On 02/19/2011 07:29 AM, Vahis wrote:

My server is 11.2 and I'll need to change soon. I'm still dreaming of getting it somehow into a rolling mode :)

Vahis

Same here. But I am also thinking that this will be my last upgrade to 11.3 (or 11.4) :) -- Angelos Tzotsos Remote Sensing Laboratory National Technical University of Athens http://users.ntua.gr/tzotsos -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Sat, 2011-02-19 at 17:39 +0200, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

...

On 02/19/2011 07:29 AM, Vahis wrote:

...

My server is 11.2 and I'll need to change soon. I'm still dreaming of getting it somehow into a rolling mode :)

Vahis

Same here. But I am also thinking that this will be my last upgrade to 11.3 (or 11.4) :)

-- While on the subject of Tumbleweed.... If you switch from a fixed version towards Tumbleweed, how about all the add-on repo's of the OBS?

afaics, they are still 11.2, 11.3, factory, SLE and some alien stuff.

hw

I would think they could add tumbleweed as a build target for these, just like the ones you listed are now. That would actually probably be a necessary first step, the semi-official (i.e. not home:) obs repos would need to set up tumbleweed as one of their build targets, get packages building successfully for tumbleweed, and only then think about submitting them for inclusion in tumbleweed. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2011/2/20 Greg KH :

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 01:28:48PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

I would think they could add tumbleweed as a build target for these, just like the ones you listed are now.

No, and that is one of the main reasons why I don't want to have Tumbleweed be a stand-alone "product" or "release".  To require this would add even more work to our packagers, and I do not want to do that at all.

At some point it will be needed anyway. If I build against and Factory I will find that my package doesn't works in Tumbleweed because - The one compiles against an old version of a library that changed soname in Tumbleweed - The Factory one references a symbol that is not available in the library version from Tumbleweed Which version do you recommend to use with Tumbleweed? or Factory? In fact, using only and Tumbleweed repos, will we not find with - 's packageA depends on libA1 and libB1 - Tumbleweed's libB1 depends on libA2 - libA doesn't versions symbols and packageA explodes ? That's something that can already happen now mixing repos. But that's a risk the user decides to take when he stops using openSUSE and starts using "openSUSE + whatever repo", that is not the same supported distro anymore. Now it will be an inherent problem of using the "openSUSE Tumbleweed" product. You need to build packageA in Tumbleweed. But since the "packageA"s are not identified you need to build everything in Tumbleweed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2011/2/21 Greg KH :

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:37:10AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2011/2/20 Greg KH :

...

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 01:28:48PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

I would think they could add tumbleweed as a build target for these, just like the ones you listed are now.

No, and that is one of the main reasons why I don't want to have Tumbleweed be a stand-alone "product" or "release".  To require this would add even more work to our packagers, and I do not want to do that at all.

At some point it will be needed anyway. If I build against and Factory I will find that my package doesn't works in Tumbleweed because - The one compiles against an old version of a library that changed soname in Tumbleweed - The Factory one references a symbol that is not available in the library version from Tumbleweed

Which version do you recommend to use with Tumbleweed? or Factory?

First off, why are you building packages against Tumbleweed?  When you want something updated, it's because it already is working in Factory, right?  Then you ask me to link it in, I test it out in openSUSE:Tumbleweed:Testing, if it builds properly, then I move it to openSUSE:Tumbleweed.

When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just talking about different things. What I'm still worried about is the - 's packageA depends on libA1 and libB1 - Tumbleweed's libB1 depends on libA2 - libA doesn't versions symbols and packageA explodes (libA1 and libA2 are two versions of libA with different sonames but that provide clashing symbols) case. This will only be detected at runtime, and the "detection" would be an user complaining about a hard to debug problem. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just talking about different things.

Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory. packman is a perfect example. So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others. There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos. But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working. You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else. One of the big advantages of openSUSE is having all of these specialized repositories, but those won't be usable with tumbleweed.

...

What I'm still worried about is the

- 's packageA depends on libA1 and libB1 - Tumbleweed's libB1 depends on libA2 - libA doesn't versions symbols and packageA explodes (libA1 and libA2 are two versions of libA with different sonames but that provide clashing symbols)

case. This will only be detected at runtime, and the "detection" would be an user complaining about a hard to debug problem.

We will deal with that when/if it happens, I'm not worried about it at all at the moment.

It is inevitable. Wouldn't it be better to plan for known problems now rather than scrambling for a workaround when the problem arises?

There's going to be funner things for Tumbleweed, like updating the version of perl or python, to deal with :)

Exactly, and that is going to leave a huge number of add-on packages (from outside the main installation) totally unusable. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:46:44AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just talking about different things.

Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory. packman is a perfect example. So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others. There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos. But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working. You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else.

No, not at all, you can set tumbleweed to be your repo you build against today. I just did it and tested that it worked properly, so I don't see the problem here, do you? thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 02:30:19PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:46:44AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just talking about different things.

Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory.  packman is a perfect example.  So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others.  There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos.  But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working.  You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else.

