[opensuse-factory] RFC: What should be on the DVD and what's fine online only?
Hi, As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD. I made a quick hack and removed qt4 documentation, which is also impressive 90MB. Werner says that texlive upstream doesn't see the problem and doesn't provide a good way to split (it's own distribution is a DVD or 2 CDs). And there is our problem: With every release it eats more and more of the openSUSE DVDs and I'm afraid it exceeded a sane limit - as it's far from mainstream I would remove it. I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages. To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size: 266M noarch/texlive-2008-5.1.noarch.rpm 83M noarch/libqt4-devel-doc-data-4.5.1-1.1.noarch.rpm 72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm 32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm 27M x86_64/java-1_6_0-openjdk-1.6.0.0_b16-1.2.x86_64.rpm 26M noarch/opensuse-manual_de-11.1-2.21.noarch.rpm 25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm 25M noarch/efont-unicode-0.4.2-215.37.noarch.rpm 25M noarch/OpenOffice_org-templates-presentation-layouts-3.0-1.78.noarch.rpm 24M noarch/xorg-x11-fonts-7.4-1.79.noarch.rpm 23M x86_64/kdebase4-workspace-4.2.85-1.3.x86_64.rpm 22M noarch/CID-keyed-fonts-MOE-20021114-339.17.noarch.rpm 21M noarch/opensuse-manual_en-11.1-29.17.noarch.rpm 20M x86_64/frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1-1.46.x86_64.rpm 20M noarch/xemacs-packages-20070427-155.76.noarch.rpm 19M noarch/OpenOffice_org-icon-themes-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 19M x86_64/samba-client-3.3.4-1.1.x86_64.rpm 18M noarch/OpenOffice_org-help-ja-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 18M noarch/kde4-l10n-sv-doc-4.2.85-1.1.noarch.rpm I now removed the second largest package so it fits for the moment, but I don't feel that's justified. But perhaps I'm wrong. So let's discuss what the DVDs should be optimized for. Greetings, Stephan P.S. If you want to discuss packages that are currently not on DVD and should be there, feel free to do so if you start your post with "XX should go" as long as XX is part of the above list. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow wrote:
As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD.
I made a quick hack and removed qt4 documentation, which is also impressive 90MB. Werner says that texlive upstream doesn't see the problem and doesn't provide a good way to split (it's own distribution is a DVD or 2 CDs). And there is our problem: With every release it eats more and more of the openSUSE DVDs and I'm afraid it exceeded a sane limit - as it's far from mainstream I would remove it.
The ~25000 files in /usr/share/texmf/fonts make up 90% of the installed size. I wonder how many of those are actually used in a typical document? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow escribió:
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
IMHO having it on the online repositories is just fine, texlive users will certainly find it quickly. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/5/26 Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com>:
Hi,
As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD.
I made a quick hack and removed qt4 documentation, which is also impressive 90MB. Werner says that texlive upstream doesn't see the problem and doesn't provide a good way to split (it's own distribution is a DVD or 2 CDs). And there is our problem: With every release it eats more and more of the openSUSE DVDs and I'm afraid it exceeded a sane limit - as it's far from mainstream I would remove it.
I use it... but sure, remove it from the DVD. If it needs to go in a media, probably that could be an openSUSE-Education thing?
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
266M noarch/texlive-2008-5.1.noarch.rpm 83M noarch/libqt4-devel-doc-data-4.5.1-1.1.noarch.rpm 72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm 32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm 27M x86_64/java-1_6_0-openjdk-1.6.0.0_b16-1.2.x86_64.rpm 26M noarch/opensuse-manual_de-11.1-2.21.noarch.rpm 25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm 25M noarch/efont-unicode-0.4.2-215.37.noarch.rpm 25M noarch/OpenOffice_org-templates-presentation-layouts-3.0-1.78.noarch.rpm 24M noarch/xorg-x11-fonts-7.4-1.79.noarch.rpm 23M x86_64/kdebase4-workspace-4.2.85-1.3.x86_64.rpm 22M noarch/CID-keyed-fonts-MOE-20021114-339.17.noarch.rpm 21M noarch/opensuse-manual_en-11.1-29.17.noarch.rpm 20M x86_64/frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1-1.46.x86_64.rpm 20M noarch/xemacs-packages-20070427-155.76.noarch.rpm 19M noarch/OpenOffice_org-icon-themes-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 19M x86_64/samba-client-3.3.4-1.1.x86_64.rpm 18M noarch/OpenOffice_org-help-ja-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 18M noarch/kde4-l10n-sv-doc-4.2.85-1.1.noarch.rpm
What called more my attention: - frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1. I'm not against it, but probably you can fit two or three other games in that space. And note that the 2.2.0final version has been available in the "games" repository for a long time. - opensuse-manual_de. OK, I don't know Germany so much... but I would expect nobody is still using 56K modems there. I don't have any other package in mind for those 26M... but if is ever any need for space that package would be my first candidate to be removed. (no, I don't speak german ;-) ) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Cristian Morales Vega:
What called more my attention: - frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1. I'm not against it, but probably you can fit two or three other games in that space. And note that the 2.2.0final version has been available in the "games" repository for a long time.
Most other games are actually already dropped out of distribution into games. A trend I don't really like, but you're right: most high class games are huge in size.
- opensuse-manual_de. OK, I don't know Germany so much... but I would expect nobody is still using 56K modems there. I don't have any other package in mind for those 26M... but if is ever any need for space that package would be my first candidate to be removed. (no, I don't speak german ;-) )
Check http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics before you talk about hurting german users :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
>>> On 5/26/2009 at 15:04, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote: >> What called more my attention: >> - frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1. I'm not against it, but probably you can fit >> two or three other games in that space. And note that the 2.2.0final >> version has been available in the "games" repository for a long time. > Most other games are actually already dropped out of distribution into > games. > A trend I don't really like, but you're right: most high class games are > huge in size. To counter steer that trend, we could maybe 'suggest' games at a different place? Maybe even with a meta-package in the games menu, to 'enable'/'add' the games repository? (Now you can already do it in Repo Manager, Community repos. I would see it as follows: - Close to no games on the media (we still need some nice ones around.. just for the sake of arguments) - A Meta package installed with the Media (small package), giving a launcher in the games menu. - The launcher adds / enables the games repository, and preferably brings you to yast / soft management / games repo (not sure if we can already such fine granularly give a starting point for yast?) Other than that. TexLive is surely a nice package (to have around, but also to drop from the media). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 26. maj 2009 14:13:44 skrev Stephan Kulow:
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
The world's most popular distro seems to get along without having it on their media I think ;-) Of course, that's easy for me to say since I'm not a Tex user myself...
