Hey, On 08.02.2016 18:13, Aaron B wrote:

On 02/08/2016 09:52 AM, jdd wrote:

...

History: Long time ago, a discussion was held on the subject: do we need an openSUSE Foundation (http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-foundation/). It was discarded because we feel that the openSUSE/SUSE trademark was better protected by SUSE than by any non profit Foundation.

That makes sense; SUSE probably has lawyers who focus on Intellectual Property (IP) all day

Just for your information from someone who has heavily participated in those discussions in the past: The trademark protection was _NOT_ the reason the idea of an openSUSE foundation was discarded. Not in any way. There were discussions with SUSE about the trademarks and if handling them in a foundation would be feasible but those discussions never reached a conclusion. The idea of the foundation was discarded because after months and months of very detailed discussions the amount of benefits such a foundation could bring to the openSUSE project was deemed to be too small for all the organizational work one would have to do to setup right. That of course doesn't mean that someone shouldn't do it anyway :-) It was just a decision of those people involved at that time... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 08/02/2016 18:36, Jim Henderson a écrit :

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 17:52:34 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Every member would have to pay a small fee (10€??) as membership, for each year, so we would know exactly how many people really support the "Friends". They could also donate and the money could be used to support openSUSE where it's not already done. I think of more local support (french or Vanuatu one...).

Are you talking project member, or member of the non-profit?

of the non profit, of course on a voluntary basis. Friends of and openSUSE have to keep reasonably separated - administrative separation, "Friends" have to be self organized. the "membership", "members" word was always in search of definition :-( let's call them "friends" friends will have to pay a small subscription fee. More donation could accepted (according to the local laws), only in benefit of the association goals (status have to be created) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

2016-02-08 20:26 GMT+02:00 Jim Henderson :

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:48:45 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Le 08/02/2016 18:36, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 17:52:34 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Every member would have to pay a small fee (10€??) as membership, for each year, so we would know exactly how many people really support the "Friends". They could also donate and the money could be used to support openSUSE where it's not already done. I think of more local support (french or Vanuatu one...).

Are you talking project member, or member of the non-profit?

of the non profit, of course on a voluntary basis. Friends of and openSUSE have to keep reasonably separated - administrative separation, "Friends" have to be self organized.

the "membership", "members" word was always in search of definition :-(

let's call them "friends"

friends will have to pay a small subscription fee. More donation could accepted (according to the local laws), only in benefit of the association goals (status have to be created)

Thanks for the clarification. :)

Jim

-- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

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I honestly see no actual reason for this to be done as I nowdays see no benefit coming out of it. I was pationately supporting the openSUSE Foundation idea for many years and while I was around I talked to a lot of people of other FOSS organizations/foundations and ended up that even if magically ended up with a foundation(as it is pretty harder to be done in action than in words) many many many troubles will stand in front of us(as a community) and most of them are very hard to handle. You can start by "some" new rules you need in order for this to work and ask yourself who will write those rules (who has the capacity to do it and who doesn't and how can it be claimed and by who?). You can continue by who will found this Foundation? Should those people be the board? Even if for examples sake we say it should be the board are you sure that board members want to do it as they were not elected for something like this in the first place and are the legally can do it in a country that do not live in?. If not the board then who and again with what capacity? I can continue addressing real big problems for many pages and what will we(as a community) get from out of it? We are a great community and maybe we can solve all of the problems that will come, but are the benefits that will come out of it worth it? As an organiser of the first community oSC had a lot to do with SUSE, from standing and ask them to trust us(a bunch of volunteers from Greece) to do it outside their 'safety zone', to eventually pay for almost everything that needed for the conference. I can assure you that none of the problems we had was because of how SUSE handled things. I can also assure you that people from Dubrovnic and people from Hague will tell you the same thing. I want to end up by saying that we have things provided to us that no other upstream project can even dream and I don't know a single case that something was asked from the community and was not allowed to be done by SUSE. People who follow other upstream projects understand exactly what I am talking about. As I am a non-developer volunteer my opinion is and always was that we are here because openSUSE is good news for the people around us and we do what ever we do to spread the word around and find developer/technical people to make it even greater and more handy for us to use. I honestly try to understand what you mean by saying "most non-developers volunteers do not get any direct benefit", what would you want as a direct benefit for your contribution to the project? Don't get me wrong but you are using for Free(as in free beer in that case) a Great OS that has billions of workhours put into it and also have 'some' support with it, you get free updates,upgrades,documentation etc. while other people pay a lot of money for having much more less. It is nice to do talks like that from time to time as we should not hesitate to talk about anything. Disclaimer: All of the above are my personal opinion and do not express in any way the openSUSE Board Kostas "Warlordfff" Koudaras -- --- \m/ --- If you're not failing every now and again, it's a sign you're not doing anything very innovative. --- \m/ --- me I am not I --- \m/ --- Time travel is possible, you just need to know the right aliens -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Kostas Koudaras wrote:

I honestly see no actual reason for this to be done as I nowdays see no benefit coming out of it. I was pationately supporting the openSUSE Foundation idea for many years and while I was around I talked to a lot of people of other FOSS organizations/foundations and ended up that even if magically ended up with a foundation(as it is pretty harder to be done in action than in words)

Setting up a foundation is slightly more difficult, among other things because it requires a minimum CHF50'000 capital. A registered association is actually quite easy. We would need 2 people and about CHF500 (registration fees).

many many many troubles will stand in front of us(as a community) and most of them are very hard to handle. You can start by "some" new rules you need in order for this to work and ask yourself who will write those rules (who has the capacity to do it and who doesn't and how can it be claimed and by who?).

In a do-ocracy ...

You can continue by who will found this Foundation? Should those people be the board?

In the beginning the founders are also the board, obviously. They can always be replaced later. Unless you meant our current Board?

