Στις 31/12/2010 10:30 πμ, ο/η jdd έγραψε:

Le 31/12/2010 09:24, Stathis Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) a écrit :

...

Most users are windows based. many winbdows users don't even know they use windows, nor than Word is not free

my sister that uses mails don't know what is an "application" (she don't use any webphone :-) - notice she is 78, not 18 :-)

This is not a problem that any GNU/Linux distribution should care about to fix. This is an education problem. If someone doesn't know how to use a computer or the software of that computer then someone should explain to him what it is and how it works. In the case of Free Software what we - the advocates of free software - *should* do is not to create an alternative to proprietary software "beautiful working doll" but to also explain to people: what is hardware, what is software and what is free software. Why is important about their freedom to use free software and why is dangerous for their freedom to ignore the difference between free and proprietary software. It will not take more than some hours to have a conversation with somebody and explain these things, and it will save much more time than creating more and more "software dolls".

my wife keep asking "go and show me my friend on the net" and give me a xxx@yyyy.zz. I have to say "this is a mail, not an Internet web site adress".

Now, with Diaspora there will be many misunderstandings, though. They give you a "handle" in the form of: user@joindiaspora.com which as they write: "This is not actually an email address yet, but one day maybe it will. For now, you should log on to your diaspora account and try and search for your friend using the address they gave you". This thing indeed changes the common computer language around the planet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On 12/31/2010 11:09 AM, jdd wrote:

Le 31/12/2010 10:01, Kostas Boukouvalas a écrit :

...

...

my sister that uses mails don't know what is an "application" (she don't use any webphone :-) - notice she is 78, not 18 :-)

This is not a problem that any GNU/Linux distribution should care about to fix. This is an education problem.

aren't w also in the educational bussiness? Whyt should anybody care of hardware related problems?

When one buy a pre-installed computer there is nothing to care about.

I know openSUSE is mainly devoted to power user, and I don't see how we could do otherwise :-), but we have probably to adapt our language to the day of today.

A power user may once become a geek, but is definitively not at the beginning.

The model may be a webphone. anybody is said to be able to use it, even if it's not true :-(. Android is a good version of what can be done. (webphone vocabulary is prone to be widely accepted)

jdd

I don't totally agree, about education "enforced" What you want to realize is kind of : Hey guys I buy a new car, sit in it, and why this damn f**cked device did drive me to the destination I've in mind ? Well, one day it could happen, but I really hope that day we don't use anymore cars :-) Do a simple test, take a new digital television, with sat,cables, and internet access, and give it to someone that just have a plain old analogic tv. Sure that person will not see any show before a certain amount of hours of works and reading. In that case, you ask/paid someone who know to setup that stuff. Why should it be different with IT things ( computer, tablets, phones etc ?) One day this kind of people will remember IT pro exist and bring "great and valued of" work to make IT things working, perfectly adapted to their need. Let these pro people earning their money, and payback us with contributions. Happy new year to All. -- Bruno Friedmann (irc:tigerfoot) Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member User www.ioda.net/r/osu Blog www.ioda.net/r/blog fsfe fellowship www.fsfe.org GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 vcard : http://it.ioda-net.ch/ioda-net.vcf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Le 31/12/2010 13:33, Helen a écrit :

Sometimes a 'simpler' language can be irritating and even vague - there's no doubt about what 'laptop' means (we can always google it) but 'a computer with screen and keyboard included' could maybe mean one of those all-in-ones with a keyboard included in the package, like an iMac.

The important thing is to be consistent and clear. When talking to a specific audience, add explanations when appropriate.

yes but we don't make the consistence for we are only a small niche. I don't say we have to change all our vocabulary, of course the total newbie is not our target, but may be we can gain having *some* doc using a different langage. let alone having a firefox only live cd, or openoffice only one. I use this some (quite a lot) years ago for school use. A computer one use. Could be an entry point for us jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Στις 31/12/2010 02:39 μμ, ο/η jdd έγραψε:

using a different langage.

