[opensuse-factory] OpenSUSE, bugs and some considerations
After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience. I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla. * main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301 * yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727 * Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible. The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious. The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE. The yast-printer bug seems solved, but I still can't see my network printers in yast. I've just reopened the bug. The gimp problem was marked as duplicate of a FIXED bug, but this one links to an inaccessible report. In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution. OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works. I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community. The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing. The issue of testing was addressed by adding a beta release for 10.3, but I don't think the team should expect significant improvements from testing provided by users if * a pre-testing is not done in-house. * no guidelines are given to community testers. * no consideration is given to their reports. Especially the pre-testing is important in my opinion, because community users often don't have enough experience and knowledge, or they don't test the distribution for enough time. Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully Of course all this makes sense only if reports will be considered in time and seriously, hopefully before release ;-) A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once). Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained. Now, I understand many developers at SUSE love KDE and that SUSE was a KDE based distribution. But in the past at least it was coherent: KDE was the default and SUSE was really optimised for KDE. It was so evident that GNOME appeared out of place, and it was OK. A user who chose SUSE knew it was a KDE distribution. Today SUSE has no defaults, so a user thinks he can choose what he likes more, but it's not that way. In openSUSE 10.2 it is so evident a lot of the efforts were put in creating a KDE which is better than GNOME. Examples are many: from the new kickoff menu, which was developed faster than the gnome main-menu and has none of the issues of the gnome one, to the opensuse-updater, which has no equivalent in GNOME (I know one is coming for 10.3). Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME. Moreover GNOME is the default on SLED, and having a low quality GNOME on openSUSE doesn't help to give a good image to potential customers. If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance. Sorry for the long message. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua:
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one?
* Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301
* yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
-- Richard Bos We are borrowing the world of our children, It is not inherited from our parents. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.05 +0100, Richard Bos ha scritto:
Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua:
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one?
I'm sorry. I pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=229190 Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 11:14:27PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.05 +0100, Richard Bos ha scritto:
Op vrijdag 2 maart 2007 22:52, schreef Alberto Passalacqua:
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
This bug number is incorrect. What is the right one?
I'm sorry. I pasted the wrong link. Here's the right one:
This bug does not even seem to be fully evaluated yet... A bit of insistence of the bug reporter is _always_ helpful, in any opensource scenario. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience.
I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla.
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
The bugnr is incorrect.
* Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301
* yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
* Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible.
The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious.
It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list. Since you did not list the right number I cannot comment on it.
The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE.
It is not. Just the package maintainer (Aaron) seems not be as responsive as probably necessary.
The yast-printer bug seems solved, but I still can't see my network printers in yast. I've just reopened the bug.
The gimp problem was marked as duplicate of a FIXED bug, but this one links to an inaccessible report.
No, it was not. The other bug was referenced only. I just opened it for your viewing pleasure. (It was a security bug and the bugfix was released.) This issue is _SOLVED_.
In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution.
It is also full of examples where we released bugfixes.
OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works.
I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community.
This is your view.
The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing.
8 months is "too quickly"? Or do you mean the Alpha->Beta->Release turnaround time? The problem is, that we also have business products on the side to do. And you always want the latest and greatest, so long test cycles only cause other frustrations. Btw, openSUSE alpha1 is out _NOW_ while 10.3 will be released in August... So you can already start testing.
The issue of testing was addressed by adding a beta release for 10.3, but I don't think the team should expect significant improvements from testing provided by users if
* a pre-testing is not done in-house.
It is.
* no guidelines are given to community testers.
Well, we do publish the major changes done. And _you_ know best on what _you_ want to do with openSUSE. We necessarily do not.
* no consideration is given to their reports.
It is harder for us to publish fixes post-release as it is before-release. Developers focus on the next releases, other products etc. Also releasing fixes via online update requires additional QA effort.
Especially the pre-testing is important in my opinion, because community users often don't have enough experience and knowledge, or they don't test the distribution for enough time.
Thats because we release early and often now ... A paramount concept within opensource.
Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully
Everything you do should work ;)
Of course all this makes sense only if reports will be considered in time and seriously, hopefully before release ;-)
A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once).
Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained.
Now, I understand many developers at SUSE love KDE and that SUSE was a KDE based distribution. But in the past at least it was coherent: KDE was the default and SUSE was really optimised for KDE. It was so evident that GNOME appeared out of place, and it was OK. A user who chose SUSE knew it was a KDE distribution.
Today SUSE has no defaults, so a user thinks he can choose what he likes more, but it's not that way.
In openSUSE 10.2 it is so evident a lot of the efforts were put in creating a KDE which is better than GNOME. Examples are many: from the new kickoff menu, which was developed faster than the gnome main-menu and has none of the issues of the gnome one, to the opensuse-updater, which has no equivalent in GNOME (I know one is coming for 10.3).
Well, kickoff was developed on ideas of gnome main-menu ... so it had an existing parent.
Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME.
And WHY NOT? KDE apps work in GNOME, GNOME apps work in KDE. I use GIMP regulary. I use Firefox occasionaly. Under KDE.
Moreover GNOME is the default on SLED, and having a low quality GNOME on openSUSE doesn't help to give a good image to potential customers.
If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance.
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons. Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 23.15 +0100, Marcus Meissner ha scritto:
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience.
I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla.
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
The bugnr is incorrect.
* Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301
* yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
* Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible.
The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious.
It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list.
These and other reports were discussed on IRC with some of you and on this list too, recently ([opensuse-factory] meeting minutes of last dist meeting).
The helix-banshee bug is really a mystery. It's there since beta stage, but no solution is coming. It seems that recompiling a package is impossible at SuSE.
It is not. Just the package maintainer (Aaron) seems not be as responsive as probably necessary.
I'd remove the probably ;-)
In my opinion these issues are serious and the lack of consideration they receive is very disappointing considering that solutions were promised in many occasions, and they're not provided in an acceptable time (~3 months after the official release). The bugzilla is full of other examples of problems which could be easily solved in a short time, but never received a comment. There are many easily fixable bugs with many comments and no solution.
It is also full of examples where we released bugfixes.
Yes and no. Many are security issues, which of course have higher priority. But for a distribution which targets "the home desktop user" also usability and features issue are important.
OpenSUSE, in the opinion of most users, is the mean through which users know SUSE, evaluate it and start using it. There are many users who approached to SUSE through OpenSUSE to evaluate the enterprise line too and to see how the team/community works.
I don't think OpenSUSE is giving a good image of itself neither as a distribution nor as a team/community.
This is your view.
Of course. It's the only thing I can talk about. But it's based on daily experience on discussion boards of users.
The quality of the distribution is lower then in the past due to the choice to release too quickly and the lack of testing.
8 months is "too quickly"?
Or do you mean the Alpha->Beta->Release turnaround time?
The problem is, that we also have business products on the side to do.
And you always want the latest and greatest, so long test cycles only cause other frustrations.
Btw, openSUSE alpha1 is out _NOW_ while 10.3 will be released in August... So you can already start testing.
8 months are OK. I meant that if serious bugs are present, the release should be delayed and not released with issues which will affect many users. Especially if these issues are easily fixable. I know and understand you have enterprise products to do and that they have to receive more attention. But there is a general perception that openSUSE is becoming an experimenting lab for the enterprise line. I don't thing it's wrong in principle, but I think that, if true, it should be clarified so to allow the users to decide what to do accordingly.
* no guidelines are given to community testers.
Well, we do publish the major changes done. And _you_ know best on what _you_ want to do with openSUSE. We necessarily do not.
Yes. I meant the most important areas to check should be pointed out in the release notes for example. Something similar was done for some aspects with testing requests. For example, no doubt the gnome updated has to be tested, or the new printer configuration thing proposed on the ML. I think this should help who tries the testing releases to pay more attention and give more precise feedback.
Guidelines would help us a lot to look for problems in specific areas and to test things more carefully
Everything you do should work ;)
Yes but sometime it just _seems_to_work. I tried all the betas, and the menu seemed to work ok! :-(
Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME.