I can continue addressing real big problems for many pages and what will we(as a community) get from out of it?

The "real big problems" really aren't that big, Kostas, but your question is valid and that is what jdd started out asking. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.3°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 08/02/2016 19:58, Michal Hrusecky a écrit :

given that SUSE is happy to pay for whatever we need :-)

I already read this and it's not true, or it depends of what and who define the need. for example, there is little or no paper documentation not in english. at last RMLL, a local association had to pay to have T-shirt here the napkin is SUSE, the banner is mine and T-shirts are Nicolas's http://dodin.info/piwigo/picture.php?/110162-dsc04910_7822/search/108 just an example and IMHO money is not the main interest of an association, engagement is. Think at ubuntu, at every meeting (at least in France, the only I know) there are ubuntu men with lot of goodies to sell. Lot of frustration for us... jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 09/02/2016 23:17, Richard Brown a écrit :

On 9 February 2016 at 23:06, jdd wrote:

...

just an example and IMHO money is not the main interest of an association, engagement is. Think at ubuntu, at every meeting (at least in France, the only I know) there are ubuntu men with lot of goodies to sell. Lot of frustration for us...

SUSE is happy to pay to help with that

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Local_Material_Production_Reimbursement

The problem is NOT _money_

The problem is NO ONE is doing it, or using the money that is available to them

Contributions matter

I was giving example in a previous post where opensuse participation was refused (twice). may be the link up there gives an idea of what bureaucracy is? But we should let this out of this thread (I may open an other about having translations of openSUSE brochures - I ask first on the -fr list). please do not answer to this post (or mail to me privately) - there are other post on the thread more important IMHO jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 09/02/2016 12:56, Klaas Freitag a écrit :

On 08.02.2016 17:52, jdd wrote:

...

Reason to create the "Friends" (seen by jdd): Here is my first question: When I read "friends of openSUSE", this is not neccessarily the same as the heavyweight "foundation" discussions that we had before.

yes, completely different Maybe you think more of the direction of a

"fan-club", that does its own supportive actions around the project, but does not claim to work on the nifty stuff such as IP, trademarks, money and stuff?

exactly. A place where freedom would be the rule, not asking anything to SUSE, trying to agglomerate good will not used elsewhere, promote openSUSE by anyway. one of the main benefit I see is that having a small annual fee allows a real count. I'm pretty sure we have more than 150 active members, but most of them do not care of asking to be "official" member. Thanks jdd for your energy on that, I hope you can share some of my

thoughts.

I agree with most if not all what you said jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 09.02.2016 16:26, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

I've thought about this often, and where I would have supported the idea fully five years ago, I now wonder what the benefits for openSUSE could be. If it's for getting some money in to do extra stuff, an easy access donation page could do that.

Here the fun starts: Which bank account would the money from this donation page end up in? :-) Handling (small) donations (from individuals) is a reason we could use a non-profit for. Letting a sponsor, even if it's SUSE, handle those donations is more than strange. And in the case of SUSE not wanted from their side anyway. And back then when the idea of the foundation was floating around we came to the conclusion that we don't really need those types of donations. I don't see a reason why this has changed now... Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Le 09/02/2016 18:16, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

...

And back then when the idea of the foundation was floating around we came to the conclusion that we don't really need those types of donations. I don't see a reason why this has changed now...

it's a curious but constant feature of human nature than one is more linked to groups they have donated money than to the one they receive money from.

the goal is to give people something where they can aggregate, because it's they own.

Finding a bank account is very easy, many groups simply use an account opened by the treasurer, or any trusted people.

With a registered legal entity, opening a bank account only takes a phone call. But I'm sure Henne wasn't really asking about which account, it's just that it isn't quite as easy as Knurpht suggested: "an easy access donation page could do that.". -- Per Jessen, Zürich (7.7°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Michal Hrusecky wrote:

Per Jessen - 20:00 9.02.16 wrote:

...

jdd wrote:

...

Le 09/02/2016 18:16, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

...

And back then when the idea of the foundation was floating around we came to the conclusion that we don't really need those types of donations. I don't see a reason why this has changed now...

it's a curious but constant feature of human nature than one is more linked to groups they have donated money than to the one they receive money from.

the goal is to give people something where they can aggregate, because it's they own.

Finding a bank account is very easy, many groups simply use an account opened by the treasurer, or any trusted people.

With a registered legal entity, opening a bank account only takes a phone call. But I'm sure Henne wasn't really asking about which account, it's just that it isn't quite as easy as Knurpht suggested: "an easy access donation page could do that.".

Well, yes, getting a bank account for legal entity is quite easy and getting legal entity is not that entirely hard either, just some work and small donations is something that such a foundation could do and SUSE can't. But more important question I think is what would we to do with such a money, who would be in control of it and why not just ask SUSE to pay for whatever we want :-)

I totally agree those are more important questions, I just wanted to get the presumed obstacles out of the way. /Per -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 09/02/2016 22:50, Richard Brown a écrit :

If people think that giving money to openSUSE means they are entitled to order what openSUSE does for them, that is totally wrong

not at all. Only to manage the money and work direction of the association itself. I don't really know howto manage an international association, but I know for sure that having one in some countries could make life better. mot sport associations works that way, local relays, international covers. didn't you see people saying they used to buy boxes to help suse? that said there is not here and now a great movement in that direction :-( jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 23:19:49 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

Yes, and SUSE stopped doing it because it's not a sustainable business model

openSUSE doesn't need money to survive

We need contributions

Lets focus on that, don't talk, don't pay, just DO

Making, collecting, and administering money that we don't need right now is just going to be a distraction that isn't going to solve any problems for anyone.