Now, I understand more clearly the topic of the discussion. Have a look at http://www.fsf.org/resources/what-is-fs and http://www.fsfe.org/about/printable/printable.en.html Good work have been achieved the past years on coming closer to the plebs. (Excuse me. Yes I know the negative meaning of the word plebs. I just want to point out clearly the target audience). The above material could be characterised as "Free Software for dummies". If you mean to create such material for openSUSE, I'm strong for it and I could help translate this material in Greek. This in fact is the reason that in Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution of which I'm also a member, the Ubuntu Manual has been created. Nothing to do with the classic SuSE Manual fat 400-pages paperback, just a comprehensive guide for the first steps in the distribution. This would be good. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 31 December 2010 19:20:54 jdd wrote:

Le 31/12/2010 15:52, Kostas Boukouvalas a écrit :

...

Now, I understand more clearly the topic of the discussion.

we even should have to define "software".

I want to be clear. We don't have to do so with avery bit of text we have on the wiki, of course. We only have to provide:

* *at least one* page with very low level info regarding openSUSE (including seek for help or we are not for you :-(). On the main page of my LUG (http://www.culte.org/) I have a big title "Je n'y comprends rien" (I don't understand a bit") aimed to such people. We have at least to be friendly to such people. If they wonder to read our doc, may be once they may become members :-))

Yes, having something like that surely makes sense. A page explaining software, operating systems, Free Software, linux, openSUSE... Probably can be largely copy-pasted (with attribution) from wikipedia. In the interest of "DO, not TALK" I created an Etherpad page to write a "I am new to Linux" page on the openSUSE homepage. I have created a skeleton and copy-pasted info from wikipedia and the FSF page. Someone needs to check if we can copy-paste from the FSF site ;-) http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD And help is welcome!

* if it's easy (it looks like), have some openSUSE version usable for them. Not that should be shown as a big progress, all the contrary, but a way to say: if you can"t cope with the regular ope,nSUSE, may be this one can be usefull.

For example, have a live cd with "xinit firefox -- :1 &" as only available starting choice. Many people will think it's enough :-))

jdd

"Computers".

A computer is the hardware you are using right now to read this text. It have mostly a screen (you see this on the screen), a keyboard (you see AZERTY or QWERTY on it) and a mouse (the strange little box you have the hand on right now :-).

LOL... for a second there I thought you were dead serious On the upside, anyone who needed this level of explanation probably wouldn't find their way onto IRC to harass the support crew. I wrote some stuff based on wiki quotes and toned it down quite a lot - probably too much IMHO - remembering we aren't aiming at noobies. openSUSE might be perfectly useable by people who are computer illiterate, but they aren't our target market. cheers Helen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 03 January 2011 12:04:18 jdd wrote:

Le 03/01/2011 11:51, Helen a écrit :

...

openSUSE might be perfectly useable by people who are computer illiterate, but they aren't our target market.

thats perfectly true, but we can say this to them gently :-). Who knows what they will become the some next years :-)

Sure but we can fix that later on... Writing for complete and utter computer newbies doesn't seem like a very useful thing to me. Sure, there are quite a few of them, but I doubt they would end up on the openSUSE page. And if they did, I doubt they can decide what operating system they use - such newbies either use a computer at work or school or a place like that or have a more knowledgable friend who takes care of their computer.

jdd

On Wed, 2011-01-05 at 12:45 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Monday 03 January 2011 14:18:43 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 12:04:18 jdd wrote:

...

Le 03/01/2011 11:51, Helen a écrit :

...

openSUSE might be perfectly useable by people who are computer illiterate, but they aren't our target market.

thats perfectly true, but we can say this to them gently :-). Who knows what they will become the some next years :-)

Sure but we can fix that later on... Writing for complete and utter computer newbies doesn't seem like a very useful thing to me. Sure, there are quite a few of them, but I doubt they would end up on the openSUSE page. And if they did, I doubt they can decide what operating system they use - such newbies either use a computer at work or school or a place like that or have a more knowledgable friend who takes care of their computer.

...

jdd

Either way, we have created this page: http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD

points to Helen for most of the writing. This could be a page available on our homepage. Manu, as you're working on that, could you find a spot for this?

Sure -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

I'm just taking a look now to fix up some of the English. A few edits have introduced 'too much information' which I'm toning down a little bit. I'll try to make it as polished as possible and will save the revision when I'm done. One idea - in print, the 'four freedoms' would look nice separately in a highlighted box. cheers Helen On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Kostas Koudaras wrote:

I just read the whole etherpad and I find it complete, I added the four Freedoms and I really cannot find anything else I could add so that we'll keep it simple. Take a look on it but my opinion is that this task is over. I really liked the whole idea and if we make it a Flier I will definitely will translated at Greek. Kostas

2011/1/5 Manu Gupta :

...

