Feature changed by: Thomas Thym (ungethym) Feature #306967, revision 11 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? + Discussion: + #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) + +1 + Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE + distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects + can earn great benefits. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: dd11 ss (jal111) Feature #306967, revision 16 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 + #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) + yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (RGBsuse) Feature #306967, revision 21 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) + #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) + My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only + kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea + of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about + openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a + flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most + easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even + if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of + using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Alan Prescott (fudokai) Feature #306967, revision 25 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)   Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. + #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) + +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move + to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Ave Fenix (arxus) Feature #306967, revision 31 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)   Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! + #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) + +1!! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: MH Werner (fabrikat) Feature #306967, revision 35 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)   Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. + #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) + +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) Feature #306967, revision 37 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)   Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. + #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) + I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! + +1! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Michael Löffler (michl19) Feature #306967, revision 40 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description:   I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default.   What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =)   Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . + #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) + just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last + openSUSE user survey at + http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf + question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE + 68,3% + question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? + Yes 6,1% + So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have + that many newbies. +   -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: José Oramas (jaom7) Feature #306967, revision 42 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. + #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) + +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost + openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some + distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. + The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better + way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better + KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with + the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier + for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on + that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental + versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE + for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a + kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) Feature #306967, revision 45 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. + #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) + +1 + The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch + over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for + me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of + the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase + support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit + 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became + the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from + Kubuntu and give it a shot. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) Feature #306967, revision 47 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. + #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to + #19) + It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us + * Focus + * Users + * Developers + (quoting the original request) -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) Feature #306967, revision 50 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? + #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) + Great +1 KDE by Default!!! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) Feature #306967, revision 55 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! + #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) + Great +1 KDE rocks !! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Todd R (TheBlackCat) Feature #306967, revision 58 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! + #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) + I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one + day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is + proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install + DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe + another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact + it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and + a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with + Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a + desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 + and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if + they don't want KDE and can pick something else. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Stefan Kunze (KunzeS) Feature #306967, revision 61 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. + #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) + Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) + and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially + Germany) in my Experience.  + Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) +   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Stijn Tas (stijntas) Feature #306967, revision 63 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html + #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) + +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be + proud of it and put it as default !!! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Karsten König (remur) Feature #306967, revision 65 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   + #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) + Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because + ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even + quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so + why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am + no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting + from me -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Stephen Kellat (skellat) Feature #306967, revision 68 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. + #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) +   + "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE + and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. + So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more + KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." + The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead + providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level + of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already + (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. + "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide + something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial + for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." + And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small + distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install + through a few apt commands. + "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice + distribution to develop on." + This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu + already covering that ground? + "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user + community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad + because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." + I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more + flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. +   -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Todd R (TheBlackCat) Feature #306967, revision 72 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. + #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) + "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" + You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think + the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important + to people. + "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do + selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about + GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has + anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." + If we want users to try both, we should install both by + default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. + And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just + the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official + canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and + community-supported distribution. + "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique + selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best + integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE + with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the + difference claimed in this point." + You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I + don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE + is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I + think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is + counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced + distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is + fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution + that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility + under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible + distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for + the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already + and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to + an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. + Just giving more information won't change that. + It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an + ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to + get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, + concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking + a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to + the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Robert Williams (Bob_Williams) Feature #306967, revision 75 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   + #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) + Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be + removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like + Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will + probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a + selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, + which from my POV should be KDE. + Bob -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) Feature #306967, revision 77 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. + #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) + Choice is king. + I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you + want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I + have a choice. + So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, + which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user + fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the + default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No + secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. + But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that + too is fine for me. + pvl -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Sergio Gabriel (Dahool) Feature #306967, revision 83 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! + #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) + -1 + There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There + is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) Feature #306967, revision 86 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. + #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) + +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) Feature #306967, revision 89 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. + #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) + +1 -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Ioan Vancea (IonutVan) Feature #306967, revision 92 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 + #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) + yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) Feature #306967, revision 96 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. + #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to + #33) + I agree with you entirely. + Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states + should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. + kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE + not to take sides. + 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The + sooner beginners start choosing, the better. + 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the + box. + 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for + all. + 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase + popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other + desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Alberto Passalacqua (GreenGeeko) Feature #306967, revision 99 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Unconfirmed Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE)   #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse.   #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48)   "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now.   #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. + #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to + #36) + It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken + more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make + any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that + KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it + from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default + should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision + in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would + throw years of work out of the window. +   + OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still + identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the + alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, + solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing + on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on + the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact + openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end + of the day. +   + Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio + button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the + choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? + Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal).   jdd   #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Dominik Heidler (dheidler) Feature #306967, revision 104 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? + - Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Dominik Heidler (dheidler) Feature #306967, revision 106 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. - - It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between + * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. - - Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide - something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial - for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  - - This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice + * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something + that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for + openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  + * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. - - This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user + * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) Feature #306967, revision 111 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. + #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) + -1 + I state myself as a KDE-fan but + possibility to make a choice == freedom + a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of + KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in + mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. + simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or + two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help + user  chose. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: jimbo bigcreed (Dimble_ThriceFoon) Feature #306967, revision 113 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. + #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) + [x] kde + [_] Gnome + [_] Other -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) Feature #306967, revision 116 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. + #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) + -1 + GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get + similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) Feature #306967, revision 118 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   + #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) + +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much + influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When + it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry + of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. + Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the + direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) Feature #306967, revision 121 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. + #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) + -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our + contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only + net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. + Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very + little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise + common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push + from harming our distro. + if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do + it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). + People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent + their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their + time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we + have here. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) Feature #306967, revision 123 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. + #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) + -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME + !!! -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) Feature #306967, revision 126 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! + #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) + I agree with Federico (#62). +   + Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with + our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for + openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real + gains for the "winner". +   + I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled + users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the + cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. +   + Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I + don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to + read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a + decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board + will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up + as a serious proposal. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Vincenzo Andretta (V_Andretta) Feature #306967, revision 130 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek + #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) + Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of + alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: + #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of + a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering + "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching + a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or + even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of + Linux? -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: skip paul (skippaul) Feature #306967, revision 132 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. + #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) + Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Glenn Doig (doiggl) Feature #306967, revision 135 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. + #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) + +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) Feature #306967, revision 137 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. + #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) + -1 + As a Gnome user, I vote against. + openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the + major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that + the only thing that matters. + If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this + project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't + want of it. + I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality + distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. + So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever + fanboys. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) Feature #306967, revision 139 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. + #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) + I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and + original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to + develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be + organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE + community. + #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) + I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and + original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to + develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could + be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde + community. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Arno Pähler (paehler) Feature #306967, revision 141 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! + #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) + I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 + years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to + Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 + became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately + switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, + who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, + I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the + openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few + KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a + desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it + reaches a state, where it is usable. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Richard Lennox (rlx01) Feature #306967, revision 146 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support.     + #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) + I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by + SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it + as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more + intuitive to migrants from other OSes. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Axel Braun (DocB) Feature #306967, revision 148 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default.   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default.   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62).   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner".   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer.   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias.   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine)   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole.   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated.   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support.     #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE + #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) + As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - + mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no + such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as + well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not + only because I use it since version 1.0. + Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the + standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate + it anyway. + +1 +   -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Michael Löffler (michl19) Feature #306967, revision 151 Title: KDE default - openSUSE-11.2: Evaluation + openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. -   GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. -   #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). -   Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". -   I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. -   Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. -   I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) -   Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. -   We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. -   [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. -   -   #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 -   #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Andreas Jaeger (a_jaeger) Feature #306967, revision 153 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? + Decision by Michl (see comment #85): + "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, + http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we + follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the + alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help + text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) Feature #306967, revision 155 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. + #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) + +1 for kde 3.5 + -0.5 for kde4 + Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 +   -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) Feature #306967, revision 157 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5   #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. + #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) + By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even + allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 + (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). + From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not + mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their + favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. + You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- + login should be disable for multi-selects). -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: jimbo bigcreed (Dimble_ThriceFoon) Feature #306967, revision 159 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5   #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). + #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) + +1 for opensuse. +   + looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) Feature #306967, revision 162 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Candidate Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5   #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse.   looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it.   + #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) + It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. + It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast + computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time + when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, + stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse + continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old + concepts. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Christian Quante (Chrischaan) Feature #306967, revision 165 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse. looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it. #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old concepts. + #94: Christian Quante (chrischaan) (2009-09-26 16:31:37) + A question of balance... +   + IMHO it's a nice idea to make KDE the "default" desktop. Most + distributions choose GNOME as their default desktop, so it's a nice + signal, that openSUSE turns back to KDE. +   + And keep in mind: more usage of a desktop results in more stability, + because of the feedback from users. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) Feature #306967, revision 167 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse. looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it. #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old concepts. #94: Christian Quante (chrischaan) (2009-09-26 16:31:37) A question of balance...   