On Sunday, April 27, 2014 07:51:27 AM stakanov@freenet.de wrote:

New search machine: is there any way to see it's settings or is it thought to be all automagical.

After an update from 4.12.4 to 4.13.1 I have noticed the following regressions and bugs:

Kmail: does not honour the settings for "events" and "special dates" any more. This seems a regression that comes in now every second release. A pity because I use it a lot to not forget the dates. So in the summary even if selected, there are no birthdays shown. But events of the calendar i.e. Eastern are shown correctly.

I agree with you and assume it deleted all categories,tags and labels. I am now recreating the whole stack of categories, labels and tags on my system. Some of them are working fine after tag rebuilding. Special Events is resilient or unable to get a notification on Kontact main page yet.

Import function of notes: looses all the notes and imported nothing. Not a big issue for me as they where "loosable" but still, who uses it and does not find his notes afterwards.....

Same here. All my KNotes before migration are missing. So far, I do not know how to recover them to make them readable again.

Filters in Kmail did not work correctly before and after the update. But who needs filtering when s(he) has a search function, right? Still it would be nice to have this fixed before "Plasma next". What is positive however, is, that with 12.4 there was a regression of the "filter amnesia bug" that now has vanished again as it seems. So at least filter rules are just "not applied instead of vanishing or of putting mail randomly in some locker. Good.

What is good: the network-management and the functionality of it are finally usable, nice and easy even for non Linux users. The choices of being able to show or unshow Mac address etc. and other features are IMO useful. VPN presence and connection status are now shown throughout all personalities which is safe. Thank you for that.

The convenient Default Gateway info is now missing.

All the other things seem to run well for now. If anybody shares the problem with the calendar dates I will file a bug-report. If there is an easy solution (like a setting "hidden under sub-menu 233") then thank you for sharing.

Cheers.

PS: if you have a certain "media-plasmoid" installed, this one holds nepomuk packages. So it has to be eliminated as apparently it has a nepomuk requirement.

--- Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! http://email.freenet.de/basic/Informationen

Regards, Rick Chung -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 April 2014 09.40:15 Rick Chung wrote:

...

What is good: the network-management and the functionality of it are finally usable, nice and easy even for non Linux users. The choices of being able to show or unshow Mac address etc. and other features are IMO useful. VPN presence and connection status are now shown throughout all personalities which is safe. Thank you for that.

The convenient Default Gateway info is now missing.

You can change what informations you want by using a right click on the plasmoid network management settings I'm confident in the fact you will find all what you're looking for. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member & Board GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot ~~~Don't take Life too serious. Nobody gets out alive anyway!~~~ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Sunday 27 April 2014 07:51:27 stakanov@freenet.de wrote:

New search machine: is there any way to see it's settings or is it thought to be all automagical.

The only settings that exist for Baloo is through the systemsettings (Configure Desktop) and then Desktop Search. However as indicated, the only thing that can be set here are the folders that are to be excluded from the indexing.

Import function of notes: looses all the notes and imported nothing. Not a big issue for me as they where "loosable" but still, who uses it and does not find his notes afterwards.....

This was just fixed upstream and with the next update from KDE:Current, the patch would become available which fixes this issue. Regards Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Dne Po 28. dubna 2014 07:01:47, Anton Aylward napsal(a):

On 04/28/2014 03:53 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

On Sunday 27 April 2014 07:51:27 stakanov@freenet.de wrote: [...] Having just lost all my knotes, which I use quite a lot, and having no way to import then back from my archives, and having a new and undocumented config which, it appears, still doesn't let me override the export format!!!, I am pretty annoyed.

The lost data, is what really annoys me. New features are meaningless in the face of lost data.

This phase of upgrade seems to be displaying what I think of as a 'over-maturity' on the part of the KDE team, gratuitous featureism.

The shift with baloo from "index only what I say" to "index everything except what I say" seems nasty minded and out of touch with users.

Breaking some thing as essential as kmail is another example.

But though all this is the obsession with indexing. The code for this is hard coded into so many components. I think that is very wrong-minded and backward.

I'm not OCD but I don't need this search; I organise my files sensibly, isn't that what a hierarchical file system and long names is for? Have these guys never heard of the term 'taxonomy'?

part of the attraction of the old knotes was that I could arrange my notes in a heairarchy. Have we now lost that? The help fcility is more useless than normal and seems to think that we deal in just one note at a time. More 'out of touch with users'.

Yes I know how to disable indexing. My point is that I don't want the code; it adds complexity and hence the potential for flaws to many situations where its not needed.

If you are going to make use of it then at least make it a plugin.

Fixing the problem of knotes incompatibility and getting my lost data back is all well and good, but why the **** did you produce code that cause it to be lost?

Regular readers will know that I've supported KDE4 though its infancy when many others decried it, and was great to have it mature, but now, well there are terms like "jumped the shark" or "nuked the refrigerator" which apply.

I completely agree. I like KDE, but it has strange custom to break things on upgrade (often related to PIM, which is... ehm... making users very angry) and to release important software too early before they are ready. Why? Why, oh why? I also have to say, that several at least 4 upgrades of KDE and openSUSE were perfectly smooth, so that I didn't expect big issues with this one... All the best, Vojtěch -- Vojtěch Zeisek Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux http://www.opensuse.org/ http://trapa.cz/

Luca, I think Anton means that he want to uninstall Baloo compeltely from his system, just like I do. He doesn't want any Baloo code on his machine. If you're not subscribed to the openSUSE user support list, I just sent the email I've copied below. Keep in mind how many people may be having issues with Baloo and aren't saying anything. Either they don't know they're having problems with it when they are, or they are and they aren't taking the time to report it. Not everybody is a computer scientist, but this new "feature" should not be forced down everybody's throat just because the KDE team thinks that this is way people should be using their computers. In prior version of KDE, Nepomuk's indexing feature was disabled by default, so I never used it. Just for testing purposes, I once tried switching indexing on through the Nepomuk GUI and a process or two started, yet my hard drive didn't seem to be doing anything. Either Nepomuk was broken, or it was unobtrusively indexing my files and didn't hog system resources. It's hard for me to compare Baloo to Nepomuk when, from my impression, Nepomuk wasn't doing anything even when the indexing feature was turned on. Baloo is a whole different story, and I had to turn it off because it was giving me performance problems. I didn't like that by default it's switched on, so the second you log into KDE it starts indexing. I hadn't kept up with any of the changes that were coming with KDE 4.13, and trusted that it would be an improvement over 4.11.4. Therefore, when I was having all types of performance issues related to disk I/O and CPU utilization, it took me time to track down how to finagle with Baloo and stop it. I was surprised that the GUI offers barely any options, and that it's opt-out and not opt-in. I looked around the internet some, and I found a funny post on the Kubuntu forum: "After a few days baloo settled down on my system but on my wife's laptop baloo kept going and going for days making it really difficult to do anything. I found a message that ~/.kde/share/config/ baloofilerc has a line in it under [Basic Settings] Indexing-Enabled=true I changed that to Indexing-Enabled=false and the laptop was useable again, but lost a few search items. It's nice when it works but hell when it hogs the system." I love the beginning where he says: "After a few days", and keep in mind that the 2.5" hard drive on his wife's laptop isn't exactly an icon for longevity. I can only imagine the wear and tear the first iteration of Baloo is doing to SSD's. Baloo shouldn't start automatically the first time a user logs into KDE, but I hate when OS's ask you questions through a dialogue box when you just want to get stuff done. I don't have an answer to how this should be done correctly, but I want to reaffirm that Baloo should _not_ start indexing anything without the user's permission. They're already talking about allowing it to be uninstalled by having the Baloo package be split. I want this, because I want to uninstall it. And if my supposition is correct, I don't think I'll ever be installing it again -- not that I don't think it can become better. I just don't need it. On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 4:48 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

In data lunedì 28 aprile 2014 07:01:47, Anton Aylward ha scritto:

...