On Wed, 2011-01-05 at 12:45 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 14:18:43 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 12:04:18 jdd wrote:

...

Le 03/01/2011 11:51, Helen a écrit :

...

openSUSE might be perfectly useable by people who are computer illiterate, but they aren't our target market.

thats perfectly true, but we can say this to them gently :-). Who knows what they will become the some next years :-)

Sure but we can fix that later on... Writing for complete and utter computer newbies doesn't seem like a very useful thing to me. Sure, there are quite a few of them, but I doubt they would end up on the openSUSE page. And if they did, I doubt they can decide what operating system they use - such newbies either use a computer at work or school or a place like that or have a more knowledgable friend who takes care of their computer.

...

jdd

Either way, we have created this page: http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD

points to Helen for most of the writing. This could be a page available on our homepage. Manu, as you're working on that, could you find a spot for this?

Sure

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Hey this looks great Kostas. Scribus is a fantastic tool, but I did find it difficult to use at first. I used 'view' so online preview I think, so I don't know if I'm seeing it exactly as is. As I'm seeing it, the text is very close - I'd make the borders a little bit bigger (more white at each side) - that allows room for folding too. Can you see if you could put a light colored background image under the text perhaps in one section? In the revised text you note I cut the 'Why Use Free Software' right down to just be the four freedoms, thinking that would look nice in a colored box. You can of course use the previous revision if you wish, just make sure your headline is 'Why Use' not 'Why To Use' and check the grammar carefully. Great idea having flyers ready to print. (hmm.. gosh did we end up with an openSUSE Great Inspired Punch Line? ) Free Your Mind with Free Software Your Computer - Your Way, with Free Software Find Software Freedom with Linux cheers Helen On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Kostas Koudaras wrote:

 For some reason when I thought of the print idea I said why not try to make a draft on Scribus? So I took the texts as where on etherpad and made a draft,so I made one just to see and tell me if you like the idea,if you do when we finalize it I could try to make it happen,though I must warn you that is the second time ever I open Scribus. Kostas

2011/1/6 Helen :

...

I'm just taking a look now to fix up some of the English. A few edits have introduced 'too much information' which I'm toning down a little bit.

I'll try to make it as polished as possible and will save the revision when I'm done.

One idea - in print, the 'four freedoms' would look nice separately in a highlighted box.

cheers

Helen

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Kostas Koudaras wrote:

...

I just read the whole etherpad and I find it complete, I added the four Freedoms and I really cannot find anything else I could add so that we'll keep it simple. Take a look on it but my opinion is that this task is over. I really liked the whole idea and if we make it a Flier I will definitely will translated at Greek. Kostas

2011/1/5 Manu Gupta :

...

On Wed, 2011-01-05 at 12:45 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 14:18:43 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 12:04:18 jdd wrote: > Le 03/01/2011 11:51, Helen a écrit : > > openSUSE might be perfectly useable by people who are computer > > illiterate, but they aren't our target market. > > thats perfectly true, but we can say this to them gently :-). Who > knows what they will become the some next years :-)

Sure but we can fix that later on... Writing for complete and utter computer newbies doesn't seem like a very useful thing to me. Sure, there are quite a few of them, but I doubt they would end up on the openSUSE page. And if they did, I doubt they can decide what operating system they use - such newbies either use a computer at work or school or a place like that or have a more knowledgable friend who takes care of their computer.

> jdd

Either way, we have created this page: http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD

points to Helen for most of the writing. This could be a page available on our homepage. Manu, as you're working on that, could you find a spot for this?

Sure

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On Thursday 06 January 2011 08:44:45 jdd wrote:

Le 06/01/2011 07:58, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

...

