On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 10:29:50 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:
I agree with where you are coming from, but some inline thoughts below:
On 10 February 2016 at 02:08, Jim Henderson <hendersj@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't know that I entirely agree, Richard. If someone wants to step up and manage that collection of money, doesn't that fit into the "just do it" approach that we want the project membership to use?
Yes, but the 'cultural' impact on something is important to consider
The last thing I want to see is an increase of people going to openSUSE mailinglists with an attitude of 'I paid for this, therefore you must do as I order'
Which is why I stated it's important to make it very clear that you can't "buy" membership with money - that technical or community contribution is the "currency" for project membership. So something like what jdd suggests that's authorized but not part of the project is a good way to bridge those needs. Completely agree that we don't want anyone to get the idea that "I paid, so I get a voice". That's something that can be very clearly communicated. I don't think it was with the box-set buyers you note below.
We have enough of a problem with that attitude still left over SUSE box-set buyers from the years before openSUSE even existed, I wouldn't want to see that added
The way to get what you want in an open source project doesn't require money, but requires encouragement, negotiation, cooperation, and contribution.
Exactly. We're on the same page. But there are things - like outreach, marketing, and so on, that money certainly helps with. If I want to make up 1,000 T-shirts to sell online, I need some capital to get the process started. I need an OK from the board about the use of the logo, and I need some capital to get started. Maybe SUSE wouldn't see the value to SUSE for funding that.
Technical contributions are certainly important, but there are many ways to support the project that don't involve technical contribution. Visibility for the project is important to getting people involved and interested in supporting it with technical contributions.
So, for example, if an openSUSE fan club wanted to pull something like this together, collect funds itself, and then use those funds to make T- shirts to sell through an online store - getting the openSUSE name out there in front of people, that is something that helps the project.
Agreed, but we don't need a non-profit for that. We've had calls of help for marketing, branding, and other such help with materials for years, all bankrolled by SUSE. We have an online store where we can sell this stuff, already.
T-shirts is an example, though. There may be other community-driven things that SUSE isn't interested in doing (for whatever reason - as a business, SUSE's bottom line is their important thing, and the community's goals may not fully align with enhancing SUSE's bottom line in a direct way).
And yet, we rarely actually any contributions to make that happen.
I live 15 minutes from Microsoft's main campus in Redmond (for the next 20 days, anyways, before I move to the other side of Puget Sound). The building I live in has Microsoft employees in it, and one of their main sales offices is walking distance.
I get looks when I wear my SUSE jacket - and not because Microsoft employees/fans hate Linux. Many seem to be thinking "I didn't know SUSE was still around" (and one person actually said that to me).
If I had thought to, I might've made myself an openSUSE t-shirt with a QR code and link on it to promote the cause here. If a group like the one being proposed did something like that, and the link/QR code went to a site that talked about the project and how to contribute to it, that certainly would help recruit talent to participate.
Or you could just buy a t-shirt from store.opensuse.org. or attend FOSDEM, SCALE, or openSUSE conferences where we give away as much as we can
Again, though, I'm using a simple example here. Maybe jdd has other ideas for things that aren't in the store today.
Walking around the Collaboration Summit last year, I didn't notice a lot of openSUSE-specific swag being shown off by the attendees. There was some for Ubuntu, Fedora, and other distros, though.
The Collaboration summit is a bad example - as a Linux Foundation *invitation only* conference for their corporate sponsors, community representation is few and far between. I'd rather you consider events like SCALE (quote from Linux Unplugged podcast last night "Events like SCALE make you think Ubuntu and openSUSE are the only distributions out there) and FOSDEM, where we make our mark very obviously.
I don't have experience with FOSDEM or SCALE. But I also see posts on the forums and in the facebook group where people want to know where the openSUSE marketing is. For better or for worse, we've inherited some of Novell's infamous marketing mojo (ie, "stealth marketing").
Seems like that's something we could be doing better with.
Yes, I agree, but we don't need a non-profit to do that, we need people to do it. We need people to localise materials, design materials, produce materials, distribute materials, attend events, advocate for openSUSE.. aka _CONTRIBUTE_ - not throw money at the problem and expect other people to do it.
Need it or don't need it, it's an idea that's been floated as a way to suggest it. Perhaps we should encourage jdd and those who are interested in pursing it to expand on their ideas, see where they lead us, and address project concerns around ownership as the idea develops.
If jdd has that itch and wants to scratch it, I think that's just as valid as if he wanted to create a x86 Leap distribution or wanted to provide translations to Manx Gaelic.
If jdd and others want to scratch their itch, yes, fine, but I don't want to give my consent without raising the issues that I see and making it clear that I do not believe the solutions being discussed resolve the issues that are being used to justify this train of thought
It isn't about consent, though - I think that's probably not the word choice you meant to use, because it implies board (or even personal) "ownership" of the project, which is contrary to the project's goals, as well as several things you've written recently here. openSUSE is a community project - you've said that yourself - so the community decides what's important, and people scratch their personal itches.
"We should have a non-profit because we wanna do it" is a perfectly valid reason in my humble opinion
Sure. That's what I'm hearing from jdd so far.
"We should have a non-profit because people need to throw money at openSUSE in order to feel like they 'own it'" is not a valid reason, and I fear leads to problems with the attitude of those who embrace that mindset.
I agree that that's not something I want to see as an outcome. But I think it's a leap to go from "we'd like to set up a non-profit for openSUSE to do 'x'" to "people will give money and feel that they have a stake in the project" without any intermediate steps about how such donations are collected, what is communicated when people make their donation, etc. There's a whole lot of process around that that is not defined here. Sure, there will be some who will feel "I have ownership because I gave someone money". If this effort moves forward, a big part of what goes on (and I would see as part of what those who want to do it need to work on) is getting people to understand that money doesn't buy influence in the project, period. I think we also might find, though, that if set up properly, many of the donations will come from people who already contribute in other ways - ie, who have the currency in the project today.
"We should have a non-profit because openSUSE needs money for local materials" is not a valid reason when we have your local reimbursement fund sitting unused with thousands of dollars available to it
Agreed, as one of the people who approves those requests - and who has received zero requests. So if there's a need that that can fill, then sure, that's a thing that can be done. But I also understand that some may have hesitation about money = project ownership, with some maybe thinking that because SUSE is a sponsor and puts money into the project, and seems to have a fair amount of control as a key sponsor.
"We should have a non-profit because that way we will have money to make developers do what we want" is also not a valid reason, because volunteer contributors do what they want (that's a fact that can't be avoided), and money isn't a motivator..but those other factors like encoragement, collaboration, negotiation and cooperation are.. and I don't see how a non-profit helps with that.
Absolutely agree, as I've said before, it needs to be really clear that money != influence. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org