[opensuse-factory] Next steps for Firefox on TW
Hi, I was pinged several times during the last weeks why Firefox is on ESR on TW and when it will be updated. As the current round of updates (to 52.3 and 55) is no done it's time to pick up the discussion again. People are rightfully asking why we cannot update to latest Firefox on a rolling distro at least and that is right. Let me repeat what have been the doubts doing so up to now/recently: (basically from https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2017-04/msg00926.html ) - Firefox requires rust mandatorily now to build and rust needs presumably updated with every Firefox release in worst case. I think we (rust maintainer specifally) agreed that this is acceptable - Tumbleweed still supports i586 while Firefox requires SSE2 now (i686) -> This has been adressed meanwhile (took some weeks to get into Tumbleweed) by building rust to build the i686 toolchain. This somehow leads to the fact that some modern parts of openSUSE TW will be excluded now for i586 users. Anyway this blocker is currently resolved. - (almost) missing NPAPI support: I know there are quite some people who rely on Java plugins still. This fact leads to a requirement to add Firefox ESR to TW in parallel. (Please let me know if you don't think so ;-)) - Firefox 52 and 55 profiles are incompatible (more specific backwards incompatible) So to summarize it all leads to the current state and proposal: - it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now - I will add Firefox ESR as a _new_ package to TW called firefox-esr (recognize the small inconsistency in naming but MozillaFirefox is called like that for historical reasons. It provides also "firefox" as virtual name since many many years.) (still can be discussed) - the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act. - there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing! So this would be my proposal but I'm still looking for feedback especially to the last item. If possible please keep replies focused to the topic. Thanks, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi.
- the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act.
My first thought was: 1. new package MozillaFirefox-esr replaces current MozillaFirefox<=52 2. next MozillaFirefox have to explicitly conflict MozillaFirefox<=52 Is such scenario possible?
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
I afraid that is overkill -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 2017-08-11 at 18:11 +1000, Konstantin Voinov wrote:
Hi.
- the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act.
My first thought was: 1. new package MozillaFirefox-esr replaces current MozillaFirefox<=52 2. next MozillaFirefox have to explicitly conflict MozillaFirefox<=52
Is such scenario possible?
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
I afraid that is overkill
I agree. I would prefer exclusion here. -- SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb Alberto Planas Dominguez:
On Fri, 2017-08-11 at 18:11 +1000, Konstantin Voinov wrote:
Hi.
- the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act.
My first thought was: 1. new package MozillaFirefox-esr replaces current MozillaFirefox<=52
this needs quite some exceptions based on the channel we ship the packages I fear. Need to think about it but could be flaky.
2. next MozillaFirefox have to explicitly conflict MozillaFirefox<=52
conflicts between esr and non-esr are possible and are already implemented. It's exactly what is happening in the mozilla repo where we have MozillaFirefox 55.0 and firefox-esr 52.3 conflicting each other.
Is such scenario possible?
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
I afraid that is overkill
I agree. I would prefer exclusion here.
Doable but it doesn't solve the problem when people start running Firefox 55 and want to switch back to 52. I have no idea what will happen exactly. The statement in the 55.0 release notes: "Firefox does not support downgrades, even though this may have worked in past versions. Users who install Firefox 55+ and later downgrade to an earlier version may experience issues with Firefox." In mozilla I was able to easily ignore that fact but when shipping two variants in TW I am/was not sure if this is acceptable. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb Alberto Planas Dominguez:
[...] I agree. I would prefer exclusion here.
Doable but it doesn't solve the problem when people start running Firefox 55 and want to switch back to 52. I have no idea what will happen exactly.
/usr/bin/firefox is a shell script. Maybe it would be possible to add some lines that create a backup of ~/.mozilla/firefox if an upgrade to non-esr is detected? Even if we don't go as far as making the way backwards easy and transparent, the backup would at least allow users to do something manually rather than ending up with messed up settings. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:35 schrieb Ludwig Nussel:
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Am 11.08.2017 um 10:17 schrieb Alberto Planas Dominguez:
[...] I agree. I would prefer exclusion here.