For some reason when I thought of the print idea I said why not try

to make a draft on Scribus?

the text is much too long for a flyer, and a flyer can fall in hands of computer illiterate, that needs at least some words to understand it's not for them :-)

When writing an online text, one is at least sure somebody read it through a computer :-) - writing this I just notice that some TV are now able to browse the web, but it's not yet so frequent we have to worry :-)

Sorry if I don't participate more, but I'm not at home

jdd

I am afraid JDD is right, this is too much text for a 2-page flyer. It just doesn't work... I do like the idea of a very newbie-friendly flyer but it should be much, much shorter. I am afraid all of linux, operating systems and free software AND openSUSE just doesn't fit on one flyer :D BTW the folders here: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Marketing_materials#Folders_and_leaflets aren't finished yet, maybe we can put a bit more effort here - they target the 90% of the people we see at conferences we visit all the time ;-) The text we wrote for newbies is great for our webpage, let's keep it at that for now. How often do you meet people who don't know what an operating system is at a conference?

http://ietherpad.com/noMEXbsHA5 Shorter version On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Helen wrote:

However there are the regular Free Software Days and things of that nature that aren't computer-geek specific ie, market stalls and University information days.

I'll make a cut-down version of text if anyone is keen for a flyer.

Helen

...

The text we wrote for newbies is great for our webpage, let's keep it at that for now. How often do you meet people who don't know what an operating system is at a conference?

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Well I've already written the short version, so there's some text there, maybe it's useful maybe not. I'm not going to spend too much time on beginner users, since they are not our target market, though I agree that some background on license, antivirus and so on is a good idea. I don't deal well with endless stragetgy and meetings. Give me a task to do and I get it done if I can. Helen On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Kostas Koudaras wrote:

Ok so in order not to mix things up would you like to end that and start a new conversation about all kind of printed material we need? Jos remember when you told me to start pushing the creation of the two fliers(unsuspected users and  potential contributors),then in a meeting you told me to hold on until we finish the strategy, since we started them again I could try give them a form, but all that better in an other conversation,so that we keep it clean. Kostas

2011/1/6 Helen :

...

However there are the regular Free Software Days and things of that nature that aren't computer-geek specific ie, market stalls and University information days.

I'll make a cut-down version of text if anyone is keen for a flyer.

Helen

...

The text we wrote for newbies is great for our webpage, let's keep it at that for now. How often do you meet people who don't know what an operating system is at a conference? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

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On 06/01/2011 11:38 μμ, Helen wrote:

Well I've already written the short version, so there's some text there, maybe it's useful maybe not.

I'm not going to spend too much time on beginner users, since they are not our target market, though I agree that some background on license, antivirus and so on is a good idea.

I don't deal well with endless stragetgy and meetings. Give me a task to do and I get it done if I can.

Helen

I totally disagree with Helen, Beginner users ARE our target market. 1. Microsoft wants beginner users so they have them addicted to their products. I think they're not focus on the server products as much as they care about programs for the mass. Until now their marketing on that is more than 100% success. 2. Beginner user doesn't care if the OS is with a green Start button, blue bar and meadow background. He/she cares to have a PC that will use to be productive (we focus on end user and not web administrator). Also cares weather he/she doesn't have to search for the software and the crack of the software (licences etc). Until now (I heard) that only Apple does that. You open your PC and you work. 3. Advance users, don't need us to make flyers with a nice text on them. They already know what openSUSE is all about and they already decide if openSUSE or any other distro is the best for them. Well, that was one of many reasons I didn't fit with Greek Fedora community. They were searching for contributors and not end users. Until now, Greek openSUSE community joined events based on promotion of openSUSE to beginner users (either on Linux or advanced windows users that use cracked software). Why don't we focus to flyers for schools? The kids are the next generations of computer users and admins. Ubuntu in Greece is based on users. That's why they rule here, although they only joined 2-3 of tech events during the past year (they didn't make release party for 10.04 or 10.10). Anyways, those are some of my thoughts. Stathis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On 07/01/2011 04:41 μμ, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

I think we are talking about different things. The openSUSE strategy (while not yet rectified) states that our target user is this: We cater for users who are interested in computers and want to get work done, experiment or learn.

That means grandma who doesn't care about computers is NOT a target for openSUSE. However, her niece who sets up her computer and maintains it might very well be a target user for openSUSE.

In other words, we focus on people who are at least interested in learning about computers. If we start focussing on people who barely used a mouse before and don't want to know about computers other than "how do I open hotmail" we can better stop. Because openSUSE is not ready for them and never will be. Such users need someone to help them with their computer.

Agree. Those people who are interested in learning about computers are characterized as beginner users, right?