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm
That should be replaced with koffice2-krita, which it seems might save quite some space.
25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm
Maybe this could be cleaned up/splitted. Who'll need kde3 konsole, kwrite, kate, konq etc. Those apps will just be menu clutter, confusion and wasted space on 11.2 imo.
20M x86_64/frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1-1.46.x86_64.rpm
It's fun, but not sure it's _that_ fun.
19M noarch/OpenOffice_org-icon-themes-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm
Must be some potential for splitting/dropping here. Maybe only include tango, krystal and perhaps high contrast for accessibility reasons, and drop the others or put them in a separate package online. Actually it might even make sense to use Tango as default in KDE4 installations too :-/
So let's discuss what the DVDs should be optimized for.
Of course it should definitely cover the most common scenarios. * Full KDE home user desktop * Full GNOME home user desktop * LAMP server * Full Xfce home user desktop * icewm * basic devel stuff (compiler, an editor or two, kernel-source, etc.) Beyond that my suggested priorities would be something like: 1) translations, fonts for exotic languages 2) home user apps (multimedia, games) 3) "productivity" and science apps (scribus, inkscape, etc.) 4) server apps 5) development tools -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 26. maj 2009 14:13:44 skrev Stephan Kulow:
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm
Second thought here. How long after release is the kernel updated on average? Within a month tops? Most of the time you have to get it online anyway for an updated kernel. Maybe it isn't particularly useful to have it on the media at all. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Tirsdag den 26. maj 2009 14:13:44 skrev Stephan Kulow:
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm
Second thought here. How long after release is the kernel updated on average? Within a month tops?
Most of the time you have to get it online anyway for an updated kernel. Maybe it isn't particularly useful to have it on the media at all.
Well, in the past it was very important because the first thing people do with a new install (so I was told) is compiling random kernel drivers. Now we have kernel-default-devel, which replaces kernel-source in that role, but the DVD lists are not yet updated. And getting 72MB from online is - well, 72MB on the line. If you get the released version from DVD and only download the updates, you are in the range of 10MB (and that's already 2 updates since 11.1) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow schreef:
266M noarch/texlive-2008-5.1.noarch.rpm 83M noarch/libqt4-devel-doc-data-4.5.1-1.1.noarch.rpm 72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm 32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm 27M x86_64/java-1_6_0-openjdk-1.6.0.0_b16-1.2.x86_64.rpm 26M noarch/opensuse-manual_de-11.1-2.21.noarch.rpm 25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm 25M noarch/efont-unicode-0.4.2-215.37.noarch.rpm 25M noarch/OpenOffice_org-templates-presentation-layouts-3.0-1.78.noarch.rpm 24M noarch/xorg-x11-fonts-7.4-1.79.noarch.rpm 23M x86_64/kdebase4-workspace-4.2.85-1.3.x86_64.rpm 22M noarch/CID-keyed-fonts-MOE-20021114-339.17.noarch.rpm 21M noarch/opensuse-manual_en-11.1-29.17.noarch.rpm 20M x86_64/frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1-1.46.x86_64.rpm 20M noarch/xemacs-packages-20070427-155.76.noarch.rpm 19M noarch/OpenOffice_org-icon-themes-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 19M x86_64/samba-client-3.3.4-1.1.x86_64.rpm 18M noarch/OpenOffice_org-help-ja-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 18M noarch/kde4-l10n-sv-doc-4.2.85-1.1.noarch.rpm
I now removed the second largest package so it fits for the moment, but I don't feel that's justified. But perhaps I'm wrong. So let's discuss what the DVDs should be optimized for.
Greetings, Stephan P.S. If you want to discuss packages that are currently not on DVD and should be there, feel free to do so if you start your post with "XX should go" as long as XX is part of the above list.
1) About the samba pkgs itc: sambaclient. This is not the only pkg nessesary to set up samba, we need some more there, but the way it works now, open samba-server and windows domain from yast2, and the needed packages get installed automagicly from the server, so i do not see a need to have it on the dvd. 2) About Oo help: a link could easily be in Oo to trigger the download of helpfiles from the server.. 3) Kernelsources should be triggered when downloading a compiler... 4) Qt devel doc data does not nessesarily be on the dvd? as also 5) the java developers kit. The opensuse manual, for beginners maybe, but i have my doubts there... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.29-rc8-5-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Alpha 0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 1" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Another option is to provide it in Blu-Ray. 25 GB will fit all packages, including "contrib". Debian does ! -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:
Another option is to provide it in Blu-Ray. 25 GB will fit all packages, including "contrib".
Who would want to download that? Who has blu-ray burners? what does it solve for the dvd? Why am I even answering if all I have is questions? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 5/26/2009 at 15:53, Alexey Eremenko <al4321@gmail.com> wrote: Another option is to provide it in Blu-Ray. 25 GB will fit all packages, including "contrib".
Debian does !
'Offering' is probably the easy part. But what is the use of it? Do you know ANYBODY with a BD Drive, or even a burner? I don't speak about BD Players or PS3 (coz then I have a BD drive too), but in his computer when he actually would install openSUSE. Yes, there are some notebooks and 'cheap brand' computers sold with BD Drives now. but the masses are low. As low as I believe we can easily ignore it (instead of just creating another problem in plus. as CD and DVD will still need to be provided) Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday May 26 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:
Another option is to provide it in Blu-Ray. 25 GB will fit all packages, including "contrib".