IMHO it's a nice idea to make KDE the "default" desktop. Most distributions choose GNOME as their default desktop, so it's a nice signal, that openSUSE turns back to KDE.   And keep in mind: more usage of a desktop results in more stability, because of the feedback from users. #95: Adam Williams (whitemice) (2009-10-02 16:38:11) Terrible idea;  GNOME is simpler and more elegant and more professional in appearance.  It is certainly better suited to new users than cluttered KDE. + #96: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-10-15 21:35:44) (reply to #95) + It's *too* simple for some. And, real professionals only need a console + anyway (a bunch of xterms atop of twm/icewm/whatever) ;-) -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) Feature #306967, revision 170 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse. looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it. #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old concepts. #94: Christian Quante (chrischaan) (2009-09-26 16:31:37) A question of balance...   IMHO it's a nice idea to make KDE the "default" desktop. Most distributions choose GNOME as their default desktop, so it's a nice signal, that openSUSE turns back to KDE.   And keep in mind: more usage of a desktop results in more stability, because of the feedback from users. #95: Adam Williams (whitemice) (2009-10-02 16:38:11) Terrible idea;  GNOME is simpler and more elegant and more professional in appearance.  It is certainly better suited to new users than cluttered KDE. #96: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-10-15 21:35:44) (reply to #95) It's *too* simple for some. And, real professionals only need a console anyway (a bunch of xterms atop of twm/icewm/whatever) ;-) #97: Stephan Hadan (stiebke2009) (2009-10-18 22:35:40) I can not agree. I think GNOME ist easier to understand and more professional in appearance.  + #98: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-10-19 09:17:54) (reply to #97) + Sorry guys, but that entry is marked as DONE so please stop spamming + it. +   + The conclusion simply is that whatever is used by the majority of the + users is marked as default. Which also means that as soon as Gnome is + used by the majority it will be used as default. +   + Now please be so kind and stop posting here some "I like it" or "That + suckz" posts cause it wont change anything but will just spam anyone + filed as "interested" in that feature with a mail. +   + Thanks a lot in advance. -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: W. Shawn Wilkerson (wshawn) Feature #306967, revision 173 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse. looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it. #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old concepts. #94: Christian Quante (chrischaan) (2009-09-26 16:31:37) A question of balance...   IMHO it's a nice idea to make KDE the "default" desktop. Most distributions choose GNOME as their default desktop, so it's a nice signal, that openSUSE turns back to KDE.   And keep in mind: more usage of a desktop results in more stability, because of the feedback from users. #95: Adam Williams (whitemice) (2009-10-02 16:38:11) Terrible idea;  GNOME is simpler and more elegant and more professional in appearance.  It is certainly better suited to new users than cluttered KDE. #96: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-10-15 21:35:44) (reply to #95) It's *too* simple for some. And, real professionals only need a console anyway (a bunch of xterms atop of twm/icewm/whatever) ;-) #97: Stephan Hadan (stiebke2009) (2009-10-18 22:35:40) I can not agree. I think GNOME ist easier to understand and more professional in appearance.  #98: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-10-19 09:17:54) (reply to #97) Sorry guys, but that entry is marked as DONE so please stop spamming it.   The conclusion simply is that whatever is used by the majority of the users is marked as default. Which also means that as soon as Gnome is used by the majority it will be used as default.   Now please be so kind and stop posting here some "I like it" or "That suckz" posts cause it wont change anything but will just spam anyone filed as "interested" in that feature with a mail.   Thanks a lot in advance. #99: Frederick Yeboah (kwaku) (2009-11-03 16:29:00) In my own view using GNOME as defualt is good. I have no deficulty working with any of the desktops. However, after working with KDE for a while I am tempted to say that GNOME is much more stable and easy to use + #100: W. Shawn Wilkerson (wshawn) (2009-11-13 13:04:44) + I prefer KDE, but over the years have been forced to use GNOME as I had + far to many issues with KDE crashing on mission critical applications + we run here, though I will be installing the 11.2 KDE for testing this + weekend. + But I do believe the "mareketing" of openSuse would benefit from + picking one and using it in the predominant number of aticles, press + releases, and images found around openSuse. + Providing choice is what Linux is based on, but I believe it would be + smarter to remove all references to the GUI except in "advanced" modes + and simply install KDE. This will minimalize the beginning stages of + support questions and the stress associated with new users having to + answer a bunch of question about many terms some of us take for + granted.  The learning curb is steep enough ( and I have nine degrees + in the computer industry) we should make this as simple (not thinking) + as possible.  An additional aide may be smolt automatically running + (without approval) as soon as a ping to openSuse.org comes back active, + followed by a link being place in Yast and Firefox (or other browser) + so people can directly link to their profile and send that as part of + the initial questions.  Additionally, the forums here may want to add + the ability to list up to five computers which simply list the smolt + uuid for the user to pick from in a drop down box. +   +   -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967

Feature changed by: Christian Jäger (eet) Feature #306967, revision 175 Title: KDE default openSUSE-11.2: Done Priority Requester: Important Requested by: Frank Karlitschek (frankkarlitschek) Description: I propose to make KDE the default desktop in openSUSE. * It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default. * Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution.  * This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on. * This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution.  openSUSE should, of course, also ship and support GNOME. So experienced users can choose. But new users should have KDE as default. What do you think? Decision by Michl (see comment #85): "As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enhance the desktop description in the help text." Discussion: #1: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-07-28 13:49:00) +1 Really great idea! I know many, many people searching for a good KDE distribution. If openSUSE can provide them a proper home both projects can earn great benefits. #2: Henrik Segesten (eldakkar) (2009-07-28 13:53:38) +1 #3: dd11 ss (jal111) (2009-07-28 13:58:50) yeah, it's time again for kde as default de! #4: Andreas Demmer (ademmer) (2009-07-28 14:05:56) KDE for teh win! :) #5: Ricardo Gabriel Berlasso (rgbsuse) (2009-07-28 14:15:23) My first Linux distro was SuSE 7.0 with kde 1. After that I used only kde and SuSE/openSUSE most of the time, BUT I don't agree with the idea of "kde as default desktop". Why? Simply. The greatest thing about openSUSE (I mean, after yast tool ;) ) is CHOICE: openSUSE is a flexible Linux system that allows users to tune everything in the most easy way. Setting a "default" is against that idea of "freedom". Even if I only use kde, and only recommend kde to new users, I'm proud of using a distro that permits anyone to think different from me. #6: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 14:28:36) Just toggling KDE as default isn't going to change alot, more important would be getting out the message openSUSE ships a kick-ass KDE distribution, provides clean built KDE repositories, provides great developer resources like the BuildService and has a vibrant KDE community. I don't know about openSUSE:Gnome though, maybe it's the same there too, so that'd be a reason to stick to the current scheme and not drive these people away and do we really want to make these guys use Ubuntu? I'd prefer to get these people use KDE =) Btw, KDE sure deserves a top place in the opensuse distribution, I fully agree here. #7: Alan Prescott (fudokai) (2009-07-28 14:33:04) +1 - I'd always assumed that the change to Gnome was part of the move to Novell as a US company and their NIH syndrome. #8: Angelo Compagnucci (angelocompagnucci) (2009-07-28 14:40:34) +1 !!! #9: Ave Fenix (arxus) (2009-07-28 14:53:38) +1!! #10: Aru Sahni (arusahni) (2009-07-28 15:01:00) +1000! All but one of the SuSE users I know use KDE, and it is known for shipping a really well-put-together version of the DE. #11: MH Werner (fabrikat) (2009-07-28 15:08:19) +1 #12: Chris Schlaeger (cschlaeger) (2009-07-28 15:39:27) While I value the option to install GNOME, I don't think choice of a particular desktop belongs into the default installation workflow. It just complicates the installation and confuses first-time Linux users. The distro should have a default desktop that reflects the majority of their user base. For SUSE this has always been KDE. Even 4 years of politics did not seem to have changed this much. Opt for the future and go after Linux users that want a modern desktop that can also visually compete with Windows7 and MacOS X. Go KDE4! And for the rest, have a nicely packaged GNOME in the package selections. #13: Baltasar Ortega (baltolkien) (2009-07-28 15:40:56) I'm agree with this! Others distros don't ask you about the deskop! +1! #14: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 15:47:16) +1  but there is already the possibilty to integrate this. In the Installation workflow you have the possibility for automatic Installation - you can make it choose KDE4 and if you switch the automatic configuration off and select advanced you can have the choice between GNOME and KDE4 . #15: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-07-28 16:01:40) just to add some more facts to the disscussion. According to our last openSUSE user survey at http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/e/ec/Survey_openSUSE110.pdf question 11: Which user interface do you mainly use? GNOME 26,9%, KDE 68,3% question 15: Is using openSUSE 11.0 your first experience with Linux? Yes 6,1% So GNOME users are not that few and at least currently we don't have that many newbies. #25: Sebastian Kügler (vizzzion) (2009-07-28 18:13:52) (reply to #15) Catch-22, if you give users a screen with two options they don't know, they might not get as far as filling in the survey as openSuse users. So here the number might actually be low *because* you have to make a choice without knowing or being able to guess the right option. That's increasing the barrier for newbies, and could explain the lower numbers. I personally think that not offering a default choice for a desktop is "chickening out" because the openSuse team not able to solve Novell- internal politics. The choice of the users seems pretty clear (68,3% vs 26,9%, that's huge), from the numbers you quote, and have been that clear historically as well. #28: Stefan Kunze (kunzes) (2009-07-28 18:38:45) (reply to #15) Hmm but the survey was in english (which is unfortunately necessary) and North America is decidely more gnomecentric then Europe (especially Germany) in my Experience.  