But those users are interested in computers, yes? So they must almost surely know at least some basics. I don't oppose writing a very basic folder and using it in some situations (like a school, as you wrote) but while users are good and the future is important we also have to think about the now.

Imagine you are successful and get 100.000 new users, half of them school children. Who is going to answer their questions? We don't have the resources for that... Who will solve the bugs they find? Many of them will be small usability issues for which we don't have the resources to fix them...

The growth of our userbase has to go hand in hand with the growth of our number of contributors - like you. So yes, it is important to get new users. But be sure to teach them to help each other and to build up a support infrastructure with volunteers or else they will be very disappointed because nobody can help them...

From my short experience, when I install openSUSE to a friend's computer and he/she faces a problem, he/she will call me and not ask the question to the list or forum, even if he/she is interested in computers and is an average user. I'm 100% sure that he/she will call me and ask me: "Stathis, I have a problem...". Regarding the school focusing, Mr Stallman told us that when we go to schools to promote FOSS the reply is "but the kids will use windows at their jobs, so we don't need FOSS" and when we promote FOSS to companies they reply "but the kids in school are taught in windows. We need money to re-educate them on FOSS". So what is right and what is wrong? As an answer to your question about users, what is our goal actually? To get everyone from other OS? To get everyone from other distros? I prefer to have 50.000 new children that will ask questions etc, even if I don't have resources. It's statistically certain that even if I had the resources, I will lose some (I count 10.000 users). But I prefer to have 50.000 new young users and from all of them will get 1000 contributors and 39.000 users and future clients (out of the 100.000 new users). From those new users some can become our future resources plus the FOSS educated kids are potential customers for Novell and SUSE (if we earn them). I hope I didn't mixed the whole thought since I do it sometimes now I study pathology of digestive system.

Thanks. I hope my thoughts were helpful too :D

Yes. Very. Maybe I also mixed up the first thought of jdd. Stathis -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 08 January 2011 12:07:38 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 07.01.2011 17:27, schrieb Stathis Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr):

...

From my short experience, when I install openSUSE to a friend's computer and he/she faces a problem, he/she will call me and not ask the question to the list or forum, even if he/she is interested in computers and is an average user. I'm 100% sure that he/she will call me and ask me: "Stathis, I have a problem...".

Regarding the school focusing, Mr Stallman told us that when we go to schools to promote FOSS the reply is "but the kids will use windows at their jobs, so we don't need FOSS" and when we promote FOSS to companies they reply "but the kids in school are taught in windows. We need money to re-educate them on FOSS".

To first: Yes, I know these problemes. Always there´s a problem with a computer in my family (they all using Windows, so they _are_ problems) they call me. Sometimes I came with a openSUSE 11.2 GNOME live-CD and saved somethings. But if I say, that Linux is the optimal OS, they just laugh at me and say, that Windows is much better (they don´t show any arguments pro Windows, they just say: no. I don´t wanna Linux).

You should stop helping with windows problems. Tell them you use linux and don't know about windows or don't want to know. If they want your help they can use linux. Seriously. I did this, moved some ppl over to linux and the others don't bother me with stupid windows questions anymore!

To second: I know a school right here, that using Linux. First, the Heinrich-Böll-Gymnasium here, that uses Debian, and the Gymnasium zum Altenforst, that uses Linux for software-changes and administration stuff.

Awesome! go there and do an interview or article with them :D

So, I think open source is always there and the companies will understand.....

But for education, we have edu-l-i-f-e, or not?

Yup.

confused kdl

On Friday 07 January 2011 17:29:28 jdd wrote:

Le 07/01/2011 15:41, Jos Poortvliet a écrit :

...

That means grandma who doesn't care about computers is NOT a target for openSUSE. However, her niece who sets up her computer and maintains it might very well be a target user for openSUSE.

yes.

I started this thread only to makes us note that other users exists and that we have to be polite and friendly with them. We can say "we are not for you, eventually ask some friend, sorry. Come back in some time, if you are more friendly with computer, we will be proud to help you become an openSUSE addict."

one or two pages, one or two flyers, that's all.

Hey, don't think I don't support it - I do. If we have the text and layout I will even pay for printing them. But I personally, right now, prefer to work on the other two ones because I think they are relevant to more ppl we meet at conferences... A benefit of this thread already is that we got a simple text on the webpage (once Manu is ready with that) so that's good. And we have a start with that for a flyer or something, so - also good.... THanks for that :D

jdd

On Friday, January 07, 2011 05:41:23 am Kim Leyendecker wrote:

In general I ask me why we can´t do something like videos that explains how you can use openSUSE.