And WHY NOT? KDE apps work in GNOME, GNOME apps work in KDE.
I use GIMP regulary. I use Firefox occasionaly. Under KDE.
I didn't mean I want to use only GNOME apps under GNOME and only KDE apps under KDE. But often the answer "use kde" is used as an excuse not to answer to a real issue, and it's annoying. More on IRC than on official sources, of course. My considerations involved also the community, not only the development team. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance.
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons.
OK. But this really makes me thing openSUSE should make a choice between going back to be a KDE based distribution or improve the quality of GNOME too (which should not require a huge effort, considering all the job is done for SLED anyway). Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Marcus Meissner wrote:
It just helps to be insistent. And if there is no reaction, just bring it up on this list.
Personally, I have found that defects that I report on bugzilla tend to disappear into the void and are never acted on and sometimes with little to no response. I hardly expect developers to dedicate themselves to every problem that arises, but something a bit more than a token response would be appreciated. For instance refer to the following bug regarding the ivtv driver which was reported on during the 10.1 beta cycle. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=144616 The problem was reported during the development of 10.1 and still hasn't had a real response from the development team. Even a *Won't Fix* would be an acceptable response, but all pings and questions for the last year have disappeared into the void. These days I don't even see an ivtv package in the factory distribution, but no comments to this effect in bugzilla... Other bugs report the same problem, also with no conclusion https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=130098 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=159186 Maybe a post release bug cleanup activity could help here and in similar instances? Perhaps 2-3 months after a release the developers and community could be organized into a one day bug review of the outstanding bugs for the release and evaluate/assign them properly. For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2 Wouldn't it be useful to review all those open bugs from the more recent releases and see if they should be updated to reflect the state of either the current release (10.2) or the factory (10.3), or possibly close them if they represent problems that are negligible in recent releases? Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes. Personally I would be willing to schedule a day or two toward such an activity that I think would improve the quality of defect management in opensuse. I think that the Mozilla lightning/calendar project has the right idea with scheduled community/developer test days. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/2007/03/branch_sunbird_and_google_ca... Thoughts? -- Theodore Bullock, tbullock@canada.com Software Engineering Student, University of Calgary GPG Fingerprint = 3B8E 8B0E D296 AACB 7BE2 24F2 1006 B7BE C8AC 5109 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes.
I really like this idea; KDE also has "bug triage weekends" in #kde-bugs and they tend to be very successful. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Website: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
don't forget many bugs are duplicates, many others are moved from an earlier distro to the next one, so this don't mean the 10.0 have less bugs, but that they will never be fixed :-)
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes.
I really like this idea; KDE also has "bug triage weekends" in #kde-bugs and they tend to be very successful.
pretty good idea :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:17:46 jdd wrote:
Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
don't forget many bugs are duplicates, many others are moved from an earlier distro to the next one, so this don't mean the 10.0 have less bugs, but that they will never be fixed :-)
Even in that scenario, they shouldn't be left open; they should be marked as WONTFIX. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Website: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 08:31:34AM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes.
I really like this idea; KDE also has "bug triage weekends" in #kde-bugs and they tend to be very successful.
We internally call to our packagers and bug owners to review all their bugzillas. But even I have >10 pending bugs and I try to be a role model ;) Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 03:22, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 08:31:34AM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes.
I really like this idea; KDE also has "bug triage weekends" in #kde-bugs and they tend to be very successful.
We internally call to our packagers and bug owners to review all their bugzillas.
But even I have >10 pending bugs and I try to be a role model ;)
Ciao, Marcus
What about idea to take concerted effort on one category. For instance: https://bugzilla.novell.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=fulltext&short_desc=&long_desc_type=fulltext&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=anywords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_severity=Critical&rep_platform=PC&rep_platform=i386&rep_platform=i586&rep_platform=i686&rep_platform=x86-64&rep_platform=x86&rep_platform=64bit&rep_platform=32bit&op_sys=All&op_sys=OES+-+Linux&op_sys=SuSE+Linux+10.0&op_sys=SuSE+Linux+10.1&op_sys=SuSE+Other&op_sys=Linux&op_sys=UNIX+Other&op_sys=Other&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= has 57 bugs, select few that can be tested by this community, put on the list in a new thread and call for help. Notify bug owners to monitor and jump in communication here at the time you announce hunting season. Concentrated effort to bring more people togeather on the same task may help to collect more data and resolve bugs faster. More people on the same task mean also more eyes looking in the Internet for more traces of the same symptoms. I guess that many of us never experience some bugs for many reasons, and have no idea that they exists until it happens. Than we go to bugzilla and if we have luck to select right search criteria, bug will show up and we can add our comment, if not we will file duplicate. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rajko M. schreef:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 03:22, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 08:31:34AM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 00:12:15 Ted Bullock wrote:
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2 Wow, that is quite a few more than I thought.
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes. I really like this idea; KDE also has "bug triage weekends" in #kde-bugs and they tend to be very successful. We internally call to our packagers and bug owners to review all their bugzillas.
But even I have >10 pending bugs and I try to be a role model ;)
Ciao, Marcus
What about idea to take concerted effort on one category. For instance: https://bugzilla.novell.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&short_desc_type=fulltext&short_desc=&long_desc_type=fulltext&long_desc=&bug_file_loc_type=allwordssubstr&bug_file_loc=&status_whiteboard_type=allwordssubstr&status_whiteboard=&keywords_type=anywords&keywords=&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_severity=Critical&rep_platform=PC&rep_platform=i386&rep_platform=i586&rep_platform=i686&rep_platform=x86-64&rep_platform=x86&rep_platform=64bit&rep_platform=32bit&op_sys=All&op_sys=OES+-+Linux&op_sys=SuSE+Linux+10.0&op_sys=SuSE+Linux+10.1&op_sys=SuSE+Other&op_sys=Linux&op_sys=UNIX+Other&op_sys=Other&emailassigned_to1=1&emailtype1=substring&email1=&emailassigned_to2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailcc2=1&emailtype2=substring&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Reuse+same+sort+as+last+time&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0= has 57 bugs, select few that can be tested by this community, put on the list in a new thread and call for help. Notify bug owners to monitor and jump in communication here at the time you announce hunting season.
Concentrated effort to bring more people togeather on the same task may help to collect more data and resolve bugs faster. More people on the same task mean also more eyes looking in the Internet for more traces of the same symptoms.
I guess that many of us never experience some bugs for many reasons, and have no idea that they exists until it happens. Than we go to bugzilla and if we have luck to select right search criteria, bug will show up and we can add our comment, if not we will file duplicate.
These last words are realy the way it is, at least for me... Just to find the duplicates will reduce the number of real and existing bugs...(dramaticly?, let's find out...) And it has been proven worldwide, that if attention is focussed, great things can be established... Also there is going to be more insight in usage and behavior of users (including all of us), and their desired ability for boxes and their OS's.. Also this is a chance for all of us to be taken serious, (if we desire that) ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6Yi2X5/X5X6LpDgRAj5XAJ9IiCecSG/cO9Mx6ydp9roRmRhFhwCeMwRs eX9/DeVlCb5XDYY7YDGvt3I= =5k2r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 3/3/07, Ted Bullock <tbullock@canada.com> wrote:
Other bugs report the same problem, also with no conclusion https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=130098 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=159186
Maybe a post release bug cleanup activity could help here and in similar instances? Perhaps 2-3 months after a release the developers and community could be organized into a one day bug review of the outstanding bugs for the release and evaluate/assign them properly.
For instance I currently see the following: 251 Open bugs for 10.0 683 Open bugs for 10.1 1224 Open bugs for 10.2
Well, I really don't understand this counter. For me, SUSE 10.2 is much more stable than 10.0 and 10.1 together, and less buggy overall. Single reason: The KDE is much more stable. I don't use the newer technologies, like Compiz/Beagle/ZEN/Rug/... for my serious work. So I propably don't notice any problems with them...
