Dne 31.5.2013 10:16, Jiri Slaby napsal(a):

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On 05/31/2013 10:03 AM, David Majda wrote:

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Hi,

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby.

Nice!

Obvious question: Is there a repo in OBS to be added to factory and test this stuff?

http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/YaST:/Head:/ruby/ It contains YaST packages for 12.3 & Factory and two Factory-based images (miniDVD, fullDVD) with Ruby-based installer. If you find any issues that are not present in regular YaST, please file them on GitHub: https://github.com/yast/ycp-killer/issues As you or others can also be interested in testing the images, I'll add some details about them: To test the images, you need to boot them with "insecure=1" boot option as the installer is not signed by the official SUSE GPG signing key. During the installation you need to accept the GPG key used in YaST:Head:ruby project. In case of miniDVD, the image contains only packages for minimal system. In the Desktop Selection installer dialog you need to choose Other -> "Minimal Server Selection (Text Mode)" for the software selection, otherwise you'll get solver errors for missing packages. In case of fullDVD, you can also select Other -> "Minimal X Window", which means the 2nd installation stage will run in graphical mode and some more YaST modules will be installed and used during the 2nd stage (like sound, tv card or printer module). -- David Majda SUSE Studio developer http://susestudio.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

David Majda wrote:

Hi,

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby. The main goals are to give the platform a technology boost, so that we can evolve it easier in the future, and lower the effort spent on maintenance in the long term.

The project recently reached an important milestone -- we are able to install a 12.3-based system using an installer composed only of translated YaST modules:

http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-05/msg00026.html

We would like to integrate that work Factory/openSUSE 13.1 soon. Technically the integration mainly means that we would do a final switch of the language to Ruby in YaST's Git repository and submit updated packages into Factory.

We think we will be able to do this in time for M4. We'd also like to use M2 and M3 as test-beds and produce our own versions of the images (meaning we'll take exactly the same packages as in M2/M3, replace the YaST ones with Ruby version, and build the image in the same way as official images). We'd also like to use the openQA infrastructure to test our images extensively. We think that with this approach we'll be well-prepared for the final integration and we'll minimize the number of bugs and regressions.

For more details about the plan and reasoning behind it, see my e-mail on yast-devel:

http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-05/msg00035.html

Since this is a big change, I thought it would be good to announce it here. If anyone has any questions or objections, please let me know so we can discuss them and possibly adapt the plan. Thanks.

Speaking with my community hat on: I vote yes even if there is a risk of a delayed release. YaST is a major opensuse differentiator and news like this would be fantastic. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 31 May 2013 17:57:56 +0200 (CEST) Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Friday 2013-05-31 10:03, David Majda wrote:

...

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby. [...] For more details about the plan and reasoning behind it, see my e-mail on yast-devel:

http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-05/msg00035.html

Why exactly Ruby? (No info was found on that within the message and the one linked to in it.)

Hi Jan, this is good question. Answer is in different thread on yast-devel as we discussed it before for previous attempt Amaranth [0] and [1], which mvidner started, but we lately decided to go slightly different direction. So we just took result of why ruby discussion and start coding it smaller step that is convertor from ycp to ruby. And last but not least, convert well known language to another well known language latter if there is strong reason for it is much easier like ruby to python compiler [2]. I hope it will answer your question. Don't hesitate to ask if something is not clear, but unless there is strong reason to not use ruby we will use it as it is the easiest way for us to convert ycp to modern well known language. Josef [0] http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2011-02/msg00040.html [1] http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2011-02/msg00041.html [2] https://github.com/whymirror/unholy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/06/13 16:25, Michael Schroeder wrote:

On Mon, Jun 03, 2013 at 04:23:37PM +0200, Josef Reidinger wrote:

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I hope it will answer your question. Don't hesitate to ask if something is not clear, but unless there is strong reason to not use ruby we will use it as it is the easiest way for us to convert ycp to modern well known language.

Isn't ruby really slow compared to e.g. python?

Cheers, Michael.

Yes I think this is true, but it was only really relevant on ruby 1.8 times (and depends a lot on the specific benchmark). Ruby 1.9 is quite ok, and YaST is not a place where you will notice it. No sat-solver in ruby, just glue code between human workflows and native code. Still, if you want numbers: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=yarv&lang2=python3 -- Duncan Mac-Vicar P. - http://www.suse.com/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2013-06-03 16:38, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

On 31/05/13 17:57, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Friday 2013-05-31 10:03, David Majda wrote:

...