1) Hands to do the job. 2) Knowledge of movie (film) production. Any movie has a plan how to make it and part of it is in heads of producers, and the other part is script. I compare that to mechanical part production, there is a schematic for each part, there are instructions how to assembly one, but neither of them is so detailed that someone without trade can do anything with them. 3) Programs: 3.1) For film montage (movie editors). All I tried are broken, or lack features. 3.2) To take picture from the screen actions. RecordMyDesktop is not in active development, so it will work as long as some dependency doesn't introduce incompatibility.

I mean, If you see it on a flyer, you maybe understand this way, but you don´t _see_ how it´s done. You see some pictures, but in a video, you can really _see_ how things happens.

Fliers are just one of methods to introduce subject and they can't be sized as some book called The User Manual. It is possible to tell a lot in one flier, and using images is a must, but they are not educational, they have to be pretty to attract reader to ask for more.

Maybe we can make a Youtube-channel for this things and can do a page called "openSUSE (or Linux) for newbies" like kernelnewbies.org or something like this.

There is openSUSE channel on YouTube. Creating one newbie site is fine, but again there is the same problem as with movies (films), we lack hands and expertise to create one. Take, for instance, http://en.opensuse.org . It is boring, largely text wiki. No images. Not that we don't like to have some, but someone has to take them, prepare them to be useful within educational text. First highlight items that are mentioned in text, enumerate those highlights so that is easy to find them and relate to descriptions in text, or better create slides that one can move forth and back as needed. For slides we need plugin (MediaWiki calls them extensions) that will allow image presentation. There are some, but for some reason not installed (I don't remember what was the reason not to have one, incompatibility with used MediaWiki version, or that extension used too much of server resources). Also, we don't have guide lines how to highlight text. Which method to use: circle area, change brightness of the area, change color saturation; What color and font to use for enumeration, where to place numbers. I think that is worth to mention, that there is lack of understanding how important are images. In the world of openSUSE majority that decide about layout are software developers, or developers like, people. They are fine with text as programs are texts, and they are talented and trained to read large texts without problems, memorizing on the fly symbols, objects, methods and their relations. Majority of them can't understand why other people can't do the same, or they, outright, hate pictures as distraction in text. I remember one removing nice pictures from text, with comment "No nice pistures". I guess the guy that added them is now somewhere else adding his nice pictures to some other project that doesn't show repulsiveness to niceties.

thanks kdl

-- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday, January 08, 2011 09:32:34 am Denis Leslie wrote:

I've been impressed with the videos made by Nixie Pixel. Here's a link to one from her Ubuntu linux YouTube channel where she demos the use of Kazam.

http://www.youtube.com/user/nixiedoeslinux#p/a/u/2/yqedu_lxcv4

I stumbled earlier on her videos and was impressed with quality, but she is not alone that we can use as example. I remember video about creating video. Short and with enough material to wake someones curiosity to start experimenting on his/her own. That is ideal for type of kids that any distro would like to attract. -- Regards, Rajko -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Video is a lovely idea, but do we have any contributors who are keen and capable with video? As far as I know our video tools on linux, as Rajko mentions, are not mature so we are probably not attracting keen video creators to openSUSE. It takes a lot of time and effort to make a good quality video so people either have to be very keen to do it, or we need to feel that it's the very best way to present that particular information. There is more to creating a good video than just hitting 'record'. And I mean in terms of user experience, not just technical issues. As a user, I hate long, slow videos that take too long. I can scan a page of text very quickly to pull out the information I need. A video I have to watch to the end, and if someone takes too long I get impatient and think about all the download megabytes they are chewing up! Technically, vision quality needs to be great and if it isn't available in a high enough resolution, I can have trouble seeing the screenshots even with my glasses. So not only does a video creator need a good understanding of openSUSE and the feature(s) they are demonstrating, but also a good understanding of how to present that information and explain it well in a straightforward, clear way, as well as having the technical ability to record and publish it correctly. A good video is enjoyable for sure, and if someone is keen to do videos I say 'go ahead' but only if you are confident that you can make a good quality product. cheers Helen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Am 08.01.2011 21:40, schrieb Helen:

There is more to creating a good video than just hitting 'record'. And I mean in terms of user experience, not just technical issues. As a user, I hate long, slow videos that take too long. I can scan a page of text very quickly to pull out the information I need. A video I have to watch to the end, and if someone takes too long I get impatient and think about all the download megabytes they are chewing up!

