On 2010-12-08 21:37:31 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

It will not be supported - even if it may work.

Why not? Is SUSE/Novell in need of money? :-/

you get charged for downloading 11.3 from a mirror? darix -- openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux openSUSE is good for you www.opensuse.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 9. Dezember 2010 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:

I clearly think that if we, as the openSUSE community, decide we want this to be a supported scenario we can (and should) make the decision. Gerald, you as openSUSE community - how many update bug reports do you work on?

Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 08:58:42AM +0800, Gerald Pfeifer wrote:

On Wed, 8 Dec 2010, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

...

In the past, we recommended to use the dup feature to upgrade from 11.2 to 11.3. I'm wondering whether it will be supported to upgrade directly from 11.2 to 11.4 and thus skipping one version (11.3)? It will not be supported - even if it may work.

Not supported by who?

IMHO "not supported" means "not tested" in this case. Cheers, Michael. -- Michael Schroeder mls@suse.de SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF Markus Rex, HRB 16746 AG Nuernberg main(_){while(_=~getchar())putchar(~_-1/(~(_|32)/13*2-11)*13);} -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-12-08 at 08:50 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

El 08/12/10 06:41, Karl Eichwalder escribió:

...

In the past, we recommended to use the dup feature to upgrade from 11.2 to 11.3. I'm wondering whether it will be supported to upgrade directly from 11.2 to 11.4 and thus skipping one version (11.3)?

It should work, but I doubt this scenario is a supported upgrade path.

As in: do not skip any releases in genera, or just in this case? I mean, i upgraded several 11.1 (dom-U) machines directly to 11.3 without any problem, while upgrading 11.2 dom-0 towards 11.3 resulted in unbootable systems, that had to be completely re-installed.... hw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, On Thu, 9 Dec 2010, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 00:44 +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

...

It should work, but I doubt this scenario is a supported upgrade path.

As in: do not skip any releases in genera, or just in this case?

I mean, i upgraded several 11.1 (dom-U) machines directly to 11.3 without any problem, while upgrading 11.2 dom-0 towards 11.3 resulted in unbootable systems, that had to be completely re-installed....

Just so.

It is very typical to not upgrade to every version. It was always a supported scenario, to upgrade from any of the currently supported versions to any of the currently supported versions.

Now, suddenly, this SuSE tradition is dropped.

We drop features.

We drop supported lifetime.

We drop supported scenarios.

Dunno, perhaps SUSE is dropping staff and the only solution is less support. Not enough money for everything.

Nothing gets dropped. Please don't blame any people here. Skipping a distribution, but anyways trying an update did always work and - i guess - will work in future too. The "official statements" about this were always like here and now - how else could they sound if someone is thinking he has to guarantee about something like that which he never thought of while doing the small steps of everyday professional work. But the "distribution quality" always did allow to try it, with a good chance of success (I only remember a fail while trying to upgrade SLES8 directly to SLES10, but that is a far wider step than the small one you are already getting officially crazy about before trying), and the distribution will stay at that quality, I'm sure. My latest positive experience was to upgrade from 10.0 to 10.3. Very smooth - I guess I only had to activate rpcbind by hand instead of portmap, and even the conversion lilo to grub succeeded without any need of intervention. Viele Gruesse Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Moenkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Goettingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Goettingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Prof. Dr. Oswald Haan und Dr. Paul Suren Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Dipl.-Kfm. Markus Hoppe Sitz der Gesellschaft: Goettingen Registergericht: Goettingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd writes:

Le 09/12/2010 03:24, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

never was, where do you see this? there are often changes in default applications, applications removed or applications added that of course can't be upgraded

This per se is not a problem.

upgrade is always at risk.

Yes, but if a "supported" (= tested) upgrade path fails, it is a bug that we want to fix. Thanks for all your feedback! -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 15:29 +0100, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

jdd <> writes:

...

upgrade is always at risk.

Yes, but if a "supported" (= tested) upgrade path fails, it is a bug that we want to fix.

Not every supported thing is fully tested, with all possible configurations and combinations of installed software. It is not possible. What we, as users, expect, is that if we report a failure something is done to repair it, whereas a non supported thing is "wontfixed" directly. It is typical that a version does not work on some machines, and upgrade is not possible to the next version. The problem is reported, and hopefully, it is solved in the following version. The user will expect then to be able to jump to that version when it comes. But no, now we are told "no". Cold shower.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Welcome :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk0Bfn0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UzXgCdFVyLde27bFl1jESiagKHu51+ deMAnis4dVMfCGDgIfvHupNeYkoeqxfR =6mcZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Fri 10 Dec 2010 02:17:47 AM CET schrieb Stephan Kleine :

The official policy always was that an upgrade from version x to version x+1 is supported but anything from x to x+<1 is not but it will normally work if you know what you are doing (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that).

That's the way it was (and is) with the "traditional" upgrade procedure (= system update). It is a little bit different with "zypper dup". "zypper dup" is inherently dangerous depending on the software that runs during the process. "zypper dup" is save if you log out all users during the process and keep running only these services that are needed during the upgrade. Karl -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Le 10/12/2010 07:43, Karl Eichwalder a écrit :

Probably. And usually it is worth a try to do the traditional upgrade procedure (do not forget to save your user data as said in the manual). If is fails, a new installation and restoring your data would be an option.

and you don't have any working install in the mean time... jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://pizzanetti.fr -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday December 10 2010 01:22:41 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 09:10 +0100, jdd wrote:

...