Who would want to download that?
I would. I'm a packrat and like to have stuff in my grimy paws, not just out there in the cloud.
Who has blu-ray burners?
I don't. Yet. I glanced at one at a local electronics and computer retailer, and the price tag was well over $300, so I probably won't be buying a writer for some time.
What does it solve for the dvd?
One-stop shopping.
Why am I even answering if all I have is questions?
Enquiring minds want to know. Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet. So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much.
Greetings, Stephan
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much. Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday May 26 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much.
Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
Packrat. Grimy paws. Try to pay attention. Seriously, if downloading Blu-Ray images is not going to be justified, then why would anything other than the nucleus of a boot disc with a kernel and a full complement of hardware drivers and the first stage of the installer ever be distributed? A CD (image) would be more than enough.
Greetings, Stephan
RRS -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
Who has blu-ray burners?
I don't. Yet. I glanced at one at a local electronics and computer retailer, and the price tag was well over $300, so I probably won't be buying a writer for some time.
http://www.nierle2.com/s01.php?cur=eur&sp=fr&ag=1&letterid=96&pp=aa&bnr=6471&eb3= 180 euros but I wonder if usb key one shouldn't be better (can be large) is it possible to boot from BR? and BR iso? we have to think about big media support (but may be this is not for 11.2??) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz schrieb:
On Tuesday May 26 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much. Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
Packrat. Grimy paws. Try to pay attention.
Seriously, if downloading Blu-Ray images is not going to be justified, then why would anything other than the nucleus of a boot disc with a kernel and a full complement of hardware drivers and the first stage of the installer ever be distributed? A CD (image) would be more than enough.
That already exists since ages. http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.1/iso/openSUSE-11.1-NET-i586.is... Or did you argue about that would be enough in every case? Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday May 26 2009, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Randall R Schulz schrieb:
On Tuesday May 26 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
...
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much.
Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation ...?
Packrat. Grimy paws. Try to pay attention.
Seriously, if downloading Blu-Ray images is not going to be justified, then why would anything other than the nucleus of a boot disc with a kernel and a full complement of hardware drivers and the first stage of the installer ever be distributed? A CD (image) would be more than enough.
That already exists since ages. <http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.1/iso/openSUSE-11.1-NET-i586.iso>
Or did you argue about that would be enough in every case?
My point is that if Blu-Ray media or images are not justified, then nothing but that sort of minimal installer is justified. If there's a reason to go beyond a minimal installer, then there's a reason to put everything on a single distribution medium (or image).
Wolfgang
Randall Schulz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
My point is that if Blu-Ray media or images are not justified, then nothing but that sort of minimal installer is justified. If there's a reason to go beyond a minimal installer, then there's a reason to put everything on a single distribution medium (or image).
I remember a box with one dvd and 5 cd, when a box with one BRD and 5 dvd's :-)) good news covering for sure jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Stephan Kulow schreef:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Martin Schlander:
Tirsdag den 26. maj 2009 14:13:44 skrev Stephan Kulow:
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm
Second thought here. How long after release is the kernel updated on average? Within a month tops?
Most of the time you have to get it online anyway for an updated kernel. Maybe it isn't particularly useful to have it on the media at all.
Well, in the past it was very important because the first thing people do with a new install (so I was told) is compiling random kernel drivers. Now we have kernel-default-devel, which replaces kernel-source in that role, but the DVD lists are not yet updated.
And getting 72MB from online is - well, 72MB on the line. If you get the released version from DVD and only download the updates, you are in the range of 10MB (and that's already 2 updates since 11.1)
Greetings, Stephan
I am updating right now online, factory full, 1089 pkgs, nearby 3 something GB, dl time approx. 2h and some 10 minutes.. This 'happens' during working, playing a game and eating with a cup of coffee... -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (M9.) (Now or never...) OS: Linux 2.6.29-rc8-5-default x86_64 Huidige gebruiker: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 Systeem: openSUSE 11.2 Alpha 0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.2.1 (KDE 4.2.1) "release 1" -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much. Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
Greetings, Stephan
There are a surprising number of labs, etc. which have zero internet connectivity. They would need to download the ISO containing everything they will need, then burn the disks and sneaker net it over to the restricted part of there operation. I don't know if any of those people need a full 100% functional release, but I do think the day will come when a blue ray iso will make sense. FYI: we do have machines that function that way, but we now boot them off of a custom studio boot CD. So for our lab, we are doing fine. And thank you to the suse-studio folks! That actually brings up a relevant idea. Can a studio CD/DVD be used to install from? Upgrade from? If so, even the people trying to install opensuse without internet access could use the studio to build a custom boot cd / dvd with just their needs represented. Greg -- Greg Freemyer Head of EDD Tape Extraction and Processing team Litigation Triage Solutions Specialist http://www.linkedin.com/in/gregfreemyer First 99 Days Litigation White Paper - http://www.norcrossgroup.com/forms/whitepapers/99%20Days%20whitepaper.pdf The Norcross Group The Intersection of Evidence & Technology http://www.norcrossgroup.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
I've already been trying to build a disc using Studio so that I can load machines that aren't networked here. Internet access in the Las Vegas Valley can mysteriously disappear for the strangest of reasons for extended periods. While I normally load boxen with the network installer, I try to have a standard toolkit ready if needed if network access is gone. Things I routinely use aren't found on the DVD but my use pattern is hardly regular. The only reason I could see for putting anything on Blu-Ray disc would be for establishing local mirrors in places like American Samoa. I left American Samoa in March 2007. The island's access to the outside world is restricted to the equivalent of a single T-1 line. Dial-up is fairly common and while that is great for using Lynx to browse the web, it is not cool for downloading packages. Routinely pushing a stack of discs via the US Postal Service there, since carriers like UPS and FedEx let alone DHL don't serve there, would allow mirror maintenance. For deciding what to put on the DVD, the question that must be asked is what the profile of the average openSUSE user is. Excess documentation, fonts, and tools should be moved to download only. SMK ______________________________________________ Stephen Michael Kellat, MSLS Interim Coordinator, LISNews Netcast Network http://www.lisnews.org/podcast http://erielookingproductions.info http://twitter.com/alpacaherder http://identi.ca/alpacaherder Greg Freemyer wrote:
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 10:09 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much. Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
Greetings, Stephan
There are a surprising number of labs, etc. which have zero internet connectivity.