Which I guess was one factor in making Gnome default (SLE) #16: José Oramas (jaom7) (2009-07-28 16:43:53) +1 The novell look and functionalties of KDE4 can significantly boost openSUSE; it is not new that KDE4 is not well suppported by some distros, being openSUSE one of the distros with ebetter KDE4 support. The default use KDE and an even better supporting KDE4 can be a better way to attract KDE users that are looking for a distro with even better KDE integration. In addition to this, it is known that, related with the GUI, it is easier for windows users to migrate to kde as is easier for Mac users to migrate to gnome, that's why openSUSE should focus on that bigger market, whichi is already being seduced by the experimental versions of plasma in KDE for windows. This fact, the existence of KDE for windows might help on a easier migration of users from windows to a kde-based distro which I think it should be openSUSE. #17: Andrew Wafaa (funkypenguin) (2009-07-28 16:57:24) -1 Frank, I'm sorry but I have to strongly disagree.  One of the beauties with openSUSE is that there is no bias given to any Desktop Environment.  That goes for GNOME, KDE & XFCE.  The choice is completely down to the user (as it should be). I am a big fan of KDE, and regularily participate with the openSUSE KDE community.  Heck I even built netbook images with KDE4 for the community.  I am also a fan of GNOME and XFCE. This is an old flamewar that should just be consigned to the sands of time.  We should not force a DE on the user, the DVD as it stands basically tells the user "Hey you need to choose, what would you like?"; it does not tell the user "OK unless you know what you are doing take this!".  There's a fine line between democratic and dictatorial  choice. #27: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:37:12) (reply to #17) openSUSE does discriminate against XFCE.  You have to click "other options" in the desktop environment selection screen before XFCE becomes visible.  The same is true of KDE 3.5.  Normally only Gnome and KDE 4 are visible.  I think what is being proposed is simply to put Gnome in the "other options" section alongside XKCE.  If you are happy with the treatment of XFCE then you should have nor problem with this suggestion, since Gnome will be treated no differently than XFCE. #18: Chris Vickery (chrisinajar) (2009-07-28 17:04:29) +1 The fact that more than twice as many people people choose to switch over the KDE than to stick with the current default alone is enough for me to think that changing the default is worth it. Follow the will of the user base. Changing over the default will inevitably increase support from the KDE developer and user community, which would benifit 68% of the users of openSUSE. If it were to change, and openSUSE became the cutting edge distro for KDE users, I know I would switch over from Kubuntu and give it a shot. #23: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-07-28 17:49:25) (reply to #18) You got something wrong here. Currently there is no default selection, you have to explicitely select what you want. #19: Joe Brockmeier (jbrockmeier) (2009-07-28 17:08:25) Other than making some kind of political statement, what would making KDE "the default" give us that having the KDE live CD doesn't? I'm confused here on what the actual upside would be. KDE users can choose KDE or the KDE Live CD, new users should not have (IMHO) a choice made for them. #20: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 17:22:20) (reply to #19) It's purely a political statement, but one that would give us * Focus * Users * Developers (quoting the original request) #21: Lubos Lunak (llunak) (2009-07-28 17:36:21) (reply to #20) Actually, in addition to that, users already do get choices made for them anyway - we select their default browser, default filesystem and pretty much default everything. This is the only page during installation, except for entering user data and passwords, where it's not enough to just click 'Next' and a choice must be made. Does actually any other distribution do that? #22: Felipe Ortiz (f3lip3) (2009-07-28 17:44:33) Great +1 KDE by Default!!! #24: Mortier benoit (benoitmortier) (2009-07-28 18:11:24) Great +1 KDE rocks !! #26: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 18:35:03) I personally agree with this.  I think it is pretty telling that in one day this idea has shot to the top 5 ideas.  I don't think anybody is proposing that Gnome be removed, or even be removed from the install DVD.  Users who like Gnome will still be able to pick it with maybe another click or two.  I would hardly call that "dictatorial", in fact it is the norm for Linux distros.  Currently users are given a logo and a name and expected to pick based on that.  For people unfamiliar with Linux that is not very helpful, they probably don't even know what a desktop environment is not to mention what the relative merits of KDE 4 and Gnome.  For people familiar with Linux, then they would know if they don't want KDE and can pick something else. #29: j h (echoes-) (2009-07-28 18:39:22) I think all the reasons mentioned here make perfect senese: http://blog.karlitschek.de/2009/07/lets-make-kde-default-in-opensuse.html #30: Stijn Tas (stijntas) (2009-07-28 18:40:21) +1 -> I only use OpenSuse because it has great KDE integration. Be proud of it and put it as default !!! #31: Marcel Mourguiart (marcel_cl) (2009-07-28 18:45:06) +0.5 I'm a KDE user and really dislike Gnome, but i'm not sure we should use KDE by default, why not Gnome? Ubuntu use Gnome, Fedora use Gnome, maybe at some point we should sacrifice our personal interests to get a higher benefit as a community, maybe we should think how to deliver a more consistent experience for users and thus a more unified concept of Linux and not just in a particular way to Opensuse. #32: Karsten König (remur) (2009-07-28 18:51:32) (reply to #31) Well you gave a good reason yourself whynot gnome as default, because ubuntu and fedora certainly got that piece covered, one of them even quite aggresively. And both gnome and kde are going to stay around, so why prefer the one that has fewer users on opensuse? Even though I am no big fan of setting KDE the default, GNOME sure would get a No voting from me #33: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 18:55:06) I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release, and I personally do not see any advantage in selecting by default a desktop environment with respect to another in the "default" installation. Let's address the points suggested by the proposer. 1) It is confusing for the user to choose between GNOME and KDE. I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers. 2) Unique Selling Point How can openSUSE provide a unique selling point by selecting a default? KDE is not a unique product, and selecting a default has nothing to do with providing an excellent implementation of KDE. What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point. You can sell openSUSE as both a good KDE-based and GNOME-based distribution, without any need to hide the choice to users, and without hiding GNOME. 3) This could attract more KDE developers How? Are KDE developers now blocked from the fact there is a selection between GNOME and KDE? 4) This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community The popularity of openSUSE among KDE users does not seem low, and in particular it does not seem to me it is affected by the lack of a default at installation time. As said at point 2, what differentiates openSUSE is the quality it was able to deliver in its KDE implementation. I would add another consideration based on Will's comment about "focus". How can a default setting bring more "focus" and users is something I do not understand. If bringing more focus to KDE means subtracting resources to GNOME, I disagree. GNOME used to be a second class citizen in openSUSE when the project was created, and became a popular desktop among openSUSE users, also protecting a part of the user share of openSUSE during the transition from KDE 3 to KDE 4. Relegating again to a secondary role does not seem a good choice to me, and it would sound quite unrespectful for the work done by the GNOME team during these years. On the other hand, if focus means attracting new resources from outside, again, it is not a default that makes the difference, it's the level of quality delivered, as always. #50: Carlos Robinson (robin_listas) (2009-07-28 22:39:31) (reply to #33) I agree with you entirely. Plus, I think openSUSE should remain desktop-agnostic, same as states should remain agnostic about the religious choices of their citizens. kde vs gnome wars are almost religious wars, so its better for openSUSE not to take sides. 1) Yes, Linux is about freedom, and freedom requires choices. The sooner beginners start choosing, the better. 