Yes I know how to disable indexing. My point is that I don't want the code; it adds complexity and hence the potential for flaws to many

Sorry, but this argument doesn't make sense. This is Free Software. How are you going to prevent people from writing code?

There are a lot of things one can do to improve FOSS, including even harsh criticism. But saying "I don't want the code" isn't, sorry.

-- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

There is no "KDE team". Unless you're referring to the openSUSE KDE team here, and in this case you're doing a great disservice to the (*volounteers*, every one of them) who package the software *you* are using.

As far as there being a KDE team, this is right off the KDE website: "The KDE® Community is an international technology team" You are extremely out of touch with reality. I'm not doing a disservice; I'm doing a service. It's people like me that make FOSS better by reporting problems. I guess if you had it your way, you would have everybody be sheep and report how excellent everything is working and praise all the new bells and whistles which in actually are garbage.

This is FOSS, not a professional organization.

Thanks for the lecture.

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software, but the fact that *zero* people, or close to zero did it tells me something about how much the FOSS community knows about being good citizens.

That's not my problem. I, like many other people, have other things going on in my life and throughout my day. I wasn't aware that KDE 4.13 was going to have a shitty new indexing system that completely sucked, and is causing all types of people to get mad, not to mention that it's sucking their system resources dry. Maybe if I would have known about it I would have tested it, but the KDE website is poorly organized and it's hard to find anything on it. Is this the global push for worldwide Linux adoption on the desktop? It's not working very well.

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived. It makes me wonder at times why do I *bother* to give support on the KDE Community Forums.

Here's a word of advice: If you can't handle critisism (you obviously are an overly sensitive person), then it would probably wise to take a hike. When there's problems, i report them, and I report my experiences. And guess what -- I'm not changing, nor am I going to change the way that I communicate.

You could have spared a rant: there is a clear mention of the "baloo-file" message in the announcement we made regarding 4.13 availability in KDE:Current.

Again, you are out of touch with what the problem is, what the users are saying, and this just shows exactly why Baloo is there in the first place. Have a nice day. On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 5:36 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

In data lunedì 28 aprile 2014 05:22:25, Sam M ha scritto:

Hello,

...

I think Anton means that he want to uninstall Baloo compeltely from his system, just like I do. He doesn't want any Baloo code on his

If you remove baloo-file, it won't touch your hard disk at all.

...

everybody's throat just because the KDE team thinks that this is way people should be using their computers.

There is no "KDE team". Unless you're referring to the openSUSE KDE team here, and in this case you're doing a great disservice to the (*volounteers*, every one of them) who package the software *you* are using.

And even in the KDE community at large, of which I am part of, there is no such team. This is FOSS, not a professional organization.

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software, but the fact that *zero* people, or close to zero did it tells me something about how much the FOSS community knows about being good citizens.

Since the new search system was introduced, in the first beta, I wrote to the mailing list asking the brave to test it to ensure we had a smooth experience later on. Aside the openSUSE KDE team and a few others, no one did. How can you fix something that you do *not* know it's broken?

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived. It makes me wonder at times why do I *bother* to give support on the KDE Community Forums.

...

was surprised that the GUI offers barely any options, and that it's opt-out and not opt-in.

Again, this GUI change was in since beta 1.

...

package be split. I want this, because I want to uninstall it. And if

You could have spared a rant: there is a clear mention of the "baloo-file" message in the announcement we made regarding 4.13 availability in KDE:Current.

-- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/28/2014 08:36 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

How can you fix something that you do *not* know it's broken?

The impression I get is one of "Broken By Design". There was a fundamental design change, that from "only index what I tell you" to "index everything except what you tell not to". I now get the impression that this results from us having to trust the developers who "know better" what we want. I don't recall being asked. Theres there 'Broken by design" which has lost me all my knotes. -- Bullet proof vest vendors do not need to demonstrate that naked people are vulnerable to gunfire. Similarly, a security consultant does not need to demonstrate an actual vulnerability in order to claim there is a valid risk. The lack of a live exploit does not mean there is no risk. -- Crispin Cowan, 23 Aug 2002 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software,

I test things with KDE on an isolated test machine.... when I can. I don't test every release. The 4.12.99 release did land on my test machine for a day or two, but... I never noticed Baloo. I had not realized that the former search... Nepomuk... was being 100% replaced now that it was... you know, working OK. The info about Baloo may have been posted on the ML, but it's clear most of us missed it. Lots of excuses... persona life, too many emails etc etc.

Since the new search system was introduced, in the first beta, I wrote to the mailing list asking the brave to test it to ensure we had a smooth experience later on. Aside the openSUSE KDE team and a few others, no one did. How can you fix something that you do *not* know it's broken?

Why was Nepomuk removed? Was was Baloo invented? I still haven't quite figured this one out. If I test something, I test it on an isolated system on my LAN. It doesn't touch my NAS. It doesn't touch my internal data storage on my main machine. So... any indexing Baloo did was on an empty home, with no additional external drive mounts. Basically.. nothing to index. That said... when Baloo was enabled on my primary system, it indexed a 2TB NAS, a 1 TB mechanical and a 250GB SSD in just a few minutes. That's photos, videos, documents, VM images etc etc. The only I/O hit I had was to the NAS, but that's not unreasonable given the network speed and the hopelessly slow NAS I've got. Hardware is an AMD Quad core (965), 16GB RAM on a Gigabye MB. On my particular setup, there was next to zero I/O impact. Why would that be the case on one install, but the next just falls over flat?

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived.

On that point... one.. just one single addition to Baloo would have alleviated 99% of the kerfuffle (or.. is it hullabaloo?). A simple on/off toggle that set the true/false option in the baloorc file would have been all that was necessary here. The people who don't want indexing could have simply went click and it would have not been an issue. Or better yet... make it an opt-in with a first start popup that says hey, cool new feature can be enabled here. C. -- openSUSE 13.1 x86_64, KDE 4.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 April 2014 09:21:45 Anton Aylward wrote:

That's about it. Removing baloo-file doesn't remove

baloo-core

This package provides the main baloo libraries. There are no executables in there nor are does it do any harm if it remains.

baloo-kioslaves This one you can remove as that it only provides the kio slaves for baloosearch, tagging and the dolphin timeline stuff. Without this package it is no longer possible to rate or create tags for any file. It does not index anything, however this provides the interface to the extended attributes. baloo-tools This is just the tools and the krunner for searching with baloo and can be easily removed.

and more

But it stops completely the file indexing from happening. The same goes for removing baloo-pim which removed the baloo akonadi agent and will stop the indexing of emails.

The real problem is that the specific search engine is HARD CODED into various other applications and I have no choice about it.

Then I am afraid that you have to write your own desktop system to make sure that it only uses what you want it to. There are a lot more libraries, etc installed on each system that are required by the desktop environment of our choice. Maybe I want to remove Qt, because I don't need it. But Qt is HARD CODED in KDE without any choice. And there are a lot more of these HARD CODED dependencies.

* I can choose to use Kmail or I can specify some other mailer * I can choose the file manager I want from among the KDE options OR chose something else, from Gnome for example * I can chose which application to use for an IM * I can choose what to use as a terminal emulator * I can chose what web browser to use * I can chose what windows manager to use

But will these choices also remove EVERYTHING that is related to the thing that you do not want to have ? As you indicated you can choose which web browser to use. You can choose to not use Konqueror and use FireFox, Rekonq, Chrome, Chromium, etc. But you can't delete libkonq (which is part of konqueror) as part of KDE have a HARD CODED dependency on this library.

But I can't chose what indexer to use.

Yes you can. Removing baloo-file and baloo-pim will remove the active indexing programs and baloo will stop to work. Nothing will be indexed, nor any activity will be done with baloo. Exactly the same way as that you can remove konqueror, but you can't remove libkonq.