...

It was always a supported scenario,

never was, where do you see this?

The paper book that came with the box.

And that said an update from one supported version to another is supported? AFAIK only updates from x -> x+1 are "supported". The rest usually works pretty nicely if you know what you are doing. regards, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd writes:

Le 10/12/2010 01:22, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

The paper book that came with the box.

can you quote the exact wording?

All the books are also available on the installation media as regular software packages (opensuse-*_en, search for "documentation") and on http://www.novell.com/documentation/opensuse113/ -- Karl Eichwalder R&D / Documentation SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 03:24:52AM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 00:44 +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

...

It should work, but I doubt this scenario is a supported upgrade path.

As in: do not skip any releases in genera, or just in this case?

I mean, i upgraded several 11.1 (dom-U) machines directly to 11.3 without any problem, while upgrading 11.2 dom-0 towards 11.3 resulted in unbootable systems, that had to be completely re-installed....

Just so.

It is very typical to not upgrade to every version. It was always a supported scenario, to upgrade from any of the currently supported versions to any of the currently supported versions.

Never it was. And I'm using SUSE since quite some time. Thanks Eberhard btw again for the first floppy disks and later CDs. ;) Talk to people knowing what they talk about and stop fud'ing, please.

Now, suddenly, this SuSE tradition is dropped.

Dude, openSUSE is a community project. Show your commitment to test all these upgrade pathes and we're all happy to review your wiki document. Even a report, that it worked for you to move your 11.1 to 11.3 is a contribution. Look, moving from i586 to x86_64 worked for me on several systems very well. Nevertheless I'm quite sure we must not ever support this.

We drop features.

Sorry, please give me an example what you have decided to drop.

We drop supported lifetime.

I asked myself why we're not having some kind of Long Time Pain Program for _some_ openSUSE releases? And there was a recent blog from Wolfgang about this at http://www.rosenauer.org/blog/2010/11/30/community-powered-long-term-support... I'm supporting this approach for Samba as well as Jeff's suggestion of a rolling distribution. We're now doing more or less regular rolling releases for Samba versions in openSUSE _and_ SUSE Linux Enterprise for many, many years. We're offering current Samba version for a long time. First at ftp.suse.com and download.samba.org and nowadays at the openSUSE Build Service. See the network:samba: path and http://en.openSUSE.org/Samba We're not "officially" offering = supporting all Samba versions, but we're feeding all products with newer Samba version from time to time. And these version also are covered by full support if you need it and if you're willing to pay. Cf. http://en.opensuse.org/Samba/Versions_in_SUSE_products

We drop supported scenarios.

No. This is FUD.

Dunno, perhaps SUSE is dropping staff and the only solution is less support. Not enough money for everything.

No. FUD too. SUSE is staffing. Check the HR page if you're looking for a new opportunity. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: On Thursday, 2010-12-09 at 15:02 +0100, Lars Müller wrote:

On Thu, Dec 09, 2010 at 03:24:52AM +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Just so.

It is very typical to not upgrade to every version. It was always a supported scenario, to upgrade from any of the currently supported versions to any of the currently supported versions.

Never it was. And I'm using SUSE since quite some time. Thanks Eberhard btw again for the first floppy disks and later CDs. ;)

Me too.

Talk to people knowing what they talk about and stop fud'ing, please.

FUD? That's your opinion. Mine is different.

...

Now, suddenly, this SuSE tradition is dropped.

Dude, openSUSE is a community project. Show your commitment to test all these upgrade pathes and we're all happy to review your wiki document.

It is a business with a comunity project. And I contribute, you "dude". If it were really a community project decissions would be voted.

Even a report, that it worked for you to move your 11.1 to 11.3 is a contribution.

Which I do. Search, you will find it. I even have a VM on which I have tested several upgrade problems, then reverted the upgrade (snapshot).

Look, moving from i586 to x86_64 worked for me on several systems very well. Nevertheless I'm quite sure we must not ever support this.

And that is also a mistake, IMO.

...

We drop features.

Sorry, please give me an example what you have decided to drop.

Dozens. Let me see... Lilo? Not me, of course. I "voted" against, as far as non staff comunity contributor word is taken into account. Ie, not at all.

...

We drop supported lifetime.

I asked myself why we're not having some kind of Long Time Pain Program for _some_ openSUSE releases? And there was a recent blog from Wolfgang about this at http://www.rosenauer.org/blog/2010/11/30/community-powered-long-term-support...

I know about that.

...

We drop supported scenarios.

No. This is FUD.

No, it is the truth.

...

Dunno, perhaps SUSE is dropping staff and the only solution is less support. Not enough money for everything.

No. FUD too. SUSE is staffing. Check the HR page if you're looking for a new opportunity.

Then your productivity is dropping. Or you add features on one side and remove on another, to compensate. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAk0BeKUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XsMgCffYzM8su8PKRr2hOiC4s7FBvw ffkAniZwoRt1F+423lT4MsqXGZxgfUIJ =f2sD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----