I don't know that I entirely agree, Richard. If someone wants to step up and manage that collection of money, doesn't that fit into the "just do it" approach that we want the project membership to use? Technical contributions are certainly important, but there are many ways to support the project that don't involve technical contribution. Visibility for the project is important to getting people involved and interested in supporting it with technical contributions. So, for example, if an openSUSE fan club wanted to pull something like this together, collect funds itself, and then use those funds to make T- shirts to sell through an online store - getting the openSUSE name out there in front of people, that is something that helps the project. I live 15 minutes from Microsoft's main campus in Redmond (for the next 20 days, anyways, before I move to the other side of Puget Sound). The building I live in has Microsoft employees in it, and one of their main sales offices is walking distance. I get looks when I wear my SUSE jacket - and not because Microsoft employees/fans hate Linux. Many seem to be thinking "I didn't know SUSE was still around" (and one person actually said that to me). If I had thought to, I might've made myself an openSUSE t-shirt with a QR code and link on it to promote the cause here. If a group like the one being proposed did something like that, and the link/QR code went to a site that talked about the project and how to contribute to it, that certainly would help recruit talent to participate. Walking around the Collaboration Summit last year, I didn't notice a lot of openSUSE-specific swag being shown off by the attendees. There was some for Ubuntu, Fedora, and other distros, though. Seems like that's something we could be doing better with. I know there's money in the SUSE budget to do this - I am one of the team who handles local reimbursement. I've received zero requests for this over the year or so that I've been on the team that handles it. I could have done more to promote the use of the fund, I suppose - but maybe having something users can contribute to for the purposes of promoting the openSUSE project isn't a bad thing - allowing the local reimbursement fund to be used for more organized events like conferences (which, as I recall, was the original intent). As long as those who contribute understand that being a paid "fan" is different than being a "project member" - that the currency for project membership is contributions and not a financial donation - I don't see the harm in letting someone give it a shot and seeing how it goes. If jdd has that itch and wants to scratch it, I think that's just as valid as if he wanted to create a x86 Leap distribution or wanted to provide translations to Manx Gaelic. Just my thoughts. :) Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 10/02/2016 10:29, Richard Brown a écrit :

Yes, I agree, but we don't need a non-profit to do that, we need people to do it. We need people to localise materials, design materials, produce materials, distribute materials, attend events, advocate for openSUSE.. aka _CONTRIBUTE_ - not throw money at the problem and expect other people to do it.

are you joking? May be we don't need a non profit, but I have never seen any real effort to have localized *material*

"We should have a non-profit because people need to throw money at openSUSE in order to feel like they 'own it'" is not a valid reason, and I fear leads to problems with the attitude of those who embrace that mindset.

in more than 40 years dealing with non profit organizations, I think you are completely wrong with this. Nobody never had such attitude. We always had a "do, we support" way of live.

avoided), and money isn't a motivator..but those other factors like encoragement, collaboration, negotiation and cooperation are.. and I don't see how a non-profit helps with that.

did you ever work on non profit organization? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

jdd - 10:38 10.02.16 wrote:

Le 10/02/2016 10:29, Richard Brown a écrit :

...

Yes, I agree, but we don't need a non-profit to do that, we need people to do it. We need people to localise materials, design materials, produce materials, distribute materials, attend events, advocate for openSUSE.. aka _CONTRIBUTE_ - not throw money at the problem and expect other people to do it.

are you joking? May be we don't need a non profit, but I have never seen any real effort to have localized *material*

Yep, and that is not a problem of not having a money to produce it, but not having people who would do it. And we actually did had and still have some. I remember some Greek stuff and I'm certain there is Chinese version of some of our materials and Japanese guys even have their own geeko magazine.

...

"We should have a non-profit because people need to throw money at openSUSE in order to feel like they 'own it'" is not a valid reason, and I fear leads to problems with the attitude of those who embrace that mindset.

in more than 40 years dealing with non profit organizations, I think you are completely wrong with this. Nobody never had such attitude. We always had a "do, we support" way of live.

And we have that, we have TSP, reimbursement for locally produced materials...

...

avoided), and money isn't a motivator..but those other factors like encoragement, collaboration, negotiation and cooperation are.. and I don't see how a non-profit helps with that.

did you ever work on non profit organization?

I would put the question other way around. Would paying money to non-profit motivate you to contribute to that non-profit more time that you would contribute without paying? For me answer is definitely no. Either I give money or time. Money can be quite often simpler. If money is not an option, I will more likely contribute time. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen - 20:55 10.02.16 wrote:

Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

...

...

avoided), and money isn't a motivator..but those other factors like encoragement, collaboration, negotiation and cooperation are.. and I don't see how a non-profit helps with that.

did you ever work on non profit organization?

I would put the question other way around. Would paying money to non-profit motivate you to contribute to that non-profit more time that you would contribute without paying?

Actually, I donate both time and money to e.g. Wikipedia. I am also a member of a local volunteer organisation - I pay my membership fee and I also participate actively.

And if there wasn't a way to sent a money, would you contribute less? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 10:29:50 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

I agree with where you are coming from, but some inline thoughts below:

On 10 February 2016 at 02:08, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

I don't know that I entirely agree, Richard. If someone wants to step up and manage that collection of money, doesn't that fit into the "just do it" approach that we want the project membership to use?

Yes, but the 'cultural' impact on something is important to consider

The last thing I want to see is an increase of people going to openSUSE mailinglists with an attitude of 'I paid for this, therefore you must do as I order'

Which is why I stated it's important to make it very clear that you can't "buy" membership with money - that technical or community contribution is the "currency" for project membership. So something like what jdd suggests that's authorized but not part of the project is a good way to bridge those needs. Completely agree that we don't want anyone to get the idea that "I paid, so I get a voice". That's something that can be very clearly communicated. I don't think it was with the box-set buyers you note below.