Perhaps I think the one from Gnome is more to my linking. I'm stuck,

You are not stuck. As indicated you can completely disable baloo by removing 4 packages and baloo will no longer bother you. If you want to go further than this, then I guess you have to start building KDE by yourself from the source code so that you can omit whatever you do not want to have. We are building here packages that are used by a lot of people with all different requirements. This would mean that we have additional library requirements that are pulled in during the build phase of KDE. This delivers a KDE environment with a big amount of functionality that can be utilised depending on additional packages that are being installed by the user. But particular libraries are being pulled in regardless of the choice of the user. However the libraries on itself do not perform any activity. It is just there waiting for a program that activates it. And this is exactly the same state that you can achieve by removing the 4 indicated baloo packages.

Please understand the difference.

Well, I hope that you understand that there is a difference between HARD CODED and HARD CODED. As stated above KDE pulls in a lot of libraries to satisfy HARD CODED functionality. However this functionality is not activated until other programs are being installed that can utilise that functionality. And this is not different from Baloo. This does not mean that I do not agree with you regarding the enable/disable functionality in systemsettings and if you really followed the discussions then you know that there are a lot more people that think that way. However we can not always have it our way unless we decide to act and contribute this functionality. Raymond -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/28/2014 09:50 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

On Monday 28 April 2014 09:21:45 Anton Aylward wrote:

...

The real problem is that the specific search engine is HARD CODED into various other applications and I have no choice about it.

Then I am afraid that you have to write your own desktop system to make sure that it only uses what you want it to.

Now you seem to be trying to make this into a personal issue rather than addressing technical merits and shortcoming and design preferences.

There are a lot more libraries, etc installed on each system that are required by the desktop environment of our choice. Maybe I want to remove Qt, because I don't need it. But Qt is HARD CODED in KDE without any choice. And there are a lot more of these HARD CODED dependencies.

As I said, you are being ridiculous. Its not an analogous situation as you well know. I do on to give some examples of how systemsettings makes it clear that some utilities KDE uses which are external programs are optional, we can chose, for example, to use Evolution or Thunderbird instead of Kmail. I try to bring to the attention of readers that these things are not HARD CODED into KDE. Neither are they UI infrastructure libraries like Qt.

...

But I can't chose what indexer to use.

Yes you can. Removing baloo-file and baloo-pim will remove the active indexing programs and baloo will stop to work. Nothing will be indexed, nor any activity will be done with baloo. Exactly the same way as that you can remove konqueror, but you can't remove libkonq.

No, its not analagous. Systemsettings lets me chose which file manager I want. If I want to use Thunar I can. Its not about what I have to delete in order to disable. And I can use so other external program. While I can fiddle with the rc file to disable baloo (as opposed to disabling it in systemsettings) I can, for example, write a nifty one in Perl and use the options in systemsetting to use that external program instead (or the one offered by Gnome whatever that is). I can't tell kmail to use the indexing available via Dovecot or some other external program. Its HARD CODED and its all or nothing. I can't tell dolphin/konqueror to use one indexer and kmail another, no matter how good the indexer in Dovecot is, not matter how well integrated that indexer is with the mail store and how much better suited it is that that very specific task than a general purpose file indexer. In fact its running on a remote machine, my mail hub, so the "desktop indexer" can't see the files... All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility.

...

Perhaps I think the one from Gnome is more to my linking. I'm stuck,

You are not stuck. As indicated you can completely disable baloo by removing 4 packages and baloo will no longer bother you. If you want to go further than this, then I guess you have to start building KDE by yourself from the source code so that you can omit whatever you do not want to have.

You are so missing the point. In fact you are missing very many points. There are dozens of editors I can select as my editor of choice using systemsettings. Similarly there are many other external program options I can select there since they are not hard coded into KDE. But when it comes to indexing you are telling me I can either use baloo or nothing. Superficially baloo is an external program (otherwise one couldn't remove it) but the reality is the interface to it is hard coded into KDE applications.

We are building here packages that are used by a lot of people with all different requirements. This would mean that we have additional library requirements that are pulled in during the build phase of KDE. This delivers a KDE environment with a big amount of functionality that can be utilised depending on additional packages that are being installed by the user.

Obviously not. Read the above. What I describe, what is previously in KDE to address editor, mailer, file manager and others is determined at run time according to the settings in systemsettings and make use of additional packages. This is not the case with the indexer. It is baloo or nothing.

...

Please understand the difference.

Well, I hope that you understand that there is a difference between HARD CODED and HARD CODED. As stated above KDE pulls in a lot of libraries to satisfy HARD CODED functionality. However this functionality is not activated until other programs are being installed that can utilise that functionality. And this is not different from Baloo.

Not so. The interface that invokes, for example, the web browser, can invoke any web browser: Konqueror, firefox, opera, Chrome ... The interface that invokes baloo invokes baloo, if it find it. It can't invoke anything else. Its not a configuration option. There is an analogy here with networking. We use symbolic names and DNS to map those names to whatever IP address is registered. We don't hard code IP addresses into programmes. What you've done is hard coded the address and what you are saying is that we can chose not to have the site present. This is not consistent with the way other parts of KDE work. -- The state can't give you free speech, and the state can't take it away. You're born with it, like your eyes, like your ears. Freedom is something you assume, then you wait for someone to try to take it away. The degree to which you resist is the degree to which you are free... --Utah Phillips -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 of April 2014 10:37:44 Anton Aylward wrote: ...

All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility. Indeed. And also creates a maintenance nightmare.

You are so missing the point. In fact you are missing very many points.

There are dozens of editors I can select as my editor of choice using systemsettings. Similarly there are many other external program options I can select there since they are not hard coded into KDE.

But when it comes to indexing you are telling me I can either use baloo or nothing. Superficially baloo is an external program (otherwise one couldn't remove it) but the reality is the interface to it is hard coded into KDE applications. Since you're already pulling the GNOME comparison, situation is not different there. You'll either use Tracker, or nothing. And is not different how it was <= 4.12 and Nepomuk.

This is not consistent with the way other parts of KDE work. You'll find also that for dealing with SVG plasma theme's, you can't escape QtSvg. For using KMail, you cannot not use akonadi. With using KWin, you'll need to have libGL library installed. etc. So, i do not see a difference, except that ranting is pointed towards baloo, which as mentioned, you can just remove, and be done with it.

Cheers, Hrvoje

On Monday 28 of April 2014 18:09:12 šumski wrote:

.. so there where *a lot* off opportunities to test and read how Baloo, and rest of 4.13 behave. Oh, almost forgot. It is part of our development release for more than a month.

Cheers, Hrvoje

On 04/28/2014 11:56 AM, šumski wrote:

On Monday 28 of April 2014 10:37:44 Anton Aylward wrote: ...

...

...

All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility. Indeed. And also creates a maintenance nightmare.

If it does then there is something very wrong with the coding. The wrappers around what amounts to a "system" (3) call are all well documented. In addition, the code already exists in KDE to do that with those other external programs I mentioned. Are you saying that the KDE coders are so inept that they had to code each of those instances separately? That they never factored the code to a common routine? -- Everything comes to him who hustles while he waits. Thomas A. Edison -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 of April 2014 12:32:50 Anton Aylward wrote:

The wrappers around what amounts to a "system" (3) call are all well documented. In addition, the code already exists in KDE to do that with those other external programs I mentioned.

Are you saying that the KDE coders are so inept that they had to code each of those instances separately? That they never factored the code to a common routine?

Sorry, i fail to grasp what you said above has anything to do with library choices. What instances? You can off course use any image viewer on Plasma Workspace, but only with Gwenview e.g. you can see images embedded in Konqueror. Also, you can use whatever browser you like, but only with those that use KDELibs, you'll have integrated download Plasma progress bar, just to name a few examples. Finally, you can not use mentioned image viewer, or browser, you can remove them, but the libs will be there. Same goes with Baloo. Difference - one of these hit the soft spot or something. Cheers, Hrvoje

On 04/28/2014 12:45 PM, šumski wrote:

On Monday 28 of April 2014 12:32:50 Anton Aylward wrote:

...