Okay, when´s ok for jdd, he can do a video. Maybe we can combinate the page with a vid, so that we´ve got all information on a page, and in the end, you can download some videos, if you need more help to understand. So we´ve got the page, for people who just wanna read, and a video for people who need something like this to understand the operating system, the programs or just everything better. good luck kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador powered by openSUSE 11.3 KDE This mail was composed under Linux Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Am 09.01.2011 13:29, schrieb jdd:

we have to write a script. Basically what do we want on the video?what duration? what target user? where can we discuss this without boring others?

jdd

Q:What want we do on the video? A: To show how you can connect with the internet, browsing with firefox and getting mails with KMail or Thunderbird Q. For which people this video could be interesting? A: For not-technical people I think. Where can we discuss this without boring others? We can create a website. Maybe www.opensusebeginners.org or something like this. Then we make three categories: 1.) Beginner 2.) Advanced 3.) Poweruser And people who thinks they are beginners, can watch this, people who are "advanced" don´t need to watch the podcasts/vids of the beginners. A Poweruser can watch videos about working as root on the shell or compiling the kernel. kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador powered by openSUSE 11.3 KDE This mail was composed under Linux Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Le 09/01/2011 13:42, Kim Leyendecker a écrit :

Where can we discuss this without boring others?

We can create a website. Maybe www.opensusebeginners.org or something like this. Then we make three categories:

no. I do't where we can publish but where we can discuss the content of the video, the script and the making of. I can create a mailing list of my own (I don't think we need yet an openSUSE one)or simply crosspost please, interested people, contact me privately asap thanks jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Am 09.01.2011 15:13, schrieb jdd:

what does this mean? connect with the internet is done by launching firefox. Launching firefox is just a way of opening the menu, going to applications, internet and clic on firefox.

Yeah, I mean something like this: a person (maybe you) explain, how you can connect to the internet. (It´s not done by launching Firefox by the way, you first have to connect via WLAN or what ever.) Then you can show, that FF is running. The person have to _explain_ what happened on the screen. In my mind, the scene looks so: - You start talking, how you can connect (as an example) to the internet. Then the camera turns to the screen and you show how you connect there Something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiLOQ6OnDYA or this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3U89FCLhG8 He´s a nice example I think. He explains and shows on the desktop I mean something like this. Next point: Writing a script: I´m not really into something like this, and I don´t wanna say something about it. You looks like an expert for this, so why you can write a script? I think YouTube is the right way. So really much people can watch it. sorry if I misunderstand you kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador powered by openSUSE 11.3 KDE This mail was composed under Linux Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On 06/01/2011 11:26 μμ, Stathis Iosifidis (aka diamond_gr) wrote:

If I were newbie, I would prefer a flyer with more pictures such as cartoons. When I help installing openSUSE to my newbie friends, I explain them the GNU and that there are also other Linux distributions, they ask me questions such as antivirus, why Linux (although there are plenty of positives) it's behind the scene (I reply it's marketing). Also they ask me why is free etc. I think people need fast food and a flyer explaining with cartoon (or cartoon pictures) is what we need.

Forgot to mention that it doesn't need translation to many languages etc... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Am 06.01.2011 08:49, schrieb jdd:

Le 06/01/2011 06:20, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

...

jdd

...

...

Either way, we have created this page: http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD

this text is fairly good. However, we should add a part "is openSUSE for you", based on the defined goals. We shouldn't fear to say "openSUSE may not be (yet) for you, try to learn a bit more and then you may benefit of all the goodies of openSUSE"

jdd

+1 I think when we say it, the people will think that we really try to help them. I mean, it´s easy to say:" Yes that´s works for you" and then never care again. So, jdd´s idea is great, I think! kdl -- Kim Leyendecker (kimleyendecker@hotmail.de) openSUSE Ambassador powered by openSUSE 11.3 KDE This mail was composed under Linux Have you tried SUSE Studio? Need to create a Live CD, an app you want to package and distribute , or create your own linux distro. Give SUSE Studio a try. www.susestudio.com. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday 06 January 2011 18:13:26 Manu Gupta wrote:

Have a look at this too http://en.opensuse.org/Concepts

That is actually a very interesting series of pages about openSUSE, linux and the underlying workings. I can't find any way of getting there from the homepage - maybe, Manu, this should be easier from the new homepage. How about using the new text we wrote, then link from there to Concepts? Maybe on the top: if you need the basics, read on, if you want to read more in-dept information on getting started with openSUSE, go to Concepts...