Wouldn't it be useful to review all those open bugs from the more recent releases and see if they should be updated to reflect the state of either the current release (10.2) or the factory (10.3), or possibly close them if they represent problems that are negligible in recent releases?
Surely the combined effort between the developers and community over the course of a day or two could clean out the bug lists and identify tasks that should genuinely be targeted for fixes.
Personally I would be willing to schedule a day or two toward such an activity that I think would improve the quality of defect management in opensuse.
I think that the Mozilla lightning/calendar project has the right idea with scheduled community/developer test days. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/2007/03/branch_sunbird_and_google_ca...
Thoughts?
Yes, I agree that Mozilla-style community bug-hunting days is a good idea :) !! -Alexey Eremenko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I think that the Mozilla lightning/calendar project has the right idea with scheduled community/developer test days. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/2007/03/branch_sunbird_and_google_ca...
Thoughts?
Not sure. A single bug day is more a formal than a productive action in my opinion. It might work for single applications, but for a big distribution as SUSE it risks not to produce the desired results. I think the current testing methods are not far from what is needed. Probably a stricter communication between developers, community and users is the most important thing to work on. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 12:20:35 Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Not sure. A single bug day is more a formal than a productive action in my opinion. It might work for single applications, but for a big distribution as SUSE it risks not to produce the desired results.
Mozilla, KDE, and Ubuntu (they also have bug days) are not small projects. Mozilla's bugtracker has had around 100,000 more bugs (more than 50% more, that is) reported in it than the Novell bugzilla has, just as an example. :) And, really, regardless of what you suggest, bug triaging days/weekends have _proven_ to be productive. Hundreds of bugs get closed, dealt with, addressed, and you get an in-general better cleanup. This makes it easier for devs and packagers to concentrate directly on what needs to be dealt with, too, what's outstanding, etc.
I think the current testing methods are not far from what is needed. Probably a stricter communication between developers, community and users is the most important thing to work on.
Agreed; especially if it is a chance for the community people to get directly involved. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Website: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno sab, 03/03/2007 alle 12.43 +0000, Francis Giannaros ha scritto:
And, really, regardless of what you suggest, bug triaging days/weekends have _proven_ to be productive. Hundreds of bugs get closed, dealt with, addressed, and you get an in-general better cleanup. This makes it easier for devs and packagers to concentrate directly on what needs to be dealt with, too, what's outstanding, etc.
I'm a bit critical about the _one_day_ bug testing because I think it's too short to examine the bugs of something complex like a distribution. Of course the success of these operations depends on how they're planned and managed. I personally prefer shorter meetings in multiple days than 24 hours meeting where everyone has to wait for the moment which interests him. But of course this is an opinion. The weekend, or multiple days if the weekend is taboo ;-), seems better to me because it would allow to more users to take part to the action and also it could allow to create themed sections like system/GNOME/KDE/Main apps and so. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:02, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I'm a bit critical about the _one_day_ bug testing because I think it's too short to examine the bugs of something complex like a distribution. ... I personally prefer shorter meetings in multiple days than 24 hours meeting where everyone has to wait for the moment which interests him. But of course this is an opinion.
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug. One day is good to start with action, then it will last as needed. There is often need for communication with upstream developers and that can't be accomplished in a day.
Of course the success of these operations depends on how they're planned and managed.
Planning the presence of bug owners that can give us instructions how to create test cases they are interested in, take look at the uploaded logs on bugzilla and give a feedback as well as what's next they want. This way it might be very productive. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rajko M. schreef:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:02, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I'm a bit critical about the _one_day_ bug testing because I think it's too short to examine the bugs of something complex like a distribution. ... I personally prefer shorter meetings in multiple days than 24 hours meeting where everyone has to wait for the moment which interests him. But of course this is an opinion.
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug.
One day is good to start with action, then it will last as needed. There is often need for communication with upstream developers and that can't be accomplished in a day.
Of course the success of these operations depends on how they're planned and managed.
Planning the presence of bug owners that can give us instructions how to create test cases they are interested in, take look at the uploaded logs on bugzilla and give a feedback as well as what's next they want. This way it might be very productive.
Good, logical thinking chap.. ;-) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6ZOsX5/X5X6LpDgRAiaOAJ0ZSUzPLXJ6ri0xljYrKU8I4XqtYgCeLlgK Z5REUMVfNWgAIXmTIiaXsks= =gvYf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Rajko M. wrote:
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug.
yes. and nobody prevent us opening a private chat if necessary
One day is good to start with action, then it will last as needed. There is often need for communication with upstream developers and that can't be accomplished in a day.
I whould prefere one week. comunication through bugzilla and mailing list is slow, as is bug testing if it needs restarting the computer...
Planning the presence of bug owners that can give us instructions how to create test cases they are interested in, take look at the uploaded logs on bugzilla and give a feedback as well as what's next they want. This way it might be very productive.
may be. Simply two or three people trying to reproduce the same bug should be nice. the main problem come from HW bugs that needs the same HW through testers. I have no AMD64, for example... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:29, jdd wrote:
Rajko M. wrote:
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug.
yes. and nobody prevent us opening a private chat if necessary
As long as it is bug related communication ;-) "Sorry I can't understand, last night we've got party, and ... I'll see ya tomorrow"
One day is good to start with action, then it will last as needed. There is often need for communication with upstream developers and that can't be accomplished in a day.
I whould prefere one week. comunication through bugzilla and mailing list is slow, as is bug testing if it needs restarting the computer...
One day, or any day, as moment to start. Later it can last more or leeser than a week.
Planning the presence of bug owners that can give us instructions how to create test cases they are interested in, take look at the uploaded logs on bugzilla and give a feedback as well as what's next they want. This way it might be very productive.
may be. Simply two or three people trying to reproduce the same bug should be nice. the main problem come from HW bugs that needs the same HW through testers. I have no AMD64, for example...
That is one of the points action style of bug triaging, to bring people togheather that can: - try different hardware, - bring different ideas what to do, - learn from each other. - find more on the Internet, and for sure other positive aspects. More I think, it seems that one bug at the time for each hardware platform, each SUSE/openSUSE would be the best choice to start with and then expand if appropriate. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
is there a way to tag some bug "to be tested by the users" (I don't know how to name the community excluding the Novell devs), so anybody could go in bugzilla and try himself, without being necessary to have a special day or week :-) I just browse part of the bug list. many bugs seems quite simple to identify (enh) or very difficult to handle by beta-tester (#165586) be obliged to read all the bug thread only to see one can't do anything is very counter-productive. as an example the quoted bug:#165586 is quoted critical, assigned (but not solved) and the last message is from 2006-05-19 08:34:40 MST. What does this mean? it's an obscure hwinfo problem no tester can solve... in fact there are bugs that come from the distro itself (yast... zen...) and bugs that come from an included app and that should be solved, if necessary, by the app maintainer. see 200177 - kontact/kmail crash on startup. so there definitively is a need to better bug classification... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef:
is there a way to tag some bug "to be tested by the users" (I don't know how to name the community excluding the Novell devs), so anybody could go in bugzilla and try himself, without being necessary to have a special day or week :-)
I just browse part of the bug list. many bugs seems quite simple to identify (enh) or very difficult to handle by beta-tester (#165586)
be obliged to read all the bug thread only to see one can't do anything is very counter-productive.
as an example the quoted bug:#165586 is quoted critical, assigned (but not solved) and the last message is from 2006-05-19 08:34:40 MST. What does this mean? it's an obscure hwinfo problem no tester can solve...
in fact there are bugs that come from the distro itself (yast... zen...) and bugs that come from an included app and that should be solved, if necessary, by the app maintainer. see 200177 - kontact/kmail crash on startup.
so there definitively is a need to better bug classification...
jdd
Definetely, there has to be reorganizing done at inventoring, as which bugs are related, to get 'chunks', which can be chewed up more easy... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6Z6bX5/X5X6LpDgRAraXAKC63vs6G6qnWvTtP/8Vocm6TNgcAQCfWZNn VP4jDdprTld/oxdLQytDyjQ= =QAfy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 15:22:21 Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:02, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I'm a bit critical about the _one_day_ bug testing because I think it's too short to examine the bugs of something complex like a distribution.