The wrappers around what amounts to a "system" (3) call are all well documented. In addition, the code already exists in KDE to do that with those other external programs I mentioned.

Are you saying that the KDE coders are so inept that they had to code each of those instances separately? That they never factored the code to a common routine?

Sorry, i fail to grasp what you said above has anything to do with library choices. What instances?

You seem terribly hung up on libraries, as if that's the only way to implement anything. I'm sure most people following this have by now looked at systemsettings -> Default Applications and seen that it is possible in other contexts to chose what external program to use. They see that these choices are made at run time and not at compile time, and that they are under the selection of the user, not hard coded by the developers.

Also, you can use whatever browser you like, but only with those that use KDELibs,

Pardon me. I use firefox as my browser. Or do you mean file manager? Once again the systemsetting interface lets me select something other than Konqueror or Gwenview. You seem terribly hung up on libraries as the only way and in doing so are missing the point. All those other options, email, file manager, browser, terminal emulator, let me chose any one I want, regardless of what libraries KDE may have hardwired in or what external libraries those external programs may require. If I want to download an experimental one or write one of my own )perhaps in Perl or Ruby), I can. As for the windowing side, that's an option too; there are some interesting things with the E17 world :-) -- Call 226682779489712859637199678587902423107 for a good prime! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/28/2014 01:01 PM, šumski wrote:

...

As I've said before, many of these options are selectable in systemsettings -> Default Applications. Yes. Many, not every single one.

There are many other indexing applications out there and there are the Perl and Ruby tookits that are built around things like Plucine. Making the indexing tool one of them should be an option.

...

In fact so much of the rest of KDE (and Linux in general) is about the setting of run-time options that decouple away from compile-in choices.

Well yes, and i am again repeating the same sentence: you can remove baloo-file and be done with it. Or disable it via config key/placing $HOME as blacklisted location. As with 4.13, and in the past, and also with other DE's, wrt metadata/searching, there is one or none. I am sure KDE devs would welcome suggestions, and especially code how to do it differently.

What you are saying is that "if it isn't there it can't run" Big deal. All or nothing. The other stuff John has discussed, the change that now needs positive intervention by the user to disable whereas before disabled was the default. I doubt very much that the developers are incapable or need an old Perl/Ruby hack like me to point them to code fragments that already exist in the KDE suite. As I keep saying, there are already examples in systemsettings and already exmples of how to invoke an external application that has been set in systemsettings. -- When languishing for solutions, don't ask "Have I got the correct answer?" The correct question is "Have I got the correct question?" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

Il 28/04/2014 17:56, šumski ha scritto:

On Monday 28 of April 2014 10:37:44 Anton Aylward wrote: ...

...

All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility. Indeed. And also creates a maintenance nightmare.

Why ? I think that only basic widely used features should be hardcoded, everything else should be a runtime dep, maybe plugin based. Daniele. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 April 2014 07:01:47 Anton Aylward wrote:

On 04/28/2014 03:53 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

...

On Sunday 27 April 2014 07:51:27 stakanov@freenet.de wrote:

...

New search machine: is there any way to see it's settings or is it thought to be all automagical.

The only settings that exist for Baloo is through the systemsettings (Configure Desktop) and then Desktop Search. However as indicated, the only thing that can be set here are the folders that are to be excluded from the indexing.

...

Import function of notes: looses all the notes and imported nothing. Not a big issue for me as they where "loosable" but still, who uses it and does not find his notes afterwards.....

This was just fixed upstream and with the next update from KDE:Current, the patch would become available which fixes this issue.

Having just lost all my knotes, which I use quite a lot, and having no way to import then back from my archives, and having a new and undocumented config which, it appears, still doesn't let me override the export format!!!, I am pretty annoyed.

The lost data, is what really annoys me. New features are meaningless in the face of lost data.

Yes. That is why stuff needs to be tested at RC stage. I did, and didn't find this problem. So did many other people, and not find the problem. At some point, reality is that not everything can be fixed, especially if it isn't found.

This phase of upgrade seems to be displaying what I think of as a 'over-maturity' on the part of the KDE team, gratuitous featureism.

The shift with baloo from "index only what I say" to "index everything except what I say" seems nasty minded and out of touch with users.

It's just an UI change meant to make things simpler. Before, your home was indexed by default, it is now. You can disable that - just like before.

Breaking some thing as essential as kmail is another example.

You're talking like the developers kept this bug in on purpose - they didn't. And if you or somebody else would've tested this and found this issue they would have fixed it before. Don't blame the KMail developers for this, it is unfair.

But though all this is the obsession with indexing. The code for this is hard coded into so many components. I think that is very wrong-minded and backward.

KMail has had an index since the beginning of time, just like every other mail client. That they used an external tool to do it makes no difference. There is no obsession here, there is just plain logic - what mail client does not allow you to search your emails?

I'm not OCD but I don't need this search; I organise my files sensibly, isn't that what a hierarchical file system and long names is for? Have these guys never heard of the term 'taxonomy'?

Then disable it. Meanwhile, the majority of computer users DOES use search (Mac, Windows, they have this, too, so does GNOME, all on by default), so it is totally logical that it is enabled by default. It is 2014, not 1990 anymore.

part of the attraction of the old knotes was that I could arrange my notes in a heairarchy. Have we now lost that? The help fcility is more useless than normal and seems to think that we deal in just one note at a time. More 'out of touch with users'.

Ok, sorry if that functionality is lost somehow due to the rewrite - that's due to a lack of resources which leads to a choice: either drop Knotes completely or rewrite it so that it becomes maintainable. They choose the latter, which led to a loss of some features. You can remove Knotes, then you have the alternative. Or keep older versions running. Please understand that there are reasons behind choices that are made and that the KDE developers try to make the best choices possible. The fact that you don't like the outcome doesn't mean a better outcome would have been realistically possible, they might just have had to choose between two bad options. As is the case with Knote. Or they made the most sensible choice, which just happens to not work for a minority (including you) as is the case with Baloo. Sorry for that but that's reality.

Yes I know how to disable indexing. My point is that I don't want the code; it adds complexity and hence the potential for flaws to many situations where its not needed.

If you are going to make use of it then at least make it a plugin.

Fixing the problem of knotes incompatibility and getting my lost data back is all well and good, but why the **** did you produce code that cause it to be lost?

Regular readers will know that I've supported KDE4 though its infancy when many others decried it, and was great to have it mature, but now, well there are terms like "jumped the shark" or "nuked the refrigerator" which apply.

I'm afraid there is nobody to blame here. You're yelling at the world but directing that anger at the developers who simply did the best thing they could. Sorry that that is not good enough for you. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 April 2014 05:52:13 Sam M wrote:

...

There is no "KDE team". Unless you're referring to the openSUSE KDE team here, and in this case you're doing a great disservice to the (*volounteers*, every one of them) who package the software *you* are using.

As far as there being a KDE team, this is right off the KDE website: "The KDE® Community is an international technology team"

You are extremely out of touch with reality. I'm not doing a disservice; I'm doing a service. It's people like me that make FOSS better by reporting problems. I guess if you had it your way, you would have everybody be sheep and report how excellent everything is working and praise all the new bells and whistles which in actually are garbage.

You didn't report these problems in the RC, so - you're too late. You're complaining when it is already released. So, yeah, little thanks from us as you didn't bother to help test. That is fine, but then don't complain loudly that it breaks. File a bug and accept that because YOU didn't test, we didn't catch this issue.

...

This is FOSS, not a professional organization.

Thanks for the lecture.

...