Doable but it doesn't solve the problem when people start running Firefox 55 and want to switch back to 52. I have no idea what will happen exactly.
/usr/bin/firefox is a shell script. Maybe it would be possible to add some lines that create a backup of ~/.mozilla/firefox if an upgrade to non-esr is detected? Even if we don't go as far as making the way backwards easy and transparent, the backup would at least allow users to do something manually rather than ending up with messed up settings.
good idea. Probably not too easy though since there could be multiple profiles and profiles are nowadays split between .mozilla and .cache. Not sure when I can start looking into it so any help would be appreciated. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer composed on 2017-08-11 03:51 (UTC+0200):
How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that?
No! As a Mozilla user since Netscape 2.02, I find upstream's release often policy is the antithesis of stability. Too much changes too fast. I don't believe enough people are testing since the quick release cycles began, and particularly since the foundational component overhaul explosion began (Rust, GTK3, Servo, CSS4, chromification) and GTK3 building began. ESR in TW and latest only in BS:Mozilla gets my vote if I have one. I use latest only for bug testing. SeaMonkey is my primary. ESR in latest and prior versions are my more used Firefoxes. I mostly keep no less than 5 profiles running at once, each with task sets that minimally overlap. http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 is a usability problem here without a practical solution. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 04:49:47 -0400 Felix Miata <mrmazda@earthlink.net> wrote:
Wolfgang Rosenauer composed on 2017-08-11 03:51 (UTC+0200):
How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that?
No!
...
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 is a usability problem here without a practical solution.
What is the remaining problem with that bug? The font issue is supposedly fixed with the updated GTK3 packages. Cursor not matching KDE theme is solved manually by setting a matching GTK cursor theme. Understandably the default cursor being too small may cause usability issues but it can be set to a usable cursor size in practice (eg with lxappearance). For me it's the KDE applications that do not honor cursor settings. Thanks Michal -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Michal Suchánek composed on 2017-08-11 20:20 (UTC+0200):
On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 04:49:47 -0400> Felix Miata wrote:
http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 is a usability problem here without a practical solution.
What is the remaining problem with that bug?
You tell me: https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/510082 All I understand is state "declined", and no activity in 3 weeks.
The font issue is supposedly fixed with the updated GTK3 packages.
It's not fixed until fix is incorporated via standard repos. The bug is in NEEDINFO state but I don't understand why other than the build request was multipy denied. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, First of all, many thanks for taking care of this. I just installed version 55 from the mozilla repo and it's blazing fast! On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer <wolfgang
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
My suggestion would be to disallow parallel installation. As for warning the users, maybe for a transition period ( 2 weeks? ) we can present a "license agreement" when upgrading the firefox package version 55 or newer, similar to what we do for some Mesa/nouveau stuff, telling users what the consequences are. I am not sure though if it's possible to show the license agreement only when upgrading. For fresh installs it would be useless and annoying. Robert -- http://robert.muntea.nu/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 2017-08-11 09:51, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
Hi,
...
So to summarize it all leads to the current state and proposal:
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now - I will add Firefox ESR as a _new_ package to TW called firefox-esr (recognize the small inconsistency in naming but MozillaFirefox is called like that for historical reasons. It provides also "firefox" as virtual name since many many years.) (still can be discussed) - the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act. - there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
So this would be my proposal but I'm still looking for feedback especially to the last item. If possible please keep replies focused to the topic.
It all seems good to me. Suggest you always create the .mozilla-esr config as backup in case a user wants to go back later (even if the esr version is not installed initially). Or, create a backup. Whatever done may be like an experiment for what to do for Leap 14.x :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
On 08/11/2017 02:51 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that?
I'm okay with not allowing it, or at least giving warnings if someone tries it. However, there's the possibility that Tumbleweed will have the new MozillaFirefox while Leap will have the "esr" version. Since I tend to backup stuff between system, my tentative plan will be: rename ".mozilla" to ".mozilla.esr" Make a complete copy of the directory tree to ".mozilla.std" Make ".mozilla" a symlink to one or the other of those, depending on which is appropriate. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Neil Rickert composed on 2017-08-11 13:03 (UTC-0500):
...Since I tend to backup stuff between system, my tentative plan will be:
rename ".mozilla" to ".mozilla.esr"
Make a complete copy of the directory tree to ".mozilla.std"
Make ".mozilla" a symlink to one or the other of those, depending on which is appropriate.