...
I personally prefer shorter meetings in multiple days than 24 hours meeting where everyone has to wait for the moment which interests him. But of course this is an opinion.
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug.
That's an argument against a meeting _time_, but not really against a meeting day. If it's a bug triage weekend (or any given couple of days), then different people can be on at different times. And particularly on a weekend, people's sleeping patterns vary quite a bit, so I don't think it's a problem. Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Website: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Francis Giannaros wrote:
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I think we agree on the fact, just discussing the how (personally I don't like IRC) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef:
Francis Giannaros wrote:
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I think we agree on the fact, just discussing the how (personally I don't like IRC)
jdd
That is a shame, because that would be the most simple... You can even open a channel for it.... - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6cOEX5/X5X6LpDgRAqqbAKCIXH696I7PstTW/wUzNdAL4ElCPwCgpTTv OHYoBcqQj+OH5dpH9lpfmxk= =LzcB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
M9. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
jdd schreef:
Francis Giannaros wrote:
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well. I think we agree on the fact, just discussing the how (personally I don't like IRC)
jdd
That is a shame, because that would be the most simple... You can even open a channel for it....
* I don't type fast enough to have a fluent conversation. * I like to think twice at what I say * it's very difficult to follow more than two conversations on the same chat, I don't like IRC so I don't use it and I'm not comfortable with the shortkeys and commands (for private chat, for example). I can't learn for only one occasion... * It's difficult to archive a chat for subsequent relation * anyway most bug tracking needs time * do you know nowaday phone is free between many countries (for example I can phone for free to USA or germany without computer), this I know :-) I often do phone call debugging :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Lucien Dodin, inventeur http://lucien.dodin.net/index.shtml --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 jdd schreef:
M9. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
jdd schreef:
Francis Giannaros wrote:
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well. I think we agree on the fact, just discussing the how (personally I don't like IRC)
jdd
That is a shame, because that would be the most simple... You can even open a channel for it....
* I don't type fast enough to have a fluent conversation. * I like to think twice at what I say * it's very difficult to follow more than two conversations on the same chat, I don't like IRC so I don't use it and I'm not comfortable with the shortkeys and commands (for private chat, for example). I can't learn for only one occasion... * It's difficult to archive a chat for subsequent relation * anyway most bug tracking needs time
* do you know nowaday phone is free between many countries (for example I can phone for free to USA or germany without computer), this I know :-) I often do phone call debugging :-)
jdd
You mean like skype or ekiga? An opinion based as yours, i would not want to change, i respect it. The way will be shown, i am sure off... I like people who are clear about things...(but this has nothing to do with the subject) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6/OGX5/X5X6LpDgRAqO+AJ0SQFKZC0gShkO17EB3qipFeFbuuACeNujK iUZI70cpevH4N5LT4xl5v6E= =GqCn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 11:59, Francis Giannaros wrote:
That's an argument against a meeting _time_, but not really against a meeting day. If it's a bug triage weekend (or any given couple of days), then different people can be on at different times. And particularly on a weekend, people's sleeping patterns vary quite a bit, so I don't think it's a problem.
The IRC can be used as additional medium for fast exchange of thoughts and instant feedback, but take in consideration that the whole process can be very slow, at the times. Than if one is not present at right time it will miss discussion. I would rather combine email and IRC as appropriate, than to insist on one medium.
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I can see reasons why it works well and that is why I support the idea. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno sab, 03/03/2007 alle 12.31 -0600, Rajko M. ha scritto:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 11:59, Francis Giannaros wrote:
That's an argument against a meeting _time_, but not really against a meeting day. If it's a bug triage weekend (or any given couple of days), then different people can be on at different times. And particularly on a weekend, people's sleeping patterns vary quite a bit, so I don't think it's a problem.
The IRC can be used as additional medium for fast exchange of thoughts and instant feedback, but take in consideration that the whole process can be very slow, at the times. Than if one is not present at right time it will miss discussion. I would rather combine email and IRC as appropriate, than to insist on one medium.
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I can see reasons why it works well and that is why I support the idea.
I agree with Francis on this. The interaction is a lot faster, more helpful and also less frustrating on IRC than using ML and e-mails. Just an example: I don't want to wait for 15 minutes to get an answer when on IRC I can have direct interaction with the other users I'm working with. Moreover, doing testing days using ML/e-mail would just reduce their effectiveness in my opinion. They would become just a sort of extensions of what we are already doing through bugzilla/opensuse-factory. Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 03 March 2007 12:39, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
Il giorno sab, 03/03/2007 alle 12.31 -0600, Rajko M. ha scritto:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 11:59, Francis Giannaros wrote:
That's an argument against a meeting _time_, but not really against a meeting day. If it's a bug triage weekend (or any given couple of days), then different people can be on at different times. And particularly on a weekend, people's sleeping patterns vary quite a bit, so I don't think it's a problem.
The IRC can be used as additional medium for fast exchange of thoughts and instant feedback, but take in consideration that the whole process can be very slow, at the times. Than if one is not present at right time it will miss discussion. I would rather combine email and IRC as appropriate, than to insist on one medium.
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I can see reasons why it works well and that is why I support the idea.
I agree with Francis on this. The interaction is a lot faster, more helpful and also less frustrating on IRC than using ML and e-mails.
Just an example: I don't want to wait for 15 minutes to get an answer when on IRC I can have direct interaction with the other users I'm working with.
Moreover, doing testing days using ML/e-mail would just reduce their effectiveness in my opinion. They would become just a sort of extensions of what we are already doing through bugzilla/opensuse-factory.
Well, both is an extension, just one is fine for fast responses, and the other allows more asynchronous work that will group more people that might be not familiar with bugzilla and/or IRC, can't attend at the times that are scheduled, but still can help. Sorting out to one medium will do just opposite from what is wanted. I can use IRC in the most basic form. That and time constrains will prevent me from attending antibug fest. What is the best can be decided on the run. I don't see the need to insist on one communication channel that fits for some purposes, and not for the other. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-03-03 at 13:05 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Well, both is an extension, just one is fine for fast responses, and the other allows more asynchronous work that will group more people that might be not familiar with bugzilla and/or IRC, can't attend at the times that are scheduled, but still can help. Sorting out to one medium will do just opposite from what is wanted.
I can use IRC in the most basic form. That and time constrains will prevent me from attending antibug fest.
What is the best can be decided on the run. I don't see the need to insist on one communication channel that fits for some purposes, and not for the other.
I agree with you and jdd: I just have never used IRC and I don't like it. I'm biased because till recently I did not have a permanent network connection, so irc was out of the question. Also, what I write I do slowly and thoughtfully, I can't correspond usefully on chat: I go back, read what I have just wrote and correct it. I suppose many non English speakers would think similarly. Also, I understand others will prefer chat: so let's have more than one method. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF62kOtTMYHG2NR9URArOHAJ9KdlLQpx09TuDiqcdFlLa5+hvjsQCgl0bP s0FSO8p5hxsCKOnsE8/Krdg= =xeVf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
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The Saturday 2007-03-03 at 13:05 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Well, both is an extension, just one is fine for fast responses, and the other allows more asynchronous work that will group more people that might be not familiar with bugzilla and/or IRC, can't attend at the times that are scheduled, but still can help. Sorting out to one medium will do just opposite from what is wanted.
I can use IRC in the most basic form. That and time constrains will prevent me from attending antibug fest.
What is the best can be decided on the run. I don't see the need to insist on one communication channel that fits for some purposes, and not for the other.
I agree with you and jdd: I just have never used IRC and I don't like it. I'm biased because till recently I did not have a permanent network connection, so irc was out of the question. Also, what I write I do slowly and thoughtfully, I can't correspond usefully on chat: I go back, read what I have just wrote and correct it.
