On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 06:17:47PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/06 00:09 (GMT+0200) Marcus Meissner composed:

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On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 06:08:08PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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(broken) 11.3RC1 version: 4.6.2 (Opened 20100302: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=584493 ) MC development version: 4.7.3 MC stable version: 4.7.0.7

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:-(

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This discovery is really quite late in the RC phase... Some weeks earlier would have helped.

There's nothing recently discovered here. I filed the bug more than 4 months ago, and have been keeping it up to date on MC release progress, expectant because of the switch to KMS that an update to a newer version would either fix the bug, or be prerequisite to a fix.

Lack of fix for this will either delay my server's 11.0 to 11.3 upgrade, or prevent it entirely, forcing me to "upgrade" from the out-of-support release to older than the current release and consequent premature future upgrade.

bug 584493 is a kernel bug apparently, not a "upgrade mc" bug. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-07-06 00:09, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 06:08:08PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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(broken) 11.3RC1 version: 4.6.2 (Opened 20100302: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=584493 ) MC development version: 4.7.3 MC stable version: 4.7.0.7

:-(

This discovery is really quite late in the RC phase... Some weeks earlier would have helped.

Mc is a very useful tool for recovery and maintenance tasks, specially when GUI is broken. It is a crucial tool. However, the bugzilla above is not about mc, but about display corruption in text mode, which is, IMO, even worse. I haven't noticed that problem - perhaps I haven't tried text mode enough this time. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" GM (Elessar)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwzBh0ACgkQU92UU+smfQVKUACfY+2UxJv52ZTJzUNRMcuvqyMj yzcAoJJIMY+dxlKNBbMJjEhnflP6Pg+x =ldDQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Do we have a feature request ID for the Midnight Commander version upgrade at https://features.opensuse.org/ ? Best would be a submit request with the upgraded Midnight Commander package sources. Those needing it first should check the openSUSE Build Service (OBS) if someone else did this upgrade already but hasn't filed the required submit request. As we're this close to the release of oS 11.3 it's very likely to late. Anyone willing to do the work should first talk to coolo if an upgrade this late would still be possible (very, very unlikely) and second should talk to those maintaining the packages. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 02:59:08PM +0900, Vitaliy Tomin wrote:

I've built mc-4.7.3 for 11.2 and Factory in my home OBS repo:

https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=mc&project=home:HighwayStar:branches:Base:System http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/HighwayStar:/branches:/Base:...

Perfect! Why hasn't anyone (including me) been able to check for this right in time for oS 11.3? Please call osc submitrequest home:HighwayStar:branches:Base:System mc Base:System to get your efforts merged into Factory. Unfortunately for oS 11.3 this is to late. But we'll have a more current mc with Factory soon and enough time for testing. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

Le mercredi 07 juillet 2010, à 05:57 -0400, Felix Miata a écrit :

On 2010/07/07 11:45 (GMT+0200) Lars Müller composed:

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Why hasn't anyone (including me) been able to check for this right in time for oS 11.3?

I have to think few or none on Novell's payroll use MC.

MC is in the console tools pattern. I can't imagine why anything in an installation pattern doesn't automatically get pulled to the latest stable release whenever that happens prior to a string freeze. What else in console tools is on an antique version?

Check all the "New upstream version" in https://build.opensuse.org/stage/project/status?project=openSUSE%3AFactory&filter_devel=All+Packages&limit_to_fails=false&include_versions=false&include_versions=true&commit=Filter+results (it's not just console tools, but you can then filter by devel projects like, say, Base:System) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Felix Miata wrote:

ISTR Novell not so long ago laid off a number of employees who worked on openSUSE. It seems there's a lot of slack created from that, and these are small parts of a much larger problem lurking and waiting to bite more and more often.

What is the point you are trying to make? The FreeBSD ports collection has about 22000 ports and not a single Novell employee is paid to work on them (nor FreeBSD.org employees)...

I mentioned this thread subject multiple times in https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=584493 filed more than 4 months ago which has all but totally been ignored.

...and the misc/mc port there is at version 4.7.2. openSUSE, like any other Open Source projects, needs contributions, community, volunteers.

This resource lack is exacerbated by the artificial Novell distinction and double work between "bugs" and "features", with separate databases for both.