I don't know whether that would be workable for people with multiple profiles and/or multiple Mozilla products installed. None of my 10+ Firefox profiles live in ~/.mozilla/firefox/. All their caches live on a totally different filesystems. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hello, Am Freitag, 11. August 2017, 09:51:37 CEST schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
- (almost) missing NPAPI support: I know there are quite some people who rely on Java plugins still. This fact leads to a requirement to add Firefox ESR to TW in parallel. (Please let me know if you don't think so ;-))
Personally I don't need it - but I understand that some people might still need it.
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
Parallel installations would be perfect, but if it's too much work, having MozillaFirefox and firefox-esr conflict is also ok. Unless someone steps up to help, you'll have to do the work, so you decide ;-) BTW: AFAIK Debian ships firefox and firefox-esr. I don't know the details, but a quick look indicates that they don't have conflicts. I know for sure [1] that Debian uses /usr/lib/firefox-esr/ paths, so it's likely that they allow parallel installation. Do you know the Debian maintainer so that you could ask if/how they handle the user profile? If not, I can try to get you in contact via the Debian AppArmor maintainers ;-) Regards, Christian Boltz [1] I've seen an AppArmor profile they want to include ;-) Also, https://packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/firefox-esr/filelist is quite helpful ;-) -- Because dirkmueller is bugowner and two times maintainer (wow!) it seems he is three times responsible (WOW!) in contrast to you, you are only responsible (i.e. only ordinary one times responsible ;-) [Johannes Meixner in opensuse-packaging about an osc maintainer output] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Christian Boltz composed on 2017-08-12 00:34 (UTC+0200):
BTW: AFAIK Debian ships firefox and firefox-esr. I don't know the details, but a quick look indicates that they don't have conflicts. I know for sure [1] that Debian uses /usr/lib/firefox-esr/ paths, so it's likely that they allow parallel installation.
What kind of quick look did you take? It does not look to me like Debian ships in parallel, at least, not through standard repos in its latest LTS release: # grep RETT /etc/os-release PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch)" # apt install firefox firefox-esr Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done Package firefox is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source E: Package 'firefox' has no installation candidate # apt search ire | grep ox | grep -v l10n v firefox-adblock-plus - v firefox-adblock-plus-element-hiding-helper - v firefox-all-in-one-sidebar - v firefox-autofill-forms - v firefox-automatic-save-folder - v firefox-branding-iceweasel - v firefox-certificatepatrol - v firefox-classic-theme-restorer - v firefox-colorfultabs - v firefox-cookie-monster - v firefox-custom-tab-width - v firefox-debianbuttons - v firefox-dom-inspector - v firefox-downthemall - p firefox-esr - Mozilla Firefox web browser - Extended Support Release (ESR) v firefox-esr-adblock-plus - v firefox-esr-adblock-plus-element-hiding-helper - v firefox-esr-all-in-one-sidebar - v firefox-esr-autofill-forms - v firefox-esr-automatic-save-folder - v firefox-esr-certificatepatrol - v firefox-esr-classic-theme-restorer - v firefox-esr-colorfultabs - v firefox-esr-cookie-monster - v firefox-esr-custom-tab-width - p firefox-esr-dbg - Debugging symbols for Firefox ESR v firefox-esr-debianbuttons - p firefox-esr-dev - Development files for the Gecko engine library v firefox-esr-dom-inspector - v firefox-esr-downthemall - v firefox-esr-firebug - v firefox-esr-firegestures - v firefox-esr-firetray - v firefox-esr-firexpath - v firefox-esr-flashblock - v firefox-esr-flashgot - v firefox-esr-form-history-control - v firefox-esr-foxyproxy-standard - v firefox-esr-gnome-keyring - v firefox-esr-greasemonkey - v firefox-esr-https-everywhere - v firefox-esr-iceweasel-branding - v firefox-esr-itsalltext - v firefox-esr-kwallet5 - v firefox-esr-lightbeam - v firefox-esr-livehttpheaders - v firefox-esr-noscript - v firefox-esr-openinbrowser - v firefox-esr-password-editor - v firefox-esr-pdf.js - v firefox-esr-personasplus - v firefox-esr-perspectives - v firefox-esr-pwdhash - v firefox-esr-refcontrol - v