Am Freitag 15 Juni 2012, 10:18:13 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

* Markus [06-15-12 10:01]:

...

Hey there. You might have noticed that openSUSE 12.2 has been delayed to mid-September: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-06/msg00141.html

That should be right in time for KR 4.9.1 if I'm not mistaken. Will oS ship with 4.9 then?

Guess you *haven't* been reading about the slippage.

I have no idea what you mean by that and I'd rather get a streight answer to my question. Thanks. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 15 Jun 2012 14:21:02 Felix Miata wrote:

he who made the decision that the topic is not even subject to discussion.

I would expect a more solid argument from you rather than insinuation. Cheers the noo, Graham

On 16/06/12 17:16, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2012/06/16 05:24 (GMT+0200) Graham Anderson composed:

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Felix Miata wrote:

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he who made the decision that the topic is not even subject to discussion.

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I would expect a more solid argument from you rather than insinuation.

I didn't feel like looking it up at the time, but here's the quote: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-06/msg00147.html

Sheesh :-( . I think the first answer by you could have simply been the single word, "No", wouldn't you agree? BC -- Using openSUSE 12.1 x86_64 KDE 4.8.3 and kernel 3.4.2 on a system with- AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor 16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Freitag 15 Juni 2012, 14:21:02 schrieb Felix Miata:

That answer was provided in anticipation of the question yesterday on the Factory mailing list

I indeed did not see in the archive interface that there were already replies to that post.

by he who made the decision that the topic is not even subject to discussion.

I don't get it. A few days ago it was said that openSUSE is a community project and the community needs to discuss openSUSE development again. If someone steps up and packages 4.9, I do not see how an individual in a community project would have the power to veto that. That is, unless openSUSE is not really a community project but a SUSE GmbH project with the aim to replace fired employees with unpaid workers and still call all the shots at SUSE. And btw: Decisions around KDE belong to the KDE mailing list, right? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Am Samstag 16 Juni 2012, 14:51:42 schrieb phanisvara das:

those who do the work get to decide what happens; sometimes it's called "meritocracy".

"community project" doesn't mean anybody who writes an email got the same vote as those who do the bulk of the work, actually produce & maintain the distribution.

I find it strange that I get lectured to read replies in a totally crappy mail archive interface, yet others do not even correctly read the mail they even reply to! Again: I did not write that any random user gets a vote, I wrote that if someone steps up to package KR 4.9, someone else cannot overrule him (at least not in a meritocracy). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat 16 Jun 2012 11:34:53 C wrote:

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Markus wrote:

...

Again: I did not write that any random user gets a vote, I wrote that if someone steps up to package KR 4.9, someone else cannot overrule him (at least not in a meritocracy).

So... are you volunteering? Or are you hoping that Stephan and Will are going to do all the work?

The people who do 99.9999% of the packaging on KDE and openSUSE said.. no, KDE4.9 will not be in openSUSE 12.2 - they have asked for help... over and over, and no one has stepped up... no one has volunteered (and that no-one includes myself :-( ).

The simple answer is KDE4.9 will be available as it is now via the OBS.

C.

you are wrong there are quite few other people beside Stephan and Will who work on packaging kde stuff and testing it... both stable and upcoming stuff... you lost a big occasion to be silent on this. Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 16:21:40 +0530, C wrote:

Sorry... I won't participate in this discussion or any others. I've put my proverbial foot in my mouth enough times here.

said that to myself many times, but still, once in a while the urge to hit the keyboard gets to me. whatever, i'm not always happy with what others write, others not with me, that's life. just listening in on this & a bunch of other mailing lists is all that i really need, to know what's going on, what to expect, and how to solve problems. if i say something and get into a discussion i consider useful or entertaining, that's a bonus. if not, i keep quiet again for a while... -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Lørdag den 16. juni 2012 12:48:34 Markus skrev:

Am Samstag 16 Juni 2012, 11:34:53 schrieb C:

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So... are you volunteering? Or are you hoping that Stephan and Will are going to do all the work?

Last time I tried to package something in OBS the web interface was completely broken -- probably because everyone is expected to use the CLI client or whatever.

But even if it wasn't broken: KR 4.9 as part of 12.2 has already been vetoed -- nothing I can do about whether I volunteer or not.

And to a degree I get it: It's the easy choice. KR 4.8.x will already be past EOL in 12.2. KR 4.8.4 is the last bugfix release.

Afaik 4.8.5 is coming cuz the nepomuksters broke everything in 4.8.4. That might be allowed to enter 12.2. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

to include it in the actual distro, i.e., oS 12.2, isn't something that those who package the whole distro want to consider at this time, which i find understandable. there's enough trouble with this release as it is, and including KDE 4.9 might / is likely to open another can of worms, delaying the release further.

at the date suggested for 12.2 release, mid September, kde 4.9 would have been out for around 6 weeks... releasing a shiny distro with 4.8.4 (probably end of line) looks bad from both marketing and engineering point of view... As you already mentioned it 4.9 is packaged and tested in parallel already... how would that affect the distro kind of beats me... Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

KDE is being packaged and available from OBS for anybody who wants it. to include it in the distro is another thing that doesn't affect only KDE, but the distro as a whole.

indeed would make us look like a progressive bunch... like a distro who likes to offer latest stable version of KDE... and that is bad... isn't it? Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 12:41, Alin M Elena wrote:

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KDE is being packaged and available from OBS for anybody who wants it. to include it in the distro is another thing that doesn't affect only KDE, but the distro as a whole.

indeed would make us look like a progressive bunch... like a distro who likes to offer latest stable version of KDE... and that is bad... isn't it?