We have enough of a problem with that attitude still left over SUSE box-set buyers from the years before openSUSE even existed, I wouldn't want to see that added

The way to get what you want in an open source project doesn't require money, but requires encouragement, negotiation, cooperation, and contribution.

Exactly. We're on the same page. But there are things - like outreach, marketing, and so on, that money certainly helps with. If I want to make up 1,000 T-shirts to sell online, I need some capital to get the process started. I need an OK from the board about the use of the logo, and I need some capital to get started. Maybe SUSE wouldn't see the value to SUSE for funding that.

...

Technical contributions are certainly important, but there are many ways to support the project that don't involve technical contribution. Visibility for the project is important to getting people involved and interested in supporting it with technical contributions.

So, for example, if an openSUSE fan club wanted to pull something like this together, collect funds itself, and then use those funds to make T- shirts to sell through an online store - getting the openSUSE name out there in front of people, that is something that helps the project.

Agreed, but we don't need a non-profit for that. We've had calls of help for marketing, branding, and other such help with materials for years, all bankrolled by SUSE. We have an online store where we can sell this stuff, already.

T-shirts is an example, though. There may be other community-driven things that SUSE isn't interested in doing (for whatever reason - as a business, SUSE's bottom line is their important thing, and the community's goals may not fully align with enhancing SUSE's bottom line in a direct way).

And yet, we rarely actually any contributions to make that happen.

...

I live 15 minutes from Microsoft's main campus in Redmond (for the next 20 days, anyways, before I move to the other side of Puget Sound). The building I live in has Microsoft employees in it, and one of their main sales offices is walking distance.

I get looks when I wear my SUSE jacket - and not because Microsoft employees/fans hate Linux. Many seem to be thinking "I didn't know SUSE was still around" (and one person actually said that to me).

If I had thought to, I might've made myself an openSUSE t-shirt with a QR code and link on it to promote the cause here. If a group like the one being proposed did something like that, and the link/QR code went to a site that talked about the project and how to contribute to it, that certainly would help recruit talent to participate.

Or you could just buy a t-shirt from store.opensuse.org. or attend FOSDEM, SCALE, or openSUSE conferences where we give away as much as we can

Again, though, I'm using a simple example here. Maybe jdd has other ideas for things that aren't in the store today.

...

Walking around the Collaboration Summit last year, I didn't notice a lot of openSUSE-specific swag being shown off by the attendees. There was some for Ubuntu, Fedora, and other distros, though.

The Collaboration summit is a bad example - as a Linux Foundation *invitation only* conference for their corporate sponsors, community representation is few and far between. I'd rather you consider events like SCALE (quote from Linux Unplugged podcast last night "Events like SCALE make you think Ubuntu and openSUSE are the only distributions out there) and FOSDEM, where we make our mark very obviously.

I don't have experience with FOSDEM or SCALE. But I also see posts on the forums and in the facebook group where people want to know where the openSUSE marketing is. For better or for worse, we've inherited some of Novell's infamous marketing mojo (ie, "stealth marketing").

...

Seems like that's something we could be doing better with.

Yes, I agree, but we don't need a non-profit to do that, we need people to do it. We need people to localise materials, design materials, produce materials, distribute materials, attend events, advocate for openSUSE.. aka _CONTRIBUTE_ - not throw money at the problem and expect other people to do it.

Need it or don't need it, it's an idea that's been floated as a way to suggest it. Perhaps we should encourage jdd and those who are interested in pursing it to expand on their ideas, see where they lead us, and address project concerns around ownership as the idea develops.

...

If jdd has that itch and wants to scratch it, I think that's just as valid as if he wanted to create a x86 Leap distribution or wanted to provide translations to Manx Gaelic.

If jdd and others want to scratch their itch, yes, fine, but I don't want to give my consent without raising the issues that I see and making it clear that I do not believe the solutions being discussed resolve the issues that are being used to justify this train of thought

It isn't about consent, though - I think that's probably not the word choice you meant to use, because it implies board (or even personal) "ownership" of the project, which is contrary to the project's goals, as well as several things you've written recently here. openSUSE is a community project - you've said that yourself - so the community decides what's important, and people scratch their personal itches.

"We should have a non-profit because we wanna do it" is a perfectly valid reason in my humble opinion

Sure. That's what I'm hearing from jdd so far.

"We should have a non-profit because people need to throw money at openSUSE in order to feel like they 'own it'" is not a valid reason, and I fear leads to problems with the attitude of those who embrace that mindset.

I agree that that's not something I want to see as an outcome. But I think it's a leap to go from "we'd like to set up a non-profit for openSUSE to do 'x'" to "people will give money and feel that they have a stake in the project" without any intermediate steps about how such donations are collected, what is communicated when people make their donation, etc. There's a whole lot of process around that that is not defined here. Sure, there will be some who will feel "I have ownership because I gave someone money". If this effort moves forward, a big part of what goes on (and I would see as part of what those who want to do it need to work on) is getting people to understand that money doesn't buy influence in the project, period. I think we also might find, though, that if set up properly, many of the donations will come from people who already contribute in other ways - ie, who have the currency in the project today.

"We should have a non-profit because openSUSE needs money for local materials" is not a valid reason when we have your local reimbursement fund sitting unused with thousands of dollars available to it

Agreed, as one of the people who approves those requests - and who has received zero requests. So if there's a need that that can fill, then sure, that's a thing that can be done. But I also understand that some may have hesitation about money = project ownership, with some maybe thinking that because SUSE is a sponsor and puts money into the project, and seems to have a fair amount of control as a key sponsor.

"We should have a non-profit because that way we will have money to make developers do what we want" is also not a valid reason, because volunteer contributors do what they want (that's a fact that can't be avoided), and money isn't a motivator..but those other factors like encoragement, collaboration, negotiation and cooperation are.. and I don't see how a non-profit helps with that.

