[opensuse-factory] Tier-2 languages in RC1

Martin Schlander

23 Nov 2006 23 Nov '06

15:24

After I, and my three team members have invested a lot of time and emotions in translating 10.2 into Danish I was shocked to find out that no tier-2 translations were included on RC1 dvd5, since they were there in beta2. If my information is correct, this is what happened. There was no room for translations on dvd9, noone knows why. Since it was planned to not include the language addon cd in the box, again noone understands why, this meant no tier-2 translations in the box. To avoid hurting the feelings of paying customers the tier-2 translations were removed from dvd5 too. Maybe I'm too emotional about this, but I'm literally in shock. This will make things pretty difficult for all non-english, non-german, non-french, non-spanish, non-czech, non-italian, non-<certain asians> to get a localized product. People already complain a lot about the download size of openSUSE.. now they need a dvd _and_ an addon cd, and people buy a box and they don't get a localized product. Furthermore I think this is disrespectful to the volunteer tier-2 language translators, that noone will use now. Because if the MS-deal and FUD didn't scare 'em the download size and trouble involved with localzing the stuff will. And the solution is simple I think. Put the damn language add-on CD in the freaking box or _make_ room on the DVD9. And then put the translations back on the damn DVD5. If necessary raise the price for the box with €1 or €2.. or make a special box for tier-2 countries that costs €2 more, so only those of us who've made the mistake of living in small countries will bare the costs, without others having to suffer. Martin PS. How does one instruct zen-updater to use a different language? I have installed the Danish packages in the Language filter in YaST, but zen-updater remains English. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Michael Loeffler

23 Nov 23 Nov

18:36

On Thursday 23 November 2006 16:24, Martin Schlander wrote:

...

After I, and my three team members have invested a lot of time and emotions in translating 10.2 into Danish I was shocked to find out that no tier-2 translations were included on RC1 dvd5, since they were there in beta2. Betas are targeted to developers, geeks in general testers and bug reporters. Therfor we put on a Beta as much as possible. For the final version this target group stays same but another much bigger group is adressed - the user. For the user not always the selection of Betas makes sense. That's one reason why e.g. we dropped OpenOffice 64-bit for RC1.

If my information is correct, this is what happened. There was no room for translations on dvd9, noone knows why. Since it was planned to not include the language addon cd in the box, again noone understands why, this meant no tier-2 translations in the box. To avoid hurting the feelings of paying customers the tier-2 translations were removed from dvd5 too. The reason for that is that the larger the DVD gets the unhappier our mirrors become. As all of you know our mirrors are very important and are already challenged with the variety and size of versions we offer. Further we don't want to risk with a DVD larger than 4GB that plenty of users having problems with their download clients to download this piece.

Maybe I'm too emotional about this, but I'm literally in shock.

This will make things pretty difficult for all non-english, non-german, non-french, non-spanish, non-czech, non-italian, non-<certain asians> to get a localized product. Please notice that via the ftp tree which is automatically set up as a installation source getting a additional language is pretty simple. And downloading one CD is not challenging anymore and getting a localized product is assured in that way.

People already complain a lot about the download size of openSUSE.. now they need a dvd _and_ an addon cd, and people buy a box and they don't get a localized product. As kind of 85% of the installation are made out of tier 1 countries we don't want to burden all of them with a download version almost 700MB larger as it needs to be for them. So we offer for the mayority a version easier to download and for the minority we offer 2 simple ways (ftp and languag add-on CD) to get their languages.

Furthermore I think this is disrespectful to the volunteer tier-2 language translators, that noone will use now. Because if the MS-deal and FUD didn't scare 'em the download size and trouble involved with localzing the stuff will.

And the solution is simple I think.

Put the damn language add-on CD in the freaking box or _make_ room on the DVD9. And then put the translations back on the damn DVD5. If necessary raise the price for the box with €1 or €2.. or make a special box for tier-2 countries that costs €2 more, so only those of us who've made the mistake of living in small countries will bare the costs, without others having to suffer. I can understand your dissappointment but reality shows that what ever is done somebody complains. The Build Service will give you a possiblity to create your danish edition of openSUSE!

Anyway I like to thank you, your team and all language contributors for the efforts made for localisation and as written above I think the solution to offer additional languages through ftp and the language CD is an acceptable solution. Michael

...

