RE: [opensuse-kde] Reevaluating updater and PolKit. [was QA testing team plan.]
I read last year that someone is working on a Yast Updater Applet.
Can anyone confirms this?
Cheers!
Roman
Well my first question is what updater was openSuSE using in 11.2 and 11.3? What about earlier updater applets from 11.0 and 11.1? openSUSE has had several since I first started using it at version 9.3. It seems the updater included around 10.3 or 11.0 was much more reliable... Why was it changed? Malvern. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 10 Jan 2012 19:06:26 Malvern Star wrote:
I read last year that someone is working on a Yast Updater Applet.
Can anyone confirms this?
Well my first question is what updater was openSuSE using in 11.2 and 11.3?
What about earlier updater applets from 11.0 and 11.1? openSUSE has had several since I first started using it at version 9.3. It seems the updater included around 10.3 or 11.0 was much more reliable... Why was it changed?
The old YaST Qt updater was written by the YaST team and maintained by them. As YaST evolved, it was ported to use libzypp directly (and PackageKit, via its own abstraction layer), but then the YaST team no longer wanted to spend resources on it, so we had to either maintain it ourselves or take KPackageKit as the upstream maintained code. As we've been using KPackageKit and Apper we have found multiple bugs, mostly in the PackageKit-zypp backend, but a few of them were in Apper, to which the upstream author has been very responsive (and gets more responsive when downstreams work with him). The pk-zypp bugs seem to spring from its origin as a hack to support the SUSE implementation of Meego on netboooks, and are not KDE specific. I challenge the assertion that the gpk tools work any better on GNOME, as I've used these to back-to-back verify 'Apper' bugs are in fact in the backend. It's easy to point back to the good old days where SUSE invested resources from other teams (YaST->updater, Mobile Devices->KNetworkManager) in desktop- specific tools, but we can't wind back the clock, so we need to work with what we have, and fixing Apper/pk-zypp is the cheapest way to do so. If you want to contribute, learning a bit about the Apper/pk-zypp/zypp stack and doing detailed triage of bugs, comparing results vs zypper, pkcon and gpk- *, talking to Daniele for Apper and Duncan for everything below it, is the best way to proceed. This is what I was doing before Xmas and got a couple of bugs fixed, and just needs more time spending on it. The amount of work in a NIH applet wrapped around libzypp with equivalent functionality to what we have now is significant to start up, and to maintain - ask the YaST team. Will -- Will Stephenson, openSUSE Board, Boosters Team, KDE Developer SUSE LINUX GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 10. januar 2012 13:13:04 Will Stephenson skrev:
It's easy to point back to the good old days where SUSE invested resources from other teams (YaST->updater, Mobile Devices->KNetworkManager) in desktop- specific tools, but we can't wind back the clock, so we need to work with what we have, and fixing Apper/pk-zypp is the cheapest way to do so.
The amount of work in a NIH applet wrapped around libzypp with equivalent functionality to what we have now is significant to start up, and to maintain - ask the YaST team.
Even for a real simple one like SuSEwatcher in the good old days, which simply notified about updates and then launched YOU to do the actual installation etc.? Seems to me that you and Duncan and probably others have spent a significant amount of time trying to fix PackageKit stuff. And odds are the minute it starts to work fairly smooth, RH will decide to rewrite/redesign PackageKit completely and put us right back to square one. Of course I'm not an expert, but I'd think with the developer time invested in debugging and fixing the PackageKit stack (with moderate success), it would be possible to write an update notifier plasmoid/systray thing which could launch YOU. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:29, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@...> wrote:
Tirsdag den 10. januar 2012 13:13:04 Will Stephenson skrev:
It's easy to point back to the good old days where SUSE invested resources from other teams (YaST->updater, Mobile Devices->KNetworkManager) in desktop- specific tools, but we can't wind back the clock, so we need to work with what we have, and fixing Apper/pk-zypp is the cheapest way to do so.
The amount of work in a NIH applet wrapped around libzypp with equivalent functionality to what we have now is significant to start up, and to maintain - ask the YaST team.
Even for a real simple one like SuSEwatcher in the good old days, which simply notified about updates and then launched YOU to do the actual installation etc.?
Seems to me that you and Duncan and probably others have spent a significant amount of time trying to fix PackageKit stuff. And odds are the minute it starts to work fairly smooth, RH will decide to rewrite/redesign PackageKit completely and put us right back to square one.
Of course I'm not an expert, but I'd think with the developer time invested in debugging and fixing the PackageKit stack (with moderate success), it would be possible to write an update notifier plasmoid/systray thing which could launch YOU.
Please, to quote a earlier mail: "no plasma!". The use of systray has the additional bonus of working also in gnome with no additional work, as long the program adheres to the freedesktop.org standards for systray. Also works on xfce, fvwm, wm, lxde, etc. One tool for all. Less work for all. Shiny is nice, but full function first. SuSEwatcher did this in his time. To bring "back" a pure SUSE tool has the "payload"/responsibility to be the ones who maintain it, sure. But, see above, RH "owns" PK. On one hand YaST is lauded as the holy grail in system and software management, on the other it's circumvented especially for the updates! No, for the users this makes no sense at all, for them/us this reeks of politics. Not quality, not added value. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2012-01-10 at 17:55 +0100, Yamaban wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 17:29, Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@...> wrote:
Tirsdag den 10. januar 2012 13:13:04 Will Stephenson skrev:
It's easy to point back to the good old days where SUSE invested resources from other teams (YaST->updater, Mobile Devices->KNetworkManager) in desktop- specific tools, but we can't wind back the clock, so we need to work with what we have, and fixing Apper/pk-zypp is the cheapest way to do so.