They would need to download the ISO containing everything they will need, then burn the disks and sneaker net it over to the restricted part of there operation.
I don't know if any of those people need a full 100% functional release, but I do think the day will come when a blue ray iso will make sense.
FYI: we do have machines that function that way, but we now boot them off of a custom studio boot CD. So for our lab, we are doing fine. And thank you to the suse-studio folks!
That actually brings up a relevant idea. Can a studio CD/DVD be used to install from? Upgrade from? If so, even the people trying to install opensuse without internet access could use the studio to build a custom boot cd / dvd with just their needs represented.
Greg
-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-05-26 at 15:45 +0200, Oddball wrote:
The opensuse manual, for beginners maybe, but i have my doubts there...
Once upon a time the manual was also available as PDF in the install disk, to read before installing. Yes, that's a package that should be there. If network does not work and you have to RTFM, you will not be happy to need network to read it... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkocUEoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WsAgCfcHzJ5HuGJ2mCV2+hN8oru8eE SMIAmgLLg4/NHh936GUQ6E1yWdzL3zYO =ZMeS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-05-26 at 16:20 +0200, jdd wrote:
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
Who has blu-ray burners?
I don't. Yet. I glanced at one at a local electronics and computer retailer, and the price tag was well over $300, so I probably won't be buying a writer for some time.
http://www.nierle2.com/s01.php?cur=eur&sp=fr&ag=1&letterid=96&pp=aa&bnr=6471&eb3=
180 euros
but I wonder if usb key one shouldn't be better (can be large)
is it possible to boot from BR? and BR iso?
So the old saying is still true: "Space, the final frontier..." Well, a bootable (boot-only) bi-arch CDrom isn't such a bad idea. And i wonder what would be more cost effective to produce a BR with much on it or an usb-key / CF-card? i found that BR recordables were horrible expensive. Otherwise two single-arch, dual layer DVD... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-05-26 at 22:59 +0200, Hans Witvliet wrote:
On Tue, 2009-05-26 at 16:20 +0200, jdd wrote:
Randall R Schulz a écrit :
Who has blu-ray burners?
I don't. Yet. I glanced at one at a local electronics and computer retailer, and the price tag was well over $300, so I probably won't be buying a writer for some time.
http://www.nierle2.com/s01.php?cur=eur&sp=fr&ag=1&letterid=96&pp=aa&bnr=6471&eb3=
180 euros
but I wonder if usb key one shouldn't be better (can be large)
is it possible to boot from BR? and BR iso?
So the old saying is still true: "Space, the final frontier..."
Well, a bootable (boot-only) bi-arch CDrom isn't such a bad idea. And i wonder what would be more cost effective to produce a BR with much on it or an usb-key / CF-card?
i found that BR recordables were horrible expensive.
Otherwise two single-arch, dual layer DVD...
Could we try and keep the thread on topic please? If you wish to discuss making a BD/BR iso available then great, but start a fresh thread. The subject is pretty clear, it is about DVD media and nothing else. Sorry if I sound rude, but thread pollution is very bad etiquette and makes it difficult to follow conversations. Regards, Andy -- Andrew Wafaa, openSUSE Member: FunkyPenguin. openSUSE: Get It, Discover It, Create It at http://www.opensuse.org awafaa@opensuse.org | http://www.wafaa.eu -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday, 2009-05-26 at 14:13 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:
As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD.
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
266M noarch/texlive-2008-5.1.noarch.rpm
Yes, that's a good candidate to drop from the dvd and leave for online repo. On the other hand, you could start thinking about distributing two DVDs: one for the essentials, a second one for extras. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkoch3wACgkQtTMYHG2NR9X8ywCghNKwzvT02F8NRPwUhpQX3P2D vw8AoJTLJ/eVW8ZH3+JyQjU/KsK92mkg =lsHH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 26 May 2009 15:26:49 Martin Schlander wrote:
32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm That should be replaced with koffice2-krita, which it seems might save quite some space.
The seperate koffice2-doc (and not including it) has the biggest impact.
25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm Maybe this could be cleaned up/splitted. Who'll need kde3 konsole, kwrite, kate, konq etc. Those apps will just be menu clutter, confusion and wasted
Sizes from my home:Beineri KDE3 splitting experiment: kdebase3 9.9 MB kdebase3-apps 2.6 MB kdebase3-workspace 12.0 MB Bye, Steve -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD.
I made a quick hack and removed qt4 documentation, which is also impressive 90MB. Werner says that texlive upstream doesn't see the problem and doesn't provide a good way to split (it's own distribution is a DVD or 2 CDs). And
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts. See http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/texlive-base. Richard. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Richard Guenther a écrit :
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts.
by the way the LDP will provide very soon (in fact available now a beta) a rpm (2k) that source to an online repository of updated HOWTOs http://wiki.tldp.org/TLDPRepo (yum repo) this can be a replacement for the HOWTO en package jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://valerie.dodin.org http://news.opensuse.org/2009/04/13/people-of-opensuse-jean-daniel-dodin/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm
Maybe this could be cleaned up/splitted. Who'll need kde3 konsole, kwrite, kate, konq etc. Those apps will just be menu clutter, confusion and wasted space on 11.2 imo.
IMNSHO: remove the kde4 stuff and put all the kde3 stuff on the dvd. After using kde4 from 11.1 for 2 months exclusively, I've removed kde4 and switched back to kde3. Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer <jmayer@loplof.de> We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 03:32:51PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:
Second thought here. How long after release is the kernel updated on average? Within a month tops?
Most of the time you have to get it online anyway for an updated kernel. Maybe it isn't particularly useful to have it on the media at all.