Martin

PS. How does one instruct zen-updater to use a different language? I have installed the Danish packages in the Language filter in YaST, but zen-updater remains English. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Martin Schlander

19:15

Torsdag 23 november 2006 19:36 skrev Michael Loeffler:

...

I can understand your dissappointment but reality shows that what ever is done somebody complains.

Thanks for your answer, this calms me a (little) bit. However you didn't mention the box set. I take it that means that it is correct that tier2 languages won't be included in the box on neither dvd9 nor cd. If translations were included in the box that would be a good selling point for people to buy the box in tier2 countries, instead of just downloading. Furthermore I'd suggest that functionality is developed for 10.3 to unstall the translations from the net (if available), during installation.. I'll put it on the wiki. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Klaus Kaempf

19:33

* Martin Schlander [Nov 23. 2006 20:15]:

...

Furthermore I'd suggest that functionality is developed for 10.3 to unstall the translations from the net (if available), during installation.. I'll put it on the wiki.

Its almost there already. Choose "add-on product" and enter the ftp install path. The main problem is doing a proper network setup at this point during installation. Certainly something for 10.3. Klaus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

21:51

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As a side note, do we have some numbers about the size of language support (per language) ? Just a gross approximation ? Hm.. I don't know... On one hand, it isn't that difficult to add the internet repository for 10.2 to YaST2 (maybe that's something that should be made a lot easier). OTOH if you end up with an UI in a language you don't understand, you won't even make it far enough as to add the internet repository to install the packages for your language. What package sizes are we talking about ? - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFZhfMr3NMWliFcXcRAk50AKC30ffNm4757dxtB5OETlttIaXOMgCgoxQk Xamfen7sxl5EJk/IbAd7oSg= =BvwP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

21:57

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 10:51:08PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

As a side note, do we have some numbers about the size of language support (per language) ? Just a gross approximation ?

Hm.. I don't know... On one hand, it isn't that difficult to add the internet repository for 10.2 to YaST2 (maybe that's something that should be made a lot easier).

It already is. Did you install 10.2 betas and remember the popup at the Online Registration? In /content EXTRAURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/ OPTIONALURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-Factory-non-oss/inst-source-ext... http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory-debug/inst-source-d... Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

22:03

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 10:57:52PM +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 10:51:08PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
As a side note, do we have some numbers about the size of language support (per language) ? Just a gross approximation ?

Hm.. I don't know... On one hand, it isn't that difficult to add the internet repository for 10.2 to YaST2 (maybe that's something that should be made a lot easier).

It already is. Did you install 10.2 betas and remember the popup at the Online Registration?

In /content EXTRAURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/ OPTIONALURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-Factory-non-oss/inst-source-ext... http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory-debug/inst-source-d...

Repackagers of our DVDs / CDs might just want to add their own repos here... Or this Spaceinvaders repo or however it is called. :) Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Pascal Bleser

22:04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marcus Meissner wrote:

...

On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 10:51:08PM +0100, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...
As a side note, do we have some numbers about the size of language support (per language) ? Just a gross approximation ?

Hm.. I don't know... On one hand, it isn't that difficult to add the internet repository for 10.2 to YaST2 (maybe that's something that should be made a lot easier).

It already is. Did you install 10.2 betas and remember the popup at the Online Registration?

Sorry, my bad ^^ No, didn't install 10.2, only in chroots to build RPMs for 10.2 ;)

...

In /content EXTRAURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/ OPTIONALURLS http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-Factory-non-oss/inst-source-ext... http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory-debug/inst-source-d...

Awesome, very useful feature :) Thanks Marcus. cheers - -- -o) Pascal Bleser http://linux01.gwdg.de/~pbleser/ /\\ _\_v The more things change, the more they stay insane. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFZhrjr3NMWliFcXcRAgkaAKCmaJVb4klrmuUUdXmUuscz8V6lyACePawr QOtIm7mEo8W4d4xStZhDksU= =g+ZO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Eberhard Moenkeberg

22:16

Hi, On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Pascal Bleser wrote:

...

As a side note, do we have some numbers about the size of language support (per language) ? Just a gross approximation ?

Hm.. I don't know... On one hand, it isn't that difficult to add the internet repository for 10.2 to YaST2 (maybe that's something that should be made a lot easier). OTOH if you end up with an UI in a language you don't understand, you won't even make it far enough as to add the internet repository to install the packages for your language.