Absolutely agree, as I've said before, it needs to be really clear that money != influence. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

jdd - 20:55 10.02.16 wrote:

Le 10/02/2016 19:02, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

Absolutely agree, as I've said before, it needs to be really clear that money != influence.

sure

worth reading:

open-advice.org/

specially

http://open-advice.org/Open-Advice.pdf

and go to page 40 (56 of the pdf)

Which states we should look for all kinds of contributors doing whatever they can. Which I completely agree with. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson - 18:02 10.02.16 wrote:

...

"We should have a non-profit because people need to throw money at openSUSE in order to feel like they 'own it'" is not a valid reason, and I fear leads to problems with the attitude of those who embrace that mindset.

I agree that that's not something I want to see as an outcome. But I think it's a leap to go from "we'd like to set up a non-profit for openSUSE to do 'x'" to "people will give money and feel that they have a stake in the project" without any intermediate steps about how such donations are collected, what is communicated when people make their donation, etc. There's a whole lot of process around that that is not defined here.

I would like to hear in this discussion more of "we'd like to do 'x' which is currently not possible, so we would like to have a non-profit for openSUSE to help us achieve that". Wanted to verbatim copy "we'd like to set up a non-profit for openSUSE to do 'x'", but hopefully this formulation is less ambiguous. So far the only reason I hear for creating a foundation is to have a place that people can send money to feel better. I thought churches were for that. I see a foundation and money as a tool to help us achieve something. Not as a goal. And as it is tool that would cost a lot of valuable resources (peoples time to manage it), I would like to check whether there isn't some cheaper way to achieve that goal, so people can do more marketing/artwork/developement/translation instead of managing foundation. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 11/02/2016 03:25, Jim Henderson a écrit :

I think, based on the subject of the thread, that that's what jdd's driving towards. He's asking if we need something like a non-profit to deal with a perceived shortcoming.

it's exactly that. May be people will come to a non profit that don't come to openSUSE now, because they feel it too complicated But fact is right now we don't have enough positive answer to make it happen jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Jim Henderson - 1:08 10.02.16 wrote:

On Tue, 09 Feb 2016 23:19:49 +0100, Richard Brown wrote:

...

Yes, and SUSE stopped doing it because it's not a sustainable business model

openSUSE doesn't need money to survive

We need contributions

Lets focus on that, don't talk, don't pay, just DO

Making, collecting, and administering money that we don't need right now is just going to be a distraction that isn't going to solve any problems for anyone.

I don't know that I entirely agree, Richard. If someone wants to step up and manage that collection of money, doesn't that fit into the "just do it" approach that we want the project membership to use?

Well, depends. For sure, anybody is free to create clubs, collect money and use them up on whatever they want. But making it official openSUSE foundation and pretending that sending money to it helps openSUSE is something kinda different as openSUSE doesn't need the money and so far in this discussion I haven't seen what this money could be used for that is not possible with SUSE money (except people feeling good that they spent some money on "openSUSE").

Technical contributions are certainly important, but there are many ways to support the project that don't involve technical contribution. Visibility for the project is important to getting people involved and interested in supporting it with technical contributions.

So, for example, if an openSUSE fan club wanted to pull something like this together, collect funds itself, and then use those funds to make T- shirts to sell through an online store - getting the openSUSE name out there in front of people, that is something that helps the project.

Something like http://shop.opensuse.org/ or http://openshop.spreadshirt.com/

I live 15 minutes from Microsoft's main campus in Redmond (for the next 20 days, anyways, before I move to the other side of Puget Sound). The building I live in has Microsoft employees in it, and one of their main sales offices is walking distance.

I get looks when I wear my SUSE jacket - and not because Microsoft employees/fans hate Linux. Many seem to be thinking "I didn't know SUSE was still around" (and one person actually said that to me).

Microsoft is still around? :-)

If I had thought to, I might've made myself an openSUSE t-shirt with a QR code and link on it to promote the cause here. If a group like the one being proposed did something like that, and the link/QR code went to a site that talked about the project and how to contribute to it, that certainly would help recruit talent to participate.

Cool idea! There is plenty of services online where you can just submit your design and get a T-Shirt. There are even some that will allow to upload your design and let other people buy it. Nice idea for a nice project, but I still fail to see a need for legal entity collecting money and some relation between money being collected somewhere and somebody designing a cool T-shirt and people buying it online.

Walking around the Collaboration Summit last year, I didn't notice a lot of openSUSE-specific swag being shown off by the attendees. There was some for Ubuntu, Fedora, and other distros, though.

Seems like that's something we could be doing better with.

I know there's money in the SUSE budget to do this - I am one of the team who handles local reimbursement. I've received zero requests for this over the year or so that I've been on the team that handles it. I could have done more to promote the use of the fund, I suppose - but maybe having something users can contribute to for the purposes of promoting the openSUSE project isn't a bad thing - allowing the local reimbursement fund to be used for more organized events like conferences (which, as I recall, was the original intent). As long as those who contribute understand that being a paid "fan" is different than being a "project member" - that the currency for project membership is contributions and not a financial donation - I don't see the harm in letting someone give it a shot and seeing how it goes.

If jdd has that itch and wants to scratch it, I think that's just as valid as if he wanted to create a x86 Leap distribution or wanted to provide translations to Manx Gaelic.

Just my thoughts. :)

Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits

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On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 10:39:23 +0100, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

...

I don't know that I entirely agree, Richard. If someone wants to step up and manage that collection of money, doesn't that fit into the "just do it" approach that we want the project membership to use?