firefox-esr-reloadevery - v firefox-esr-requestpolicy - v firefox-esr-sage - v firefox-esr-scrapbook - v firefox-esr-self-destructing-cookies - v firefox-esr-status4evar - v firefox-esr-stylish - v firefox-esr-tabmixplus - v firefox-esr-toggle-proxy - v firefox-esr-treestyletab - v firefox-esr-ublock-origin - v firefox-esr-uppity - v firefox-esr-useragentswitcher - v firefox-esr-webdeveloper - v firefox-esr-y-u-no-validate - v firefox-esr-zotero - v firefox-firebug - v firefox-firegestures - v firefox-firetray - v firefox-firexpath - v firefox-flashblock - v firefox-flashgot - v firefox-form-history-control - v firefox-foxyproxy-standard - v firefox-gnome-keyring - v firefox-greasemonkey - v firefox-https-everywhere - v firefox-iceweasel-branding - v firefox-itsalltext - v firefox-kwallet5 - v firefox-lightbeam - v firefox-livehttpheaders - v firefox-noscript - v firefox-openinbrowser - v firefox-password-editor - v firefox-pdf.js - v firefox-personasplus - v firefox-perspectives - v firefox-pwdhash - v firefox-refcontrol - v firefox-reloadevery - v firefox-requestpolicy - v firefox-sage - v firefox-scrapbook - v firefox-self-destructing-cookies - v firefox-status4evar - v firefox-stylish - v firefox-tabmixplus - v firefox-toggle-proxy - v firefox-treestyletab - v firefox-ublock-origin - v firefox-uppity - v firefox-useragentswitcher - v firefox-webdeveloper - v firefox-y-u-no-validate - v firefox-zotero - p firefoxdriver - Firefox WebDriver support p firejail - sandbox to restrict the application environment p firetools - Qt frontend for the Firejail application sandbox p fusiondirectory-theme-oxygen - Icon theme Oxygen for FusionDirectory p mail-expire - Utility to extract outdated messages from mbox files p xul-ext-firebug - web development plugin for Firefox p xul-ext-firetray - system tray extension for Firefox, Thunderbird, etc.
Do you know the Debian maintainer so that you could ask if/how they > handle the user profile? If not, I can try to get you in contact via the Debian AppArmor maintainers ;-) -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 12.08.2017 um 00:34 schrieb Christian Boltz:
Parallel installations would be perfect, but if it's too much work, having MozillaFirefox and firefox-esr conflict is also ok. Unless someone steps up to help, you'll have to do the work, so you decide ;-)
BTW: AFAIK Debian ships firefox and firefox-esr. I don't know the details, but a quick look indicates that they don't have conflicts. I know for sure [1] that Debian uses /usr/lib/firefox-esr/ paths, so it's likely that they allow parallel installation.
I just checked Debian 9. I do not see that they are shipping regular Firefox but only ESR (at least in official repositories). In any case from a quick check of their package and behaviour they may allow parallel installation looking at the prefixes at least partly. Firefox is installed in firefox-esr directories indeed. But the package also provides /usr/bin/firefox. Also the profile directory is default with .mozilla/firefox.
Do you know the Debian maintainer so that you could ask if/how they handle the user profile? If not, I can try to get you in contact via the Debian AppArmor maintainers ;-)
I know him. At least I think it is still the same guy who works for Mozilla for several years now so I could ask him but for the moment it seems pretty obvious for me that they basically do pretty much the same as we do atm with the exception their package is called already *esr Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 11.08.2017 um 09:51 schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
Hi,
I was pinged several times during the last weeks why Firefox is on ESR on TW and when it will be updated. As the current round of updates (to 52.3 and 55) is no done it's time to pick up the discussion again> ... So to summarize it all leads to the current state and proposal:
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now - I will add Firefox ESR as a _new_ package to TW called firefox-esr (recognize the small inconsistency in naming but MozillaFirefox is called like that for historical reasons. It provides also "firefox" as virtual name since many many years.) (still can be discussed) - the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act. - there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
So this would be my proposal but I'm still looking for feedback especially to the last item. If possible please keep replies focused to the topic.