No, not at all, you can set tumbleweed to be your repo you build against today.  I just did it and tested that it worked properly, so I don't see the problem here, do you?

thanks,

greg k-h

As I explained already, this is a lot more complicated and requires you to modify the build targets every time a new version of openSUSE is released.

It will require _me_ to change the Tumbleweed build target, but that's the only one it will bother, right? I have to do that anyway, so I don't see the issue here at all. confused, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:43 AM, todd rme wrote:

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 02:30:19PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:46:44AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking > about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that > aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the > games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why > those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just > talking about different things.

Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory.  packman is a perfect example.  So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others.  There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos.  But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working.  You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else.

No, not at all, you can set tumbleweed to be your repo you build against today.  I just did it and tested that it worked properly, so I don't see the problem here, do you?

thanks,

greg k-h

As I explained already, this is a lot more complicated and requires you to modify the build targets every time a new version of openSUSE is released.

It will require _me_ to change the Tumbleweed build target, but that's the only one it will bother, right?  I have to do that anyway, so I don't see the issue here at all.

confused,

greg k-h

You said that tumbleweed is an add-on repo for the normal version of openSUSE.  This means anyone wanting to build against it would need to manually set up a repository with multiple build targets, such as 11.4+tumbleweed.  This is considerably more complicated than setting up an individual build target.  Further, every time there is a new openSUSE version, every project that builds against tumbleweed would need to remove the normal openSUSE build target (11.4 for example) and replace it with a new build target (11.5).  This would require either deleting their build target entirely and re-making it, or going into the configuration and removing the existing target and adding a new one.

-Todd

Nevermind, thinking about this again it appears this is a mistake. Please disregard. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:43 AM, todd rme wrote:

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 02:30:19PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:46:44AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote: > When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking > about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that > aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the > games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why > those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just > talking about different things.

Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory.  packman is a perfect example.  So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others.  There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos.  But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working.  You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else.

No, not at all, you can set tumbleweed to be your repo you build against today.  I just did it and tested that it worked properly, so I don't see the problem here, do you?

thanks,

greg k-h

As I explained already, this is a lot more complicated and requires you to modify the build targets every time a new version of openSUSE is released.

It will require _me_ to change the Tumbleweed build target, but that's the only one it will bother, right?  I have to do that anyway, so I don't see the issue here at all.

confused,

greg k-h

You said that tumbleweed is an add-on repo for the normal version of openSUSE.  This means anyone wanting to build against it would need to manually set up a repository with multiple build targets, such as 11.4+tumbleweed.  This is considerably more complicated than setting up an individual build target.  Further, every time there is a new openSUSE version, every project that builds against tumbleweed would need to remove the normal openSUSE build target (11.4 for example) and replace it with a new build target (11.5).  This would require either deleting their build target entirely and re-making it, or going into the configuration and removing the existing target and adding a new one.

Todd, Now its you applying zypper logic to OBS. OBS is hierarchical. When you tell a package to build against Tumbleweed, it will automatically build against the repo Tumbleweed builds against also. So I just added "openSUSE_Tumbleweed_standard" as a repo for one of my home projects to build against. Thus, since Tumbleweed only has 11.3 as a repo my packages in the project are now additionally building against (Opensuse 11.3 + Tumbleweed) As long as that name doesn't change when Greg KH changes the tumbleweed base repo from 11.3 to 11.4, my project should continue to build fine, but with (opensuse 11.4 + Tumbleweed) as the foundation with no action on my part. Note that is different from how devel:languages:perl work. Those OBS repos have the opensuse base package in the name: devel_languages_perl_openSUSE_11.3 I don't know how Tumbleweed was setup not to have that in the name, but doing so resolves the OBS building issue I think. I guess we'll find out when tumbleweed transitions to 11.4 Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:43 AM, todd rme wrote:

...

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 02:30:19PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Greg KH wrote:

...

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 12:46:44AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

...

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:59 PM, Greg KH wrote: > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 05:35:02AM +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote: >> When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking >> about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that >> aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the >> games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why >> those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just >> talking about different things. > > Yes, please always remember, one of the requirements for Tumbleweed is > that the package already be in Factory.

The whole point is that a lot of people use packages that aren't in factory.  packman is a perfect example.  So are the games repository, education repository, science repository, various unstable repositories, and many others.  There are valid use-cases for using all of these repos.  But there is a very good chance that the packages built against, for instance, 11.4 will not work with tumbleweed, and at the very least you can't count on them working.  You are basically forcing people who use tumbleweed to use the core packages and nothing else.

No, not at all, you can set tumbleweed to be your repo you build against today.  I just did it and tested that it worked properly, so I don't see the problem here, do you?

thanks,

greg k-h

As I explained already, this is a lot more complicated and requires you to modify the build targets every time a new version of openSUSE is released.