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software, but the fact that *zero* people, or close to zero did it tells me something about how much the FOSS community knows about being good citizens. That's not my problem. I, like many other people, have other things going on in my life and throughout my day. I wasn't aware that KDE 4.13 was going to have a shitty new indexing system that completely sucked, and is causing all types of people to get mad, not to mention that it's sucking their system resources dry. Maybe if I would have known about it I would have tested it, but the KDE website is poorly organized and it's hard to find anything on it. Is this the global push for worldwide Linux adoption on the desktop? It's not working very well.

...

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived. It makes me wonder at times why do I *bother* to give support on the KDE Community Forums.

Here's a word of advice: If you can't handle critisism (you obviously are an overly sensitive person), then it would probably wise to take a hike. When there's problems, i report them, and I report my experiences. And guess what -- I'm not changing, nor am I going to change the way that I communicate.

...

You could have spared a rant: there is a clear mention of the "baloo-file" message in the announcement we made regarding 4.13 availability in KDE:Current.

Again, you are out of touch with what the problem is, what the users are saying, and this just shows exactly why Baloo is there in the first place. Have a nice day.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 5:36 AM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

In data lunedì 28 aprile 2014 05:22:25, Sam M ha scritto:

Hello,

...

I think Anton means that he want to uninstall Baloo compeltely from his system, just like I do. He doesn't want any Baloo code on his

If you remove baloo-file, it won't touch your hard disk at all.

...

everybody's throat just because the KDE team thinks that this is way people should be using their computers.

There is no "KDE team". Unless you're referring to the openSUSE KDE team here, and in this case you're doing a great disservice to the (*volounteers*, every one of them) who package the software *you* are using.

And even in the KDE community at large, of which I am part of, there is no such team. This is FOSS, not a professional organization.

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software, but the fact that *zero* people, or close to zero did it tells me something about how much the FOSS community knows about being good citizens.

Since the new search system was introduced, in the first beta, I wrote to the mailing list asking the brave to test it to ensure we had a smooth experience later on. Aside the openSUSE KDE team and a few others, no one did. How can you fix something that you do *not* know it's broken?

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived. It makes me wonder at times why do I *bother* to give support on the KDE Community Forums.

...

was surprised that the GUI offers barely any options, and that it's opt-out and not opt-in.

Again, this GUI change was in since beta 1.

...

package be split. I want this, because I want to uninstall it. And if

You could have spared a rant: there is a clear mention of the "baloo-file" message in the announcement we made regarding 4.13 availability in KDE:Current.

-- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 28 April 2014 15:26:54 C wrote:

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 2:36 PM, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

If Baloo was that toxic to everyone's computer, why people did not test it in advance? I can understand that not everyone is supposed to test beta software, I test things with KDE on an isolated test machine.... when I can. I don't test every release. The 4.12.99 release did land on my test machine for a day or two, but... I never noticed Baloo. I had not realized that the former search... Nepomuk... was being 100% replaced now that it was... you know, working OK.

The info about Baloo may have been posted on the ML, but it's clear most of us missed it. Lots of excuses... persona life, too many emails etc etc.

...

Since the new search system was introduced, in the first beta, I wrote to the mailing list asking the brave to test it to ensure we had a smooth experience later on. Aside the openSUSE KDE team and a few others, no one did. How can you fix something that you do *not* know it's broken?

Why was Nepomuk removed? Was was Baloo invented? I still haven't quite figured this one out.

If I test something, I test it on an isolated system on my LAN. It doesn't touch my NAS. It doesn't touch my internal data storage on my main machine. So... any indexing Baloo did was on an empty home, with no additional external drive mounts. Basically.. nothing to index.

That said... when Baloo was enabled on my primary system, it indexed a 2TB NAS, a 1 TB mechanical and a 250GB SSD in just a few minutes. That's photos, videos, documents, VM images etc etc. The only I/O hit I had was to the NAS, but that's not unreasonable given the network speed and the hopelessly slow NAS I've got. Hardware is an AMD Quad core (965), 16GB RAM on a Gigabye MB.

On my particular setup, there was next to zero I/O impact. Why would that be the case on one install, but the next just falls over flat?

...

It really makes me bitter to think that all that it was tried to do to ensure that reports could be caught in time to ensure a better user experience was all for *nothing*, and only later the complaints (and nothing else, almost) arrived.

On that point... one.. just one single addition to Baloo would have alleviated 99% of the kerfuffle (or.. is it hullabaloo?). A simple on/off toggle that set the true/false option in the baloorc file would have been all that was necessary here. The people who don't want indexing could have simply went click and it would have not been an issue. Or better yet... make it an opt-in with a first start popup that says hey, cool new feature can be enabled here.

It is very easy to switch off, although that could have been made more clear. I have emailed Vishesh so that he adds a hint to the UI. Thanks for the constructive feedback. If you want to know more about baloo, please read this article I wrote: http://dot.kde.org/2014/02/24/kdes-next-generation-semantic-search

C.

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On Monday 28 April 2014 19:58:27 Daniele wrote:

Il 28/04/2014 17:56, šumski ha scritto:

...

On Monday 28 of April 2014 10:37:44 Anton Aylward wrote: ...

...

All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility.

Indeed. And also creates a maintenance nightmare.

Why ? I think that only basic widely used features should be hardcoded, everything else should be a runtime dep, maybe plugin based.

Funny thing is: Baloo and Akonadi are exactly what you want: modular, super complex. That is why they have been so problematic for so long: it is very hard to get such a flexible, plugin based technology stable and performant. Making everything runtime/plugin based increases complexity. If you want it simple, fast and stable (but not flexible and everything hard coded) use GNOME. Or accept that it takes a bit longer and that it takes more testing (did you help test?) to get it right the way KDE is doing it.

Daniele.

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In data giovedì 01 maggio 2014 12:31:30, Vojtěch Zeisek ha scritto:

From my experience, its performance is much worst than of Nepomuk... And it seems I'm not the only one. There are some bug reports about that.

To be honest, we seem to live in dfferent planets. While I can't say the new search is perfect, I can say, since I was a heavy Nepomuk user (activities, tags, search PIM) that the difference is quite noticeable, even on a low end system (Atom dual core) I explicitly set up to be stressed. The Atom, with Nepomuk, would get straight *unusable* due to the combined CPU / IO usage. Now, while there are still issues wrt performance, I can safely say that the difference is like day and night there (less so on higher-tier machines). -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

On 05/01/2014 12:07 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Luca, ..... Yes, baloo generates quite a bit of I/O, they've added a patch to throttle

On Monday 28 April 2014 05:22:25 Sam M wrote: that now, I believe. It is actually a kernel issue (anything before 3.14 can not deal well with high I/O). This I/O problem shouldn't take long as Search indexes very fast - thousands of files per second.

In case it bumps into files which can't be indexed, it will try to determine what file is un-indexable and then disable indexing for that file for the future. Unfortunately, determining what file is hard to index takes a while - about 30 minutes of full cpu and IO at most, per broken file. This has been decreased for 3.14.1 to about 5 minutes at most and will stop/not happen on battery power.

Yes, Nepomuk never had this issue because it simply as so slow that it wouldn't eat the entire I/O of a system and I guess the devs use newer kernels that deal with it better so they didn't notice.

....yes, it seems exactly what baloo makes on my pc, no big %of cpu, max 12%, but the pc was very slow and sloggy ... glued.., it seems the same behaviour when I copy large files...., so may be it is a kernel issue not a baloo...:-) ...but I'm for a stop indexing button just becouse baloo is experimental.... and if it has a bug and I need my full pc I can disable it fastly..., and file a bug, the reenable to allow baloo to index for the night..:-) :-) :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 06:17 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

Go, code it. Stop telling others what to do without doing anything other than complain or even bother to find out the reasons behind the new search.