Well, depends. For sure, anybody is free to create clubs, collect money and use them up on whatever they want. But making it official openSUSE foundation and pretending that sending money to it helps openSUSE is something kinda different as openSUSE doesn't need the money and so far in this discussion I haven't seen what this money could be used for that is not possible with SUSE money (except people feeling good that they spent some money on "openSUSE").

Some people perhaps want to not feel beholden to SUSE for the community project. I'm perfectly fine with it myself, but I can also see that some people feel that if SUSE can make financial contributions to the project, why can't others?

...

Technical contributions are certainly important, but there are many ways to support the project that don't involve technical contribution. Visibility for the project is important to getting people involved and interested in supporting it with technical contributions.

So, for example, if an openSUSE fan club wanted to pull something like this together, collect funds itself, and then use those funds to make T- shirts to sell through an online store - getting the openSUSE name out there in front of people, that is something that helps the project.

Something like http://shop.opensuse.org/ or http://openshop.spreadshirt.com/

Sure. As I explained to Richard, I wanted a simple example, not necessarily an example that was "oh, here's something we don't have".

...

I live 15 minutes from Microsoft's main campus in Redmond (for the next 20 days, anyways, before I move to the other side of Puget Sound). The building I live in has Microsoft employees in it, and one of their main sales offices is walking distance.

I get looks when I wear my SUSE jacket - and not because Microsoft employees/fans hate Linux. Many seem to be thinking "I didn't know SUSE was still around" (and one person actually said that to me).

Microsoft is still around? :-)

Allegedly. ;)

...

If I had thought to, I might've made myself an openSUSE t-shirt with a QR code and link on it to promote the cause here. If a group like the one being proposed did something like that, and the link/QR code went to a site that talked about the project and how to contribute to it, that certainly would help recruit talent to participate.

Cool idea! There is plenty of services online where you can just submit your design and get a T-Shirt. There are even some that will allow to upload your design and let other people buy it. Nice idea for a nice project, but I still fail to see a need for legal entity collecting money and some relation between money being collected somewhere and somebody designing a cool T-shirt and people buying it online.

Sure, but my point wasn't to get people hung on T-shirts, but to use that as an example. Richard's talked at length about how developers want to scratch an itch, and that's how they decide what to work on. Not all itches are development-related. That was my point. So if jdd wants to scratch the itch of managing some sort of non-profit organization that *can* help the openSUSE Project, he should be encouraged to scratch that itch and see what can be done within the construct of the project and how that can help without setting an expectation that donation = influence. And it seems that nobody is saying "we should let people buy their way into providing direction for the project" - quite the opposite, in fact. I think we should, as a project, let people scratch their respective itches and find ways to enable them to do so, rather than saying "no, not *that* itch". That's all I'm saying. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 10.02.2016 19:12, Jim Henderson wrote:

Some people perhaps want to not feel beholden to SUSE for the community project. I'm perfectly fine with it myself, but I can also see that some people feel that if SUSE can make financial contributions to the project, why can't others?

SUSE makes no financial contributions because there is no legal entity to make contributions to. SUSE simply pays for stuff, and that everyone can do. Everyone can make a sticker, print a million copies (and pay for it) to distribute them on conferences. That is what SUSE does. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 11.02.2016 16:13, jdd wrote:

Le 11/02/2016 16:01, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

...

SUSE makes no financial contributions because there is no legal entity to make contributions to. SUSE simply pays for stuff, and that everyone can do.

do you know how

https://shop.opensuse.org/

works?

Sure, I maintain it :-)

I mean, do this gives money to the project?

Items in this shop produce a commission (0.5-5€) that goes the openSUSE budget of SUSE via a SUSE bank account. Currently we are talking ~80€/month.

such thing:

https://shop.opensuse.org/#!buttons-A103897784?appearance=1

are at a reasonable price, we could direct people wanting to help to this.

the others (T-shirts...) are pretty expensive compared to

[some t-shirt]

This is comparing apples with oranges. shop.opensuse.org is using spreadshirt.com which is a service that let's you upload your own designs to print on a variety of products. You can earn money by adding a commission on each sold item. That way we can distribute openSUSE products without having to worry about all the usual hassle (production, storage, payments, shipment, returns etc.) that you have when you sell things. If you want to give money to openSUSE buy a product on shop.opensuse.org, buy a box at www.opensourcepress.de or start something yourself. Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 11.02.2016 17:09, jdd wrote:

Le 11/02/2016 16:33, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

...

If you want to give money to openSUSE buy a product on shop.opensuse.org, buy a box at www.opensourcepress.de or start something yourself.

this is a way one can help openSUSE with money.

this drives me to an idea. I see there are also sticker on "shop". If you know web sites like spreadshirt for other kind of goodies, documentation and so on (related to our marketing), may be it would be easier for members wanting something to get a price list and apply to the refund system through this with better chance to get some.

Why would this be easier than researching all your local sticker producers and chosing the one with the best offer? Local material production is about avoiding a central production place and factoring in local differences in quality, price etc... I guess what you really want is a listing of openSUSE things you _can_ produce. We have a very limited set of items (Poster+Flyer in english) on the branding guidelines pages[1]. Expanding this would be time very well spend.

I mean. I can have a deal with my local printer to have a price list, but the openSUSE team will never know if the price is fair.

If this is fair will be decided by the TSP team when you request the reimbursment right? Henne [1] http://opensuse.github.io/branding-guidelines/ -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hi On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

Hey,

On 11.02.2016 17:09, jdd wrote:

...

Le 11/02/2016 16:33, Henne Vogelsang a écrit :

...

If you want to give money to openSUSE buy a product on shop.opensuse.org, buy a box at www.opensourcepress.de or start something yourself.

this is a way one can help openSUSE with money.

this drives me to an idea. I see there are also sticker on "shop". If you know web sites like spreadshirt for other kind of goodies, documentation and so on (related to our marketing), may be it would be easier for members wanting something to get a price list and apply to the refund system through this with better chance to get some.