It will require _me_ to change the Tumbleweed build target, but that's the only one it will bother, right?  I have to do that anyway, so I don't see the issue here at all.

confused,

greg k-h

You said that tumbleweed is an add-on repo for the normal version of openSUSE.  This means anyone wanting to build against it would need to manually set up a repository with multiple build targets, such as 11.4+tumbleweed.  This is considerably more complicated than setting up an individual build target.  Further, every time there is a new openSUSE version, every project that builds against tumbleweed would need to remove the normal openSUSE build target (11.4 for example) and replace it with a new build target (11.5).  This would require either deleting their build target entirely and re-making it, or going into the configuration and removing the existing target and adding a new one.

Todd,

Now its you applying zypper logic to OBS.

OBS is hierarchical.

When you tell a package to build against Tumbleweed, it will automatically build against the repo Tumbleweed builds against also.

So I just added "openSUSE_Tumbleweed_standard" as a repo for one of my home projects to build against.

Thus, since Tumbleweed only has 11.3 as a repo my packages in the project are now additionally building against (Opensuse 11.3 + Tumbleweed)

As long as that name doesn't change when Greg KH changes the tumbleweed base repo from 11.3 to 11.4, my project should continue to build fine, but with (opensuse 11.4 + Tumbleweed) as the foundation with no action on my part.

Note that is different from how devel:languages:perl work.

Those OBS repos have the opensuse base package in the name: devel_languages_perl_openSUSE_11.3

I don't know how Tumbleweed was setup not to have that in the name, but doing so resolves the OBS building issue I think.  I guess we'll find out when tumbleweed transitions to 11.4

Greg

As i mentioned, i was incorrect. But if this is possible, that means the information necessary to do this must be available to OBS. In other words, say we have project A, which is based on project B. So when someone builds against A, OBS is smart enough to know it should use packages from B as well. So it must know what is in A, know what is in the project A is built against (project B), and be smart enough to resolve conflicts (by using packages from project A whenever there is a conflict). But that is exactly what we are asking for from the tumbleweed repository. It has all the packages from project A, and knows that project A is built against project B, so it includes links (in the underlying filesystem) to the packages from project B that are not also in A. This would mean that there could be an entire installable tumbleweed repository that automatically has all the necessary packages. It takes no additional space on the server and no additional time to download, all the package version numbers would be automatically correct, and it would require no additional work for you are anyone else once it is set up (the very act of keeping the OBS project running would automatically keep the repository up-to-date). Of course this is not possible now. But all the information necessary to do this has to already be present in OBS. What is lacking is a mechanism to make use of it at the repository level. The approach also has another advantage: your idea of an add-on repository and our idea of an entire separate repository are not mutually exclusive. It could be set up so that there is an add-on repository, and a second merged repository that in the filesystem links to the packages in the add-on repository and the packages in the parent repository. It could just be a pair of options in the OBS project config: "show add-on repository" and "show merged repository" (these are just possible names). This, I think, would seem to satisfy everyone. It requires no additional work for you, no additional work for packagers, no additional work for users, no additional resources on OBS, no additional storage on the servers, no additional downloads from the servers, people who prefer an add-on repo can get it, people who prefer a single complete repo can get it, and users don't need to do change their repository structure when a new version of openSUSE comes out (if they use the single repo version). -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 08:23:51AM +0100, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 05:35 +0100, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

...

2011/2/21 Greg KH :

...

...

...

Which version do you recommend to use with Tumbleweed? or Factory?

First off, why are you building packages against Tumbleweed? When you want something updated, it's because it already is working in Factory, right? Then you ask me to link it in, I test it out in openSUSE:Tumbleweed:Testing, if it builds properly, then I move it to openSUSE:Tumbleweed.

When Hans asked about "the add-on repo's of the OBS" I wasn't thinking about "backport repos". I was thinking about those packages that aren't in Factory, so probably neither in Tumbleweed. Most from the games repository fall in this category. Another question would be why those packages aren't in Factory... But anyway OK, we were just talking about different things.

Ok,

Besides the apperent risk of dependancy-poblems (if i understood correctly), the original qustions was more about something else.

Currently i use packages from the OBS for my opensuse_xx systems, just because they can not be found anywhere else. I just mention all the treasors to be found in Apache:/Modules, Apache, server\:/php:, asterisk..... Now i explicitly add the addon repo's from either openSUSE_11.3 or alike.

Should any tumbleweed-user (besides adding&installing tumbleweed) add factory-addons instead?

I would not recommend mixing openSUSE:Factory and openSUSE:Tumbleweed, that's just as bad as mixing Factory with 11.3 or 11.4. thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 08:09 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

...

Should any tumbleweed-user (besides adding&installing tumbleweed) add factory-addons instead?

I would not recommend mixing openSUSE:Factory and openSUSE:Tumbleweed, that's just as bad as mixing Factory with 11.3 or 11.4.

Now i'm completely lost.

Tumbleweed looks very nice indeed, but i what you say, is that i can neither use factory nor 11.3 nor 11.4?

So that means effectually that means that should install all addons, like asterisk or (apache) mod_auth_kerb from source?