I suppose many non English speakers would think similarly.
Also, I understand others will prefer chat: so let's have more than one method.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
As an English speaker, I never have liked IRC either, it along with Mobile texting remind me too much of the old clattering Reed Teletype machines of a bygone age, they were old hat from the day they were invented and worse still, built and shipped. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 04 March 2007 21:31, Sid Boyce wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Saturday 2007-03-03 at 13:05 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
Well, both is an extension, just one is fine for fast responses, and the other allows more asynchronous work that will group more people that might be not familiar with bugzilla and/or IRC, can't attend at the times that are scheduled, but still can help. Sorting out to one medium will do just opposite from what is wanted.
I can use IRC in the most basic form. That and time constrains will prevent me from attending antibug fest.
What is the best can be decided on the run. I don't see the need to insist on one communication channel that fits for some purposes, and not for the other.
I agree with you and jdd: I just have never used IRC and I don't like it. I'm biased because till recently I did not have a permanent network connection, so irc was out of the question. Also, what I write I do slowly and thoughtfully, I can't correspond usefully on chat: I go back, read what I have just wrote and correct it.
I suppose many non English speakers would think similarly.
Also, I understand others will prefer chat: so let's have more than one method.
- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R.
As an English speaker, I never have liked IRC either, it along with Mobile texting remind me too much of the old clattering Reed Teletype machines of a bygone age, they were old hat from the day they were invented and worse still, built and shipped. Regards Sid.
After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: - One has to pick up pieces of conversation that belong to him in a mess on the screen which takes attention from the content. This is good suited for chat, but not for serious work. - Once something is gone from the screen it can be found in the logs, which in effect lowers average speed substantially. Old messages are not important in a chat, so this doesn't make a problem, but in bug solving effort it will make problems. - Time zones exist and it is another reason against IRC - I have to learn how to use it efficiently, starting with command set, and previous resons don't help me to see why. There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla. Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 22:21 -0600, Rajko M. wrote:
After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons:
...
There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla.
Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience.
Plus, email is faster than bugzilla, and doesn't need a (semi)permanent network connection. Those people paying per minute or per kilobyte can make better use of email than any web based approach, or chat. An alternative, would be a private news server (with auth). Novell site has one, if I remember correctly. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/0GtTMYHG2NR9URAj0EAJ4mY/QuGC1s2MWf/tq2M18IrshD8gCbBanq A36USDT3HFWrBSWrGrC15T8= =47yO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 05 March 2007 05:20, Carlos E. R. wrote:
An alternative, would be a private news server (with auth). Novell site has one, if I remember correctly.
Yes. It is news://support-forums.novell.com for instance, group news://support-forums.novell.com/opensuse.org.suse-linux.support.development-build might be good place. It is almost unused, so no one will be bugged with people that will come and discuss bugs. It is single server so it will act fast, just as IRC. News server will keep messages so it is possible to see development from any computer. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 04 March 2007 21:31, Sid Boyce wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote: [...]
I agree with you and jdd: I just have never used IRC and I don't like it. I'm biased because till recently I did not have a permanent network connection, so irc was out of the question. Also, what I write I do slowly and thoughtfully, I can't correspond usefully on chat: I go back, read what I have just wrote and correct it.
IRC is more like talking. How slow do you talk ?
I suppose many non English speakers would think similarly.
I am and I totally disagree ;P
Also, I understand others will prefer chat: so let's have more than one method.
More than one method to synchronize efforts ?
As an English speaker, I never have liked IRC either, it along with Mobile texting remind me too much of the old clattering Reed Teletype machines of a bygone age, they were old hat from the day they were invented and worse still, built and shipped.
Obviously you haven't used IRC often either ;)
After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: - One has to pick up pieces of conversation that belong to him in a mess on the screen which takes attention from the content. This is good suited for chat, but not for serious work.
Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately.
- Once something is gone from the screen it can be found in the logs, which in effect lowers average speed substantially. Old messages are not important in a chat, so this doesn't make a problem, but in bug solving effort it will make problems.
The point is to act on one item at a time. It's about being interactive, immediate, to get the right people into the channel and get the work done.
- Time zones exist and it is another reason against IRC
Yes but that's exactly the reasons for the deficiency of emails for certain use cases. You send a mail, you get a reply 8 hours later while you're sleeping, in the morning you reply, and 2 days later someone sends a much better solution or opinion.
- I have to learn how to use it efficiently, starting with command set, and previous reasons don't help me to see why.
You just have to type the text. No special command set to know unless you're a channel operator.
There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla.
Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience.
But maybe the point about the triage is precisely to get it done quickly, not spend weeks to discuss it -- exactly as on bugzilla or using emails. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF7Jkzr3NMWliFcXcRAu8rAKC74BQGQMpfMT6ug2rkfZNwwruS0wCgp7wE NKq/GPuZ0A22bj4/qTn7rwQ= =fEKJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 23:27 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately.
If both people are sitting at their computers, both email or chat (or news or whatever) arrive instantly. The point of non chat methods is precissely to facilitate people with diferent timetables to participate. However, if the needed people for a certain task are available at the same time, by all means, use chat, or telephone, or video conference: whatever. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7K6OtTMYHG2NR9URAqJGAJ4pmBYDwpWmGcVr8ZAyyriwC0AztgCfVGjS OhTMXNYhLwV/NaFLtSYmICM= =5VDr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 05 March 2007 16:27, Pascal Bleser wrote:
Rajko M. wrote: ...
After all posts about IRC, I decided to make a list of my reasons: - One has to pick up pieces of conversation that belong to him in a mess on the screen which takes attention from the content. This is good suited for chat, but not for serious work.
Wrong. That's extremely efficient at getting serious work done because it's interactive and you don't have to wait a day before getting a reply as with emails. You can get it immediately.
Efficient if: 1) you have all involved people present. 2) problem is not complex ie. doesn't need lengthy preparation, 3) troubleshooting process has complex structure where next step depends on results of previous, and description of all branches is impractical. Though, my point was about screen that is not easy to read, and that will diminish efficiency in any case. Luckilly that alone doesn't make a total, so I can agree that they are efficient in some cases.
- Once something is gone from the screen it can be found in the logs, which in effect lowers average speed substantially. Old messages are not important in a chat, so this doesn't make a problem, but in bug solving effort it will make problems.
The point is to act on one item at a time. It's about being interactive, immediate, to get the right people into the channel and get the work done.
It is still problem as discussion can be longer, and important info can fly off the screen. My guess is that it doesn't happen often, so one can have time to search in session logs if necessary.
- Time zones exist and it is another reason against IRC
Yes but that's exactly the reasons for the deficiency of emails for certain use cases. You send a mail, you get a reply 8 hours later while you're sleeping, in the morning you reply, and 2 days later someone sends a much better solution or opinion.
IRC will never give a chance to one that really has advice to read about your problem and send message 2 days later. This actually confirms that email or newsgroups have essential advantage in this respect.
- I have to learn how to use it efficiently, starting with command set, and previous reasons don't help me to see why.
You just have to type the text. No special command set to know unless you're a channel operator.
I tried that on single status meeting that I was able to attend as I was on vacation, and until I type my comment/question, there is few lines between. Not good. Go back and try to type the name to whom you talk. In the meantime there is even more lines between.
There was a comment that email will be essentially repeating what is done on bugzilla.
Yes, it will be, but using medium where threading is supported which will give us easy way to see who is replying to what, which thread goes in right direction. Bugzilla messages are not intended for discussions, and reading beyond first few posts becomes quite annoying experience.
But maybe the point about the triage is precisely to get it done quickly, not spend weeks to discuss it -- exactly as on bugzilla or using emails.
