without being caught up in a silly
acid trip vortex of stupidly placed links. The whole point is that
criticism is what leads to action, and me and you disagree on where
the demarcation point is in terms of what's rude, what's a personal
attack, and what isn't. And that's perfectly fine.
That may be correct. This does not imply however, that
source project has to tolerate everything. We as the openSUSE
community have chose to actively discourage such behavior on all of
our mailing lists. This is not to say that it doesn't happen every now
and then. However, when it does happen there are those of us who try
to calm the waters and remind people why we are here. We are here to
collaborate. Insulting each other is generally not conducive to
Micromanaging the email list is a bad idea. People will come back
under a different email address, or leave and then put openSUSE down
when they speak of it in whatever other project they may get involved
in. There are some funny email addresses (anonymous posters) that
people are using like "toothpik6" and others. The point is to not make
people feel the need to go into hiding, which is completely against
everything I wrote above. You don't win OS market share by means of
micromanagement. Repugnant insults and repeated threats or extreme
disruptions, I agree, are grounds for removing somebody off the list.
But a tongue-in-cheek statement or a seemingly rude statement
shouldn't be. There are so many different cultures, languages, people
coming from different religious backgrounds, etc., that no matter
what, someone is always going to get offended. Then they can exploit
openSUSE's email list micromanagement policies and stifle open
communication which equates to censorship. Sometimes when people are
rude they are expressing their dismay at somebody else's
shortsightedness or lack of empathy and I see nothing wrong with it;
sometimes people need a wake up call.
Strong criticism and personal insults are two different
Providing feedback about someone's contribution can be strong but that
does not mean it has to be negative nor should it take on a personal
"Personal direction" is subjective. It goes back to the
aforementioned, where someone is always going to get offended about
Last but not least, for the record. Henne Vogelsang is
NOT a troll.
Henne is a well respected contributor to and member of the openSUSE
He seems like a troll to me, based on his behavior and trollish posts
he writes on his blog where he calls people idiots and bitches, and
writes posts with titles with the F word in them. I dare not write the
actual F word here because my email may get blocked. Apparently that's
okay, but me saying "ass" isn't. I also noticed on Henne's website
someone wrote this comment:
"So, Henne, if i am reading this right… Every time you kicked my ass,
that was because:
a) you were insecure whether you were entitled to decide something
(besides kicking my ass)?
b) you were insecure whether your idea would be liked?
c) you were just generally insecure?
I always knew it, you kicked my ass, not because that was in your
jobdescription as a teamlead, but because you were insecure :p
I always knew that behind that rough exterior was a small insecure boy
waiting to come out :ppp"
That makes me wonder how many other people have or had problems
working with Henne and haven't said something yet, or have and haven't
been heard. It's interesting to me that out of the paltry amount of
people that comment on his boring and poorly written reads, the above
quoted comment was even written. Since the openSUSE project is fairly
small (always not enough heads, not enough bug testing, not enough
contributors, etc.), it's interesting how that comment came out of the
woodwork. The point is that with the small amount of people that he's
working with, it sounds like Henne has some skeletons in his closet
that he's hiding from the community.
It is possible, though, that he is hitting an automatic
and thus he is unable to post. And he takes this as an insult. I know
that some of our lists had to implement, for some time at least, an
insult filter. Our lists are not moderated (by a human), in the sense
that nobody is reading all email before publishing.
If it were, his post on this list starting this thread would not have
been allowed, which proves that Henne is not what he claims.
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
Cheers / Saludos,
Carlos E. R.
(from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
I'm not hitting any automatic spam filter. I wrote a post about btrfs
about 48~ hours ago and got an "awaiting moderation" message.
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