Puzzled, Hans

Greg, I know you're trying to avoid making Tumbleweed a full blown distro of it's own. I think you need to differentiate that into how it appears to Zypper and how it appears to OBS. They use different paradigms and it feels like you are trying to force the zypper paradigm on the OBS platform. For OBS I think it needs to be presented to the user similar to 11.3, 11.4, and factory. ie. It should be in this list at OBS: https://build.opensuse.org/project/add_repository_from_default_list?project=... And when a user does a software search via OBS, it needs to be able to search for packages compiled for Tumbleweed, etc. As others have said, it is the paradigm that the packagers and OBS users are used to. Not having that will just make it confusing for all. The above does NOT mean Tumbleweed needs to have all the 11.3 / 11.4 packages in it. OBS repos are hierarchical at least within OBS itself. So a project that is building against Tumbleweed, automatically builds against whatever Tumbleweed is built against except the Tumbleweed packages superseed packages from its underlying repo with the same name. So if I build a OBS project against Tumbleweed and it needs a set of header files from a *-devel package, OBS will first look for the -devel package in Tumbleweed, and if doesn't find it, OBS will use the package from the base project Tumbeweed is built against is used instead. Now my guess is that you should soon be going into the Tumbleweed OBS Test project and changing the repo it builds against from 11.3 to 11.4. My hope would be that you can do the same for the primary Tumbleweed project as soon as the 11.4 Gold is announced. The unknown for me would be how you can "freeze" Tumbleweed for a while as everything rebuilds in the background for 11.4. Since the Tumbleweed add-ins for 11.4 will be minimal maybe you just - disable publishing and building - change the repo you're building against - delete all the existing Tumbleweed packages from 11.3 days - SR new Tumbleweed packages up from Tumbleweed 11.4 Test - enable building and wait for completion - enable publishing That way OBS projects that are using the Tumbleweed repo, will automatically see the new Tumbleweed + 11.4 setup with zero inaction by the various packagers that are building against it. Unfortunately: For end-users, I don't think zypper is similarly hierarchical, thus I suspect you are right, they will need manually update their core repos from 11.3 to 11.4. I don't know if there is any effort / thought related to making zypper manage repos in a hierarchical manner like OBS does. Greg (the other) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 2011/02/22 06:50 (GMT-0800) Greg KH composed:

Yes, I will do that, but there really shouldn't be any packages in Tumbleweed when 11.4 starts out as everything that is in Tumbleweed right now is only at the level of 11.4 anyway.

Day before yesterday I did a fresh minimal X 11.3 install, then immediately added Tumbleweed repo and dup'd to it. Was that a mistake? It sure didn't update much, maybe 30-40 packages. -- "How much better to get wisdom than gold, to choose understanding rather than silver." Proverbs 16:16 NKJV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2011/02/22 06:50 (GMT-0800) Greg KH composed:

...

Yes, I will do that, but there really shouldn't be any packages in Tumbleweed when 11.4 starts out as everything that is in Tumbleweed right now is only at the level of 11.4 anyway.

Day before yesterday I did a fresh minimal X 11.3 install, then immediately added Tumbleweed repo and dup'd to it. Was that a mistake? It sure didn't update much, maybe 30-40 packages.

Felix, I suspect you just don't have many packages that have newer versions in Tumbleweed. It is still a growing environment, but I show about 500 packages in it currently: zypper pa | grep Tumbleweed | wc (Note that is everything, so if a package has both 32bit and 64bit, you get both versions. So I divided by 2 for the 500 guesstimate.) zypper pa | grep Tumbleweed | less will obviously let you look at the full collection. (Or via yast, etc.) On my workstation with Libreoffice installed, I did a Tumbleweed dup a week or two ago. Trying again now, I get 66 packages to upgrade, so there has been some activity in the last couple weeks. Much of it Libreoffice related. === gaf@tiger3-64bit:~/tmp/thumb/ubuntu> sudo zypper dup --from Tumbleweed Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... Computing distribution upgrade... The following package is going to be REMOVED: OpenOffice_org-icon-theme-galaxy The following packages are going to be upgraded: aaa_base aaa_base-extras apache2 apache2-prefork apache2-utils cifs-utils git-arch git-core git-cvs git-email git-gui gitk git-svn git-web kernel-desktop kernel-desktop-base kernel-desktop-devel kernel-devel kernel-docs kernel-source kernel-trace kernel-trace-devel libldb0 libreoffice-branding-openSUSE libreoffice-calc libreoffice-components libreoffice-draw libreoffice-filters libreoffice-filters-optional libreoffice-help-en-US libreoffice-icon-theme-crystal libreoffice-icon-theme-galaxy libreoffice-icon-theme-hicontrast libreoffice-icon-theme-oxygen libreoffice-icon-theme-tango libreoffice-impress libreoffice-kde4 libreoffice-l10n-extras libreoffice-libs-core libreoffice-libs-extern libreoffice-libs-gui libreoffice-mailmerge libreoffice-math libreoffice-pyuno libreoffice-ure libreoffice-writer libsmbclient0 libsmbclient0-32bit libtalloc2 libtdb1 libtdb1-32bit libtevent0 libwbclient0 libwbclient0-32bit MozillaThunderbird preload samba samba-32bit samba-client samba-client-32bit samba-winbind-32bit systemtap systemtap-runtime virtualbox virtualbox-host-kmp-desktop virtualbox-qt 66 packages to upgrade, 1 to remove. Overall download size: 322.1 MiB. After the operation, 6.3 MiB will be freed. ======== Greg F -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Greg KH wrote:

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 04:29:37PM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:07 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 08:09 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

...