Quickly will not help if it is not prepared. I can't be tricked with status meetings where people come prepared for questions in agenda. If similar will be applied to bug smash fest, than it will be efficient. It means that bugs has to be sorted by hardware and software categories and than published as a preparation for the event making possible to prepare yourself for the event. On the user side it would be advantage to have hardware and software data about computer collected in the same fashion as it is presented on the list, so that people can find what bugs they can help with. This of course can be completely automated trough one script that will collect data, compare to downloaded list of existing bugs, and produce list of bugs that one can help with. -- Regards, Rajko. http://en.opensuse.org/Portal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, 3 Mar 2007, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 15:22:21 Rajko M. wrote:
On Saturday 03 March 2007 09:02, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I'm a bit critical about the _one_day_ bug testing because I think it's too short to examine the bugs of something complex like a distribution.
While IRC meetings are cooncentrated they exclude all people that are not in right time zone. With present number of active users that is not good. I would prefer one thread on this list that will announce start of triage and than separate threads for each bug.
That's an argument against a meeting _time_, but not really against a meeting day. If it's a bug triage weekend (or any given couple of days), then different people can be on at different times. And particularly on a weekend, people's sleeping patterns vary quite a bit, so I don't think it's a problem.
Like I said though anyway, this is a tried, tested and proven method: many other projects have these, and they work tremendously well.
I like the idea, but I think it should spread over a couple days. Say a 48 hour period. Maybe a summary to the list. I have done projects via email where IRC did not seem to be possible. Good Luck, -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
I think that the Mozilla lightning/calendar project has the right idea with scheduled community/developer test days. http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/calendar/2007/03/branch_sunbird_and_google_ca...
Thoughts?
Not sure. A single bug day is more a formal than a productive action in my opinion. It might work for single applications, but for a big distribution as SUSE it risks not to produce the desired results.
I think the current testing methods are not far from what is needed. Probably a stricter communication between developers, community and users is the most important thing to work on.
The solution for a better GNOME on SUSE is probably rather: - - make the GNOME devs @Novell use openSUSE 10.2 or 10.3 alpha etc... - - put more manpower into packaging/fixing GNOME on openSUSE Eating your own dogfood is rule #1 and I really wonder what the GNOME devs @Novell are using on their workstations... if it's SLED then why the heck have the improvements made in SLED not made their way into openSUSE ? cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ <pascal.bleser@skynet.be> <guru@unixtech.be> _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF6YSSr3NMWliFcXcRAkHUAJ9ou3uavP87vQORPcWSnd3WE8NBvwCcCUL5 vMCb9/kopKqENXsV0nPEt3M= =AWXb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2007-03-03 at 15:22 +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:
The solution for a better GNOME on SUSE is probably rather: - make the GNOME devs @Novell use openSUSE 10.2 or 10.3 alpha etc... - put more manpower into packaging/fixing GNOME on openSUSE
Yes!!!
Eating your own dogfood is rule #1 and I really wonder what the GNOME devs @Novell are using on their workstations... if it's SLED then why the heck have the improvements made in SLED not made their way into openSUSE ?
Right. Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF62tstTMYHG2NR9URAiipAKCWQSR5wvQM+GvRMZMES3eq7vLiOwCfQQ6m WnZ2XGfTFv6+jjTUg1oqjeU= =qImV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so.
The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software. So be glad things don't stop changing. Change is life. That old saying, "Nature abhors a vacuum," is uterrly bogus. Almost all of the universe is a vacuum (quantum fluctuations notwithstanding). What nature truly does not abide is stasis--right down to the quantum vacuum! Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so.
The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software.
I know - didn't you notice the '"'? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/jltTMYHG2NR9URArSpAKCJdo9Ool0FxflxLScisErAzzH9WgCglOO1 WaQ4YBkzQD2mlHkSklBfQgw= =eD8W -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef:
The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so. The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software.
I know - didn't you notice the '"'?
Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today... Who's stopping who from solving bugs? But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion. Also, which bugs have returned from 'being solved', and which ones are realy solved? So there has to be asked for info from the reporter, (i 've seen this suggestion in this thread allready..) but this has to be done, to know if the work is still nessesary... And how to 'organise' bugzilla, to 'group' similar bugs, or to which part of the system they belong? (if that would be wise or nessesary..) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF6/9JX5/X5X6LpDgRAo8KAJ9qLJVNhIZPVn8nWu0uZLoctNG7uQCfem9r SJeKAlEdRZUQa+oLoUWHP3U= =FowM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 12:30 +0100, M9. wrote:
Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today...
Who's stopping who from solving bugs?
Pressure for new features is one reason, IMO.
But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion.
There should be a person that goes around checking the bugzilla list, full time, taking decissions, asigning bugs, checking after some time same bugs, asking the developper, asking the reporter, etc. I suppose they do have such a dedicated person at Novell, but I have reported bugs for which I got no comment at all after weeks... so I very much doubt they do have him/her. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7AfftTMYHG2NR9URAgd+AJ9WZxvJe9MbQWPanyFKjqH/ucIkfQCeNFMO B+E0ynW2xIeK7yrV2AATYNM= =L6Jx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Carlos E. R. schreef:
The Monday 2007-03-05 at 12:30 +0100, M9. wrote:
Not that it matters, but yes i agree to the opinion: Never postpone untill tomorrow, what you can get done by someone else today...
Who's stopping who from solving bugs?
Pressure for new features is one reason, IMO.
Might be possible
But, who or what decides which bugs are the most important? Bugs that are realy annoying, because they are so frequent that you have to workaround them every day, should have been solved first, is my opinion.
There should be a person that goes around checking the bugzilla list, full time, taking decissions, asigning bugs, checking after some time same bugs, asking the developper, asking the reporter, etc. I suppose they do have such a dedicated person at Novell, but I have reported bugs for which I got no comment at all after weeks... so I very much doubt they do have him/her.
At least not for that task on the payrole.....if so, i would fire,...or put some gentile pressure upon that person.. ;-) Maybe someone would do it voluntarily, it looks as a womans job to me, (as i remember, women are allways better with these kind of things) some kind of secretaresse, attending this, selfrespecting software company's utmost important job. But there might be men who are qualified to do this... (for little money, and many kind words?) At least, we agree, that the 'bugzilla' should be 'organised' Who feels him/herself 'called' to do this nessesary, and responsible job? (or we might point out a volunteer? (Asterix le gaulois)) - -- Have a nice day, M9. Now, is the only time that exists. OS: Linux 2.6.18.2-34-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: monkey9@tribal-sfn2 Systeem: openSUSE 10.2 (X86-64) KDE: 3.5.5 "release 45.2" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFF7AycX5/X5X6LpDgRAoD7AKCGRqkOCHQgPuVfZQSpOt7PV8TCrgCgu5G4 ejVMqW8D/pzO4qbm80cs7Jk= =tu/7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 05 March 2007 03:02, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2007-03-04 at 18:13 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Sunday 04 March 2007 16:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
Frankly, I would prefer bugs being solved rather than adding new features. As it is now, things are expected to be solved on the next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so.
The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software.
I know - didn't you notice the '"'?
It sounded like you thought that was a bad thing. RRS --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 07:03 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so.
The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software.
I know - didn't you notice the '"'?
It sounded like you thought that was a bad thing.
Mixed feelings. I want no bugs, and I want new features. Therefore, I would prefer bugs being cleared before commencing work on new features... at least, having left only negligible bugs that do not impede working with the affected program. IMO, I consider a program to be finished when it has no bugs left. Adding new features is like a new project. I know programmers never consider a program finished. I programmed for a living, so I know that... but that is not necesarily a good thing. Are houses ever finished? They are, but they are also periodically improved and enhanced and modified. You know, programming is the only profession where errors are called bugs and accepted as normal. So a bridge collapsing is normal, too? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7Df7tTMYHG2NR9URAq1NAKCGz9YcuMoHefMTYVwEx2L1vXiScwCfZgQj CmOiVw1qsHmmjEc8EnfW6MU= =liQb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos, On Monday 05 March 2007 07:32, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Monday 2007-03-05 at 07:03 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
next suse release... which adds new bugs, so we never are "finished", not even nearly so.
