[opensuse-factory] "default" packages
Perhaps i should enter it as a requested enhancement ;-) When wanting a bare minimal system, (by selecting text-mode only) i expect a real-minimum, however.... I find a lot of packages installed, which might be very nice and helpfull, but i did not select them. they are in three catagories: a) nice be not requested: like tcpdump. This is something a often select, but it should be included into the catagorie of "power-tools for experienced users", not default. b) not wanted. If i want printing, i will select them: cups, cups-drivers, cups-libs, gutenberg, yats2-print should belong to a sub-thread.... c) waste of time/disk space hardware scan should know what kind of hardware there is. Why of why is yast2-scanner, yast2-irda, xfs-tools, dos-stuff installed???? My MOBO does not have a sound-card: so why do i get alsa? (new sound-thread) All of these packages are probaly nice for some people to have. But there are also lots of people who don't need them. Reasoning is this. Either if i select a packages manually, or it it gets installed by default, i have to claryfy its presence with an security officer. Same if its gets installed by default, i i decide to get rid of it. I rather have it not installed unless the it is really needed, Hans -- pgp-id: 926EBB12 pgp-fingerprint: BE97 1CBF FAC4 236C 4A73 F76E EDFC D032 926E BB12 Registered linux user: 75761 (http://counter.li.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hans Witvliet a écrit :
I find a lot of packages installed, which might be very nice and helpfull, but i did not select them. they are in three catagories:
and why so many gnome libraries? even icons! on a text install! the install is given for 800mb, but final is 1.1gb on my computer jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
jdd schrieb:
and why so many gnome libraries? even icons! on a text install!
This has been noticed very late ;-) Call the packages by name (not "gnome libraries", but e.g. "glib2"), find out where the dependency comes from and try to find out whether the dependency is necessary. If it is, do nothing, if it is not, report a bug against the package where the dependency chain starts. Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
jdd schrieb:
and why so many gnome libraries? even icons! on a text install!
This has been noticed very late ;-)
Call the packages by name (not "gnome libraries", but e.g. "glib2"), find out where the dependency comes from and try to find out whether the dependency is necessary.
If it is, do nothing, if it is not, report a bug against the package where the dependency chain starts.
there are a lot, and I did see "gnome" on the display :-( there are also many documentation package that should not be here. on a minimal install, only man page should be there (is that even necessary?) I will try to report, but I'm usure the system is still in the needed configuration :-( I think there must be an install log? where? (just in case I wont find it) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
jdd schrieb:
there are a lot, and I did see "gnome" on the display :-(
"A lot" is not enough, I need the exact package names in order to find out where the dependency chain starts and if it is legitimate. If the problem consists mainly of seeing the string "gnome" on the display, case closed
there are also many documentation package that should not be here. on a minimal install, only man page should be there (is that even necessary?)
Which documentation packages? Package names, please. Note that I know that many packages have problematic and partly plain wrong dependencies (which were added over the time as workarounds for other problems and never removed), but the number of packages (3000 source RPMs) is _far_ too large to even start working on it without a very specific example. Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
Which documentation packages? Package names, please.
easy: /usr/share/doc but: /usr/share/doc> du -sh 87M so I don't know is this is worth the hassle to don't install the doc (it's always possible to remove it afterward) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
jdd schrieb:
and why so many gnome libraries? even icons! on a text install!
This has been noticed very late ;-)
Call the packages by name (not "gnome libraries", but e.g. "glib2"),
in y2logRPM: 2006-11-24 20:02:03 gnome-filesystem-0.1-287.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:51:55 gnome-mime-data-2.4.2-41.noarch.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:52:05 gnome-keyring-0.6.0-17.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:52:54 gnome-icon-theme-2.16.0.1-11.noarch.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:55:26 libgnomecups-0.2.2-45.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:59:41 gnome-vfs2-2.16.1-22.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:59:49 libgnomecanvas-2.14.0-22.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 20:59:56 libgnomeprint-2.12.1-46.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 21:01:41 libgnome-2.16.0-25.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 21:02:14 libgnomeui-2.16.1-17.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 21:02:21 libgnomesu-1.0.0-65.i586.rpm installed ok 2006-11-24 21:02:30 libgnomeprintui-2.12.1-46.i586.rpm installed ok
find out where the dependency comes from and try to find out whether the dependency is necessary.
I'm not very goo at rpm. provides don't give me many things. what may I do? jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
jdd schrieb:
2006-11-24 20:02:03 gnome-filesystem-0.1-287.i586.rpm installed ok
This is a fake package that contains mostly empty directories and is 1.3 kB in size. Ignore it and do as if it would not contain the string "gnome" in its name - it might vanish very soon.
2006-11-24 20:51:55 gnome-mime-data-2.4.2-41.noarch.rpm installed ok
This is needed by gnome-vfs2 only, I'll try to find out whether the dependency is necessary. I think it is. For the rest: See MozillaFirefox.
2006-11-24 20:52:05 gnome-keyring-0.6.0-17.i586.rpm installed ok
Legitimately needed by many packages, so the question is whether its consumers are legitimate. Some of them might be avoidable.
2006-11-24 20:52:54 gnome-icon-theme-2.16.0.1-11.noarch.rpm installed ok
Needed by several packages, there are certainly illegitimate dependencies among them that have been added over the time and can be removed now.