Should any tumbleweed-user (besides adding&installing tumbleweed) add factory-addons instead?

I would not recommend mixing openSUSE:Factory and openSUSE:Tumbleweed, that's just as bad as mixing Factory with 11.3 or 11.4.

Now i'm completely lost.

Tumbleweed looks very nice indeed, but i what you say, is that i can neither use factory nor 11.3 nor 11.4?

So that means effectually that means that should install all addons, like asterisk or (apache) mod_auth_kerb from source?

Puzzled, Hans

Greg,

I know you're trying to avoid making Tumbleweed a full blown distro of it's own.

I think you need to differentiate that into how it appears to Zypper and how it appears to OBS.  They use different paradigms and it feels like you are trying to force the zypper paradigm on the OBS platform.

For OBS I think it needs to be presented to the user similar to 11.3, 11.4, and factory.

ie. It should be in this list at OBS: https://build.opensuse.org/project/add_repository_from_default_list?project=...

It shows up if you click on the "pick one via advanced interface" link just fine.

Greg, it not only shows up just as any repo would, it shows up in a base distro neutral form. ie. 11.3 is not in the name. I did not realize that. In effect somehow Tumbleweed in OBS is already different from a typical sub project like development:languages:perl which has the base distro in the name. So I agree, my issue for building is already addressed. Although I personally would still like to see it in the main list, that can wait.

...

And when a user does a software search via OBS, it needs to be able to search for packages compiled for Tumbleweed, etc.

You can do that today as well.

I just built a test package against Tumbleweed, and I have to agree it shows up fairly cleanly in the search dialog. http://software.opensuse.org/search?q=sleuthkit&baseproject=openSUSE%3A11.3&lang=en&include_home=true&exclude_debug=true ie. If you look at the second result in the above, it is clearly the Tumbleweed version. The only slight confusion is I had to put 11.3 in the pull down, but that too can wait to be addressed at a future time. Overall, I'm happier with how Tumbleweed interacts with OBS / OBS search than I thought I was. Hopefully I wasn't the only one confused. Thanks Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2011-02-21 at 08:09 -0800, Greg KH wrote:

...

Should any tumbleweed-user (besides adding&installing tumbleweed) add factory-addons instead?

I would not recommend mixing openSUSE:Factory and openSUSE:Tumbleweed, that's just as bad as mixing Factory with 11.3 or 11.4.

Ok, understandably, it is -in general- not wise the mix versions. But, currently there is an enormous amount** of packages that are not (yet, i hope) build for tumbleweed. Just one example: mod_auth_kerb. It is only buils for SLE, openSUSE_x.y and factory. Will that also be made (in due time) for Tumbleweed If so, its just a matter of patience. Otherwise, no-go: My co-workers will be very happy if i can avoid the periodicaly upgrade, certainly. But i will be lynched if i tell them that much of the addon's are not available anymore. Building & maintaining those packages myself is far worse then the system-upgrade once a year Kind regards, hans ** On my mirror i counted (not in the home directories) 101492 packages for 11.3 92715 packages for 11.2 6056 packages for 11.4 87006 packages for factory and 33692 packages for tumbleweed Currently, the _only_ add-on supporting Tumbleweed is: # ll /srv/distro/repo/driver:/wireless/ drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 9 00:37 11.2-update drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 22 17:12 11.3-update drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Nov 18 23:48 SLE_10 drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Nov 18 23:35 SLE_10_SP2 drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 9 00:37 SLE_11 drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 9 00:38 openSUSE_11.2 drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 9 00:40 openSUSE_11.3 drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 21 19:13 openSUSE_Factory drwxr-xr-x 7 10000 10000 4096 Feb 19 14:47 openSUSE_Tumbleweed -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 02/23/2011 11:04 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote: <snip>

So people, get sane. Just try tumbleweed on a non-mission-critical machine. You'll see that it just works,

Agreed! As a user, I've been running Tumbleweed on this 11.3 almost since day 1. I can only be happy about it :) I have the basic 11.3 repos + Packman + Tumbleweed enabled, I'm zypper dup:ing at least daily and I've only seen things go smoothly. Everything seems to come closer and closer to factory which I'm running on another machine. This thing is changing towards 11.4 like magic.

Just use it. Try it first on not-so-important machines.

I hear you :) I'm having great time watching this metamorphosis. Vahis -- http://waxborg.servepics.com openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Tumbleweed 2.6.37.1-14-default -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 02/23/2011 07:02 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Vahis wrote:

...

I've been running Tumbleweed on this 11.3 almost since day 1. I can only be happy about it :)

I have the basic 11.3 repos + Packman + Tumbleweed enabled,

I'm zypper dup:ing at least daily and I've only seen things go smoothly.

