[lame self follow-up, sorry..] Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:

Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2020, 09:21:10 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

...

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

Hi,

this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.

For the record, if someone is eager to give 5.9 kernel a try, they can use the package from Kernel:HEAD OBS project.

And for just another record:

The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.

and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.

BTW, it's drbd, that is messed up again for 5.9, even with compatibility patches applied: home:frispete:kernel/drbd.

Given, OBS will catch up, the drbd issue can be examined in home:frispete:kernel:HEAD/drbd. While I really see the power of coccinelle in kernel development since a long time, generating coccinelle scripts on the fly might be intellectually fun, but is an awful concept for serious kernel module packaging, IMHO. Maybe I am also simply too stupid. Cheers, Pete

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 18:46:13 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 05:54:09PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:

...

The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.

and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.

All I can say is that seeing a "fix" like this presented on two mailing lists devoted to open source projects makes me very sad.

I'm very sorry, if I hurt your feelings. For one, I'm very aware of the topicality of this modification. In no way, this is a fix, just a dump and bloody work around for the fallout of two fighting parties (Romans vs. Gauls). Here, it solves the problem of using Blender effectively (similar to those, that run it on windows and *laugh* at us..). This hurts as well, and effectively damages *our* reputation for a serious and valid windows replacement (again). I've been in this fight for more than two decades now, and we didn't won much terrain in this respect, unfortunately. I'm glad, that Christoph Hellweg was able to raise some attention by delicate ringing, but as Jiri initially pointed out, a cure is a week away at the very least. I expect it more likely in the range of several weeks.

From my POV, the whole case feels a like a tail trying to wag the dog.

Let's get back to serious work, get 5.9 into TW, and fix the fully open sourced, but awful drbd fallout. Sorry again, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

Self-crippling comes to my mind.

Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist. Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed. Michal Kubecek -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org

Hi On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:43 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 01:54:00 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

...

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 02:38:19PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

Self-crippling comes to my mind.

Yes, "self-crippling" is probably the most fitting term for users who decided to ignore the long existing (20 years?) licensing problem and keep buying NVidia hardware because they believe it's their right to demand someone to "just make it work somehow" (i.e. do some dark magic to mask the incompatibility) so that they can keep pretending the problem does not exist.

Even more fitting for those who do it on a rolling distribution with latest kernel like Tumbleweed.

Michal, I share your sediments from deep inside my open source heart, but..

All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1:

NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}

depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation

Out of interest: do they have a rational argument why it's got to be Nvidia? Best regards Thomas

on top of the Win10 basement, and about 10% finally use TW primarily (because their favorite game is Minecraft, which is mostly fine with a decent GPU, using extensive texture packs and a huge view distance, *even* on Linux!). Those guys love Krita and Blender as well.

I always ask myself, why is AMD not able to catch up in this segment. My humble guess is, they're *too* successful. Fun fact: almost all PCs I've talked about are equipped with their CPUs. AMD is messing up the GPU market, *because* their GPUs are so successful in special markets (crypto currency and such). Attracting the youth is *far* more harder.

Attracting people is something we as openSUSE have to catch up on as well. Things like GPU acceleration for all kinds of workloads (UI, GFX, KI) should work out of the box for GPUs with open sourced drivers, but contrasts a lot with the X vs. Wayland mess, HiDPI issues, HDR absence, tearing on simple video playback, ...

Cheers, Pete

-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org

Hi On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 12:27:47 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:40:53 CEST schrieb Thomas Zimmermann:

...

Hi

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:29:43 +0200 Hans-Peter Jansen <hpj@urpla.net> wrote:

...

All those kids, that came to me this year to buy/build a PC (I do this from time to time for pedagogical reasons) have a list in their hands with must

have equipment, and guess what's *always* on position Nr. 1: NVIDIA GTX 20{70,80,90}

depending on their budget and granted, they never want to discuss the manufacturer part of the story. About 30% get an openSUSE TW installation

Out of interest: do they have a rational argument why it's got to be Nvidia?

Not a rational one. But if they spend 300..500 Euros for their GPU, they tend to not risk *something*. That's, what they learned from us old fart

Actually, playing safe if you only have your pocket money to spend sounds like a fairly rational choice to me. At least, I wouldn't blame them...

Counter question:

If you were *liable* for somebody else's investment and granted, you're *not* *a* *bank*, would *you* take such a risk yourself? (eg. a GPU replacement from AMD to NVIDIA due to driver issues in game XY, FPS abysmally low, ..)