You forget the delta rpm users. ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer <jmayer@loplof.de> We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Heya
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
My impression is that the dvd user base is these days more based in regions where you don't have broadband internet, so maybe the package list should try reflecting that, texlive is important for educational stuff, the german suse manual can be downloaded nearly everywhere in germany without real impact. So I'd prefer splitting where possible, but otherwise I'd try dropping big manuals, qt4 docs are nice but developers only, tex is quite important in any science / educational institute. Cya, Karsten -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much. Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
I download the entire ftp every OS release. I installed 80 machine in the first 48 hours after the release. It would have been next to impossible to do them without my entire Download. I created 15 mirrors of my ftp to do all the installs. I purcashed the 2 DVD boxed set. I was really hoping it would continue. I often have clients that do not have the internet acccess to do the installs. Having the 2 DVD made my life a lot easier. I had my clients purcashing them to do the installs. I really do not understand the attitude of why... Then you ased about the 250 GB. Well, I have the complete packman, openSUSE and sync daily my 250 GB GB SUSE stuff. So this attitude really upsets me. There are those of us who attempt to make a living spreading the word and do infact have the complete available download. I was doing it on my 1.5/1.o link. I was really glad when I finally got a 4.0 MD download DSL. Currently I have both DSK and Cable to be able to get everything in a more timely fashion. Some of use can not afford large downloads. We never know what our clients are going to nedd. So having it all makes our lives a lot easier. -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Stephan Binner wrote:
Maybe this could be cleaned up/splitted. Who'll need kde3 konsole, kwrite, kate, konq etc. Those apps will just be menu clutter, confusion and wasted Sizes from my home:Beineri KDE3 splitting experiment:
kdebase3 9.9 MB kdebase3-apps 2.6 MB kdebase3-workspace 12.0 MB
Thanks for providing this data, Stephan. I think it would really help to move the applications (in fact: completely remove them from FACTORY) as to reduce duplication and confusion. On Wed, 27 May 2009, Joerg Mayer wrote:
IMNSHO: remove the kde4 stuff and put all the kde3 stuff on the dvd. After using kde4 from 11.1 for 2 months exclusively, I've removed kde4 and switched back to kde3.
I can see why you are saying that. It's not going to be a sustainable approach in the long term, though, and even KDE 4.3 Beta is a significant improvement over previous 4.x releases. (I have been testing different desktop environments in the last couple of weeks and will say that all of them have room for improvement from a user perspective.) Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Richard Guenther wrote:
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts. See http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/texlive-base.
That sounds like a reasonable compromise. According to Ludwig 90% of what we currently have in the package are fonts, so it seems we can have our cake and eat it by splitting the huge package? Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 31 May 2009 12:38:09 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Richard Guenther wrote:
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts. See http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/texlive-base.
That sounds like a reasonable compromise. According to Ludwig 90% of what we currently have in the package are fonts, so it seems we can have our cake and eat it by splitting the huge package?
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD. Those with fast internet use online repos anyway, those without can use Addon DVD that could be small version of online repos. The benefit: - user get basic working system, - some savings in bandwidth usage, as mandatory download is only 650 MB, - simpler DVD, and - still covered all Internet users. Any disadvantages? -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Rajko M. wrote:
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD. Those with fast internet use online repos anyway, those without can use Addon DVD that could be small version of online repos. [...] Any disadvantages?
Covermounts and the DVD shipment program are two I can think of. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer E gp@novell.com SUSE Linux Products GmbH Director Product Management T +49(911)74053-0 HRB 16746 (AG Nuremberg) openSUSE/SUSE Linux Enterprise F +49(911)74053-483 GF: Markus Rex -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Mandag den 1. juni 2009 20:03:45 skrev Rajko M.:
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD.
Any disadvantages?
The dvd offers a much more polished "out-of-the-box" experience with localization, java and some other stuff. The dvd has a much more customizable installer offering text mode install, light weight installation, custom software selection, and ability to configure the hardware and other stuff during installation. The dvd doesn't require 512-1024 megs ram for installation. I believe the dvd is the most popular installation medium still. The live installer would need a whole lot of work compared to it's current state, to be viable as the only/primary installation medium imo. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2009/6/1 Martin Schlander <martin.schlander@gmail.com>:
Mandag den 1. juni 2009 20:03:45 skrev Rajko M.:
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD.
Any disadvantages?
The dvd offers a much more polished "out-of-the-box" experience with localization, java and some other stuff.
The dvd has a much more customizable installer offering text mode install, light weight installation, custom software selection, and ability to configure the hardware and other stuff during installation.
The dvd doesn't require 512-1024 megs ram for installation.
I believe the dvd is the most popular installation medium still.
Yes it is... http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics Under "Distribution of installation method ": Flavor Percentage dvd 89,0% ftp 7,4% dvd-biarch 3,5% livecd-kde 0,1% livecd-gnome 0,0% Regards, Luiz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 01 June 2009 04:51:58 pm Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote: ...
I believe the dvd is the most popular installation medium still. ... http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics ... Flavor Percentage dvd 89,0%
On funny side is that people download DVD and then disable in repo manager :-) -- Regards, Rajko http://news.opensuse.org/category/people-of-opensuse/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon June 1 2009 9:02:22 pm Rajko M. wrote:
On Monday 01 June 2009 04:51:58 pm Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote: ...