I just tried it on a fileserver of ours. (A test one).

It failed to recognize the disks and thus could not boot.

What was your starting point? 11.3? What did you do? Added Tumbleweed repo and did a zypper dup? That's what I had/did and it just works.

Should I file a bugzilla?

Now that's a tough one :) At least provide some info of the steps... Vahis -- http://waxborg.servepics.com openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Tumbleweed 2.6.37.1-14-default -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 01:34:24PM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Vahis wrote:

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On 02/23/2011 07:02 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Vahis  wrote:

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...

I've been running Tumbleweed on this 11.3 almost since day 1. I can only be happy about it :)

I have the basic 11.3 repos + Packman + Tumbleweed enabled,

I'm zypper dup:ing at least daily and I've only seen things go smoothly.

I just tried it on a fileserver of ours.  (A test one).

It failed to recognize the disks and thus could not boot.

What was your starting point? 11.3?

What did you do? Added Tumbleweed repo and did a zypper dup?

That's what I had/did and it just works.

This is the third machine I've moved to Tumbleweed. The other 2 were fine.

This one has a 3ware controller that is apparently not being recognized with the 2.6.37 kernel. As far as I know the 3ware driver is in the vanilla kernel, so it has been a easy upgrade for the last several years. At this point, that controller is 6 or more years old, so I doubt it gets much testing.

I have 3 production servers still using that old hardware. All on 11.3 currently.

...

...

Should I file a bugzilla?

Now that's a tough one :)

At least provide some info of the steps...

Do I tag it as a 11.3 bug? 11.4?

I guess I could also try a 11.4 RC2 boot CD and if that fails do the bugzilla against that?

Yes, please do that, the kernels are identical at the moment, so 11.4 should fail just like Tumbleweed does at the moment :) thanks, greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 1:16 PM, Greg KH wrote:

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 12:02:29PM -0500, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Vahis wrote:

...

On 02/23/2011 11:04 AM, Stefan Seyfried wrote: <snip>

...

So people, get sane. Just try tumbleweed on a non-mission-critical machine. You'll see that it just works,

Agreed!

As a user, I've been running Tumbleweed on this 11.3 almost since day 1. I can only be happy about it :)

I have the basic 11.3 repos + Packman + Tumbleweed enabled,

I'm zypper dup:ing at least daily and I've only seen things go smoothly.

Everything seems to come closer and closer to factory which I'm running on another machine. This thing is changing towards 11.4 like magic.

...

Just use it. Try it first on not-so-important machines.

I hear you :) I'm having great time watching this metamorphosis.

Vahis

I just tried it on a fileserver of ours.  (A test one).

It failed to recognize the disks and thus could not boot.

Should I file a bugzilla?

Yes, please do so.

Why wouldn't you?  :)

I just didn't know if you're taking Tumbleweed bugzilla's or not. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Greg KH wrote:

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 01:28:48PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

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On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Sat, 2011-02-19 at 17:39 +0200, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

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On 02/19/2011 07:29 AM, Vahis wrote:

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My server is 11.2 and I'll need to change soon. I'm still dreaming of getting it somehow into a rolling mode :)

Vahis

Same here. But I am also thinking that this will be my last upgrade to 11.3 (or 11.4) :)

-- While on the subject of Tumbleweed.... If you switch from a fixed version towards Tumbleweed, how about all the add-on repo's of the OBS?

afaics, they are still 11.2, 11.3, factory, SLE and some alien stuff.

hw

I would think they could add tumbleweed as a build target for these, just like the ones you listed are now.

No, and that is one of the main reasons why I don't want to have Tumbleweed be a stand-alone "product" or "release".  To require this would add even more work to our packagers, and I do not want to do that at all.

How is is it more work? It takes all of about 10 seconds to add a new build target, and it is a one-time thing. That is the only way people will get stable, reliable packages from obs when using tumbleweed. On the contrary, I would say not having tumbleweed as a single build target will add much more work for anyone using obs. Someone wanting to build their application against tumbleweed would need to need to set up repos for, 11.4, which is pretty easy (although it is slightly harder since the default naming won't work). However, then they have to manually modify the repo to include a second build target, which would not be anywhere near as easy. Further, they would have to modify this repo structure every time tumbleweed switches to a new version of openSUSE, compared to all the other repos which you can just make and then never touch again. This also, as Cristian points out, makes things much harder for users. obs will be left without packages built against tumbleweed, which will likely lead to stability problems.

...

That would actually probably be a necessary first step, the semi-official (i.e. not home:) obs repos would need to set up tumbleweed as one of their build targets, get packages building successfully for tumbleweed, and only then think about submitting them for inclusion in tumbleweed.

Again, no, that's now how submitting stuff for tumbleweed works, sorry. It's as simple as doing your normal development and package submission you do today, yet when you feel something is "stable", either email me to let me know, or do a submitrequest for it.  That's it.