Looks like a red herring to me. Gerald -- Dr. Gerald Pfeifer Director Product Management, SUSE Linux Enterprise, openSUSE, Appliances -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2010/07/10 15:55 (GMT+0200) Gerald Pfeifer composed:

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, Felix Miata wrote:

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This resource lack is exacerbated by the artificial Novell distinction and double work between "bugs" and "features", with separate databases for both.

Looks like a red herring to me.

It presents additional opportunity for misclassification and consequent excuses for nothing being done on a filed report. Typically this is due to the too often arbitrary bug/feature distinction. e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=420526 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=547703 https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=393569 -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2010-07-07 at 16:26 +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Lars Müller (lmuelle@suse.de) [20100707 11:34]:

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https://build.opensuse.org/package/show?package=mc&project=home:HighwayStar:branches:Base:System http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/HighwayStar:/branches:/Base:...

Perfect!

No, not so perfect. This is the current development version of mc and not one of our patches was incorporated. Granted, many of them are obsolete but not all of them. I've created a package based on 4.7.0.7 that includes those of the old patches that apply, the Fedora patches and those debian unstable patches that I deemed usefull for us. As soon as it builds I'll make a SR for Base:System.

Would be nice to make an exception of the general version upgrade rule and push this as online update for 11.3 soon-ish, in my opinion. Thanks -- Atri -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 08, 2010 at 05:40:51PM +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

* Philipp Thomas (pth@suse.de) [20100707 16:26]:

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As soon as it builds I'll make a SR for Base:System.

I went one step further and updated Base:System which thus now has 4.7.0.7 . I'll also create a bleeding-mc package that tracks the current devel version of mc as soon as time permits.

Perhaps mc can also move out of Base:System... which is way too full. While there is no other good devel project, perhaps a new one containing "console / ncurses tools" could be created. Ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Felix Miata (mrmazda@earthlink.net) [20100707 16:48]:

Shouldn't have been necessary. A fix for 6 month old https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=571503 implies upgrade to latest stable version.

Yes, it would have been neccessary given the way openSUSE handles things. You should have opend a bug for the wrong timestamps and *additionally* a feature request in openFATE. Philipp BTW, it speeds up bug handling if you assign the bug right away. To do that take the maintainer 'osc maintainer' will report for a given package. Yes, bugzilla should be able to do something like that but currently it can't. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:46:01PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

My mind just can't wrap itself around the Novell way of artificially distinguishing betweeen bugs and features, or following two trackers for what amounts to one purpose, with separate databases for both. I know of no other open source project where this is done - enhancement requests are sensibly kept right alongside known brokenness in the bug trackers for the YaST-less Mandriva, Mozilla, Fedora, KDE, Xfree, Kernel, *buntu, etc.

The kernel does not use bugzilla for features, it almost doesn't use bugzilla at all even for bugs. bugzilla does not work well for features at all. It can not track them across different products, can not handle threaded responses, and can not handle the different roles that people play when involved in the feature review and acceptance process. That is why FATE was created and why it is used, it is so much better than bugzilla for this task. bugzilla just does not work well for feature requests. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 02:57:42PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2010/07/07 11:38 (GMT-0700) Greg KH composed:

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On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 12:46:01PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

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My mind just can't wrap itself around the Novell way of artificially distinguishing betweeen bugs and features, or following two trackers for what amounts to one purpose, with separate databases for both. I know of no other open source project where this is done - enhancement requests are sensibly kept right alongside known brokenness in the bug trackers for the YaST-less Mandriva, Mozilla, Fedora, KDE, Xfree, Kernel, *buntu, etc.

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The kernel does not use bugzilla for features, it almost doesn't use bugzilla at all even for bugs.

If you imply adding code for the neverending addition of hardware to support constitutes features, I disagree. It's the nature of the beast that this is necessary, while the word feature connotes something that may or may not be desirable or necessary.

Either way, the kernel.org developers do not use bugzilla at all for this. The majority of them (myself included) really don't like using bugzilla for kernel.org work at all.

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bugzilla does not work well for features at all. It can not track them across different products, can not handle threaded responses, and can not handle the different roles that people play when involved in the feature review and acceptance process.

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That is why FATE was created and why it is used, it is so much better than bugzilla for this task.

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bugzilla just does not work well for feature requests.

What you wrote is fine only in theory.