"The Matter" is that the values and definitions of "stable" differ. And the defintions of processes to decide what is going into the next release and what just does not make the cut. It makes no sense to bark against a wall, no? So, get your asses in gear, you preachers of "latest stable is upstream stable" and help to get the process of desiging the next release right, but for this one (12.2) the train has left the station. For 12.2 is left to get it working, and right. No half working software. We've had that in the past and it hurt us much more than not having the latest upstream stable. My Idea for the next release would be removing the last (patchlevel) version-number info from any anouncements of KDE in OSS releases, as we do already with Gnome, e.g. for 12.1 it was "KDE 4.7.2 and Gnome 3.2" on the Box / Advert. Let's change that, and give KDE and Gnome parity in the outgoing info, for 12.1 that would have been "KDE 4.7 and Gnome 3.2". That way we could have switched from KDE 4.7.2 to KDE 4.7.3 with no outside trouble, just internal, or even included such patch-level step-up in the updates. But, as said before thats for the NEXT planned release, not the actual 12.2 -- that is already on the finishing line, no such changes allowed, now. Cheers, Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 16:53:03 +0530, Martin Schlander wrote:

Also I don't understand why versionwhores even care, since they'll never use the official released packages anyway.

exactly; release version's first priority is to be stable. even if at release time it _did_ have the latest stable of everything, two weeks later that'd be outdated again, so what's the big deal? if i get KDE from OSS or OBS doesn't make any difference to me. if you're knowledgable enough to know what's going on with release cycle, you also know where to get the version you want. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012 15:02, Rafael Belmonte wrote:

I think If 12.2 is released in the middle of September, it should be released with KDE 4.9, and 4.9.x point releases should be included as regular updates after some time of testing in OBS. <snip>

Please quit beating on a dead horse. It has been decided long ago that OSS 12.2 will be released with KDE 4.8, as there will not be enough time to brush up KDE 4.9 to the point that it will be worthy to be included in RC, Goldmaster, or Box. Full-Stop. No further discussion on this. If you want to be a version whore, then install OSS 12.2 with minimal X, add KR49 to your repo-list, do a install kde from that repo and be happy. But leave us others, especially those that will have to provide support to a much broader user/client base than just ourself alone. -- Yamaban. PS: Reality shows that at least 6 month before distro release is the very last point in time to do more than a patch-level upgrade. Any Distro. -- Are you able to use a calendar? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 16/06/12 15:16, Yamaban wrote:

Please quit beating on a dead horse. It has been decided long ago that OSS 12.2 will be released with KDE 4.8, as there will not be enough time to brush up KDE 4.9 to the point that it will be worthy to be included in RC, Goldmaster, or Box. Full-Stop. No further discussion on this.

If you want to be a version whore, then install OSS 12.2 with minimal X, add KR49 to your repo-list, do a install kde from that repo and be happy.

But leave us others, especially those that will have to provide support to a much broader user/client base than just ourself alone.

-- Yamaban.

PS: Reality shows that at least 6 month before distro release is the very last point in time to do more than a patch-level upgrade. Any Distro. -- Are you able to use a calendar?

+1, I prefere a very stable release with kde4.8 than a release whore with kde4.9. best if kernel 3.4 or newer..:-)) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Please quit beating on a dead horse. It has been decided long ago that OSS 12.2 will be released with KDE 4.8, as there will not be enough time to brush up KDE 4.9 to the point that it will be worthy to be included in RC, Goldmaster, or Box. Full-Stop. No further discussion on this. before full stop... try to be rational... it has been decided that would be 4.8 when a certain date for 12.2...

the date for 12.2 was changed... I find very legitimate the question... and the question shall be debated...not dismissed... and on meritocratic terms... people from opensuse-kde shall decide... otherwise we are a stalinist community... regards, Alin -- Without Questions there are no Answers! ______________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-06-16 17:10, Alin M Elena wrote:

and on meritocratic terms... people from opensuse-kde shall decide...

No, the release manager has the last word. It is a question of integration with the distro, not what the kde people can say. The distro has a very big problem with the release, and you pushing for a newer kde doesn't help at all. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk/cp5QACgkQIvFNjefEBxo3ZACgvb1gUPFApg0VtBfv9JqiqUMt BFwAnR360PT+fAagtHPCMTNakUsZO7mr =0fxH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Lørdag den 16. juni 2012 11:12:30 Markus skrev:

Am Freitag 15 Juni 2012, 14:21:02 schrieb Felix Miata:

...

That answer was provided in anticipation of the question yesterday on the Factory mailing list

I indeed did not see in the archive interface that there were already replies to that post.

...

by he who made the decision that the topic is not even subject to discussion.

I don't get it. A few days ago it was said that openSUSE is a community project and the community needs to discuss openSUSE development again. If someone steps up and packages 4.9, I do not see how an individual in a community project would have the power to veto that. That is, unless openSUSE is not really a community project but a SUSE GmbH project with the aim to replace fired employees with unpaid workers and still call all the shots at SUSE.

And btw: Decisions around KDE belong to the KDE mailing list, right?

Get real. The roadmap, and the freeze deadlines were set ages ago. 12.2 is frozen, period. Every team can't have their own roadmap. You think KDE can be upgraded to 4.9 with all the new dependencies without affecting a ton of other stuff? Even if 12.2 had originally been scheduled for mid september, KDE SC 4.9.0 would still be a very tight match. And 4.9.1, not a chance. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/06/16 11:53 (GMT+0100) Alin M Elena composed:

I find Stephan's veto and the fact he does not even want to discuss it rational at least strange... I respect his opinion but he needs to support it with arguments.

He (with help from others), did so as particular points came up, just IIRC not comprehensively in a single post. Maybe you're skipping reading too many list posts, or not fully understanding both text and implications of the ones you do read. e.g. http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2012-06/msg00141.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00312.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00429.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00320.html http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2012-06/msg00468.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org