The only software that's finished is software that's dead. No one's job is more interminable than that of the author of successful software.
I know - didn't you notice the '"'?
It sounded like you thought that was a bad thing.
Mixed feelings.
I want no bugs, and I want new features. Therefore, I would prefer bugs being cleared before commencing work on new features... at least, having left only negligible bugs that do not impede working with the affected program.
That is unrealistic. Fixing bugs alone does not add sufficient value (in most circumstances) to justify the effort required. (The don't call economics the dismal science for nothing.) Of course, there are fields where errors are far more costly: Avionics, medical diagnostic and therapeutic devices, spacecraft, etc. In those areas, the requisite effort is devoted to drive errors down to rates acceptable in those applications. But even then, no one expects zero defects. They want zero defects. They strive for zero defects, but they do not wait for zero defects to field the technologies. Nor could they. Many defects are manifest only in actual operational contexts.
IMO, I consider a program to be finished when it has no bugs left. Adding new features is like a new project.
That, too, is an unrealistic view. Incremental development is a cornerstone of sound software engineering. The monolithic approach is unsustainable, as experience has already shown us.
I know programmers never consider a program finished. I programmed for a living, so I know that... but that is not necesarily a good thing. Are houses ever finished? They are, but they are also periodically improved and enhanced and modified.
Whether it's a good thing or not is moot. I consider it a curse, personally, but I love programming and software design, so it's something I live with. And it's something the field continues to devise better ways to cope with.
You know, programming is the only profession where errors are called bugs and accepted as normal. So a bridge collapsing is normal, too?
The simple fact of the matter is that with the programming technologies we have to work with today, bugs fundamentally cannot be eliminated. We cannot even prove that bugs are not there. At best, we can demonstrate that they do exist. Resource-constrained development as well as the intrinsic nature of information processing forces tradeoffs between addressing bugs, improving performance and adding capabilities. And yes, structural failures have always happened and will continue to happen. The fields of civil and mechanical engineering are very mature with professional certification required to practice, and yet failures continue to occur. The only way to eliminate bugs and failures is to cease to increase our ambitions. Then we can just sit around polishing and maintaining what we already have. Take your pick. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 09:09 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
You know, programming is the only profession where errors are called bugs and accepted as normal. So a bridge collapsing is normal, too?
The simple fact of the matter is that with the programming technologies we have to work with today, bugs fundamentally cannot be eliminated. We cannot even prove that bugs are not there. At best, we can demonstrate that they do exist. Resource-constrained development as well as the intrinsic nature of information processing forces tradeoffs between addressing bugs, improving performance and adding capabilities.
There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7GcFtTMYHG2NR9URAmkRAJ0RDPBq9fZhBXMYPTDSLD+DY+bPjACghWn7 0aBevYqKmcEvJZ155wNyzdw= =FDnc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 05 March 2007 10:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code.
I don't believe them. Unless the code is extremely simple. No matter how much you test, you cannot validly claim there are no bugs. Only that the bugs you tested for are not manifest under those tests. Randall Schulz --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 11:35 -0800, Randall R Schulz wrote:
On Monday 05 March 2007 10:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
There are some companies around producing bugless code. They spend like two years designing, and only about 6 month coding. It is indeed possible. Of course, they charge a lot for that class of code.
I don't believe them. Unless the code is extremely simple. No matter how much you test, you cannot validly claim there are no bugs. Only that the bugs you tested for are not manifest under those tests.
You don't believe an IEEE report? It was published on one of their magazines, the Spectrum, I think, not over two years ago. I might still have it around somewhere. They don't rely on testing to get it done: it is correct by design. They don't write a single line of code till it is fully designed, and I mean fully. And not simple software, nor cheap, either. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7LFJtTMYHG2NR9URArq1AJ4vfL4k3pEmnloMTRa9/DEZLXcrFwCdGE9V mT20dKpzZ3gHjtrdZFblwVk= =d/bY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Friday 02 March 2007 22:15:26 Marcus Meissner wrote:
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons.
Perhaps this is a complaint, then (like a few others we get around), that not enough time is left for openSUSE GNOME? Perhaps the balance could be revisited, since quite a few people have issues with this, it seems to me. Kind thoughts, -- Francis Giannaros Website: http://francis.giannaros.org IRC: apokryphos on irc.freenode.net --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 08:28:56AM +0000, Francis Giannaros wrote:
On Friday 02 March 2007 22:15:26 Marcus Meissner wrote:
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons.
Perhaps this is a complaint, then (like a few others we get around), that not enough time is left for openSUSE GNOME? Perhaps the balance could be revisited, since quite a few people have issues with this, it seems to me.
See JPRs recent mail. Btw, someone mentioned opensuseupdater... It will get a gtkupdate applet in 10.3 too. (opensuseupdater in general is just a very small program, wrapper around zypp-checkpatches (for checking) kdesu yast2 online_update (for update) kdesu yast2 inst_source (for config) creating a GLADE style GTK applet doing the same should not be that hard.) Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Perhaps this is a complaint, then (like a few others we get around), that not enough time is left for openSUSE GNOME?
Watch this space. -- James Ogley james@usr-local-bin.org http://usr-local-bin.org GNOME for openSUSE: http://software.opensuse.org/download/GNOME:/ Help end poverty: http://oxfam.org.uk/in --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-03-02 at 23:15 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
...
Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME.
And WHY NOT? KDE apps work in GNOME, GNOME apps work in KDE.
I use GIMP regulary. I use Firefox occasionaly. Under KDE.
I use both gnome and kde, and apps from one in the other: for instance, konqueror or kbabel or amarok in gnome, gimp or firefox anywehere. Why not? ...
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons.
IMO, the kde croud seems to be very vociferous when they think SUSE is tilting just a triffle to gnome. There are also many SuSE users, like me, that like gnome: we just keep quiet ;-) So, please, keep the good work done with KDE, but also do not forget Gnome and try to make it be buggless. Even if it is not "shiny", we would very much like it to at least work, without _big_ bugs. For instance, a forthnight ago I reported #246956 and it hasn't even been asigned to anybody (gconf using the wrong user: seems important to me). About a year ago I reported #169993, and it seems to be solved in 10.3, I've been told; but seemly there was no activity for a long time till I reported it again fo 10.2 as #248097. Tonight I reported #251129... I hope to hear something about it before version 11.5 ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF614ntTMYHG2NR9URAjQKAJ4hvvgrvVHfhTiEDwldVSzWzsFprQCffH3V bVD2KqsK7wgoxmx1MsllB6Y= =70Cb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The Friday 2007-03-02 at 23:15 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 10:52:25PM +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
...
Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME. And WHY NOT? KDE apps work in GNOME, GNOME apps work in KDE.
I use GIMP regulary. I use Firefox occasionaly. Under KDE.
I use both gnome and kde, and apps from one in the other: for instance, konqueror or kbabel or amarok in gnome, gimp or firefox anywehere. Why not?
Well said so far and I'm in total agreement.
...
The problem in general is that our GNOME developers work more on the enterprise desktop , while the KDE guys work more on the openSUSE snapshots, for above reasons.
IMO, the kde croud seems to be very vociferous when they think SUSE is tilting just a triffle to gnome. There are also many SuSE users, like me, that like gnome: we just keep quiet ;-)
So, please, keep the good work done with KDE, but also do not forget Gnome and try to make it be buggless. Even if it is not "shiny", we would very much like it to at least work, without _big_ bugs.