Ah, yes, all my years of supporting KDE from 4.0 count for naught when I make one criticism .... All this defence emoting on the part a few seems to miss out on a simple fact: we like KDE and we are disappointed when there's a FAIL. That's DISAPPOINTED. Disappointment isn't a reason for abandonment. KDE as a whole has many excellent and superior qualities. Quite honestly I'm sick of the 'coder elite' attitude. There's more to producing a good system than the code. Saying "if you don't like it [this one small part of the while] then go elsewhere, code your own Dm ... " is insulting. Scale this out and you'll expect each of us to build out own houses, cars, kitchen appliances, cell phones, computer chips ... Simply because we don't like some aspect of what has been produced. Its simply not scalable. -- Without friends no one would choose to live, though he had all other goods. -- Aristotle (384 BC - 322 BC), Nichomachean Ethics -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

I think Baloo should be able to be removed entirely. If I wanted a system where things couldn't be removed I'd be running Windows. I have my opinions which I've already expressed, and I'm not going to invest a whole lot of time reiterating myself and writing numerous emails. If the KDE developers want Baloo to not be able to be removed, then so be it. But I don't think that telling somebody to code their own desktop is a very good argument. It definitely _is_ a bit of an argument, but when you don't understand somebody's use case and you can't 100% put yourself in their brain and thinking patterns, AND understand what is and isn't important to them, then it's 100% impossible to fully understand the differentiation between something that may be important to somebody else and something that is only a run-of-the-mill topic which carries little importance to you. The whole idea is to make the system adaptable, and since Linux and other Unix-like systems are frequently used by people who have more knowledge on average about computers and how computers work, foisted "features" aren't always going to be popular. Is the Linux system going to become one big web of libraries that are all tied together, and nothing can be removed? Is the suggestion going to be to compile everything from source for those people who want minimalism, are purests, and that want free choice? As far as not testing, I had been using Windows more than Linux up until recently. Plus, I like XFCE in some regards, and it's not like KDE is the be-all and end-all in desktop environments. However, it's definitely a great system. Please at least offer a GUI switch for users to easily turn indexing off. How about a system notification that slides up and gives the user an option to begin indexing, postpone it, opt-out, or let them know what the hell is going on? I want to see KDE get more modular, more customizable, less bloated, etc. Not a one size fits all methodology, where the developers decide that it's either black or white, and if they choose white, then white is _the_ color, and that's the end of the discussion. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 06:07 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

That is just crazy. Don't blame the developers for not taking the usecase "I hate baloo" in mind when developing software.

Ah, a straw man if ever I zaw one. Who here "hates" baloo? Hands up? No, what we're objecting to is the CHANGE. It comes across as arrogance on the part of the developers, a 'we know what's best for you' attitude. We had nepomuk and then everything changed. All the defaults were reversed from 'only what I tell you" to "everything unless you tell me otherwise".

They take all use cases that are sane in mind: using search; NOT using search. Most people use search so it is enabled by default;

There is an assumption there which is unjustified. The search facilities came as part of the package, a part the can't be unplugged. I can unplug VIM and plug in EMACS. I can unplug Firefox and plug in Opera. I can't unplug Baloo and plug in a indexer I've developed. Its too tightly integrated. Yes I need an editor. If I'm "on the internet" I need an email client and web browser (at the minimum). I don't NEED a file indexer.

you can add your home folder to the 'ignore' list so it gets disabled automatically.

There's no 'automatically' about it. You have to do this explicitly. And you have to know to do it. And there isn't a user-friendly i/f as part of systemsettings to do this. So we geeks can do it, but the poor Joe Sixpack user who doesn't subscribe to this list, who is a simple "well I gave up on Windows because Microsoft isn't supporting XP any more an everyone said that Suse was the best Linux..." won't know how to disable it.

That there are people who just don't want the code on their computer for some 'purity' sake, well, though luck. There's no logical reason for that so nobody put in extra effort to support that.

Another straw man! Its not about Purity, no Dr Stranglove here. Its about foisting on us things we don't have options to deal with. As I keep saying, there are plenty of things in KDE that are configurable, where I have a choice of how I want some facilty to work. I can even choose not to install kmail and use systemsettings->DefaultApplications to use Thunderbird instead. But I can't choose not to install Baloo and use AntonsOwnIndexier instead. The code for the indexer that the KDE not-a-team have chose is hard-wired in to a variety of KDE components. Its not modular as are so many other aspects of KDE. Please leave off the ridiculous straw man examples. They don't do you any credit. -- HTML has followed nature's example... Bright, sometimes flashing, colors are a sign of indigestiblility. -- Rob Hartill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 06:20 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

On Monday 28 April 2014 19:58:27 Daniele wrote:

...

Il 28/04/2014 17:56, šumski ha scritto:

...

On Monday 28 of April 2014 10:37:44 Anton Aylward wrote: ...

...

All this is just an example of how determining options at run time rather than compile time gives more flexibility.

Indeed. And also creates a maintenance nightmare.

Why ? I think that only basic widely used features should be hardcoded, everything else should be a runtime dep, maybe plugin based.

Funny thing is: Baloo and Akonadi are exactly what you want: modular, super complex. That is why they have been so problematic for so long: it is very hard to get such a flexible, plugin based technology stable and performant.

Perhaps if what I wrote was what you were criticising things would be easier. Modular in the sense of 'lots of parts' is NOT what I'm talking about. Modular in the sense of being able to pull out any part and replace it with another that meets the same interface, including a part that is 'NULL'. Yes I realise that such an approach is 'old school' attitude toward development, straight out of Yourdon et all of the 1970s, but it led to reliable and easily testable code. Yourdon also talked of 'Big Bang" delivery, things that were not testable in modular form but only when complete, when fully built and integrated. It strikes me that the testing we're being asked to do is that latter case. As I've mentioned, I've moved to working in Perl and Ruby. Both of these make great use of the ability to code systems that can use plugins and the kind of modular approach I've talked about. Between that and what I see when I look under the hood at other products that use dynamic modules such a Thunderbird and Firefox, I dispute the assertions that this is complex, unstable and difficult to code and test. In the limiting case there is the 'fork/execlv' and pipe mechanism that is employed, with UNIX, and has been for many decades. I've pointed out a couple of times now that KDE makes use of this anyway: systemsettings -> Default Applications. There I can set the editor, browser and many other options for external applications. We have a similar thing with the MIME file type handler so that Dolphin can dispatch the appropriate application for a specific file, as determined at run time. Other parts of KDE development make use of the ability to run external programs and 'pipe back in' the results. There's BasKets, in which you can define arbitrary external editors for the text body, for editing images, sound and movies. The code is there. It's been done. Its been done in KDE an many other application. Its a well established technique that has been practised for decades. I'm not going to get into a pizzing match over whether a plugin written in a scripting language is more 'efficient' -- for whatever definition of 'efficient' we can argue about -- than coding in C. There are already many dynamic defined and dynamically bound such things already in use in KDE. We call them 'widgets' and I can see that some of them have been written in things like python and PHP! Their existence, the fact that they can be dynamically bound to the core of KDE rather than just an program in the KDE suite like BasKets, that they do external things, consult external sources, butild their own databases, and feed back the results into KDE and even display the results on the screen tells me something important. I tells me that what some people here are saying can't be done, is too difficult, is too complex, is not stable, is already being done. I hope this is simple one part of the development group (or whatever, since its not a team, with all the idea that 'team' implies such as 'teamwork' and 'pulling together'), not communicating with another, one part not seeing that another part has already solved the problem. Somewhere along the line Jos seems to have got the idea that I think indexing is a bad idea. I didn't say that. I'm far from happy about the way indexing has been done, been invented separately. For example, many of us read email using IMAP from a remote machine. All that local indexing can do is download the headers (or body) and index that. But all this is probably indexed at the remote site. Things like Dovecot are very good at indexing and update the index as soon as new email arrives. Dovecot can also do full text indexing. Downloading all that email so as to duplicate the indexing locally seems redundant. See http://wiki2.dovecot.org/Plugins/FTS/Lucene for example. The way indexing has been implemented in this version of KDE also precludes, or perhaps makes it very difficult, to deal with the "if you don't like it then build your own". Suppose I did want to build my own. Suppose I did dream up some spiffy new algorithm. If the indexing was built on a simple plugin or SYSTEM(3) approach, the kind we see elsewhere in the KDE suite, than I could unplug Baloo using systemsettings->DefaultApplciaitons and plugin my own. But that supposes the interface is all in one place. As far as I can tell its hard coded into many other applications, Konq/Dolphin, Gwenview and many others. Which gets back to what I was saying about 'modular'. Anything that is so insidious in other parts, in other applications, isn't well constrained, well bounded, easily identified module. So, how do I file a bug that says I can't, despite being told to write my own indexer in the way I can write my own browser, editor, widget, and plug it in to KDE. How do I write a bug report that says the design has gone in the wrong direction, that the assertions about it being too complex are demonstrably unjustified? The bug reporting system is bout coding bugs not architectural bugs. -- The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of meeting schedules is forgotten. --Kathleen Byle, Sandia National Laboratories -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