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby. [...] For more details about the plan and reasoning behind it, see my e-mail on yast-devel:

http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-05/msg00035.html

Why exactly Ruby? (No info was found on that within the message and the one linked to in it.)

It satisfies that is a popular scripting language with a decent community and tools around it, and it happens at the same time that people working with YaST and other projects around SUSE and openSUSE are very proficient with it.

Probably python would have been another option. Lot of developers are also very proficient with it, but it would not make a big difference.

Well I am "worried" because it means introducing more dependencies into a standard system. Up to now, I was able to keep ruby out, because nothing serious depended on it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 6/3/2013 11:30 AM, Josef Reidinger wrote:

On Mon, 3 Jun 2013 17:16:49 +0200 (CEST) Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Monday 2013-06-03 16:38, Duncan Mac-Vicar P. wrote:

...

On 31/05/13 17:57, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Friday 2013-05-31 10:03, David Majda wrote:

...

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby. [...] For more details about the plan and reasoning behind it, see my e-mail on yast-devel:

http://lists.opensuse.org/yast-devel/2013-05/msg00035.html

Why exactly Ruby? (No info was found on that within the message and the one linked to in it.)

It satisfies that is a popular scripting language with a decent community and tools around it, and it happens at the same time that people working with YaST and other projects around SUSE and openSUSE are very proficient with it.

Probably python would have been another option. Lot of developers are also very proficient with it, but it would not make a big difference.

Well I am "worried" because it means introducing more dependencies into a standard system. Up to now, I was able to keep ruby out, because nothing serious depended on it.

Well, more dependencies is questionable as code is already there, just it is C implementation of ruby, but C++ implementation of YCP. Of course YCP implementation is much simplistic so it is smaller, but it also means, that there is more code in ycp that provide basic functionality that is already in ruby. So my hope is that we just replace one dependency by another. But to be honest to you, it won't happen in 13.1 as there is still small parts that use ycp code as data format and we kept it there to not break anything. Plan is to remove it in next steps.

To summary it, I think that dependencies for people not using any ruby is just switched and for people using something written in ruby will be decreased.

Well, not exactly. If yast depends on ruby, then the user is not free to install the ruby of their choice, ie upgrades, source install, security addons, performance/caching add-ons. They would either have to lock their version of ruby to whatever yast needs, or maintain 2 ruby installs one just for yast (and hope yast can even be told to use it), or risk breaking yast. Systems run a lot longer than suse supports them. So after a very few months, suse is no longer updating yast on that version of suse, but the user is still using the system and probably wants to update ruby. I am all for this change because maintaining custom dead end proprietary stuff that has been surpassed elsewhere for "free" doesn't do any of us any good. And although I don't use ruby either, the arguments for using it make good enough sense. By all means, proceed! Just please be aware that there are complications. They can be worked around a few different ways if you are thinking of them early and throughout, instead of everyone is surprised after it's too late to help. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 13:35:00 -0400 Roman Bysh wrote:

<snip>

Are we looking for the complete Yast rewrite to be available in the 13x series? Maybe 13.2?

No, complete rewrite is something we want to avoid as complete rewrite is something that takes a lot of time and there is risk of loosing important workarounds and features. My personal prefer is evolution rather than revolution. So we convert code from ycp to ruby in 13.1 and next steps will be also small, depending what brings us the most benefits. It will be probably cleaning core parts that won't be needed after conversion, but there is no agreement in team yet. Josef -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

David Majda writes:

as some may know, since January few SUSE developers in Prague are working on automatically translating YaST codebase from YCP (an old proprietary language) into Ruby.

I wouldn't call YCP a proprietary language. As YaST2, it was GPL'ed from the very beginning. -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stefan Seyfried writes:

Am 04.06.2013 09:26, schrieb Karl Eichwalder:

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I wouldn't call YCP a proprietary language. As YaST2, it was GPL'ed from the very beginning.

YaST2 was not GPL from the very beginning IIUC.

Ok, you are right, the GPL came later ;-( -- Karl Eichwalder SUSE LINUX Products GmbH R&D / Documentation Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org