On Sat, 08 Apr 2017 11:52:43 +0200, Marguerite Su wrote:
On Sat, Apr 8, 2017 at 5:09 PM, Takashi Iwai <tiwai@suse.de> wrote:
Well, suppose you install only noto-sans-cjksc-fonts for Simplified Chinese locale, and visit a Japanese web page. Would it be shown correctly with Japanese glyphs even for the CJK unified ideographs?
If my understanding is correct, it wouldn't. When you install noto-sans-cjkja-fonts in addition and choose it explicitly, then you can show the Japanese glyphs for such letters properly, though.
I'm not familiar with the terms of Japanese Language...so I'll speak in plain English.
Part 1:
As you know, there're some common chars in Chinese and Japanese, eg "坂".
If I install SC only, the "坂" on a Japanese website will be displayed using SC glyphs.
and the Japanese only chars will be displayed using JP glyphs because Chinese doesn't have them.
It'll be the same for Japanese. the common chars will be displayed with JP.
the Chinese only chars will be displayed using SC, eg: 煚
That is, if you install only one variant, all CJK chars can be shown and understandable.
But with slightly difference in glyph styles.
Do you want the display effect to be that perfect that every char needs to be displayed in correct glyph style?
Yes. Otherwise it appears strange to me.
Apparently not. You just want to avoid the "口口口口口" issue for a foreign language.
That's why I said no one will install a second one if the chars have already been displayed.
No, it's not the only requirement. Often we *need* to have the correct output from the web page. Imagine if you want to print out some official web page written in Chinese (to declare at airport or at embassy) but with *-cjkjp-fonts: would Chinese government official accept / prefer such a print out? I doubt it. The bad thing in this way is that it *apparently* looks OK although it's incorrect. "Understandable" and "correct" are different. Just like a difference between "word" in English and "Wort" in German.
Maybe you supposed that the same char eg "我" will be displayed as "我" in Chinese but "你" in Japanese?
Of course not. Maybe that is another new thing driven by Google's deep learning ;)
No, there's no such char at all. CJK doesn't have that big difference for "immigrant" chars.
They look every much similar. The only difference may be, eg:
The rotation degree for "丿" might be slight different, but both will still be in the same direction.
Part 2:
If you install both.
On a localized system (with zh_CN.UTF-8 or ja.UTF-8 locale):
The Japanese chars will be displayed with JP.
The common chars will be displayed in JP.
The Chinese only chars will be displayed in SC.
because I wrote the language specific prepend policy. JP will be the preferred one.
And as the common chars are ambiguous for both languages, it'll be displayed with the preferred font.
Part 3:
If you install both.
On a Latin system (with en_US.UTF-8 locale):
Everything will be displayed in JP except for those Chinese only chars.
Because the prepend policy doesn't and can't cover this case.
So, when multiple noto-sans-cjk* fonts are installed, the situation is still very same as OTC, right? Then it means that we *do* still have the same bug. There are tons of situations we need such multiple fonts. That is, we have to fix it properly in anyway via fontconfig.
Sorry, I'm confused by the argument here. I supposed that splitting to subpackages for each region and weight is for reducing the size as the primary goal? We might need to reach to some compromise between the reasonable size reduction and the easy installation / management, but the above doesn't look well-explaining to me.
Yes. split subpackages so we can form a small group for DVD later.
Please read the above "Part 3" first. that is the problem I want to resolve.
Because each of the CJK SC/TC/JP/KR fonts covers for all CJK (just the order is different, eg for CJK JP, it'll display texts using JP glyphs first, but CJK SC will display texts using SC glyphs first)
If you install two or more of them on a Latin system,
fontconfig will not know which glyph style is preferred, it'll pick using alphabetical order, that is JP.
In my assumption (see "Part 1"), no one will install two or more.
A Chinese will pick SC variant by himself because he's familiar with SC only.
And then Japanese can be displayed too.
So there's no motivation for him to install JP again.
But what if that guy installs JP?
Every common chars will be displayed in JP style on his Latin system.
It annoys him because he's Chinese...
Now comes the issue I want to solve.
I want SC to be used for display even he installed both.
Then I can't use NotoSansCJKSC-hinted.zip as source code.
I need to head to the NotoSansSC.zip as source code.
Because that tarball contains Chinese only. and NotoSansJP.zip contains Japanese only.
They can be used together now. (I still don't know how common chars display yet)
But NotoSansSC.zip doesn't contain the Noto Sans SC Monospace.
There's no such font, if you want a native monospace, you can only use Noto Sans CJK SC Monospace, which is in NotoSansCJKSC-hinted.zip.
So:
NotoSansCJKSC-hinted and NotoSansSC.zip must be used as source code both.
But in the final product, noto-sans-cjksc-fonts contains the Noto Sans SC and Noto Sans CJK SC Monospace.
Every other stuff will be deleted when packaging.
So it will not affect the RPM size, but we need to host more stuff on OBS and in the .src.rpm.
But since no one raise that need. I think we don't need to be that complicated.
Just assume no one will install two fonts should be okay.
Hmm, that assumption is very naive, I have to say, sorry. If people in Latin environment require CJK, they would often need not only one of CJK but *some multiples* of CJK; i.e. in YaST2 language setup, both Chinese and Japanese are marked as the supported languages. Then what happens? The "supported" fonts are installed automatically, thus both noto-sans-cjksc-* and *-cjkjp-* are installed ==> Ouch. And, many CJK-native people rather prefer the correct glyphs in other languages (and it's sometimes a must), thus multiple fonts are requirement. That being said, I still think the fontconfig solution (e.g. specifying the preferred CJK in the setup) is mandatory no matter how you do with the fonts. At the same time, we can think of splitting the fonts. But I don't think we need to mix up CJK to each variant. If the appearance issue is fixed by the fontconfig setup, why not SC containing SC only, JP only JP? It makes things easier, you can convert straightforwardly from the source zip. thanks, Takashi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-m17n+owner@opensuse.org