On Tuesday June 22 2010 03:59:27 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:05:03 +0200, Pascal Bleser wrote:
So, what should we do ?
Help those of us who run those forums communicate more effectively with the membership there. *Please*.
I have no idea what you define as "membership" but the communication channels are well defined. If you are talking about how to become a member then I think http://en.opensuse.org/Members explains it pretty nicely.
Rupert, Andreas, and Pavol (among others) have all participated in the discussions or have interacted with the forums.
If every thread about the strategy discussion on the forums morphs into a hate-of-everyone-else-because-they're-not-on-the-forums on the 3rd post instead of trying to stay focused and on topic, what's the point ?
The point isn't "hate everyone else because they're not on the forums" but what I have long sensed is a frustration on the part of some of the forum members that the forums are thought of as "second class".
The forum members are no "second class" but they simply fail to acknowledge that bitching on said forums doesn't help anyone. So they either will start to use communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently makes up those "forums".
That has led some of the discussion now into a review of how some of those members feel they have been wronged in the past. That's only natural to do and I expect it will run its course as we focus on the future.
But some people need the catharsis of getting all their frustrations out on the table before they can move forward.
How about starting to "contribute" then in any way? Either test stuff _and_ file it via the proper channels (not those "forums" but bugzilla and so on). Also we are in need of documentation, packaging and so on. Point being bitching on said "forums" doesn't help anyone and most of them can't be arsed to contribute more than spamming there which doesn't qualify as useful contribution.
Again, what should we do ?
Help us clarify what needs clarified, understand where the community members in the forums are coming from, and make the forum members feel like a valued part of the community. Let's face it - many of the openSUSE user base use the forums to get help, and they get some good help in the forums - but the developer presence in the forums is practically nonexistent.
TBH, I don't give a rats ass about some mindless bubbling. If you want to contribute it is pretty obvious (e.g. report broken stuff in bugzilla and fix anything you encounter broken - which also includes missing docs on the wiki which shouldn't be that hard to do, or learn packaging or help people out or .... ).
I've suggested in the thread in the forums (and I'll suggest here as well) that what might help with this is for the openSUSE developer community to leverage the forums as a first point of contact for users and work out (with those of us who are the admins in the forums) a means for issues to be escalated from the forum membership to the developers. Right now there's no real good guideline that I've seen other than "file a bug in bugzilla" - which makes the forum users feel disconnected from the project.
As long as those "forums" are handled (via admins) and structurwise as they are now I wont touch them with a rotten stick. I argued with your "admins" quite some times to make it more usable structure wise so one could easily find the interesting parts but no way. Now finally take - e.g. linux-club.de which has quite some better ordering so one could answer the interesting subjects besides having to dig through some "ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crap that is unrelated to the subject. It was always declined with some "That's included in applications" and so on - e.g. I couldn't give a fuck about random applications but were interested in the security and server part - but no, "you" (as in the "forum" admins) refused to create some specific topics for those ....
I'll read the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic. And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if someone manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it.
Let's work together on this - as I said above, it's important to understand where this audience is coming from; it's a mix of technical and non-technical users, which in and of itself can be a volatile mix because of differences in how those two groups communicate.
Well, said audience has to accept that not everyones worlds spins around those "forums". So how about they simply accept this and adapt?
Mind you, I didn't even reply on the forum thread itself, because it's firing into every direction with more half-truths and complete-wrongs being spread with every single post. I believe it would be pointless as it would end up into an endless discussion about everything and the kitchen sink.
Any idea on how to approach that serious issue ?
Well, for the forum part, how about you finally admit that the current structure sucks and you make some more topic related stuff (e.g. security and server - take, once again, linux-club.de as an example which is miles better that your current swamp since one is able to find issues one is interested in instead of having to wade though countles "OMG ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!" crap). Also you could finally admit that some people prefer NOT to use forums for their tasks since it is less effective. So just get over it and e.g. use some mailing lists..
I think it starts by building trust between the forum users and the leadership in the openSUSE project. That started, I think, when Rupert was elected to the board (as he was involved in the original forum migration project IIRC). Right now, from the forum side of the fence (and speaking for myself and for what I perceive in the users in the forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.
Then how about stop bitching "OMG they don't use the forums but some years older mailing list, it has to be some conspiracy. Finally get over it and accept that most devs do NOT use that forum since it is quite some waste of time (accessibility and structure wise)
I think it also starts by acknowledging that things haven't worked as smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as developer involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception in providing assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm not aware of, though).
Now take e.g. that http://forums.opensuse.org/community/soapbox/440294-kde-3- a.html thread and wonder yourself why anyone with a sane mind wont touch those "forums" with a rotten stick.
I haven't talked this over at any length with the other forum administrators (I'm one of the 3 admins), but would be willing to do whatever I can to help facilitate such a discussion with the rest of the admins and other staff.
Well, considering that your current structure plain sucks and you have been resistent to any arguments since more than a year I dare to say it is time you think it over. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-project+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-project+help@opensuse.org