Then what happens when it doesn't build? How do you expect them to test it? You have something stable, submit it to tumbleweed, then find out half the packages are broken. What do you do? Tumbleweed now has a half-working set of packages that wrecks peoples' systems when they do an update. Wouldn't it be better for them to find out about these problems before they submit? And further, what if the person has made ten changes to their repo since the last release, all that build off each other, and they find out that the first change was what broke things with tumbleweed. Now they have to go through and rework the remaining 9 changes to deal with the problem. On the other hand, if they had a build target up front they would have known about the problem at step 1 and could have fixed it then, saving them from re-doing everything. I think a couple instances like this and people would just stop using it. Adding a new repo in obs is, as I said, a 10-second affair if you are using a normal repo. Making it as easy as adding any other openSUSE release I think would encourage people to include it just like they do every other openSUSE release, which would mean they would find out about problems early and would mean that there is more software available for tumbleweed. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 11:12 PM, Greg KH wrote:

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 10:55:23AM -0500, todd rme wrote:

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On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:47 PM, Greg KH wrote:

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On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 01:28:48PM -0500, todd rme wrote:

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On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Hans Witvliet wrote:

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On Sat, 2011-02-19 at 17:39 +0200, Angelos Tzotsos wrote:

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On 02/19/2011 07:29 AM, Vahis wrote: > > > My server is 11.2 and I'll need to change soon. > I'm still dreaming of getting it somehow into a rolling mode :) > > Vahis

Same here. But I am also thinking that this will be my last upgrade to 11.3 (or 11.4) :)

-- While on the subject of Tumbleweed.... If you switch from a fixed version towards Tumbleweed, how about all the add-on repo's of the OBS?

afaics, they are still 11.2, 11.3, factory, SLE and some alien stuff.

hw

I would think they could add tumbleweed as a build target for these, just like the ones you listed are now.

No, and that is one of the main reasons why I don't want to have Tumbleweed be a stand-alone "product" or "release".  To require this would add even more work to our packagers, and I do not want to do that at all.

How is is it more work?  It takes all of about 10 seconds to add a new build target, and it is a one-time thing.  That is the only way people will get stable, reliable packages from obs when using tumbleweed.

Packagers don't have to worry about Tumbleweed targets, I do.

Anyone setting up their own OBS repo WILL have to worry about tumbleweed targets.

...

On the contrary, I would say not having tumbleweed as a single build target will add much more work for anyone using obs.

See my other response where I detail the steps if you want your package in Tumbleweed, and how it is no extra work for you at all.

The problem isn't people who want their packages in tumbleweed, the problem is people who DON'T want their packages in tumbleweed (that is, pretty much the entire openSUSE build service).

...

Someone wanting to build their application against tumbleweed would need to need to set up repos for, 11.4, which is pretty easy (although it is slightly harder since the default naming won't work).  However, then they have to manually modify the repo to include a second build target, which would not be anywhere near as easy.  Further, they would have to modify this repo structure every time tumbleweed switches to a new version of openSUSE, compared to all the other repos which you can just make and then never touch again.

Again, if you are building for Factory, it should be fine for Tumbleweed.  If not, I will resolve it.

What if factory has an unstable version and tumbleweed has an incompatible stable veron? That isn't just likely, it is absolutely certain to happen.

...

This also, as Cristian points out, makes things much harder for users.  obs will be left without packages built against tumbleweed, which will likely lead to stability problems.

Users wouldn't be randomly picking packages from different repos, that's what Tumbleweed is supposed to solve here.

That would only work if the packages are in factory. There are a ton of packages in add-on repos that will never be in factory. There are also unstable versions of particular packages that users may want that, by definition, cannot be in tumbleweed, and often aren't even in factory.

This is ALL about making it easier for users first, and for packagers second.

Wait, what? When I brought up how having two repos makes it harder for users, you argued that you can't do it because it would make things more difficult for packagers. When I argued that it would ALSO make things more difficult for packagers, then you say that packagers don't matter and it should be made easier for users. I am getting confused about what exactly you are trying to accomplish here.

...

...

...

That would actually probably be a necessary first step, the semi-official (i.e. not home:) obs repos would need to set up tumbleweed as one of their build targets, get packages building successfully for tumbleweed, and only then think about submitting them for inclusion in tumbleweed.

Again, no, that's now how submitting stuff for tumbleweed works, sorry. It's as simple as doing your normal development and package submission you do today, yet when you feel something is "stable", either email me to let me know, or do a submitrequest for it.  That's it.

Then what happens when it doesn't build?  How do you expect them to test it?  You have something stable, submit it to tumbleweed, then find out half the packages are broken.  What do you do?  Tumbleweed now has a half-working set of packages that wrecks peoples' systems when they do an update.  Wouldn't it be better for them to find out about these problems before they submit?

That's what openSUSE:Tumbleweed:Testing is for, we've used it in the past, and will continue to use it.  The yast2 problem was because I messed up the testing, not because the proceedure was wrong.

But what is the advantage of doing it this way? What is the problem with taking 10 seconds to add a new build target? I don't understand why this is such a bad thing. I add and remove build targets all the time in my own personal OBS repos, it isn't hard.

...

