On Tuesday June 22 2010 03:59:27 Jim Henderson wrote:
On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 02:05:03 +0200, Pascal Bleser
So, what should we do ?
Help those of us who run those forums communicate more effectively with
the membership there. *Please*.
I have no idea what you define as "membership" but the communication channels
are well defined.
If you are talking about how to become a member then I think
explains it pretty nicely.
Rupert, Andreas, and Pavol (among others) have all
participated in the
discussions or have interacted with the forums.
If every thread about the strategy discussion on
the forums morphs into
a hate-of-everyone-else-because-they're-not-on-the-forums on the 3rd
post instead of trying to stay focused and on topic, what's the point ?
The point isn't "hate everyone else because they're not on the forums"
but what I have long sensed is a frustration on the part of some of the
forum members that the forums are thought of as "second class".
The forum members are no "second class" but they simply fail to acknowledge
that bitching on said forums doesn't help anyone. So they either will start to
use communication channels that are used by the rest of the world to provide
their input or their input will get lost within all that mess that currently
makes up those "forums".
That has led some of the discussion now into a review
of how some of
those members feel they have been wronged in the past. That's only
natural to do and I expect it will run its course as we focus on the
But some people need the catharsis of getting all their frustrations out
on the table before they can move forward.
How about starting to "contribute" then in any way? Either test stuff _and_
file it via the proper channels (not those "forums" but bugzilla and so on).
Also we are in need of documentation, packaging and so on. Point being
bitching on said "forums" doesn't help anyone and most of them can't be
to contribute more than spamming there which doesn't qualify as useful
should we do ?
Help us clarify what needs clarified, understand where the community
members in the forums are coming from, and make the forum members feel
like a valued part of the community. Let's face it - many of the
openSUSE user base use the forums to get help, and they get some good
help in the forums - but the developer presence in the forums is
TBH, I don't give a rats ass about some mindless bubbling. If you want to
contribute it is pretty obvious (e.g. report broken stuff in bugzilla and fix
anything you encounter broken - which also includes missing docs on the wiki
which shouldn't be that hard to do, or learn packaging or help people out or
I've suggested in the thread in the forums (and
I'll suggest here as
well) that what might help with this is for the openSUSE developer
community to leverage the forums as a first point of contact for users
and work out (with those of us who are the admins in the forums) a means
for issues to be escalated from the forum membership to the developers.
Right now there's no real good guideline that I've seen other than "file
a bug in bugzilla" - which makes the forum users feel disconnected from
As long as those "forums" are handled (via admins) and structurwise as they
are now I wont touch them with a rotten stick. I argued with your "admins"
quite some times to make it more usable structure wise so one could easily
find the interesting parts but no way. Now finally take - e.g. linux-club.de
which has quite some better ordering so one could answer the interesting
subjects besides having to dig through some "ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crap
that is unrelated to the subject. It was always declined with some "That's
included in applications" and so on - e.g. I couldn't give a fuck about random
applications but were interested in the security and server part - but no,
"you" (as in the "forum" admins) refused to create some specific
the other threads, hoping that they're a bit more on topic.
And I'd even happily take position on each of those attacks, if someone
manages to make a civil and focused discussion out of it.
Let's work together on this - as I said above, it's important to
understand where this audience is coming from; it's a mix of technical
and non-technical users, which in and of itself can be a volatile mix
because of differences in how those two groups communicate.
Well, said audience has to accept that not everyones worlds spins around those
"forums". So how about they simply accept this and adapt?
> Mind you, I didn't even reply on the forum
thread itself, because it's
> firing into every direction with more half-truths and complete-wrongs
> being spread with every single post. I believe it would be pointless as
> it would end up into an endless discussion about everything and the
> kitchen sink.
> Any idea on how to approach that serious issue ?
Well, for the forum part, how about you finally admit that the current
structure sucks and you make some more topic related stuff (e.g. security and
server - take, once again, linux-club.de as an example which is miles better
that your current swamp since one is able to find issues one is interested in
instead of having to wade though countles "OMG ITZ NO WORKZ!!!!!!" crap). Also
you could finally admit that some people prefer NOT to use forums for their
tasks since it is less effective. So just get over it and e.g. use some
I think it starts by building trust between the forum
users and the
leadership in the openSUSE project. That started, I think, when Rupert
was elected to the board (as he was involved in the original forum
migration project IIRC). Right now, from the forum side of the fence
(and speaking for myself and for what I perceive in the users in the
forum), the forums feel very disconnected from the rest of the project.
Then how about stop bitching "OMG they don't use the forums but some years
older mailing list, it has to be some conspiracy. Finally get over it and
accept that most devs do NOT use that forum since it is quite some waste of
time (accessibility and structure wise)
I think it also starts by acknowledging that things
haven't worked as
smoothly as they could have, and that the forums by and large have been
the "red-headed stepchild" of the project (especially as far as developer
involvement is concerned - James Tan is a notable exception in providing
assistance in the Studio forum; there may be others I'm not aware of,
Now take e.g. that http://forums.opensuse.org/community/soapbox/440294-kde-3-
a.html thread and wonder yourself why anyone with a sane mind wont touch those
"forums" with a rotten stick.
I haven't talked this over at any length with the
administrators (I'm one of the 3 admins), but would be willing to do
whatever I can to help facilitate such a discussion with the rest of the
admins and other staff.
Well, considering that your current structure plain sucks and you have been
resistent to any arguments since more than a year I dare to say it is time you
think it over.
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