I believe the dvd is the most popular installation medium still. ... http://en.opensuse.org/Statistics ... Flavor Percentage dvd 89,0%
On funny side is that people download DVD and then disable in repo manager :-)
--
Well, after installation, I too do that only AFTER enabling the IMAGE of the DVD as my base repo which gets used unless newer versions are available in the online OSS/nonOSS/update repos. So, I don't use the DVD AFTER installation, but I do use the *image* as a primary source. I suspect there are many others that do the same and have the original for 'spreading the word' to others without requiring additional downloads and reducing overall download bandwidths even given the many updates that need to be downloaded later in the product life. Also, having a relatively complete installation DVD allows for relatively complete and flexible installations even in remote or secure/sensitive locations where internet is not readily available or desireable. I think that if Novell wants to go out of the Open Source Software (SuSE Linux) business, one way to do it would be to offer ONLY LiveCD with Network installation for upgrade/modifications from the LiveCD template. LiveCDs are OK for demonstrations, the basis of 'repair' systems, and showcasing some of the 'latest and greatest' gee-whiz abilities, but in the long run, the money is in the flexibility SuSE (openSuSE) has historically offered coupled with a solid and wide operational base with good support from the community as well as the corporation. You start taking away any of those things, and people will migrate to the niche distros like Ubuntu or Puppy or Damm Small or 'name your favorite' because without the wide spread support SuSE offers in terms of equipment and flexibility in install options (and untill recently, reliability), people will just install the one they have heard will work on their 'brand' or just stick with Redmond because it mostly works and came on the machine anyway even though it made the machine cost more. No, I think putting as much as will fit with as many USEFUL software as can be crammed onto the DVD is a better option. I also think a DUAL LAYER DVD IMAGE should be made available for download. Dual Layer drives are readily available for Linux machines, many have installations and would burn DL images if they were available. Others with older or less demanding requirements would still opt for the single layer image but retain most of the flexibility and many would also grab the LiveCD images of REPAIR and DEMOs to show friends or use when their system balks at booting. I'm tired of booting KNOPPIX to recover my SuSE system, but booting the openSuSE installation or LiveCD system D(dv)Ds are a joke if you are trying to do certain repair/debug functions and hard to do with Knoppix, etc because the systems aren't laid out the same. It would be nice if a genuine repair system were made into a truly useful LiveCD, complete with a GUI (XFCE, ICE maybe if KDE/Gnome won't fit) set of tools AS WELL AS all of the command line tools that could be used when a GUI isn't good enough, but all put into a dedicated CD with SuSE mentality and easily customisable to allow for individual systems. A great example is Puppy Linux which boots as a LiveCD, will install in a 'frugal' mode and boot using GRUB into a SuSE system, store any personalizations on the hard drive, allow you to burn a MULTI-SESSION Bootable CD/DVD which will allow booting Puppy with all your changes and is very compatible with much of SuSE. However, Puppy ISN'T SuSE, it would be wonderfully great if openSuSE could make such a LiveCD useful for Demo/Repair using openSuSE aware tools and fully customizable to the individual system and writable to a customized media ala Puppy mentality. Just don't take away the DVD image(s) in preference to any of my other suggestions :) ... and no, at my age, I no longer will live long enough to complete such a task <frown> even if the task could be completed in just a few months ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne pondělí 01 Červen 2009 20:37:51 Martin Schlander napsal(a):
Mandag den 1. juni 2009 20:03:45 skrev Rajko M.:
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD.
Any disadvantages?
The dvd offers a much more polished "out-of-the-box" experience with localization, java and some other stuff.
You have the same experience with booting mini-ISO and installing from online repos - well, but for the installation time.
The dvd has a much more customizable installer offering text mode install, light weight installation, custom software selection, and ability to configure the hardware and other stuff during installation.
The dvd doesn't require 512-1024 megs ram for installation.
I believe the dvd is the most popular installation medium still.
It is, but I don't really know why. Well, I use DVD since I don't have to download it over internet and burn it, otherwise I would most likely stick with online repos (and install the systems overnight)
The live installer would need a whole lot of work compared to it's current state, to be viable as the only/primary installation medium imo.
It was originally targeted for slightly different users group and simplicity was the most important requirement. Could you be more specific about what you would like to enhance on the live installer (either here, or, if possible, in openFate)? Jiri -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 00:08 -0400, Richard wrote: <snip>
Well, after installation, I too do that only AFTER enabling the IMAGE of the DVD as my base repo which gets used unless newer versions are available in the online OSS/nonOSS/update repos. So, I don't use the DVD AFTER installation, but I do use the *image* as a primary source. I suspect there are many others that do the same and have the original for 'spreading the word' to others without requiring additional downloads and reducing overall download bandwidths even given the many updates that need to be downloaded later in the product life. Also, having a relatively complete installation DVD allows for relatively complete and flexible installations even in remote or secure/sensitive locations where internet is not readily available or desireable. I think that if Novell wants to go out of the Open Source Software (SuSE Linux) business, one way to do it would be to offer ONLY LiveCD with Network installation for upgrade/modifications from the LiveCD template. LiveC Ds are OK for demonstrations, the basis of 'repair' systems, and showcasing some of the 'latest and greatest' gee-whiz abilities, but in the long run, the money is in the flexibility SuSE (openSuSE) has historically offered coupled with a solid and wide operational base with good support from the community as well as the corporation. You start taking away any of those things, and people will migrate to the niche distros like Ubuntu or Puppy or Damm Small or 'name your favorite' because without the wide spread support SuSE offers in terms of equipment and flexibility in install options (and untill recently, reliability), people will just install the one they have heard will work on their 'brand' or just stick with Redmond because it mostly works and came on the machine anyway even though it made the machine cost more.
No, I think putting as much as will fit with as many USEFUL software as can be crammed onto the DVD is a better option.
I also think a DUAL LAYER DVD IMAGE should be made available for download.
Dual-layer single architecture would solve most problems, but it means one for 686, x86_64, ppc ... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Freitag 29 Mai 2009 schrieb Boyd Lynn Gerber:
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
So perhaps it's a bit ahead of its time, but hopefully not much.
Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
I download the entire ftp every OS release. I installed 80 machine in the first 48 hours after the release. It would have been next to impossible to do them without my entire Download. I created 15 mirrors of my ftp to do all the installs. I purcashed the 2 DVD boxed set. I was really hoping it would continue. I often have clients that do not have the internet acccess to do the installs. Having the 2 DVD made my life a lot easier. I had my clients purcashing them to do the installs.