2) It will sell better if any desktop the user choooes works out of the box. 3) Why? We can attract  kde, gnome, xfce, etc, developpers, by caring for all. 4) It is already popular. I don't see why punishing others would increase popularity. Perhaps it would degrade popularity with users of other desktops. #34: Stephen Kellat (skellat) (2009-07-28 19:01:48) "It is confusing for new Linux users if they have to decide between KDE and GNOME during the installation. New users don´t know either of them. So it is easier for beginners if there is a default. openSUSE has more KDE users than GNOME users so it is logical to make KDE the default." The best solution in that case is not forcing a default but instead providing explanatory material.  That only really applies at the level of DVD installation, though.  The LiveCDs are in two flavors already (no Xfce, alas) so providing defaults there is non-sensical. "Unique Selling Point. It is important for openSUSE to provide something that Ubuntu and Fedora don´t provide. It would be beneficial for openSUSE to be the only big KDE distribution." And how are Ubuntu and Kubuntu related?  Is Kubuntu a small distribution?  Any Ubuntu install can potentially be a Kubuntu install through a few apt commands. "This could attract more developers because KDE developers need a nice distribution to develop on." This sounds as if Kubuntu were being ignored in the mix.  Is Kubuntu already covering that ground? "This would increase the popularity of openSUSE in the KDE user community. The negative impact on the GNOME community is not that bad because Ubuntu is the most popular GNOME distribution." I shifted from Ubuntu to openSUSE because it was far more flexible.  While my preference is Xfce, GNOME is fine for me for now. #90: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:08:21) (reply to #34) see for my suggestion at Comment #89. #35: Lars Müller (lmuelle) (2009-07-28 19:14:24) If we like to get _new_ people on using Linux we have to preselect something.  A user new to Linux isn't able to decide between the available opportunities.  Therefore I strongly second to go with a preselected default desktop. To me Gnome or KDE isn't the main question.  The main question is: does a preconfigured default desktop provide an advantage to Linux newbies.  And here the answer to me is yes. 'cause it is one question less.  See also Chris' comment #12. From the numbers Michael showed in his comment #15 it looks like KDE is more popular on SUSE than Gnome.  And the difference is significant. Do we have numbers which differenciate between countires or regions? Is KDE more a european thing and Gnome more US amaerican? Might we combine the suggested default desktop with the answer to the language/ region the user has provided? Does the most important application, the web browser provide us a hint which is the right desktop?  I don't believe this answers the question raised with this feature request.  User need a web browser.  They don't care if it is Firefox, Konqueror, or Opera.  They want http content displayed.  Here it might be more important how easy users are able to display multi media content. Even if I raised questions please count my vote as +1 KDE.  And count +2 if we implement the decision over the default desktop in use in a smart and appropriate way. #36: Todd R (theblackcat) (2009-07-28 19:35:42) "I think this suggestion/request comes back at every release" You seem to present this as if it was a criticism of the idea.  I think the fact that it keeps coming up means that it is something important to people. "I disagree. The new user can actually select randomly, as it would do selecting between ubuntu and kubuntu. He does not know anything about GNOME and KDE, as a consequence both choices can be OK for him. He has anyway to try both to choose what he prefers." If we want users to try both, we should install both by default.  Forcing users to pick...forces users to pick. And the choice between kubuntu and ubuntu is not at all ambiguous, just the names alone make that clear enough. Ubuntu is the official canonical distribution, kubuntu is a separate, community-run and community-supported distribution. "What count is the second, not the default selection. The unique selling point has to be the set of functionalities, the best integration with the system and the higher quality provided by openSUSE with respect to others, not the default, which does not make all the difference claimed in this point." You state this is though it is a confirmed, unquestionable fact.  I don't agree it is.  For advanced Linux users, maybe,  But if openSUSE is trying to have a particular branding and image for the public, I think ambivalence on just one of dozens of possible choices is counterproductive.  If you want to present openSUSE as an advanced distribution with lots of choices during install, then that is fine.  If you want to present openSUSE as an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux but with lots of flexibility under the hood, that is fine too.  But we have now is an accessible distribution that is easy to install for new Linux users...except for the desktop environment, where we expect users to know Linux already and force them to make choices.  Those are two different approaches to an installation, and they are aimed at different sectors of the market. Just giving more information won't change that. It is the same thing with not picking KDE or Gnome, it is providing an ambivalent, mixed message to users that I think makes it difficult to get a clear picture of what openSUSE is.  I think people need a simple, concrete way to look at openSUSE.  In my opinion, that requires picking a desktop environment and that requires picking a single approach to the installation system, neither of which openSUSE has right now. #52: Alberto Passalacqua (greengeeko) (2009-07-28 23:07:32) (reply to #36) It is a criticism to say it comes back that often. A decision was taken more than once, and discussing it again at each release does not make any sense to me. If people are honest in their proposal, and think that KDE should be default just becaue they like KDE, they can choose it from the selection. If they are suggesting that making KDE default should obscure other choices, it seems an extremely political decision in favour of one part, and it does not seem correct to me. It would throw years of work out of the window. OpenSUSE ambivalence is not related to the DE. OpenSUSE is still identified as KDE distribution by many. The ambivalence is due to the alternating quality of releases, that does not allow to build a stable, solid and active group of users and contributors. Things are changing on this front, and we will see how they evolve, but the discussion on the ambivalence of the distro is not surely related only to the fact openSUSE does not have a default DE, which is quite marginal at the end of the day. Giving the image of simplicity does not mean you need to hide a radio button at installation time. It means you need to guide the user in the choice. Moreover, how would you manage the situation with live-cd's? Would you remove the gnome live cd? Hide it on the software portal? #37: Jean-Daniel Dodin (jdd_sysop) (2009-07-28 19:39:07) kde or not, we should have a default... and personnally I vote for kde. Note that the default is mainly done by the available demo cd, not by the dvd. I've seen installing an other distro that there is a "windows like" kde theme. This could be the default. However, the other choices shouldn't be hidden like they are now, but shown on the page with tick boxes, may be with smaller fonts (kde 3.5, gnome, xfce, server, minimal). jdd #38: Robert Williams (bob_williams) (2009-07-28 20:02:51) Choice is important in the FOSS world, so I don't think it should be removed. On the other hand, new users coming from a monolithic OS like Windows are unaware of the differences between desktops, and will probably appreciate a default choice. So the installation could offer a selection of desktop environments, with a button to accept the default, which from my POV should be KDE. Bob #39: Stephen Shaw (decriptor) (2009-07-28 20:03:54) You know if we were to drop the dvd entirely this wouldn't even be an issue. #40: Peter Van Lone (pvanlone) (2009-07-28 20:06:09) Choice is king. I don't give a wack about 'default' -- make the 'default' whatever you want, if you must -- but do not allow that 'default' to obscure that I have a choice. So -- clearly provide a choice, but pre-select one or the other (to me, which is pre-selected 'by default' is totally irrelevant). If the user fails to read or considr and just clicks through, they get 'the default' choice. If they pause and choose, they get the choice. No secrets, no surprises, maximum choice. But frankly if what we have is only choice, with no pre-selection, that too is fine for me. pvl #41: Alvaro Valle (alvaroemmanuel) (2009-07-28 20:22:21) +1 I think it's a great approach! My first successful distro was suse 9.2 with KDE but, since then, I had turned onto GNOME's fan, mostly due to the MONO project (I like C#), for a long time. But recently I've taken a look at the OpenSuse KDE livecd and I get hanged of its beauty and mighty environment! and also Qt4 and C++ are as funny and powerful as C#-Gtk, or even more. So, I think that is cool to have a default option for our OpenSuse, and the choise can't be other than KDE!! #42: Sergio Gabriel (dahool) (2009-07-28 20:42:09) -1 There is nothing wrong with the current desktop selection dialog. There is not any valid reason to make one as default against the others. #43: Alexis Ménard (darktears) (2009-07-28 20:50:53) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #44: Christopher Reitz (stiggg) (2009-07-28 20:52:15) +1 #45: Jonas Gastal (jokerwww) (2009-07-28 20:53:50) +1 It's not about a flamewar issue of wether gnome or kde is better. It's about making it simpler for users. Flexibility is a good thing, that's why I use gentoo I can fine tune every single configuration file, but that is hardly a good starting point for newbies. Default options are already choosen by the cartload, the filesystem, the installed packages, the bootloader, etc. Providing a default makes it easier for people who don't want to choose, and there are plenty of those around. I would suggest that in the normal installation there should be no DE selection screen. However openSuSE should continue to offer a advanced installation in which the user can select the DE. #46: Ricardo Ortiz (cibuco) (2009-07-28 20:57:45) +1 #47: Stephan Böni (boenis) (2009-07-28 21:00:05) +1 #48: Ioan Vancea (ionutvan) (2009-07-28 21:18:26) yes, it is a great ideea to have KDE as default, so +1 from me. #49: Will Stephenson (wstephenson) (2009-07-28 21:38:30) OT: Does everyone commenting +1/-1 know how the voting system works?  