Thanks, Wolfgang
Maybe a little bit OT, but important (for me): I just upgraded my FF to version 55 on Tumbleweed from the Mozilla repo to test it. This replaced java 1.8 with java 9. And with this version of java 9 java webstart (javaws) is not available or still linked to java 1.8, which does not work any more. Will this java upgrade happen, when FF 55 comes to Tumbleweed? I need to use java webstart and if it doesn't work with FF 55 it is a blocker for me. regards, Hendrik -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Hendrik Woltersdorf:
Maybe a little bit OT, but important (for me):
I just upgraded my FF to version 55 on Tumbleweed from the Mozilla repo to test it. This replaced java 1.8 with java 9. And with this version of java 9 java webstart (javaws) is not available or still linked to java 1.8, which does not work any more. Will this java upgrade happen, when FF 55 comes to Tumbleweed? I need to use java webstart and if it doesn't work with FF 55 it is a blocker for me.
I think this is because FF 55 required a new NSS and as Java is currently built for Leap and TW it implicitely requires a certain Java version. When you decided to update NSS the resolver apparently came to the conclusion that Java8 will break and found Java9 not to break triggering this update. But that's just my theory. There is for sure nothing in the Firefox itself which would cause this. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:40 schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Hendrik Woltersdorf:
Maybe a little bit OT, but important (for me):
I just upgraded my FF to version 55 on Tumbleweed from the Mozilla repo to test it. This replaced java 1.8 with java 9. And with this version of java 9 java webstart (javaws) is not available or still linked to java 1.8, which does not work any more. Will this java upgrade happen, when FF 55 comes to Tumbleweed? I need to use java webstart and if it doesn't work with FF 55 it is a blocker for me.
I think this is because FF 55 required a new NSS and as Java is currently built for Leap and TW it implicitely requires a certain Java version. When you decided to update NSS the resolver apparently came to the conclusion that Java8 will break and found Java9 not to break triggering this update. But that's just my theory. There is for sure nothing in the Firefox itself which would cause this.
Wolfgang
I just downgraded java to 1.8, to get a working webstart. This "broke" NSS. Fine with me, but maybe not a viable solution for everyone. IMHO if java 9 becomes a requirement in Tumbleweed (instead of java 1.8), it should be feature complete. But this is getting OT now. Hendrik -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:59 schrieb Hendrik Woltersdorf:
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:40 schrieb Wolfgang Rosenauer:
Am 12.08.2017 um 09:19 schrieb Hendrik Woltersdorf:
Maybe a little bit OT, but important (for me):
I just upgraded my FF to version 55 on Tumbleweed from the Mozilla repo to test it. This replaced java 1.8 with java 9. And with this version of java 9 java webstart (javaws) is not available or still linked to java 1.8, which does not work any more. Will this java upgrade happen, when FF 55 comes to Tumbleweed? I need to use java webstart and if it doesn't work with FF 55 it is a blocker for me.
I think this is because FF 55 required a new NSS and as Java is currently built for Leap and TW it implicitely requires a certain Java version. When you decided to update NSS the resolver apparently came to the conclusion that Java8 will break and found Java9 not to break triggering this update. But that's just my theory. There is for sure nothing in the Firefox itself which would cause this.
Wolfgang
I just downgraded java to 1.8, to get a working webstart. This "broke" NSS. Fine with me, but maybe not a viable solution for everyone.
IMHO if java 9 becomes a requirement in Tumbleweed (instead of java 1.8), it should be feature complete. But this is getting OT now.
BTW, I guess nothing is broken in reality anyway. Java is using internal interfaces of NSS which are not guaranteed to be stable but then again they are not changing everytime neither. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
- (almost) missing NPAPI support: I know there are quite some people who rely on Java plugins still.