On Thu, 2011-01-06 at 11:44 +0100, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

...

Am 06.01.2011 08:49, schrieb jdd:

...

Le 06/01/2011 06:20, Kostas Koudaras a écrit :

...

jdd

...

...

Either way, we have created this page: http://ietherpad.com/HGnVPSDjFD

this text is fairly good. However, we should add a part "is openSUSE for you", based on the defined goals. We shouldn't fear to say "openSUSE may not be (yet) for you, try to learn a bit more and then you may benefit of all the goodies of openSUSE"

jdd

+1

I think when we say it, the people will think that we really try to help them. I mean, it´s easy to say:" Yes that´s works for you" and then never care again.

So, jdd´s idea is great, I think!

kdl

On Thursday 13 January 2011 13:48:07 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 13.01.2011 12:53, schrieb Jos Poortvliet:

...

On Thursday 06 January 2011 18:13:26 Manu Gupta wrote:

...

Have a look at this too http://en.opensuse.org/Concepts

That is actually a very interesting series of pages about openSUSE, linux and the underlying workings. I can't find any way of getting there from the homepage - maybe, Manu, this should be easier from the new homepage. How about using the new text we wrote, then link from there to Concepts? Maybe on the top: if you need the basics, read on, if you want to read more in-dept information on getting started with openSUSE, go to Concepts...

+1

The text looks really great. Maybe you can combinate it?

That is also an idea. Kim, maybe you'd like to try and merge Concepts with the text that we wrote? It's mostly checking if the text we wrote is on Concepts and if not, adding it to the Concepts page by copy-paste and some minor modifications... ??? Would be quite awesome :D

good luck kdl

writing my other mail, I noticed it may be difficult for complete newbie to download and burn a dvd but wa have an online demo possible, on Studio!! could it be possible to make a demo live dvd available to the large public from something like Studio?? just clic and try? jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 03 January 2011 11:00:15 Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 03.01.2011 10:39, schrieb jdd:

...

could it be possible to make a demo live dvd available to the large public from something like Studio?? just clic and try?

Like Studio? A good tool, the testdrive. But when I open it with Firefox 3.6.13/Windows I can´t run Testdrive. So I think beginners won´t like something, that don´t run under their Windows.

Under openSUSE and Ubuntu it runs perfect. A little bit slow but perfect.

Weird, it is just flash, should work almost anywhere...

kind regards kdl

http://live.opensuse.org/ Its here :) On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 14:16 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Monday 03 January 2011 10:39:26 jdd wrote:

...

writing my other mail, I noticed it may be difficult for complete newbie to download and burn a dvd

but wa have an online demo possible, on Studio!!

could it be possible to make a demo live dvd available to the large public from something like Studio?? just clic and try?

You mean like online running it? Like testrun? It is possible, but expensive - testrun costs quite some resources...

...

jdd

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 14:58 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Monday 03 January 2011 14:17:41 Manu Gupta wrote:

...

http://live.opensuse.org/

Its here :)

Wow, didn't know that. Why is there no link on our frontpage to this?!?!?

Reason being we do not have infinite bandwidth.. it does not work always

...

On Mon, 2011-01-03 at 14:16 +0100, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

On Monday 03 January 2011 10:39:26 jdd wrote:

...

writing my other mail, I noticed it may be difficult for complete newbie to download and burn a dvd

but wa have an online demo possible, on Studio!!

could it be possible to make a demo live dvd available to the large public from something like Studio?? just clic and try?

You mean like online running it? Like testrun? It is possible, but expensive - testrun costs quite some resources...

...

jdd

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org

Le 03/01/2011 14:17, Manu Gupta a écrit :

http://live.opensuse.org/

Its here :)

great!! openSUSE, the impossible is already done :-)) jdd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-marketing+help@opensuse.org