Hover the red/green bar at the top right of the page and some sneaky AJAX buttons appear. #53: Radomír Černoch (radomir_cernoch) (2009-08-05 18:52:16) (reply to #49) +1 #51: Mike Arthur (mikekarthur) (2009-07-28 22:52:47) +1 from me, would love to see OpenSUSE be a KDE-focused distro. #54: Marko Kaznovac (kaznovac) (2009-08-06 00:45:03) -1 I state myself as a KDE-fan but possibility to make a choice == freedom a compromise would be to skip selection of Window Manager, in favor of KDE4, but in installation summary an option to chose WMs [I have in mind checkboxes here], and set default one  must exist. simply add [optional] more information about each WM, a screenshot or two, maybe even tabular 'feature' comparison, ... anything to help user  chose. #55: Luigi Airoldi (sunrots) (2009-08-06 10:47:02) - 1 Well, I never used Gnome in openSUSE. I'm also a Sled10 user, with (surprise) the reliable Kde 3.5. So clearly I prefer Kde. But my question is: Why you want to determine a discrimination between the two DE? Imho is not a clever idea. OpenSUSE can be really an alternative for users migrating from * buntu and derivatives. So the choice of Gnome as DE must be evident during the installation. Don't make the mistake of hiding Gnome choice among the secondary options! We miss many users in this manner. Seems that the Opensuse team wants to push users to using Kde 4, when this DE is not a stable alternative yet. #56: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-06 11:18:03) [x] kde [_] Gnome [_] Other #57: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-08-06 11:46:11) KDE should be the default. GNOME should still be selectable at installation - it would be an unnecessary hurdle for GNOME users to first install the Minimal X and then GNOME. I am aware that one could go into the "Packages..." in yast2, but traditionally even I (using "minimal X" when installing new machines) skip because it often takes too long to wait -- there are already considerable delays in the installer -- and additionally, sometimes the yast2 software dialog seems to want to install additional dependencies even if you did not select anything new. #58: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-06 15:59:13) -1 GNOME in openSUSE is actually poorly supported. I wish I could get similar GNOME quality as is in Ubuntu or Fedora. #59: Paul Gibbs (unicycletallpaul) (2009-08-06 16:26:21) Arrgh too much already... KDE this, GNOME that, XFCE iterruptions. "Choice is King" Well I would like the freedom to choose or not choose. That means there should be a default so I can choose not to choose. I should never be dictated to such that I am forced to make a choice where it is not necessary to make one, and it is not necessary when GNOME and KDE are perfectly good defaults. This political thing started something crazy - why are we being dictated too; "YOU MUST CHOOSE EITHER KDE OR GNOME (or something else)". WTF? Forcing choice is actually de-liberating. Have a default, those that want to change it can do so as they click through. Real freedom comes with giving people the option to change something, not forcing them to set something. Having concluded that there should be a default I have to conceed that KDE is the obvious choice. Paul. +1 - A vote for choice really should be a vote for a default. #60: Dean Hilkewich (deanjo13) (2009-08-06 16:41:50) +1 here as well.  This is certianly a true test of seeing how much influence the users of openSUSE have on the projects direction.  When it was announced that SLE would be Gnome based there was a huge outcry of users not favoring this move and they felt their voice was ignored. Now they have a voice and this will show if the community decides the direction or if Novell still holds the trump card. #61: Marcos David (marcosgildavid) (2009-08-06 16:58:22) +1 - Go KDE! Go! :D Been using KDE since i started with GNU/Linux, as a sysadmin I think its far better than GNOME and a zillion times more flexible. #62: Federico Lucifredi (flucifredi) (2009-08-07 00:47:42) -1. This is a shortsighted proposal that is only divisive to our contributors. We already have the best KDE distro out there, the only net result that can come of this is alienating our Gnome developers. Some may find this kind of pissing contest interesting, but I have very little tolerance for such BS. the openSUSE leaders needs to exercise common sense and... leadership in avoiding this kind of demagogic push from harming our distro. if 150,000 votes came in to rename the distro "Colbert", would you do it? (google "nasa" and "colbert" if this is arcane to you). People who love this kind of arguments are those that have not spent their time contributing to either project, they prefer to spend their time arguing. Panem et Circenses (Bread and Circuses), that's what we have here. #63: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:16:27) (reply to #62) Well said, friend. #65: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:25:25) (reply to #63) Well said Chosing their desktop should be matter of choise not imposition. #70: skip paul (skippaul) (2009-08-07 18:15:47) (reply to #62) Well put Federio. #64: Geronimo Orozco (gorozco) (2009-08-07 01:19:25) -1 I vote for the user to chose their default desktop, mine is GNOME !!! #66: Sanford Armstrong (sanfordarmstrong) (2009-08-07 01:29:40) I agree with Federico (#62). Having a default desktop is nice, but we really already have that with our live CDs.  Picking GNOME or KDE as the One True Desktop for openSUSE would erode our support for the "loser", and have no real gains for the "winner". I happen to prefer GNOME (usability and accessibility for disabled users are pretty important to me), but I would not want to "win" at the cost of seeing our KDE support suffer. Ultimately, the votes on this "feature" are largely self-selecting...I don't think a GNOME user browsing openFATE would bother opening this to read it, let alone bothering to vote.  This doesn't strike me as a decision that should be made via popular vote, and I hope the board will keep the negative consequences in mind if this is ever brought up as a serious proposal. #67: Aaron Bockover (aaronbockover) (2009-08-07 01:51:48) I vote for no bias. I also vote for those voting for this manner of change upon openSUSE to embrace and follow the Guiding Principles [1] of the openSUSE project, wherein we all agree that "we are ... a heterogenous project, which embraces a wide variety of technology , people with different levels of expertise, speaking different languages and having different cultural backgrounds." (Emphasis mine) Frank Karlitschek [2] opened this distraction, but, "the user does not support the Guiding Principles." Understanding and embracing these principles is paramount to understanding why such a requested change is nothing more than a hurtful distraction to the openSUSE project and community as a whole. We've had no default for quite some time, and there is no value in having one now. The only result of such a change will be negative -- valuable openSUSE GNOME contributors may find themselves alienated. [1] https://users.opensuse.org/guidingprinciples [2] https://users.opensuse.org/show/frankkarlitschek #68: Vincenzo Andretta (v_andretta) (2009-08-07 17:55:02) Voted yes, but I am having second thoughts... I realize the risk of alienating GNOME contributors (as pointed out by several, last: #67).  And, regarding new users, while I can easily imagine the face of a new, unexperienced user, puzzled in front of the screen, wondering "KDE? GNOME?", I am also starting to think that a new user approaching a Linux distribution (whatever that be) should already be expecting, or even looking for choices.   Isn't that one of the strong points of Linux? #69: F L (f2sucks) (2009-08-07 18:04:26) -1 please. #71: Joe Harmon (jaharmon) (2009-08-07 18:34:27) -1 I don't feel that having a preselected option equals equal treatment of two desktops that are supposed to be supported equally. #72: Glenn Doig (doiggl) (2009-08-08 04:29:51) +1, KDE as default, gnome as an alternative. #73: Nat Budin (nbudin) (2009-08-08 08:35:01) -1.  It's certainly true that SuSE is the best KDE distribution out there, but it's also important to acknowledge the great contributions Novell and SuSE's teams have made to the GNOME desktop.  See, for example, the GNOME Slab Menu, the Tango project, F-Spot, Banshee, Beagle, and of course Mono.  