And further, what if the person has made ten changes to their repo since the last release, all that build off each other, and they find out that the first change was what broke things with tumbleweed.  Now they have to go through and rework the remaining 9 changes to deal with the problem.  On the other hand, if they had a build target up front they would have known about the problem at step 1 and could have fixed it then, saving them from re-doing everything.  I think a couple instances like this and people would just stop using it.

A couple instances like that and I wouldn't take packages from that submitter anymore :)

But why not just avoid this problem entirely?

...

Adding a new repo in obs is, as I said, a 10-second affair if you are using a normal repo.  Making it as easy as adding any other openSUSE release I think would encourage people to include it just like they do every other openSUSE release, which would mean they would find out about problems early and would mean that there is more software available for tumbleweed.

See the other reasons why a whole new repo is not a viable option, sorry.

I saw those reasons, and replied to them in some detail in a separate email. As I said there, I think they are either not really problems, or should be fixed in OBS rather than using sub-optimal workarounds in tumbleweed. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Greg KH wrote:

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 03:24:06AM +0100, Stephan Kleine wrote:

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On Friday February 18 2011 23:13:41 todd rme wrote:

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Le 04/02/2011 20:05, jdd a écrit :

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Le 04/02/2011 19:57, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

...

   Same procedure, once 11.5 comes out: remove 11.4 repos and add 11.5    => zypper dup.

could it be possible to have a link "latest" or "current" to have the repos changed automagically?

jdd

I would like something like this as well.  One of the advantages I saw for tumbleweed was to be able to just set up your repositories and never have to touch them again.  I know several people who refuse to use openSUSE solely because they can't do this.  So I think being able to seamlessly upgrade to what amounts to a new openSUSE version without needing to do anything more than your everyday updates would be a huge benefit for tumbleweed.

+1 - the reason that killed Tumbleweed for me was when you (Greg) announced that you plan to always base it on whatever latest released distro instead of making it a truly rolling one.

Why?  How difficult is it _really_ to edit 3 files, every 8 months, changing a "3" to a "4", and then a "11.4" to a "12.0"?  Heck, if it's that tough, I'll make up a script that everyone can run to do this :)

I can tell you that I know several people who will not do this. It isn't just a matter of this, you also have to keep track of the openSUSE news as well. They just don't have the time to worry about this, they have enough work on their plate without it.

...

IIRC you back then said that linking packages didn't work out. Can you please elaborate a bit on this part and why since I don't really get that part? (while I'm not exactly new to OBS and how linking works there)

Ok, I decided not to do this for a number of reasons:  - as mentioned later in this email thread, I don't want people to have    to have a whole new repo to build against.

But they will if they want to build any packages that build against something in tumbleweed. And not doing this makes building anything against tumbleweed much, much harder. And adding a new build target is practically trivial if it is a single target.

 - I want to build on the solid base of our releases, and not require    the build service, and mirrors, to have to send out an entire copy    of the existing 11.4 (or whatever the base is) packages to the world    for no reason.

Then why can't it just mirror the 11.4 packages that aren't different in tumbleweed? Just have those be direct copies (or even symlinks or hard links in the filesystem). I know this is not possible under obs, but it is openSUSE build service. Surely if there is a feature you need to make this an optimal experience I would think that it could be implemented. Can't you talk to the people behind obs and get the features you need for tumbleweed implemented? I am sure this would have other uses as well. I know packman is switching obs 2.1 and had to do their own hacks to do pretty much the same thing with their own repo, so it seems this is a feature that would be useful more generally. So rather than having to cut corners to work with how obs is currently set up, wouldn't it be better to get the features you need implemented? You were talking about getting this implemented for the release after 11.4, surely that is enough time for something like this to be implemented in obs.

 - versions get out of whack, so it looks like you are "downgrading"    when installing Tumbleweed.  This causes confusion and has the    potential to cause future updates to get out of sync without making    it easy to recognize

obs should have a system to make sure packages in a certain repo always have version numbers higher than in another repo. Once again, this might make life easier for groups like packman as well.

 - Updates get messy, and slower.  I would have to monitor the updates    channel and rebuild everyone of them for Tumbleweed users, ideally    the instant they show up in the Update channel, due to security    updates.  If we don't have a whole copy of the distro in Tumbleweed,    we can rely on the great work the openSUSE security and maintenance    team does with updates for bugs and security issues.

If the updates repo has tumbleweed as a build target, why would you have to do anything?

 - reverting back.  It's simpler to revert back from Tumbleweed to the    "base" distro by just disabling a single repo, instead of disabling    and then enabling the original ones.  This makes it easier to roll    back specific packages if problems occur, and gives me a simpler way    to recover from errors that happen in the Tumbleweed process (like    the recent zypper and libzypp and yast2 mess that happened a few    weeks ago.)

So four clicks instead of two? Weren't you talking about how manually changing the numbers in the repo data for anywhere from three to a dozen repos was easy? Yet clicking one additional check box is too hard? It seems this is making an unusual case, rolling back a release, a tiny bit easier in exchange for making a typical use case, updating your system, considerably harder. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org