No, it's been proven in practice for many years here at SuSE and then at Novell internally for our enterprise products.

As a practical matter screeners and deciding whether a behavior or lack thereof constitutes a bug or a missing feature is no small issue, particularly for as-time-permits testers filing bugs against Factory milestones. To me, any time something that used to work stops working or disappears, it's a bug, not a feature. Time stamps from LANMAN shares used to work in MC, then stopped, so doing whatever it takes to make them work again is no FATE candidate.

That's a bug, it's quite simple. Don't try to make it complex here :) thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2010-07-07 at 18:29 +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

BTW, it speeds up bug handling if you assign the bug right away. To do that take the maintainer 'osc maintainer' will report for a given package.

No, a user doesn't have the capability to run "osc". It is the job of the people receiving the bug reports to do an initial screening, request missing info, and forward to whoever is appropiate. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkw1ACIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WUMgCfXioEPg+Tm+hKw7SfHrGpqpgN n+YAn1/s/owE+KIwcaRvPF9mgBhJFjsX =4PYt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Stephan Kleine [01-01-70 11:34]:

On Thursday July 8 2010 00:30:50 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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No, a user doesn't have the capability to run "osc".

It is the job of the people receiving the bug reports to do an initial screening, request missing info, and forward to whoever is appropiate.

You just learned that "osc" exists and since you have a bugzilla account you now have the capability to use it.

If you don't use it then just file a bug and wait for the screening team to assign it. The point was not that you have to use osc maintainer to file a bug but that it would speed things up if you assign it to the correct person while filing the bug so you don't have to wait for the screening team and save them some work.

So I installed osc locally and tried briefly w/o studing: 19:36 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer mutt Server returned an error: HTTP Error 404: Not Found Unknown project 'mutt' mutt project: https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=server%3Amail and 19:39 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=server%3Amail Server returned an error: HTTP Error 404: Not Found No route matches "/source/https:/build.opensuse.org/project/show" with {:method=>:get} so it is not *that* simple :^( -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Stephan Kleine [07-07-10 20:15]:

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So I installed osc locally and tried briefly w/o studing:

19:36 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer mutt Server returned an error: HTTP Error 404: Not Found Unknown project 'mutt'

mutt project: https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=server%3Amail

and

19:39 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer https://build.opensuse.org/project/show?project=server%3Amail Server returned an error: HTTP Error 404: Not Found No route matches "/source/https:/build.opensuse.org/project/show" with {:method=>:get}

so it is not *that* simple :^(

"osc --help" is your friend or in your case "osc maintainer --help".

The proper way would be "osc maintainer server:mail mutt". How should it know what maintainer you want if you don't tell it in which project the package you are interested in is? ;)

that does work: 20:21 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer server:mail mutt bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix and I like the information and availability. I did do "osc --help" but not further and I did remark "w/o studing", but thanks. That really is simple and the osc install only tied up 3mb: The following NEW packages are going to be installed: osc python-m2crypto 2 new packages to install. Overall download size: 787.0 KiB. After the operation, additional 3.0 MiB will be used. tks, -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 08, 2010 at 09:50:17AM +0200, Joerg Mayer wrote:

On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 08:25:17PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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so it is not *that* simple :^(

"osc --help" is your friend or in your case "osc maintainer --help".

The proper way would be "osc maintainer server:mail mutt". How should it know what maintainer you want if you don't tell it in which project the package you are interested in is? ;)

that does work:

20:21 wahoo:~ # osc maintainer server:mail mutt bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

And how do I know that mutt belongs to server:mail? The following output doesn't help? Maybe this information could be added to the rpm output?

The right call is of course: osc maintainer openSUSE:Factory mutt ciao, Marcus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, Jul 08, 2010 at 09:55:46AM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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And how do I know that mutt belongs to server:mail?

Use the following: $ osc maintainer openSUSE:Factory mutt bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix

It tells you that the development project of mutt from openSUSE's Factory is server:mail - and gives the names of the owners.