I guess not. Rarely someone asks me what GPU to buy. I tend to recommend the cheapest non-Nvidia, or a good AMD-one for games. For my modest needs, I've been buying Intel or AMD for ~15yrs and never looked back. And I tend to recommend against Nvidia specifically because of the Linux driver situation. Best regards Thomas

Cheers, Pete

-- Thomas Zimmermann Graphics Driver Developer SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Geschäftsführer: Felix Imendörffer -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun 18 Oct 2020 10:07:47 AM CDT, Jiri Slaby wrote:

On 14. 10. 20, 8:08, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

If that doesn't happen until 5.9.1²⁾, I won't wait any longer and will proceed with pushing 5.9.1 to K:s and TW.

So Nvidia made the announcements¹⁾. If I googled right, you will have uvm support for new enough gfx cards for 5.9+ by the end of the year, maybe already in mid-November.

I have just submitted 5.9.1. It will appear in Kernel:stable soon. Once 5.8.15 with BleedingTooth fixes is accepted to TW (sr#842044), 5.9.x will be submitted to TW as well.

¹⁾ One of those is at: https://forums.developer.nvidia.com/t/nvidia-driver-not-yet-supported-for-li...

thanks, Hi All With this change I suspect support will be dropped for the older cards, I discovered this when compiling the lc0 chess engine and cuda 11.x.x, no support for Kepler or Maxwell (sm_50 and sm_52), compute_53 and sm_53 is the minimum.

My GT7xx series won't cut the mustard anymore :( -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° SUSE Knowledge Partner (Linux Counter #276890) Tumbleweed 20201014 | GNOME Shell 3.36.7 | 5.8.14-1-default Intel DQ77MK MB | Xeon E3-1245 V2 X8 @ 3.40 GHz | Intel/Nvidia up 16:49, 1 user, load average: 0.10, 1.64, 1.79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org

[lame self follow-up, sorry..] Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:

Am Donnerstag, 15. Oktober 2020, 09:21:10 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

...

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 08:08:25AM +0200, Jiri Slaby wrote:

...

Hi,

this is just so you know: I intentionally linger with pushing kernel 5.9 into K:s and TW. Nvidia (mainly CUDA – uvm module) has licensing problems with 5.9. It always had, but 5.9 forbids this bad behavior now¹⁾.

For the record, if someone is eager to give 5.9 kernel a try, they can use the package from Kernel:HEAD OBS project.

And for just another record:

The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.

and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.

BTW, it's drbd, that is messed up again for 5.9, even with compatibility patches applied: home:frispete:kernel/drbd.

Given, OBS will catch up, the drbd issue can be examined in home:frispete:kernel:HEAD/drbd. While I really see the power of coccinelle in kernel development since a long time, generating coccinelle scripts on the fly might be intellectually fun, but is an awful concept for serious kernel module packaging, IMHO. Maybe I am also simply too stupid. Cheers, Pete

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 18:46:13 CEST schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 05:54:09PM +0200, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

...

Am Freitag, 16. Oktober 2020, 11:42:20 CEST schrieb Hans-Peter Jansen:

...

The current nvidia-gfxG05 builds fine with Kernel:HEAD.

and with the attached patch applied and conditioned correctly, it even builds/ runs fine *including* nvidia-uvm.ko, recovering from the lost CUDA issue.

All I can say is that seeing a "fix" like this presented on two mailing lists devoted to open source projects makes me very sad.

I'm very sorry, if I hurt your feelings. For one, I'm very aware of the topicality of this modification. In no way, this is a fix, just a dump and bloody work around for the fallout of two fighting parties (Romans vs. Gauls). Here, it solves the problem of using Blender effectively (similar to those, that run it on windows and *laugh* at us..). This hurts as well, and effectively damages *our* reputation for a serious and valid windows replacement (again). I've been in this fight for more than two decades now, and we didn't won much terrain in this respect, unfortunately. I'm glad, that Christoph Hellweg was able to raise some attention by delicate ringing, but as Jiri initially pointed out, a cure is a week away at the very least. I expect it more likely in the range of several weeks.

From my POV, the whole case feels a like a tail trying to wag the dog.

Let's get back to serious work, get 5.9 into TW, and fix the fully open sourced, but awful drbd fallout. Sorry again, Pete -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kernel+owner@opensuse.org