2006-11-24 20:55:26 libgnomecups-0.2.2-45.i586.rpm installed ok
Required by libgnomeprint and libgnomeprintui. Dependency might be bogus, should be investigated. The real question here is whether the consumers of libgnomeprint and libgnomeprintui are legitimate.
2006-11-24 20:59:41 gnome-vfs2-2.16.1-22.i586.rpm installed ok
Required by MozillaFirefox, the dependency is correct. Possible solutions: (1) Split the GNOME integration parts out into something like MozillaFirefox-gnome (2) Hide the dependency from rpm, possible via hacks, but ugly (3) Remove MozillaFirefox from the default installation.
2006-11-24 20:59:49 libgnomecanvas-2.14.0-22.i586.rpm installed ok
Legitimately needed by mozilla-xulrunner181 which has been added to the default installation.
2006-11-24 20:59:56 libgnomeprint-2.12.1-46.i586.rpm installed ok
Should be avoidable, needs more investigation.
2006-11-24 21:01:41 libgnome-2.16.0-25.i586.rpm installed ok
Needed by MozillaFirefox, see above.
2006-11-24 21:02:14 libgnomeui-2.16.1-17.i586.rpm installed ok
Might be avoidable.
2006-11-24 21:02:21 libgnomesu-1.0.0-65.i586.rpm installed ok
Probably pulled in by error-prone hand-written dependencies, there are certainly avoidable ones among them.
2006-11-24 21:02:30 libgnomeprintui-2.12.1-46.i586.rpm installed ok
Might be avoidable, but I couldn't find wrong dependencies for now, so it must be a superfluous package that pulls this in. Hot candidates: librsvg, compiz May I ask if you happen to use gdm as display manager? That would explain a lot. But thanks, while investigating this list I already found out that anjuta has buggy-handwritten dependencies which is very error prone. Won't solve your problem (unless you're using anjuta, which I doubt), but is a starting point. This is a general problem with many GNOME packages, all hand-written dependencies should be reviewed because they are really old cruft and things have changed. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke schrieb:
This is a general problem with many GNOME packages, all hand-written dependencies should be reviewed because they are really old cruft and things have changed.
Note that I have another bug pending (#223387) that is partly responsible for excess dependencies among packages that use pkg-config in their build system. In short, pkg-config is configured to convert all private dependencies into public ones. This has been added years ago as a workaround for a pkg-config bug which is fixed now, so the workaround can be removed. No other major distribution still does this. It will be a hard job convincing the guys that this will not result in non-prelinkable libraries and that Linux and glibc don't need all deplibs to be linked in (seriously, they really don't need it), but I'll try it anyway ;-) Since most packages that use pkg-config happen to be GNOME packages, it should hopefully reduce the dependency problems in the GNOME area a little. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Andreas Hanke a écrit :
(3) Remove MozillaFirefox from the default installation.
remember we speak of _text_ minimal install, what does mozilla do here? problem is... I can't reliably help here. when you asked me to report these gnome things, I had already begun to install X (see what kind of problem is this (RC1) post), so I'm unsure of what was exactly on the text install and what have been added and not removed after But here what I did just now: * go to yast, list the gnome products in "search" * for any installed one, hit the space bar until the dependency popup come. as a result, sax2 seems to be the main responsible. (with xdg_menu and yast2-X11) but of course sax2 is usefull if ever one wants to have X installed. does it needs to be in default? general ideas (not for 10.2): all the problem is size. what we need is a tool to know precisely what is the size of a given install list (without having to do the install). I couldn't find a way to save the "installation summary". This was possible till 10.0 in summary, we should be able to make a test install, have a size and discuss if the size gain is worth the problem. the dependency problem makes it very difficult to know what is the real impact of a small change. jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/mediawiki/index.php/GPS_Lowrance_GO --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
* Hans Witvliet
Perhaps i should enter it as a requested enhancement ;-)
When wanting a bare minimal system, (by selecting text-mode only) i expect a real-minimum, however....
We had this discussion on opensuse-factory before ;-) Real-minimum means something different to everyone you're asking. I'd like to encourage all of you to continue the pattern discussion and help finding building blocks.
a) nice be not requested: like tcpdump. This is something a often select, but it should be included into the catagorie of "power-tools for experienced users", not default.
Which is probably still to coarse - "tcp/ip network debugging" is probably more appropriate.
b) not wanted. If i want printing, i will select them: cups, cups-drivers, cups-libs, gutenberg, yats2-print should belong to a sub-thread....
Which set of packages are _really_ needed for printing ?
c) waste of time/disk space hardware scan should know what kind of hardware there is. Why of why is yast2-scanner, yast2-irda, xfs-tools, dos-stuff installed????
Thats part of the default install on purpose - have all configuration tools present which pull in additional packages. Its a usability compromise.
My MOBO does not have a sound-card: so why do i get alsa? (new sound-thread)
So we need a sound pattern, with which packages ?
Reasoning is this. Either if i select a packages manually, or it it gets installed by default, i have to claryfy its presence with an security officer. Same if its gets installed by default, i i decide to get rid of it.
One of the enhancements planned for the future is to document the "why?" of installed packages better. Pattern - if used as functional building blocks - can help here as they relate packages to functionalities.
I rather have it not installed unless the it is really needed,
'Really needed' is probably just glibc and bash - for a minimal chroot environment. It always depends what you want to do with the system, and thats different for everyone. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (4)
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Andreas Hanke -
Hans Witvliet -
jdd -
Klaus Kaempf