Yep, that dependency won't go away until the hardware is dead. (usually it's monitoring/configuration apps for various kind of hardware). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (16.1°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now
Great. Thanks for your work. I can imagine that the upstream tool chain changes are a major PITA.
- I will add Firefox ESR as a _new_ package to TW called firefox-esr (recognize the small inconsistency in naming but MozillaFirefox is called like that for historical reasons. It provides also "firefox" as virtual name since many many years.) (still can be discussed) - the result is that current MozillaFirefox users will be upgraded to latest version and people who want to stay with ESR need to act.
Ok.
- there is one main question which I'm a bit undecided still: How to handle parallel installations? Do we want to allow that? This will need some patching work since otherwise both will run on the same profile. That is also the reason why switching between both is dangerous (remember the incompatible statement above). There is a technical way to circumvent this (still to be verified) by changing the profile patch for ESR away from .mozilla to something else (.mozilla-esr?) but this will be an openSUSE specific thing!
I'm inclined to say the user is on its own anyway. Regarding profile compability there are many ways a user can shoot himself in the foot (e.g. by install Mozilla's own builds back and forth). Provided it makes sense at all IMHO the firefox upstream developers should implement a warning dialogue for preventing the user to accidently use an incompatible profile. It's not Linux distribution packagers' business. Ciao, Michael.
Hello, On 08/11/2017 09:51 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
- (almost) missing NPAPI support: I know there are quite some people who rely on Java plugins still. This fact leads to a requirement to add Firefox ESR to TW in parallel. (Please let me know if you don't think so ;-))
I do not think may people care fatally, or if they do they we may still take the decision to longer offer it in Tumbleweed.
- Firefox 52 and 55 profiles are incompatible (more specific backwards incompatible)
There is some info in that: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1053314#c3 Firefox profiles for version 55+ can be "refreshed" to work with Firefox 52 via about:support (though I have not tested this personally). Presumably this would also work for certain other "old" versions of Firefox. See: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1357428#c2
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now
I think this should be done now for Tumbleweed, and the fast release cycle be followed going forward in Tumbleweed. This is entirely within the Tumbleweed development model and positioning. I also think we do not need to ship an ESR version in parallel on TW. For Leap maintenance staying on the ESR version remains feasible and my preferred method, with the occasional jump to the next ESR when it's ready. Andreas -- Andreas Stieger <astieger@suse.de> Project Manager Security SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Hi, Am 04.09.2017 um 12:18 schrieb Andreas Stieger:
On 08/11/2017 09:51 AM, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
- (almost) missing NPAPI support: I know there are quite some people who rely on Java plugins still. This fact leads to a requirement to add Firefox ESR to TW in parallel. (Please let me know if you don't think so ;-))
I do not think may people care fatally, or if they do they we may still take the decision to longer offer it in Tumbleweed.
ok, fine for me. So first update to >= 55 and then see if we really need to provide ESR52.
- Firefox 52 and 55 profiles are incompatible (more specific backwards incompatible)
There is some info in that: https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1053314#c3
Firefox profiles for version 55+ can be "refreshed" to work with Firefox 52 via about:support (though I have not tested this personally). Presumably this would also work for certain other "old" versions of Firefox. See: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1357428#c2
As far as I know the "refresh" function just resets _everything_ to default. So the user will lose most of his personal settings doing so but then honestly I haven't tried it yet.
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now
I think this should be done now for Tumbleweed, and the fast release cycle be followed going forward in Tumbleweed. This is entirely within the Tumbleweed development model and positioning. I also think we do not need to ship an ESR version in parallel on TW.
ok, we'll move on like this but only in a few days since I'm currently away with limited chances to do anything. Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
Andreas Stieger writes:
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now
I think this should be done now for Tumbleweed, and the fast release cycle be followed going forward in Tumbleweed. This is entirely within the Tumbleweed development model and positioning. I also think we do not need to ship an ESR version in parallel on TW.