The use of KDE was the main reason I was attracted away from Redhat and that gawd awful CDE that graces Sun to this day. The main reason I'd be driven away from openSUSE would be the jettisoning of KDE - assurances have been given, but the push to do so is often voiced. The problem I personally have with a Gnome desktop is on two fronts. 1. It's too foreign and restrictive/prescriptive when you're used to KDE - there was a time when Gnome on SuSE was almost verboten. It may be just the ticket for anyone recently coming from Windows. 2. Try updating a Gnome app and you run into horrendous dependency problems - doesn't apply to people who install and don't need to touch. There are many Gnome apps I like and run, so I install and update both Gnome and KDE as updates become available, but I largely don't get adventurous with Gnome. I wish both to progress and succeed, but just keep giving us the choice. Hobson's choice is not for us old fogies for whom SuSE (however you write it) is synonymous with KDE - Flexibility, configurability and easy to build for. looks like that's more than just two fronts when broken down. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 04:05 -0000, Sid Boyce wrote:
So, please, keep the good work done with KDE, but also do not forget Gnome and try to make it be buggless. Even if it is not "shiny", we would very much like it to at least work, without _big_ bugs.
The use of KDE was the main reason I was attracted away from Redhat and that gawd awful CDE that graces Sun to this day. The main reason I'd be driven away from openSUSE would be the jettisoning of KDE - assurances have been given, but the push to do so is often voiced. The problem I personally have with a Gnome desktop is on two fronts. 1. It's too foreign and restrictive/prescriptive when you're used to KDE - there was a time when Gnome on SuSE was almost verboten. It may be just the ticket for anyone recently coming from Windows. 2. Try updating a Gnome app and you run into horrendous dependency problems - doesn't apply to people who install and don't need to touch.
Please... I'm not trying to convince anybody to use gnome instead of kde. Not so! Linux is about freedom, and freedom of choice is an important freedom. You prefer kde? Fine, perfect! You don't need to convince me, I like it. But I also like gnome, and I want it to be taken care off - both of them. That there is more effort shown into kde? Fine! But please, do not forget gnome. I have no fear at all of SuSE going all over to gnome. That's kind of fud spread by the kde crowd :-P and it's just not going to happen. Why do I like gnome? Less clutter, less gadgetry :-P Updating gnome tools? I do it myself, I have compiled several gnome apps with no problem. In fact, I have more problems compiling and installing kde apps :-p
There are many Gnome apps I like and run, so I install and update both Gnome and KDE as updates become available, but I largely don't get adventurous with Gnome. I wish both to progress and succeed, but just keep giving us the choice. Hobson's choice is not for us old fogies for whom SuSE (however you write it) is synonymous with KDE - Flexibility, configurability and easy to build for. looks like that's more than just two fronts when broken down.
That's right, freedom of choice. There is no freedom if people tell gnome users to switch to another distro (some say so). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF6/uPtTMYHG2NR9URAm0dAJ9auVtScRoXWUEdE+1diBEzVy0sfwCdHZ6j QEijc4aIJ/FPba9dHzTcIdk= =b54m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno lun, 05/03/2007 alle 04.05 +0000, Sid Boyce ha scritto:
The use of KDE was the main reason I was attracted away from Redhat and that gawd awful CDE that graces Sun to this day. The main reason I'd be driven away from openSUSE would be the jettisoning of KDE - assurances have been given, but the push to do so is often voiced.
No one wants KDE out of OpenSUSE I think. It would mean to seriously damage the distribution itself. Many (if not all) users use a mixture of GNOME and KDE apps. So, don't worry :-) Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Den Monday 05 March 2007 14:49:15 skrev Alberto Passalacqua:
Many (if not all) users use a mixture of GNOME and KDE apps. So, don't worry :-)
Stop giving GNOME credit for Firefox, GIMP, Azureus, Xchat, Thunderbird etc. People use GTK-apps, noone uses true GNOME apps. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2007-03-05 at 17:32 +0100, Martin Schlander wrote:
People use GTK-apps, noone uses true GNOME apps.
Are you sure? I use a Gnome desktop. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFF7GdKtTMYHG2NR9URAmGjAJ4scnpFOF5+8LNbD7lrJQd1Wsm2QwCfRGQU 6mVBhonrBerAmYGo37HQb9Q= =2ONi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2007-03-02 at 22:52 +0100, Alberto Passalacqua wrote:
After quite a long time, I decided to do some considerations on the status of OpenSUSE as a community and as a distribution, starting from everyday experience.
I'll start from some bug reports, which affects me directly and which have been waiting for a solution for a long time since the release of 10.2 final. They're only examples, you can find many others on bugzilla.
* main-menu Hangs https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
* Banshee doesn't recognize ipod https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=215301
* yast is still unable to list printers https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=240727
* Gimp can't print: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=230887 which sends to bug #226710, which is not accessible.
The main menu bug is a blocker and it's really strange no-one in the development team noticed it during the development stage. A patch was recently released on bugzilla, but it only partially solves the problem for some user and does nothing for others, which indicates the issue is quite serious.
We suspect it might be related to the size or entries in ~/.recently-used and are continuing to look at it.
A final comment, to conclude this already long e-mail, is about the GNOME-KDE question (seriously, for once).
Gnome users (not only me, there are a few, but there are) are quite bored to see GNOME considered the de-facto second choice of the distribution because it is less tested than KDE and less maintained.
Now, I understand many developers at SUSE love KDE and that SUSE was a KDE based distribution. But in the past at least it was coherent: KDE was the default and SUSE was really optimised for KDE. It was so evident that GNOME appeared out of place, and it was OK. A user who chose SUSE knew it was a KDE distribution.
Today SUSE has no defaults, so a user thinks he can choose what he likes more, but it's not that way.
In openSUSE 10.2 it is so evident a lot of the efforts were put in creating a KDE which is better than GNOME. Examples are many: from the new kickoff menu, which was developed faster than the gnome main-menu and has none of the issues of the gnome one, to the opensuse-updater, which has no equivalent in GNOME (I know one is coming for 10.3).
Both DE should be considered as alternatives, not as rivals. I do myself this mistake, I know. But it's really annoying to read "Use KDE" or "Use a KDE app" when a user asks for help about GNOME.
Moreover GNOME is the default on SLED, and having a low quality GNOME on openSUSE doesn't help to give a good image to potential customers.
If things are going to stay as they are at the moment, I would really prefer a strong but clear decision to make openSUSE again a KDE based distribution instead of having a two-DE distribution only in appearance.
So, to be frank about this, the development group that includes GNOME work has not been very focused on openSUSE in the past, however we've been making a concerted effort to change this for 10.3. In the next couple of days I'll post info more widely that you already know Alberto about the opensuse GNOME mailing list and irc channel. That being said the same development group that manage GNOME has driven other general desktop technologies that have improved openSUSE substantially, such as Xgl/Compiz, NetworkManager, Beagle, so a lot of work has benefited openSUSE both for GNOME and KDE. -JP -- JP Rosevear <jpr@novell.com> Novell, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Il giorno ven, 02/03/2007 alle 18.26 -0500, JP Rosevear ha scritto:
So, to be frank about this, the development group that includes GNOME work has not been very focused on openSUSE in the past, however we've been making a concerted effort to change this for 10.3. In the next couple of days I'll post info more widely that you already know Alberto about the opensuse GNOME mailing list and irc channel.
Yes JP and I find these news very important both for openSUSE and GNOME. You should know my opinions too, and, as a consequence, that my considerations are not against the GNOME team, which actually did an extremely good work for SLED.
That being said the same development group that manage GNOME has driven other general desktop technologies that have improved openSUSE substantially, such as Xgl/Compiz, NetworkManager, Beagle, so a lot of work has benefited openSUSE both for GNOME and KDE.
I perfectly know and agree with you about the substantial improvements brought by these new technologies and by the GNOME team, and I think too many people is not considering them as they deserve. I also know the GNOME team is far from being inactive also at the moment. I wanted to do some considerations about how things are going and about what, in my opinion, might improve things to avoid major problems and user dissatisfaction in future releases. See you, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (17)
-
Alberto Passalacqua -
Alexey Eremenko -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Carlos E. R. -
Francis Giannaros -
James Ogley -
jdd -
JP Rosevear -
M9. -
Marcus Meissner -
Martin Schlander -
Pascal Bleser -
Rajko M. -
Randall R Schulz -
Richard Bos -
Sid Boyce -
Ted Bullock