In data giovedì 01 maggio 2014 17:25:27, Daniele ha scritto:

No they are not, I cannot choose an alternative to akonadi/baloo without touching code...

Akonadi doesn't even start if you don't use an application that needs it. How is that a hindrance? ("Show events" in the clock plasmoid is disabled by default in openSUSE btw, which means that it won't start unless you tell it to) -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

On 05/01/2014 11:25 AM, Daniele wrote:

I have some hopes in lxqt.

Where might I find a version for suse? -- Any sufficiently advanced technology is undistinguishable from magic. - Arthur Clarke -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 May 2014 07:20:21 Sam M wrote:

I think Baloo should be able to be removed entirely. If I wanted a system where things couldn't be removed I'd be running Windows. I have my opinions which I've already expressed, and I'm not going to invest a whole lot of time reiterating myself and writing numerous emails. If the KDE developers want Baloo to not be able to be removed, then so be it. But I don't think that telling somebody to code their own desktop is a very good argument. It definitely _is_ a bit of an argument, but when you don't understand somebody's use case and you can't 100% put yourself in their brain and thinking patterns, AND understand what is and isn't important to them, then it's 100% impossible to fully understand the differentiation between something that may be important to somebody else and something that is only a run-of-the-mill topic which carries little importance to you. The whole idea is to make the system adaptable, and since Linux and other Unix-like systems are frequently used by people who have more knowledge on average about computers and how computers work, foisted "features" aren't always going to be popular. Is the Linux system going to become one big web of libraries that are all tied together, and nothing can be removed? Is the suggestion going to be to compile everything from source for those people who want minimalism, are purests, and that want free choice?

Oh, do you hear yourself talking? You HAVE free choice. Unlike on windows you can compile all the KDE software yourself and not include baloo. And you can adjust the code to take it out. There isn't a single reasonable reason to not have baloo installed so there is really no reason for either the openSUSE packagers or the KDE developers to introduce extra complexity and potential for bugs for this non-feature that you seem to want so desperately.

As far as not testing, I had been using Windows more than Linux up until recently. Plus, I like XFCE in some regards, and it's not like KDE is the be-all and end-all in desktop environments. However, it's definitely a great system. Please at least offer a GUI switch for users to easily turn indexing off. Done! Add your home folder in the gui in systemsettings and indexing will turn itself off automatically.

How about a system notification that slides up and gives the user an option to begin indexing, postpone it, opt-out, or let them know what the hell is going on?

Bother the average user more with complicated questions they have no clue about? That seems like a genuinely bad idea. We prefer to spend time on finding and fixing issues - considering all the complaining in this thread, I bet many others would agree with that.

I want to see KDE get more modular, more customizable, less bloated, etc. Not a one size fits all methodology, where the developers decide that it's either black or white, and if they choose white, then white is _the_ color, and that's the end of the discussion.

More customizable = more bloated. Flexibility adds complexity, as I wrote in another email. You can't have simple + complex at the same time. We are always looking for the right balance, and that is hard. If you want simple and inflexible, use GNOME Shell & software. If you want more complicated but still reasonable, use Plasma & KDE software. If you want over engineered and incomplete, try out enlightenment. You can have whatever you want ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 May 2014 18:13:37 Daniele wrote:

Il 01/05/2014 17:57, Anton Aylward ha scritto:

...

On 05/01/2014 11:25 AM, Daniele wrote:

...

I have some hopes in lxqt.

Where might I find a version for suse?

If I remember well there was a post about it in this Ml on in project.. Try search in obs but for sure is not ready. I tested a bit razor-qt non so bad but non ready for prime time.

Lxqt and razor-qt are now the same thing.

Daniele.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday, May 01, 2014 11:57:31 Anton Aylward wrote:

On 05/01/2014 11:25 AM, Daniele wrote:

...

I have some hopes in lxqt.

Where might I find a version for suse?

devel:cloverleaf:lxqt There is an installable pattern "LXDE-Qt"

On Thursday 01 May 2014 10:39:45 Anton Aylward wrote:

On 05/01/2014 06:07 AM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

That is just crazy. Don't blame the developers for not taking the usecase "I hate baloo" in mind when developing software.

Ah, a straw man if ever I zaw one.

Who here "hates" baloo? Hands up?

No, what we're objecting to is the CHANGE. It comes across as arrogance on the part of the developers, a 'we know what's best for you' attitude.

We had nepomuk and then everything changed. All the defaults were reversed from 'only what I tell you" to "everything unless you tell me otherwise".

...

They take all use cases that are sane in mind: using search; NOT using search. Most people use search so it is enabled by default;

There is an assumption there which is unjustified. The search facilities came as part of the package, a part the can't be unplugged.

I can unplug VIM and plug in EMACS. I can unplug Firefox and plug in Opera.

I can't unplug Baloo and plug in a indexer I've developed. Its too tightly integrated.

Yes I need an editor. If I'm "on the internet" I need an email client and web browser (at the minimum).

I don't NEED a file indexer.

...

you can add your home folder to the 'ignore' list so it gets disabled automatically.

There's no 'automatically' about it. You have to do this explicitly. And you have to know to do it. And there isn't a user-friendly i/f as part of systemsettings to do this. So we geeks can do it, but the poor Joe Sixpack user who doesn't subscribe to this list, who is a simple "well I gave up on Windows because Microsoft isn't supporting XP any more an everyone said that Suse was the best Linux..." won't know how to disable it.

...

That there are people who just don't want the code on their computer for some 'purity' sake, well, though luck. There's no logical reason for that so nobody put in extra effort to support that.

Another straw man! Its not about Purity, no Dr Stranglove here. Its about foisting on us things we don't have options to deal with. As I keep saying, there are plenty of things in KDE that are configurable, where I have a choice of how I want some facilty to work. I can even choose not to install kmail and use systemsettings->DefaultApplications to use Thunderbird instead.

But I can't choose not to install Baloo and use AntonsOwnIndexier instead. The code for the indexer that the KDE not-a-team have chose is hard-wired in to a variety of KDE components. Its not modular as are so many other aspects of KDE.

Please leave off the ridiculous straw man examples. They don't do you any credit.