Why would this be easier than researching all your local sticker producers and chosing the one with the best offer? Local material production is about avoiding a central production place and factoring in local differences in quality, price etc...

I guess what you really want is a listing of openSUSE things you _can_ produce. We have a very limited set of items (Poster+Flyer in english) on the branding guidelines pages[1]. Expanding this would be time very well spend.

...

I mean. I can have a deal with my local printer to have a price list, but the openSUSE team will never know if the price is fair.

If this is fair will be decided by the TSP team when you request the reimbursment right?

I have tried it so many times. SUSE cannot really make business transactions in India for purchasing stuff. One of the biggest reasons that was given was the amount to transfer the money is much larger than the amount than the amount to buy the stuff. It is to be noted that I was in India then, and Cost of goods in India is very low.

Henne

[1] http://opensuse.github.io/branding-guidelines/

-- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

-- Regards Manu Gupta -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 11.02.2016 19:26, Manu Gupta wrote:

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 10:01 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

On 10.02.2016 19:12, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Some people perhaps want to not feel beholden to SUSE for the community project. I'm perfectly fine with it myself, but I can also see that some people feel that if SUSE can make financial contributions to the project, why can't others?

SUSE makes no financial contributions because there is no legal entity to make contributions to. SUSE simply pays for stuff, and that everyone can do.

I am sorry, I always thought that we had an internal account with SUSE. I mean we have sponsorship in 1000s of $ from GSoC and if it has ended into SUSE's payroll, that was not good.

What do you mean with payroll? The money from GSoC or shop.o.o is simply calculated into the budget SUSE spends for openSUSE.

In fact, I had rather see that money going to FSF or Linux Foundation.

Given openSUSEs bad track record of spending the money that SUSE provides this is a sound idea, I like it :-) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Hey, On 12.02.2016 01:06, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 16:01:12 +0100, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

...

On 10.02.2016 19:12, Jim Henderson wrote:

...

Some people perhaps want to not feel beholden to SUSE for the community project. I'm perfectly fine with it myself, but I can also see that some people feel that if SUSE can make financial contributions to the project, why can't others?

SUSE makes no financial contributions because there is no legal entity to make contributions to. SUSE simply pays for stuff, and that everyone can do.

I didn't mean "financial contribution" as in "they give money to an organisation that doesn't exist" - but the openSUSE project benefits from SUSE's financial input.

But you say others can't do that and this is simply not true.

...

Everyone can make a sticker, print a million copies (and pay for it) to distribute them on conferences. That is what SUSE does.

Sure. But there are those who think it might be useful to be able to pool the financial resources to do that, aside from the local reimbursement fund that SUSE has set up for the project.

There's nothing that prevents a group of individuals around the world from pooling their resources for a specific need, but for those who would like to contribute to a general fund, there's no option.

There is nothing that prevents anyone from doing anything. But that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing the pros and cons of a 'general fund' :-) Henne -- Henne Vogelsang http://www.opensuse.org Everybody has a plan, until they get hit. - Mike Tyson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 09/02/2016 23:19, Richard Brown a écrit :

On 9 February 2016 at 23:14, jdd wrote:

...

I don't really know howto manage an international association, but I know for sure that having one in some countries could make life better. mot sport associations works that way, local relays, international covers.

didn't you see people saying they used to buy boxes to help suse?

that said there is not here and now a great movement in that direction :-(

Yes, and SUSE stopped doing it because it's not a sustainable business model

internationalization or boxes? nobody ask for boxes, manual may be (but it's probably too expensive)

openSUSE doesn't need money to survive

it's not a matter of surviving

We need contributions

Lets focus on that, don't talk, don't pay, just DO

DO making people come more how? one of the main reason to have some organization is precisely to make people come. and I think we are pretty short of ideas on the subject, we do not need incantations, but actions. It's not true to say that money is never a problem, else we should have ton's of booth kits in every language and we have not. But mostly, Having some people pay is a way to participate, and if somebody wants to pay a small fee each year it's better than nothing Say to be practical. IMHO we need ten people that accept to engage on the "friends" group to be able to begin something. The only risk is to don't have more than now and lose some of our $, but much less than what I already spend in a year on the subject. Right now I don't see the 10 people. So I wont continue to argue very long. If one want to be in the 10, please write so here and double this by a personal mail to me (just to be sure I don't miss it) thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 10/02/2016 19:15, Jim Henderson a écrit :

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:43:13 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

It's not true to say that money is never a problem, else we should have ton's of booth kits in every language and we have not.

Arguably, something like this should be produced on-demand, rather than being warehoused for use. That's what the local reimbursement process is intended to be used for.

For what I have in mind the page https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Local_Material_Production_Reimbursement need at least large improvement, as do the TSP system. Take as example the first brochure I found in google: http://geeko.ioda.net/git/artwork/Marketing%20Materials/Flyers/openSUSE%20br... when printing such a thing, printing french version may be pretty easy, only change one plate on the machine (text one) and run for 2000 ones. if I had to print this myself, the cost would be pretty high. I know it's not that easy, transportation cost are very high, but having at least one good doc printed in several languages would be very nice. and, if the print is organized around this, the cost may be reasonable there are several kind of expenses: * local event ones. If printed locally, very cheap. print on color (green :-) paper on own laser printer. Banner around 25€.. not worth a refund (for me at least) * national one. Kind of brochure above. I think it's nearly mandatory to have one or two docs (Leap versus Tumbleweed, for example). on one of the cheaper french dealer http://www.vistaprint.fr/depliants-personnalises.aspx?txi=14950&xnid=AllProductsPage_Brochures+(linked+item)_Marketing+Materials_All+Products&xnav=AllProductsPage only a A4 folded on three pages is 700€ for 5000. I'm pretty sure SUSE can have a better price and sure I can't pay and wait 3 month the refund. It was not possible some years ago. If this changed, some examples should be shown on the wiki

Perhaps a solution here would be for me to step down from the local reimbursement team, and for jdd to pick it up?