As a TW user I'd rather have a working ESR than a not-quite-working 55+ if they can not be made to co-exist. I use a bunch of extensions that probably aren't quite ready yet to make that jump. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ SD adaptation for Waldorf microQ V2.22R2: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 5 September 2017 19:47:58 BST Achim Gratz wrote:
Andreas Stieger writes:
- it's technically possible to update MozillaFirefox to 55.0 now
I think this should be done now for Tumbleweed, and the fast release cycle be followed going forward in Tumbleweed. This is entirely within the Tumbleweed development model and positioning. I also think we do not need to ship an ESR version in parallel on TW.
As a TW user I'd rather have a working ESR than a not-quite-working 55+ if they can not be made to co-exist. I use a bunch of extensions that probably aren't quite ready yet to make that jump.
As a TW user I'm already dying to upgrade to 55, having already ensured that my extensions are compatible. This is Tumbleweed, not Leap; I respectfully suggest that if you want to keep an older version of a package, you prevent its upgrades yourself via Yast. (This probably sounds snarkier than is intended; I just want the release team to know there are those of us patiently waiting for a package whose official stable release is already a month old) Kind regards, Huw
huw writes:
As a TW user I'm already dying to upgrade to 55, having already ensured that my extensions are compatible.
Yeah, so how did you do that? I'd have an older machine for testing, maybe it's less of a problem than I think. I just can't test FF55 anywhere else since I need Java on those machines.
This is Tumbleweed, not Leap;
That doesn't explain anything, nor should it make one choice more or less likely than the other w.r.t. how that particular transistion is handled for FireFox. I am using Tumbleweed for a lot longer than Leap existed even as a name and I've lived through a number of re-definitions of what exactly "Tumbleweed" is supposed to be.
I respectfully suggest that if you want to keep an older version of a package, you prevent its upgrades yourself via Yast.
I can do that, but it won't get me the ESR updates. There's probably a solution for that also, but the less fiddly, the better.
(This probably sounds snarkier than is intended; I just want the release team to know there are those of us patiently waiting for a package whose official stable release is already a month old)
It sounded exactly as snarky as you wanted it to, so just own it. Anyway, there was discussion of having both ESR and 55+ as mutually exclusive packages in TW at least for some time to allow folks to switch on their own schedule (within reason) and I still think that was the better idea. Regards, Achim. -- +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+ Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER: http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On 05.09.2017 21:50, Achim Gratz wrote:
Anyway, there was discussion of having both ESR and 55+ as mutually exclusive packages in TW at least for some time to allow folks to switch on their own schedule (within reason) and I still think that was the better idea.
+1 from my side ... aware that I can only state my wishes here - and I don't envy the packager(s) who need to maintain two versions of FF, one is PITA enough. I can only offer some bribe to the packager (sth like a beer or two) if he/she happens to be in Freiburg/DE or Helsingborg/SE ;-) -- Cahn's Axiom: When all else fails, read the instructions. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
On Tuesday, 5 September 2017 20:50:12 BST Achim Gratz wrote:
It sounded exactly as snarky as you wanted it to, so just own it.
Who exactly do you think you are? You don't get to tell me what I mean with MY OWN words. I was in a rush when I wrote my earlier message, realised it might have been MIS-interpreted as snarky, and hastily added a disclaimer to that effect. Argue with my position on Firefox all you like, but don't you dare tell me my own mind. Huw
On Montag, 4. September 2017 12:18:22 CEST Andreas Stieger wrote:
Firefox profiles for version 55+ can be "refreshed" to work with Firefox 52 via about:support (though I have not tested this personally). Presumably this would also work for certain other "old" versions of Firefox.
This "refresh" will remove all addons and reset all user settings to the browser default. -- Veni, vidi, vici. [I came, I saw, I conquered]. -- Gaius Julius Caesar -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org
participants (18)
-
Achim Gratz -
Alberto Planas Dominguez -
Andreas Mahel -
Andreas Stieger -
Carlos E. R. -
Christian Boltz -
Felix Miata -
Hendrik Woltersdorf -
huw -
Konstantin Voinov -
Ludwig Nussel -
mararm -
Michael Ströder -
Michal Suchánek -
Neil Rickert -
Per Jessen -
Robert Munteanu -
Wolfgang Rosenauer