No need to learn about this for packages that are in Factory ;)

Great! That was a question I wanted to ask for about a year now ;-) Ciao Joerg -- Joerg Mayer We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:55:46 +0200 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix

This information is useless in bugzilla context - unless you know the people already. External users have no way of searching for email adresses in bugzilla, only novell internal users have this capability IIUC. And even then, OBS usernames do not need to resemble anything that's also present in bugzilla. -- Stefan Seyfried "Any ideas, John?" "Well, surrounding them's out." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Stefan Seyfried [2010-07-08 11:46]:

On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:55:46 +0200 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix

This information is useless in bugzilla context - unless you know the people already. External users have no way of searching for email adresses in bugzilla, only novell internal users have this capability IIUC.

$ osc maintainer server:mail mutt --Bernhard Walle bugowner of server:mail/mutt : werner@novell.com maintainer of server:mail/mutt : mrueckert@novell.com Regards, Bernhard -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2010/7/8 Patrick Shanahan :

* Stefan Seyfried [07-08-10 05:46]:

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On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:55:46 +0200 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix

This information is useless in bugzilla context - unless you know the people already. External users have no way of searching for email adresses in bugzilla, only novell internal users have this capability IIUC.

And even then, OBS usernames do not need to resemble anything that's also present in bugzilla.

revealed by "osc maintainer --help"    -e, --email         show email addresses instead of user names

08:56 wahoo:~ > osc maintainer server:mail mutt -e bugowner of server:mail/mutt : werner@novell.com

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : mrueckert@novell.com

To summarize. To know to who you must assign a bug: - The classic way rpm -q --changelog <package> (or look at it from YaST sw_single) and look at the most common emails from the top. - Since the OBS osc maintainer -e <project> <package> - Since the new OBS web interface with anonymous access There is a bug icon in the main window of each package. If you click on it you are redirected to bugzilla with the Assign To field correctly filled. - In the future Have that bug icon in the Software Portal, where users are expected to look? (you can't expect users to know about the OBS or osc) Meanwhile all this perhaps should be added to http://wiki.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Bug_reporting_FAQ ?) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2010-07-08 at 11:46 +0200, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

On Thu, 8 Jul 2010 09:55:46 +0200 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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bugowner of server:mail/mutt : WernerFink

maintainer of server:mail/mutt : darix

This information is useless in bugzilla context - unless you know the people already. External users have no way of searching for email adresses in bugzilla, only novell internal users have this capability IIUC.

Exactly.

And even then, OBS usernames do not need to resemble anything that's also present in bugzilla.

And if we make a mistake using that information and assign to the wrong maintainer, the bug will stay unsolved even more months. I already have bugs in the limbo for years, as it is... No, the assigment must be done by people that know what they are doing. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkw2LIwACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WjvACffjlhLwmtNvYuSU6ghqlkd+hF dpUAn1oldMgpw/jsqYEPlTYYLn3A4KFh =32eq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Thursday July 8 2010 01:52:53 Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2010-07-08 at 00:36 +0200, Stephan Kleine wrote:

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On Thursday July 8 2010 00:30:50 Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Wednesday, 2010-07-07 at 18:29 +0200, Philipp Thomas wrote:

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BTW, it speeds up bug handling if you assign the bug right away. To do that take the maintainer 'osc maintainer' will report for a given package.

No, a user doesn't have the capability to run "osc".

It is the job of the people receiving the bug reports to do an initial screening, request missing info, and forward to whoever is appropiate.

You just learned that "osc" exists and since you have a bugzilla account you now have the capability to use it.

I have known it for ages. You need a buildservice account and some training.

Your Novell / Bugzilla account works for the buildservice and the training is osc --help. Seriously, I'm _not_ saying that it is for everyone but merely that it is a way to speed things up since you don't have to rely on the screening team.

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If you don't use it then just file a bug and wait for the screening team to assign it. The point was not that you have to use osc maintainer to file a bug but that it would speed things up if you assign it to the correct person while filing the bug so you don't have to wait for the screening team and save them some work.

No, the point is that you have to improve bugzilla screening procedures. Make it easier, not more difficult.

We are encouraging people to fill up bugzillas, that is is easy, that we'll help then along the way if they need. That devs are helpfull people and will tell them what more info they need and how to obtain it.

Then we stumble with such an uncaring request: do an "osc" and...

YIIICKS! :-(

Sure, and now come up with a better way than relying on some screening team to assign the bugs and the whole world prolly will love you since our bugzilla isn't the only one where things work this way. Point being, if you have a better suggestion then present it but just saying that the current way sucks - although the rest of the world does it in the same way - doesn't really help. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org