What package sizes are we talking about ?

According to Linus' "world domination" goal, we just HAVE TO give a broad language support the highest priority. With quality software and selections of course, but every potential user needs to feel "homed" with it to get a friend. A good quality would lack recognition if people would feel strange with it. Cheers -e -- Eberhard Moenkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

24 Nov 24 Nov

15:41

Michael and myself discussed this a bit further and asked our build experts to experiment a bit - and those first experiments are positive enough that I'm confident to tell you about them ;-). We're planning to put all languages that have according to the translation statistics page (http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/index.php) more than 98 % translated to the media. Note this is the translation status for YaST and software provided by the openSUSE project and Novell folks, it does not include translation status of e.g. GNOME, KDE or OpenOffice.Org. We're working on the details on how exactly to do this - just DVD or also CDs (in that case on CD4+5) - but we're trying to do what can be done. So, this means that the following languages should get on the media - in addition to the existing ones: * Danish (100 %) * Finnish (100 %) * Hungarian (100 %) * Cambodian (99 %) * Norwegian (99 %) * Dutch (98 %) * Polish (99 %) I'm impressed with the level of translation that these teams have done! Note: We master on monday an internal RC2 and will check that everything really fits on the media. Our constraints are the space on the CDs and that the DVD5 should not be larger than 4 GB. I hope that's an acceptable solution for all, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Martin Schlander

17:43

Fredag 24 november 2006 16:41 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

...

We're planning to put all languages that have according to the translation statistics page (http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/index.php) more than 98 % translated to the media.

...

We're working on the details on how exactly to do this - just DVD or also CDs (in that case on CD4+5) - but we're trying to do what can be done.

Awesome. It's still unclear to me what will and won't be on the dvd9 though.

...

* Danish (100 %) * Finnish (100 %) * Hungarian (100 %) * Cambodian (99 %) * Norwegian (99 %) * Dutch (98 %) * Polish (99 %)

I'm impressed with the level of translation that these teams have done!

Thanks.

...

I hope that's an acceptable solution for all,

No more complaints from me. But you'd better figure out a good solution for 10.3 - by then everybody will make sure they have at least 98% translated ;-) Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger

18:07

Martin Schlander writes:

...

Fredag 24 november 2006 16:41 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

...
We're planning to put all languages that have according to the translation statistics page (http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/index.php) more than 98 % translated to the media.

...
We're working on the details on how exactly to do this - just DVD or also CDs (in that case on CD4+5) - but we're trying to do what can be done.

Awesome. It's still unclear to me what will and won't be on the dvd9 though.

We'll figure this out on monday ;-)

...

...
* Danish (100 %) * Finnish (100 %) * Hungarian (100 %) * Cambodian (99 %) * Norwegian (99 %) * Dutch (98 %) * Polish (99 %)

I'm impressed with the level of translation that these teams have done!

Thanks.

...
I hope that's an acceptable solution for all,

No more complaints from me. But you'd better figure out a good solution for 10.3 - by then everybody will make sure they have at least 98% translated ;-)

We raise to 102 % ;-) Yes, we need some solution and have to discuss this, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Ain Vagula

18:10

2006/11/24, Martin Schlander :

...

Fredag 24 november 2006 16:41 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

...
We're planning to put all languages that have according to the translation statistics page (http://i18n.opensuse.org/stats/index.php) more than 98 % translated to the media.

...
We're working on the details on how exactly to do this - just DVD or also CDs (in that case on CD4+5) - but we're trying to do what can be done.

Awesome. It's still unclear to me what will and won't be on the dvd9 though.

...
* Danish (100 %) * Finnish (100 %) * Hungarian (100 %) * Cambodian (99 %) * Norwegian (99 %) * Dutch (98 %) * Polish (99 %)

I'm impressed with the level of translation that these teams have done!

Thanks.

...
I hope that's an acceptable solution for all,

No more complaints from me. But you'd better figure out a good solution for 10.3 - by then everybody will make sure they have at least 98% translated ;-)

When talking about yast and lcn translations, then sorry - how much space these will take? The biggest yast-translation package is about 500 KB, usually these are about 200 KB. lcn string count is twice less, so seems like including 30 languages will take about 20 MB alltogether as rpm-s. Is this worth discussing at all? ain --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org