-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 06/16/2015 02:51 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Robert Schweikert wrote:
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On 06/14/2015 02:41 PM, Per Jessen wrote:
Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:
On Thu, 2015-06-11 at 20:45 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
Françoise Wybrecht wrote:
Sharing and communicating on a mailing list ... is a non-sense when we do nothing else then giving different points of vue.
Slow & slow, most ppl go back to their priorities and shut up.
I cannot change that ...and I honnestly don't know who can or could.
As said ... when we just go on talking and in fact, nothing change, everybody will logically just contribuate to the distribution, and forget the community (project). Yes, it was the fun ...
To maintain a living, thriving community, the community has to be in charge, completely. The community has to have complete ownership of their "baby". In my opinion, that is not situation at openSUSE. I am deliberately not judging whether that is good or bad, I am just observing.
Sorry about my late response, on the weekend my priorities are different :-)
In which parts is this not the case?
All the admin for instance. Is anyone in the community running bugzilla for instance?
No, does anyone care to?
Over the years, I am pretty certain I have offered to do admin a number at least twice. Not bugzilla specifically, anything really. I have also proposed donating hardware to e.g. OBS, but that's not acceptable either unless it comes delivered by truck or in the form of a cheque.
Yes, a "drop it off" arrangement would be difficult, but I am pretty certain we could cover the shipping cost with "local reimbursement" money, then the hardware would get delivered with a truck ;) I understand that the "local reimbursement" program was suspended for a while, but it is back and it should be used for things that benefit the project.
Maintaining infrastructure does not only cost money for the hardware, it also takes people to maintain it. If you find a sponsor that is willing to host all the machines and hand over the keys to the data center I doubt there would be a big revolt at SUSE.
We know "it also takes people to maintain it", yet volunteers from the community are not accepted.
Yes, for certain levels this is correct. Again, no one should expect that SUSE will hand over the keys to the data center.
There is not a board meeting I can remember where we have not talked about turning off things that are not maintained at the administration level.
TBH, I don't recall seeing that in the minutes ever. My mistake, I'll have to reread them.
- From the meeting minutes of the board face to face meeting last year: """" 6. Meeting with Lars We do not have sufficient maintainers for our infrastructure, examples - - Planet.o.o is unmaintained - - Connect is unmaintained - - Lizards is "unmaintained" and basically duplicates Planet - - our web presence is not well maintained + Planet Kostas suggested and contacted a potential maintainer New person will work with Lars and Richard to investigate a different framework to use for Planet and develop an understanding of the expectation for being a maintainer. If this does not work the last resort would be to scuttle Planet.o.o + Lizards.o.o Basically duplicate functionality with Planet.o.o AI:Lars and Richard to contact current maintainer to investigate state and assure that an understanding exists about what is expected w.r.t. maintenance. We think we need either Planet or Lizards, but not necessarily both, will keep both if they are properly maintained + www.o.o We have found a company that is willing to donate time to design and maintain a new web site The company with then become a sponsor of the openSUSE project and will be displayed as such AI: Bruno to follow up on the progress + Connect Our voting system is tied to connect Generally not maintained Usefulness is questioned If we find a good replacement for voting connect may be a target for shutdown + It is perceived by Lars that one problem of the lack of infrastructure maintainership is the lack of experience/knowledge Lars and his team are available to mentor people that are interested in maintaining an openSUSE infrastructure service """"" Sorry the cut and past is ugly, I did try to make it little more readabl e.
There are guidelines where anyone can run stuff for opensuse.org and get root access to a VM. Lars has given talks about this at oSC over the last couple of years. Yet, no one has stepped up to actually do the work.
Where is the todo-list where one can sign up? As I said, I am pretty certain I have offered my help more than once.
I'll hook you up with Lars and team in a separate e-mail. Thank you.
YasT also appears to be in the hands of SUSE.
How so?
Robert, I responded with a couple of examples where the community is clearly not "in complete ownership of their "baby"". That's all. I totally appreciate that e.g. yast and xen are open to contributors, but that's a far cry from complete community ownership. If you can point us to non-SUSE contributors to YaST, I agree that YasT is not entirely in the hands of SUSE. I did in fact once offer to maintain the LILO section of the bootloader module, but then LILO was deprecated, well .... the same thing happened for JFS fileystem support in the partitioner. There was never any call for help, btw.
Things have changed, as I said, we need to let water under the bridge be exactly that. We cannot conjure up non SUSE contributors to YaST. All the YaST team/SUSE can do is lower the barriers to entry. I would claim this has been done, very successfully from my point of view. There have also been numerous announcements on the YaST list, sorry for not digging those up right now, about modules that will no longer be maintained by the YaST team and that need new owners, similar to the "packages for sale" announcements that happen on -packages from time to time.
It would be nice to get rid off these misconceptions somehow.
More openness and transparency would be probably help a lot, but that's a broken record if I've ever heard one.
Agreed it is a broken record, but apparently what ever is being done, that is perceived by some to provide more transparency and openness is not helping, and not received as such. Or the information is not being made available in a timely sufficiently loud messaging campaign. Thus, my suggestion would be to provide concrete examples and not just say "more transparency", rather say, "it would be nice if we could get more information about why YaST is SUSE owned as far as commits and maintenance is concerned" Someone can respond to that question with detailed answers and hopefully provide the transparency needed. This is no different than anything else, asking in general often produces non satisfactory answers. Before the questions about money start at this point let me say this: The "budget" is one area of the project where complete transparency will not happen. SUSE is not going to give a dollars and cents account of all the money that is being spent on the project. Whether people like this or not is really immaterial, that is the way it is and we have to deal with it. Yes, I realize this will set off another storm in the water glass, sorry. However, for those with itchy fingers right now ask yourself first if it is really that important how much money SUSE spends? Are you involved in the project only because SUSE supports the project financially? If there is another community that has a bigger sponsor would you contribute there because they "get more money"? Please, please, please, lets not go down that rat hole.
No, I don't want to own the project as a whole, but I'd be happy to assume ownership and dedicate my time to those bits where I feel qualified.
Great, step right in, there are plenty of holes to fill if you need help finding the holes let me know and I'll be happy to help you identify them.
Just point me to the todo list. I asked about that one about a month ago -
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00164.html
When I subsequently asked how to join the release team, there were no answers:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-05/msg00425.html
You are well on your way ;) Later, Robert - -- Robert Schweikert MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU Public Cloud Architect LINUX rjschwei@suse.com IRC: robjo -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVgHpZAAoJEE4FgL32d2Ukh0UIALVVTojX74DGiAFS1FBlwh9w +wShQm6Phq09qyrYCOCYLwK7u5n5AS8W3puBNjq7isTooRuo0Upw1B03A2GYR1gR t6EehSAIQ/6KB9Ix+AsDybmuGGMR2X1wYJsFs2p+u8A9+p/MPjRQcfTfE2O135rg WfncdDM7egVySP5hCMMazQ0uXmFLpKKFniRrH4fllc/ehoavE20/nIAjKDRm53sH 35Wnyn3aHfdF8uuVLfRjVQRFVHMbK2LfwqTHuFsB3iSW2YrlGAqy7EWp2WFnqkJm 72xadsjGpAhx3T10YPLrYliPI2oc34aLnBAgNqGIUUfbZ/DHJc/5us8RSE/NOI0= =cUln -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, email: opensuse-project+owner@opensuse.org