I really do not understand the attitude of why... Then you ased about the 250 GB. Well, I have the complete packman, openSUSE and sync daily my 250 GB GB SUSE stuff. So this attitude really upsets me. There are those of us who attempt to make a living spreading the word and do infact have the complete available download. I was doing it on my 1.5/1.o link. I was really glad when I finally got a 4.0 MD download DSL. Currently I have both DSK and Cable to be able to get everything in a more timely fashion. Some of use can not afford large downloads. We never know what our clients are going to nedd. So having it all makes our lives a lot easier.
Hi, You're slightly offtopic. This subthread is about blu-ray and people using internet-base video delivery. I think your use case is very clear and has nothing to do with the discussed. We could possible offer all of 11.2 tree as installation DVDs by means of torrents. I haven't yet looked into it, but I think it should be possible, unfortunately it wouldn't be addon DVDs, but a complete new set. So you would need to choose if you download the normal installation DVD or the offline ftp tree. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Donnerstag 28 Mai 2009 schrieb Karsten König:
Heya
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
My impression is that the dvd user base is these days more based in regions where you don't have broadband internet, so maybe the package list should try reflecting that, texlive is important for educational stuff, the german suse manual can be downloaded nearly everywhere in germany without real impact.
So I'd prefer splitting where possible, but otherwise I'd try dropping big manuals, qt4 docs are nice but developers only, tex is quite important in any science / educational institute. Hi,
Perhaps I'm wrong, but so far the educational institutes I attended were the ones with the best bandwith. Then again I love hacking pet projects in vacation spots where I don't have internet outside of internet cafes that do not allow free downloads and then I have to have all the docu on DVD. And I never need tex during vacation, but as I said: it's just me :) Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Sonntag 31 Mai 2009 schrieb Gerald Pfeifer:
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Richard Guenther wrote:
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts. See http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/texlive-base.
That sounds like a reasonable compromise. According to Ludwig 90% of what we currently have in the package are fonts, so it seems we can have our cake and eat it by splitting the huge package?
Want to maintain texlive? If not, I can only point to bnc#507046 Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Am Montag 01 Juni 2009 schrieb Rajko M.:
On Sunday 31 May 2009 12:38:09 pm Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
On Wed, 27 May 2009, Richard Guenther wrote:
Debian splits at least docs and some fonts. See http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/texlive-base.
That sounds like a reasonable compromise. According to Ludwig 90% of what we currently have in the package are fonts, so it seems we can have our cake and eat it by splitting the huge package?
We should really consider dropping installable DVD in favor of Live CD + Addon DVD. Those with fast internet use online repos anyway, those without can use Addon DVD that could be small version of online repos.
The benefit: - user get basic working system, - some savings in bandwidth usage, as mandatory download is only 650 MB, - simpler DVD, and - still covered all Internet users.
Any disadvantages?
No update medium you can use offline? Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Tirsdag den 2. juni 2009 08:02:31 skrev Jiri Srain:
Could you be more specific about what you would like to enhance on the live installer (either here, or, if possible, in openFate)?
I don't particulary want it to be enhanced, I only "bashed" it, because it was suggested to drop the dvd. I'm fairly happy with the live cd installer as long as it is a supplement for the proper powerful and customizable installation. The most important gripes I have with it I guess, would probably be a feature to download and install translations during installation, so people can log into a localized system immediately after installation. And a server/text mode installation option would be nice too. And if the dvd was dropped that would be absolutely critical imo. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Freitag 29 Mai 2009 schrieb Boyd Lynn Gerber:
On Tue, 26 May 2009, Stephan Kulow wrote:
Am Dienstag 26 Mai 2009 schrieb Randall R Schulz:
Anyway, Internet-based video delivery is becoming a reality. If the networking providers will get off their bums and start providing true high-speed Internet to the home, this will be no different than downloading a DVD is for someone with today's "high-speed" Internet.
Why would someone who uses internet based video delivery download a 25GB medium with 90% software he never uses and wait for the download to finish to start installation if he can do a network installation right away and only download what he needs in the same video delivery speed?
I download the entire ftp every OS release. I installed 80 machine in the first 48 hours after the release. It would have been next to impossible to do them without my entire Download. I created 15 mirrors of my ftp to do all the installs. I purcashed the 2 DVD boxed set. I was really hoping it would continue. I often have clients that do not have the internet acccess to do the installs. Having the 2 DVD made my life a lot easier. I had my clients purcashing them to do the installs.
I really do not understand the attitude of why... Then you ased about the 250 GB. Well, I have the complete packman, openSUSE and sync daily my 250 GB GB SUSE stuff. So this attitude really upsets me. There are those of us who attempt to make a living spreading the word and do infact have the complete available download. I was doing it on my 1.5/1.o link. I was really glad when I finally got a 4.0 MD download DSL. Currently I have both DSK and Cable to be able to get everything in a more timely fashion. Some of use can not afford large downloads. We never know what our clients are going to nedd. So having it all makes our lives a lot easier.
You're slightly offtopic. This subthread is about blu-ray and people using internet-base video delivery. I think your use case is very clear and has nothing to do with the discussed.
I think blu-ray would enable us that do a lot of installs to use them. After all blu-ray does hold a lot more. It would/could be used to install the many various different installs that need just a few of the files, but are so different for each installation.
We could possible offer all of 11.2 tree as installation DVDs by means of torrents. I haven't yet looked into it, but I think it should be possible, unfortunately it wouldn't be addon DVDs, but a complete new set. So you would need to choose if you download the normal installation DVD or the offline ftp tree.
Having the ability to have everything available via DVD/blu-ray could really assist us that have to support/install the miriad of people/businesses getting to know SUSE using openSUSE to convert them to Linux/SLES/SLED. Thanks, -- Boyd Gerber <gerberb@zenez.com> 801 849-0213 ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Dne úterý 02 Červen 2009 17:19:16 Martin Schlander napsal(a):
Tirsdag den 2. juni 2009 08:02:31 skrev Jiri Srain:
Could you be more specific about what you would like to enhance on the live installer (either here, or, if possible, in openFate)?
I don't particulary want it to be enhanced, I only "bashed" it, because it was suggested to drop the dvd. I'm fairly happy with the live cd installer as long as it is a supplement for the proper powerful and customizable installation.