Jim

certainly not jdd NB: forgive me if I'm not always very easy to understand. Writing this in English is very difficult for me, much more than writing a bug report :-( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Wow, a lot of stuff to read. I am sorry for top-posting but I find easier for me at that point instead of looking aroud to so many posts to quote. When it comes to localizing material things are pretty easy. We have 14 different language speaking mailing lists, 15 if you count opensuse-project as an English langouage plus 6 of them that are specificly to localization (find all that to http://lists.opensuse.org/ ). The easiest think someone can actually do is go to those lists, organise a marketing localizaton hacathon and after that make a budget of how much money the print of that stuff costs and send the budget to the Local Reimburshement Program for aproval. Even if you manage to make a foundation I don't really understand how this will help for localization to be simpler. Now when it comes to donations we have to make clear at least from what I understood based on Jdd's writes is that people will donate to an organization that will donate those money to the openSUSE project so the option to donate to the project won't be inside the openSUSE wiki or any other 'formal' openSUSE web page or document. All that leaves me with a personal query of how all this will eventually work. So I don't personally like the idea but if people want to do it and can do it, in the end of the day is in their plate and people can do it as far as I am conserned. But I still cannot see how something like that will work under those circumstances. Have a nice day Kostas 2016-02-11 4:34 GMT+02:00 Jim Henderson :

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 20:49:29 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

Le 10/02/2016 19:15, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 09:43:13 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

It's not true to say that money is never a problem, else we should have ton's of booth kits in every language and we have not.

Arguably, something like this should be produced on-demand, rather than being warehoused for use. That's what the local reimbursement process is intended to be used for.

For what I have in mind the page

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Local_Material_Production_Reimbursement

need at least large improvement, as do the TSP system.

I would agree that those changes are changes that should be looked at.

...

...

Perhaps a solution here would be for me to step down from the local reimbursement team, and for jdd to pick it up?

Jim

certainly not

I suggest that not because I think you're giving me (or the local reimbursement team) a hard time and are looking to supplant what we're doing. Quite the opposite - when I agreed to join (lead?) that team, I had a lot of free time on my hands.

Since then, I've started a new job (which I've been at for over a year now) and am moving into management. I've also taken on an advisory board position with the Linux Foundation - in addition to being a non-technical admin of the openSUSE forums and a Micro Focus knowledge partner.

Oh, and I'm moving at the end of this month, and again at the end of April (if construction has completed on my new place by then).

So I'm spread pretty thin, and far from thinking I can continue to take on additional tasks, I'm actually looking to narrow my focus a little bit so I have time to myself and to spend with my family as well.

I'm more than happy to hand it off to someone who has the time and the energy to promote the program the way it needs to be promoted, because (as I mentioned before), it hasn't been used since I joined it - I've received zero requests. So there's money there to do some of the things you outlined above, but nobody knows about it because I haven't had the time to put into reaching out to various people or groups to see how we can better promote openSUSE at those events.

...

jdd NB: forgive me if I'm not always very easy to understand. Writing this in English is very difficult for me, much more than writing a bug report :-(

It's not a problem, jdd. :) In my professional life, I'm a technical writer and content strategist, and there are days that I can't write clearly enough in my native language, much less in a language that's a second language for me.

Jim

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On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 11:05:23 +0100, jdd wrote:

Le 11/02/2016 03:34, Jim Henderson a écrit :

...

...

...

Perhaps a solution here would be for me to step down from the local reimbursement team, and for jdd to pick it up?

Jim

certainly not

I suggest that not because I think you're giving me (or the local reimbursement team) a hard time and are looking to supplant what we're doing. Quite the opposite - when I agreed to join (lead?) that team, I had a lot of free time on my hands.

Since then, I've started a new job (...)

this is perfectly reasonable :-)

that said I think that if you had no demand it's because the system is not fitted to needs.

Possibly, or just that people don't know about it.

too complicated for small expenses, and large expenses can't be managed at this level.

Possibly - all I know about that is that I haven't tried, having not received any requests. :)

solutions? may be merge with the marketing team, because most of this is marketing. decentralize, that is give some budget to a local member (or local marketing team)...discuss this on the marketing mailing list at first...

Maybe, that also could work. Jim -- Jim Henderson Please keep on-topic replies on the list so everyone benefits -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Le 11/02/2016 22:49, Christian Boltz a écrit :

(Sorry if this looks like advertising. Unfortunately ;-) I'm not connected to flyeralarmor or rainbowprint in any way (except being a

thanks, I will save this and see if they send to France jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

On 9 February 2016 at 19:05, jdd wrote:

...

it's a curious but constant feature of human nature than one is more linked to groups they have donated money than to the one they receive money from.

the goal is to give people something where they can aggregate, because it's they own.

And this is precisely another reason I think this is a bad idea

If people think that giving money to openSUSE means they are entitled to order what openSUSE does for them, that is totally wrong

openSUSE is not _owned_ by it's sponsors, neither SUSE nor any private donations

openSUSE doesn't have customers. We're not shipping a product and offering telephone, maintenance, and development support for customers paying an annual subscription (SUSE do that)

We're _owned_ by our contributors. Contributions are the currency that matters.

They can aggregate to openSUSE by contributing. They own openSUSE by contributing.

I think you are ignoring people, businesses and other organisations who cannot contribute, but who might like to express their gratitude. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (3.9°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - free dynamic DNS, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org