I think it's great that Novell supports both major desktops and puts resources and money behind improving both of them. #74: jean-christophe baptiste (phocean) (2009-08-08 17:14:15) -1 As a Gnome user, I vote against. openSUSE is a major distro and should not be for or against any of the major window managers. The choice is given during the set up, and that the only thing that matters. If KDE were selected by default, and more ressources given to this project, then I would just switch to Ubuntu or Fedora, because I don't want of it. I think one of the strength of openSUSE is that it is a high quality distro, that provides a smooth environment whatever manager you use. So please keep up the good job and don't change anything for whoever fanboys. #75: Rafał Polak (linux-juzer) (2009-08-08 20:46:11) I'm sorry about my (#58) harsh comment. I'm sure that both GNOME and KDE teams are doing their best. What bothers me is this whole discussion about #306967. I wish we could focus on making openSUSE better, more polished distribution, and not wasting developers and users (contributors) time on such IMHO silly topic. #76: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:15:34) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the KDE community. #77: Alojz Stanich (howtodo) (2009-08-09 11:32:35) I propose: openSUSE should return home to Europe, to the pure and original creativity. Get free from udergrounds. I propose: KDE to develop the KDE distribution additionally. The financial ground could be organized with the leading european institutions and the kde community. #78: Eduar Arley Cardona (eduararley) (2009-08-09 23:13:10) -1. Freedom is the best openSuSE has! #79: Arno Pähler (paehler) (2009-08-10 15:18:46) I have been using KDE as my default desktop for probably about 10 years. Recently, with the introduction of KDE4, I have switched to Gnome, because I found KDE4 slow and close to unusable. As KDE 4.3 became available a couple of days ago, I tried it and immediately switched back to Gnome. For the time being, much like Linux Torvalds, who apparently switched from KDE to Gnome for exactly the same reasons, I will stick with Gnome and am strongly opposed to making KDE the openSuSE default. KDE4 is pure horror - as a desktop: I use quite a few KDE4 programs, kdiff3, okular, kate, kwrite, kdevelop.... But as a desktop: forget it - KDE3 was a pleasure to use. KDE4 no way. Hope it reaches a state, where it is usable. #80: N B (weissbier) (2009-08-12 12:04:28) I've only used Linux for a couple of weeks and applaud any attempts to make it less complex for new adopters. Choice is fine for experienced users, but please provide a fast-track install for those of us just trying out the OS, with a minimum of questions. Perhaps have KDE as a 'newbie' install default and Gnome as default for an 'experienced user' install. It has been traumatic enough to get the PC set up, finding no video drivers shipped, app install highly arcane if the PC has no Internet connection, any search on tech issues throwing up a dozen different and often conflicting suggestions, multiple distros/versions/desktop enviroments,.. It's almost enough to send you running screaming back to the familiar Windows environment. Offering both DEs is a plus for OpenSUSE - but to know which you prefer you have to have experience with both. For people with experience with neither it helps to push them in the direction of the majority of the user base - so they have a better chance of finding some support. #81: Richard Lennox (rlx01) (2009-08-13 16:01:54) I agree KDE should be the default.  Historically KDE has been used by SuSE and it seems surprising that openSuSE does not already specifiy it as a default.  As far as NEW users are concerned KDE seems more intuitive to migrants from other OSes. #82: andrea florio (anubisg1) (2009-08-15 23:14:45) i really disagree with that. suse is already the best kde distro (like ubuntu is the best gnome one). gnome saved the butt to suse 11.1 as somebody sed: “# our strength is to support choice and two major desktops” my answer here is a BIG no, instead, we really have to say a big THANKS to our gnome team, that saved use 11.1, that provides the DEFAULT DE on SLE #83: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-16 11:42:18) As gnome was the weapon of choice in the beginning for some distros - mainly due to the fact that QT was not full OpenSource - there are no such restrictions anymore, I would prefer KDE as standard desktop as well. To me it is more ergonomic and 'sexy' compared to gnome - not only because I use it since version 1.0. Nobody cares if ubuntu & co make gnome their default. Lets make KDE the standard and remove one decision point from new user - they cant rate it anyway. +1 #84: Hans Penner (hansfer89) (2009-08-19 16:53:46) +1 Since the begin I used kde on suse, then opensuse... And ist great. #85: Michael Löffler (michl19) (2009-08-20 16:01:58) As written in my email on openSUSE-project, http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2009-08/msg00548.html, we follow the request and default the radio button to KDE, keep the alphabetic order and we'll enchance the desktop description in the help text. #86: Thomas Thym (ungethym) (2009-08-21 07:42:09) Great news.  +1 for OpenSUSE, a real community based distribution. #87: Miguel Angel Alvarez (maacruz) (2009-08-21 12:18:18) +1 for kde 3.5 -0.5 for kde4 Kde4 is not still ready to be the default. Bring back kde 3.5 #88: Axel Braun (docb) (2009-08-21 14:59:11) (reply to #87) Disagree. KDE 4.3 made me move away from 3.5.10, it has sufficient stability for a production environment. #89: Elmar Stellnberger ATK (estellnb) (2009-08-23 14:05:39) By principle we could add a 'KDE3 - unsupported' option as well or even allow the selection of multiple desktiops i.e. KDE4+Gnome or KDE4+KDE3 (see: Feature 306733, https://features.opensuse.org/306733). From the viewpoint of disk space installing multiple desktops will not mind. On the other hand Linux newbies may want to decide about their favourite desktop not before giving both working environments a try. You may select the desktop to boot into when logging in via KDM (auto- login should be disable for multi-selects). #91: jimbo bigcreed (dimble_thricefoon) (2009-08-24 11:43:59) +1 for opensuse. looking forward to 4.3.1 in opensuse 11.2. #92: Kahenya Kamunyu (kahenya) (2009-08-29 21:58:54) I have been using KDE forever but stability was an issue. Moved to Gnome which is more stable. Only thing I miss is Konqueror. Thats the Konqueror in 3. The one in KDE 4 is rubbish. All Gnome lacks right now is a proper filemanager that can beat Konqueror and thats it. #93: Yuri NRM Martins (neurom4nc3r) (2009-09-04 08:32:38) It's more easy put a better explanation on the installation screen. It's include the information that's KDE 4 or above is only for fast computers and the new konqueror sux a lot. I remember the first time when i used the opensuse 10.3 with kde3.5.7, its was very good: light, stable, complex and attractive on visual terms. I hope that suse continues with that characteristics, upgrading without lose its old concepts. #94: Christian Quante (chrischaan) (2009-09-26 16:31:37) A question of balance...   IMHO it's a nice idea to make KDE the "default" desktop. Most distributions choose GNOME as their default desktop, so it's a nice signal, that openSUSE turns back to KDE.   And keep in mind: more usage of a desktop results in more stability, because of the feedback from users. #95: Adam Williams (whitemice) (2009-10-02 16:38:11) Terrible idea;  GNOME is simpler and more elegant and more professional in appearance.  It is certainly better suited to new users than cluttered KDE. #96: Jan Engelhardt (jengelh) (2009-10-15 21:35:44) (reply to #95) It's *too* simple for some. And, real professionals only need a console anyway (a bunch of xterms atop of twm/icewm/whatever) ;-) #97: Stephan Hadan (stiebke2009) (2009-10-18 22:35:40) I can not agree. I think GNOME ist easier to understand and more professional in appearance.  #98: Stephan Kleine (bitshuffler) (2009-10-19 09:17:54) (reply to #97) Sorry guys, but that entry is marked as DONE so please stop spamming it.   The conclusion simply is that whatever is used by the majority of the users is marked as default. Which also means that as soon as Gnome is used by the majority it will be used as default.   Now please be so kind and stop posting here some "I like it" or "That suckz" posts cause it wont change anything but will just spam anyone filed as "interested" in that feature with a mail.   Thanks a lot in advance. #99: Frederick Yeboah (kwaku) (2009-11-03 16:29:00) In my own view using GNOME as defualt is good. I have no deficulty working with any of the desktops. However, after working with KDE for a while I am tempted to say that GNOME is much more stable and easy to use #100: W. Shawn Wilkerson (wshawn) (2009-11-13 13:04:44) I prefer KDE, but over the years have been forced to use GNOME as I had far to many issues with KDE crashing on mission critical applications we run here, though I will be installing the 11.2 KDE for testing this weekend. But I do believe the "mareketing" of openSuse would benefit from picking one and using it in the predominant number of aticles, press releases, and images found around openSuse. Providing choice is what Linux is based on, but I believe it would be smarter to remove all references to the GUI except in "advanced" modes and simply install KDE. This will minimalize the beginning stages of support questions and the stress associated with new users having to answer a bunch of question about many terms some of us take for granted.  The learning curb is steep enough ( and I have nine degrees in the computer industry) we should make this as simple (not thinking) as possible.  An additional aide may be smolt automatically running (without approval) as soon as a ping to openSuse.org comes back active, followed by a link being place in Yast and Firefox (or other browser) so people can directly link to their profile and send that as part of the initial questions.  Additionally, the forums here may want to add the ability to list up to five computers which simply list the smolt uuid for the user to pick from in a drop down box.     #101: Christian Jäger (eet) (2009-11-16 11:42:08) KDE 4 is still not stable enough and thus a bad choice for a default desktop environment.   Please see the negative review it has earned us:   http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20091116#feature (http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20091116#feature) + #102: Christian Jäger (eet) (2009-11-16 11:48:30) (reply to #101) + As there seems to be no option to edit my comment, here's an excerpt as + a reply-to-self (highlighting by me): + "Within an hour or two I would run into an application crash or even a + hard system lockup (no, not just X) which is simply unacceptable in a + modern operating system. GNOME and Xfce are considerably better so a + user who has little interest in KDE or KDE applications would likely be + able to use openSUSE 11.2 without many problems once installation and + configuration were complete. + I must say I found openSUSE 11.2 to be a major disappointment. I've + come to expect better, much better, from Novell. If it weren't for the + stability issues with KDE and relatively poor netbook support this + distribution would have been a keeper for me. [... ]For me, though, + openSUSE 11.2 just doesn't compare favorably to the other major + distributions and I can't recommend it at this time." -- openSUSE Feature: https://features.opensuse.org/306967