The most important gripes I have with it I guess, would probably be a feature to download and install translations during installation, so people can log into a localized system immediately after installation.
I will have a look at it.
And a server/text mode installation option would be nice too. And if the dvd was dropped that would be absolutely critical imo.
Not that I ever tried it .... but what prevents you from switching to text console and starting 'yast live-installer' from console? -- Regards, Jiri Srain YaST Team Leader --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. e-mail: jsrain@suse.cz Lihovarska 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 959 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Onsdag den 3. juni 2009 09:29:34 skrev Jiri Srain:
Dne úterý 02 Červen 2009 17:19:16 Martin Schlander napsal(a):
Tirsdag den 2. juni 2009 08:02:31 skrev Jiri Srain: And a server/text mode installation option would be nice too. And if the dvd was dropped that would be absolutely critical imo.
Not that I ever tried it .... but what prevents you from switching to text console and starting 'yast live-installer' from console?
I didn't mean the installation workflow it self, but installing a minimal system without X for server usage, using the live cd. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:37 AM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:
Stephan Kulow escribió:
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
IMHO having it on the online repositories is just fine, texlive users will certainly find it quickly.
+1 Best, Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier <jzb@zonker.net> openSUSE Community Manager: http://zonker.opensuse.org Blogs: http://blogs.zdnet.com/community | http://www.dissociatedpress.net Twitter: jzb | Identica: jzb http://identi.ca/group/opensuse/members -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
A lot of the packages in the "Technical Documentation" pattern use parts of the LaTeX toolchain. You might have to remove that whole pattern. I use LyX and its dependencies, but not much of the other stuff. On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Stephan Kulow <coolo@novell.com> wrote:
Hi,
As texlive was updated vom 2007 to 2008 in factory, it also grew from 159MB to 266MB and that made the milestone2 DVDs exceed the limits you can burn on DVD.
I made a quick hack and removed qt4 documentation, which is also impressive 90MB. Werner says that texlive upstream doesn't see the problem and doesn't provide a good way to split (it's own distribution is a DVD or 2 CDs). And there is our problem: With every release it eats more and more of the openSUSE DVDs and I'm afraid it exceeded a sane limit - as it's far from mainstream I would remove it.
I know how many use texlive and I don't talk about dropping it out of the distribution, but I can't hold it on DVD unless I drop several other packages.
To give you an impression let me give you a list of packages on build112 DVD sorted by size:
266M noarch/texlive-2008-5.1.noarch.rpm 83M noarch/libqt4-devel-doc-data-4.5.1-1.1.noarch.rpm 72M noarch/kernel-source-2.6.30-4.1.noarch.rpm 32M x86_64/koffice-illustration-1.6.3-214.26.x86_64.rpm 27M x86_64/java-1_6_0-openjdk-1.6.0.0_b16-1.2.x86_64.rpm 26M noarch/opensuse-manual_de-11.1-2.21.noarch.rpm 25M x86_64/kdebase3-3.5.10-22.12.x86_64.rpm 25M noarch/efont-unicode-0.4.2-215.37.noarch.rpm 25M noarch/OpenOffice_org-templates-presentation-layouts-3.0-1.78.noarch.rpm 24M noarch/xorg-x11-fonts-7.4-1.79.noarch.rpm 23M x86_64/kdebase4-workspace-4.2.85-1.3.x86_64.rpm 22M noarch/CID-keyed-fonts-MOE-20021114-339.17.noarch.rpm 21M noarch/opensuse-manual_en-11.1-29.17.noarch.rpm 20M x86_64/frozen-bubble-2.2.0rc1-1.46.x86_64.rpm 20M noarch/xemacs-packages-20070427-155.76.noarch.rpm 19M noarch/OpenOffice_org-icon-themes-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 19M x86_64/samba-client-3.3.4-1.1.x86_64.rpm 18M noarch/OpenOffice_org-help-ja-3.1.0.2-1.1.noarch.rpm 18M noarch/kde4-l10n-sv-doc-4.2.85-1.1.noarch.rpm
I now removed the second largest package so it fits for the moment, but I don't feel that's justified. But perhaps I'm wrong. So let's discuss what the DVDs should be optimized for.
Greetings, Stephan P.S. If you want to discuss packages that are currently not on DVD and should be there, feel free to do so if you start your post with "XX should go" as long as XX is part of the above list.
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Hi, yes, educational institutes have the best connection, but what I have seen in Brasil (the only country where I have friends who study and internetcafes are still on every corner) people download their big software bundles in the university or the internet cafe to take it home later on, or they buy it on the streets for a penny. But computers (though often old ones) are widespread, so I consider these installations a big target. But true, everybody has different use cases, mine wouldn't be hacking on vacation ;-) So it'd be best for the dvd to cover as much use cases as possible, so I'd still say stripping texlive is a worth a second attempt. Karsten Am Dienstag, 2. Juni 2009 10:36:41 schrieb Stephan Kulow:
Hi,
Perhaps I'm wrong, but so far the educational institutes I attended were the ones with the best bandwith. Then again I love hacking pet projects in vacation spots where I don't have internet outside of internet cafes that do not allow free downloads and then I have to have all the docu on DVD.
And I never need tex during vacation, but as I said: it's just me :)
Greetings, Stephan
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participants (29)
-
Alexey Eremenko -
Andrew Wafaa -
Boyd Lynn Gerber -
Carlos E. R. -
Carlos E. R. -
Cristian Morales Vega -
Cristian Rodríguez -
Dominique Leuenberger -
Gerald Pfeifer -
Greg Freemyer -
Hans Witvliet -
jdd -
Jiri Srain -
Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier -
Joerg Mayer -
Karsten König -
Ludwig Nussel -
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti -
M. Edward (Ed) Borasky -
Martin Schlander -
Oddball -
Rajko M. -
Randall R Schulz -
Richard -
Richard Guenther -
Stephan Binner -
Stephan Kulow -
Stephen Michael Kellat -
Wolfgang Rosenauer