Ok, let me reply one last time, also because I get that you'd expect this to be modular. Well, it could be. But that requires somebody to want it. Not somebody not doing anything, but somebody who actually builds another indexer. That is how things work in KDE: if there is a demonstrated need for something, patches are welcome. Why would the search developers build a plugin structure on top of what they already build for a potential other indexer that doesn't exist? That is just plain madness and a waste of time. IF somebody genuinely thinks he/she can build something better than baloo, prove it. You don't have to provide much. I doubt there's anything you can't just do in baloo, as it is very modular, but fair enough. Have at it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 01:14 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

More customizable = more bloated. Flexibility adds complexity,

That too, is a design decision. Like security, adding flexibility and the ability to customize AFTERWARDS is going to be a 'bag on the side' that bloats things and makes them inefficient and difficult to maintain. Nothing new in that. However, as many people have demonstrated, building in security or the flexibility at the beginning avoid such inefficiencies and has often lead to superior products. The popularity of things like Perl, RubyonRails and the Firefox browser are examples of that.

If you want over engineered and incomplete, try out enlightenment.

My take on E is obviously differnt from yours. I see it as a minimalist setup waiting for people to develop more plugins. What make the Mozilla suite popular, what makes KDE popular, is that they have a huge library of plugins. Yes, KDE uses plugins. They are called widgets and they do all you say that can't be done. -- Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him. --J. R. R. Tolkien (as Haldir the elf), _The Fellowship of the Ring_ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 01:26 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

it's just that usually we don't waste time creating 3 versions of the same thing.

No, but UNIX/Linux is littered with many variations on the same thing, people's preferences, experiments and variations. There are many variations of the same theme in widgets available for KDE. Then we get to editors, browsers, databases ... Waste of time? Many thousands of developers don't think so and many millions of users are glad of it. -- Warning: Klein Bottle. No user-serviceable parts inside. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On 05/01/2014 01:26 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

Creating a plugin structure always adds complexity and requires you to abstract and often simplify functionality. Claiming that it doesn't because it has been done by others is kind'a silly. Do you know how many paid developers work on Firefox?

Ah, another straw man argument. No, and its not relevant. The only thing that is relevant is how many came up with the way the plugin system works and I can count that on my thumbs. Sale with RubyonRails. Two guys. How many people have worked on other aspects of those products, on the plugins? Thousands. But that's not what I'm talking about. -- Latte is french for You paid too much for that coffee! -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 02 May 2014 03:19:21 Rodney Baker wrote:

On Thu, 1 May 2014 19:14:34 Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

[...] You HAVE free choice. Unlike on windows you can compile all the KDE software yourself and not include baloo. And you can adjust the code to take it out. Here we go again with the attitude. Not everyone who uses KDE and who doesn't want desktop search is a programmer. Some of us choose to use Linux/KDE precisely because it ISN'T Windows. If I wanted Windows, I'd USE Windows.

I'm not a programmer either but you seem to want programmer-level control over your computer. Well, either learn to program or understand that we're not paid, not by you nor anybody, to build things exactly as you want. We build things so that as many users as possible can benefit from it. That means that stuff that is relevant for 0.0001% of our users doesn't get done. I can't believe that that is hard to understand. You're being angry at me, but don't: it is the Universe doing this to you. Yell at the sky, it might make you feel better (and it certainly would make ME feel better, and certainly everybody else on this list).

...

There isn't a single reasonable reason to not have baloo installed so there You mean, "I can think of no reason that seems reasonable to me..."; there are PLENTY of reasons which are completely reasonable to those who hold those opinions.

Sure, some people believe they are Elvis and should be treated like such. Unfortunately for them everybody else just thinks they are nuts.

For example, if I was running KDE on a Raspberry Pi (which is not a ridiculous use case and it is - or was - entirely possible) then I definitely would NOT want Baloo installed simply because of the limitations of the platform (e.g. running off an SD card) and the need for a minimal but functional installation.

Then you're running the wrong software on your Pi. Pick something else or pick something and make it fit. The fact that that requires skills beyond what you (or I) have is just reality. Again, yell at the sky, not at us. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 May 2014 14:15:04 Anton Aylward wrote:

On 05/01/2014 01:26 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

Insisting on removing something that is needed to, say, get information about files (something quite core to an application like dolphin, yes?) is, well, let's just say you don't know what you are talking about.

Actually I do. I've never needed the indexer. I prefer a good taxonomy. The file system and symlinks has always given me that :-) Again, find out stuff before you start talking. Dolphin uses baloo libraries to show file details. You can't have things like file size or any other information - it's a core part of Dolphin. It has nothing to do with the indexer, which you can disable as I've said many times. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 01 May 2014 14:06:53 Anton Aylward wrote:

On 05/01/2014 01:19 PM, Jos Poortvliet wrote:

...

I'd rather have one thing work well than 10 things that don't..

Its not an either/or situation. Stop pretending that Linux is that naive.

UNIX and Linus has always been about choices, about 'doing it your own way' about ripping out parts and experimenting with new ones.

Yes the whole point of experimenting is that sometimes you fail, and often you learn a lot from the failures.

Go write an alternative then. I described the process to you. Otherwise, stop claiming other people should drop everything they are working on and do lots of things for you because somehow, somewhere, it might make something better. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

In data venerdì 02 maggio 2014 03:19:21, Rodney Baker ha scritto:

Here we go again with the attitude. Not everyone who uses KDE and who doesn't want desktop search is a programmer. Some of us choose to use

Most of the people in the openSUSE Community KDE teams aren't programmers, FYI. While I know how to code, I certainly can't call myself one. ;) -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

In data giovedì 01 maggio 2014 22:17:15, Raymond Wooninck ha scritto:

Panel that replaces the current baloo one. There we see more functionality coming back similar to what could be defined with the previous nepomuk one. Also it contains the famous enable/disable switch.

Not only that, it has the "placet" of the maintainer, who even offered to do code reviews on it. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79

On Thursday 01 May 2014 23:44:28 Felix Miata wrote:

...

As indicate the package is currently in the KDE:Unstable:Extra repository as that we do not have an official release for it and it is still being developed further. But people are more than welcome to grab it, install it and try it. Which package is "it"? Hi Felix,

This was in my message as well. Please read again this little part:

Hi Vojtěch, the current state of the KCM can be found in KDE:Unstable:Extra repository, under baloo_kcm name. I'd advise just grabbing the package instead of adding the whole repo

So the package name is baloo_kcm and it is available from the KDE:Unstable:Extra repository

Does this development have an associated upstream bug to read and/or comment in? I'm having no luck finding one, and would like to mention issues I see in http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/baloo413-120.png if they haven't already been addressed.

As indicated a volunteer is working on this and it is not part of the official KDE SC stuff. That is the reason why it is in KDE:Unstable:Extra. However it addresses a lot of the issues indicated in the threads with regards to the configuration of baloo. So I don't expect there to be any bug, nor a possibility to report bugs on. At least not yet. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org

sorry to raymond roonick to replied only to him but ctrl+R on my thunderbird replied to him and not to list On 05/02/2014 07:43 AM, Raymond Wooninck wrote:

On Thursday 01 May 2014 23:44:28 Felix Miata wrote:

...

...

As indicate the package is currently in the KDE:Unstable:Extra repository as that we do not have an official release for it and it is still being developed further. But people are more than welcome to grab it, install it and try it. Which package is "it"? Hi Felix,

This was in my message as well. Please read again this little part:

...

Hi Vojtěch, the current state of the KCM can be found in KDE:Unstable:Extra repository, under baloo_kcm name. I'd advise just grabbing the package instead of adding the whole repo

So the package name is baloo_kcm and it is available from the KDE:Unstable:Extra repository

...

Does this development have an associated upstream bug to read and/or comment in? I'm having no luck finding one, and would like to mention issues I see in http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/baloo413-120.png if they haven't already been addressed.

As indicated a volunteer is working on this and it is not part of the official KDE SC stuff. That is the reason why it is in KDE:Unstable:Extra. However it addresses a lot of the issues indicated in the threads with regards to the configuration of baloo. So I don't expect there to be any bug, nor a possibility to report bugs on. At least not yet.

installed, veeeeery good...:-) :-) :-) :-) it seems to works..:-) :-) :-) many thanx to everybody for this...:-) :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-kde+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-kde+owner@opensuse.org