The amount of work in a NIH applet wrapped around libzypp with equivalent functionality to what we have now is significant to start up, and to maintain - ask the YaST team.
Even for a real simple one like SuSEwatcher in the good old days, which simply notified about updates and then launched YOU to do the actual installation etc.?
Seems to me that you and Duncan and probably others have spent a significant amount of time trying to fix PackageKit stuff. And odds are the minute it starts to work fairly smooth, RH will decide to rewrite/redesign PackageKit completely and put us right back to square one.
Of course I'm not an expert, but I'd think with the developer time invested in debugging and fixing the PackageKit stack (with moderate success), it would be possible to write an update notifier plasmoid/systray thing which could launch YOU.
Please, to quote a earlier mail: "no plasma!". The use of systray has the additional bonus of working also in gnome with no additional work, as long the program adheres to the freedesktop.org standards for systray.
Also works on xfce, fvwm, wm, lxde, etc.
One tool for all. Less work for all. Shiny is nice, but full function first. SuSEwatcher did this in his time.
To bring "back" a pure SUSE tool has the "payload"/responsibility to be the ones who maintain it, sure. But, see above, RH "owns" PK.
On one hand YaST is lauded as the holy grail in system and software management, on the other it's circumvented especially for the updates!
No, for the users this makes no sense at all, for them/us this reeks of politics. Not quality, not added value.
Agreed in all areas. We don't need fancy, we need consistently functional. Having something that is broken all the time makes us look bad. I don't understand the issue with using the YaST updater, I find it works just fine. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Of course I'm not an expert, but I'd think with the developer time invested in debugging and fixing the PackageKit stack (with moderate success), it would be possible to write an update notifier plasmoid/systray thing which could launch YOU.
Please, to quote a earlier mail: "no plasma!". The use of systray has the additional bonus of working also in gnome with no additional work, as long the program adheres to the freedesktop.org standards for systray.
Also works on xfce, fvwm, wm, lxde, etc.
One tool for all. Less work for all. Shiny is nice, but full function first. SuSEwatcher did this in his time.
To bring "back" a pure SUSE tool has the "payload"/responsibility to be the ones who maintain it, sure. But, see above, RH "owns" PK.
On one hand YaST is lauded as the holy grail in system and software management, on the other it's circumvented especially for the updates!
No, for the users this makes no sense at all, for them/us this reeks of politics. Not quality, not added value.
Agreed in all areas. We don't need fancy, we need consistently functional. Having something that is broken all the time makes us look bad. I don't understand the issue with using the YaST updater, I find it works just fine.
Consistently functional, when it comes to udpates, should be *the* single overriding concern. If your updater is broken, users can't apply the updates necessary to fix it when you do actually release them! The YaST updater is good and reliable, no question. The only minor issue I have with it from a user perspective is that when software stack updates come out, it *looks* like no updates are selected, when of course only the software stack update is selected. This may cause the user to start selecting the unticked updates, thinking they have not been automatically selected by accident (I know because not only have I done this myself once, but some of my users have as well). Attempting to apply this update, with the software stack and all the other updates manually selected caused some rather broken behaviour and I ended up having to re-install the system as I recall. But other than that, yes, the YaST updater has always been my first preference. Malvern. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 6:36 AM, Malvern Star <malv_star@hotmail.com> wrote:
Consistently functional, when it comes to udpates, should be *the* single overriding concern. If your updater is broken, users can't apply the updates necessary to fix it when you do actually release them!
The YaST updater is good and reliable, no question. The only minor issue I have with it from a user perspective is that when software stack updates come out, it *looks* like no updates are selected, when of course only the software stack update is selected. This may cause the user to start selecting the unticked updates, thinking they have not been automatically selected by accident (I know because not only have I done this myself once, but some of my users have as well). Attempting to apply this update, with the software stack and all the other updates manually selected caused some rather broken behaviour and I ended up having to re-install the system as I recall.
But other than that, yes, the YaST updater has always been my first preference.
The question is who is going to maintain it. It is a lot easier to maintain a single compatibility back-end than an entire GUI programs, or more likely multiple GUI programs since Gnome users are not going to want to pull in a lot of KDE just to do an update. The original maintainers are not willing to do it anymore, and I would rather not add even more work to the KDE team who already has enough on their plate. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Roger wrote:
Agreed in all areas. We don't need fancy, we need consistently functional. Having something that is broken all the time makes us look bad. I don't understand the issue with using the YaST updater, I find it works just fine.
Well i guess that using YaST updater instead of pk would be a step-away from the common Standard. Not that i'd care that much, and Not that my voice is that important on that topic, but Standards are important. At least for some people. Personally, i Don't give a frick about what updater opensuse is shipping, due to zypper dup Solves all my Problems. Btw, i still ask myself why we don't provide a script that manages the update procedure? It could be that easy: #! /bin/bash su zypper dup What Do you think? Missed i something? -- Kim Leyendecker (leyendecker@opensuse.org) sent from smartphone. sorry for my briefity -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
Dnia środa, 11 stycznia 2012 o 12:18:40 Kim Leyendecker napisał(a):
Btw, i still ask myself why we don't provide a script that manages the update procedure?
It could be that easy:
#! /bin/bash
su zypper dup
What Do you think? Missed i something?
Missed an opportunity for the operator to review the updates that are going to be applied. IMHO, Chris -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org
participants (8)
-
Kim Leyendecker -
Křištof Želechovski -
Malvern Star -
Martin Schlander -
Roger Luedecke -
todd rme -
Will Stephenson -
Yamaban