On Tue, Dec 3, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Ignacio Areta wrote:

In my case, I have 2 wired cards. In ifup, I only can switch with these card if I restart te system, becauase systemctl restart network.service doesn't work, probably because it is an ugly shell script. With NetworkManager

With NetworkManager, management of system-wide interfaces was quite broken, at least last time I tried (12.1 perhaps). User-manageable interfaces only start working after you log in, and that can be a problem for a few services (think shared printers, or shared whatever). In essence, ifup is the only mature solution for system-wide interfaces, and it works perfectly fine for me. I have a desktop 12.X (can't remember the X) with ifup-managed USB wireless (because its onboard ethernet adapter is busted) and it works flawless, it even restarts properly after suspend. If you have problems with ifup, report them as bugs. It's not a design limitation so it doesn't warrant a default change. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/03/2013 08:10 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 00:00:18 -0200, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

With NetworkManager, management of system-wide interfaces was quite broken, at least last time I tried (12.1 perhaps). User-manageable interfaces only start working after you log in, and that can be a problem for a few services (think shared printers, or shared whatever).

Yep, and this is a big problem for systems that don't have a user login but provide services (headless systems should always use ifup, admittedly that's not a primary install base here). I know when my wife's laptop starts freaking out, one thing that can happen is that the GUI doesn't start up completely, and since it hasn't started up, there's no network access for me to connect to to diagnose it.

ifup is simple, stable, and reliable. That's enough reason to keep it as the default.

My experience is that if you install on a system with a single wired interface, the installer selects ifup, but if you also have wireless, NM is the method. I don't have any systems with 2 wired interfaces, thus I don't know what happens. To me, trying to control wireless with ifup is an impossible task. I have 5 APs and about 30 different wireless interfaces that I use for testing. Generating all the necessary ifcfg-wlXXXX files would be the only thing I would ever get done. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/03/2013 09:26 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

On Wednesday 04 December 2013 06:39:58 Larry Finger wrote:

...

To me, trying to control wireless with ifup is an impossible task. I have 5 APs and about 30 different wireless interfaces that I use for testing. Generating all the necessary ifcfg-wlXXXX files would be the only thing I would ever get done.

ifup/wi-fi works well here on a notebook, at least on oS 11.4.

It works here with 13.1, and I have one machine that runs text only with ifup for network control. For machines that run X, I have an AP using WPA2 with 802.11n, another for WPA with 802.11g, and a third for WEP. To test a particular device with each of these, all I need to do is click on the NM applet display. With ifup, I would need to either edit the ifcfg-xxxx file, or run YaST and reconfigure the device. Considering multiple wireless devices makes the problem even more complicated with ifup. Larry -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Larry Finger - 20:39 3.12.13 wrote:

To me, trying to control wireless with ifup is an impossible task. I have 5 APs and about 30 different wireless interfaces that I use for testing. Generating all the necessary ifcfg-wlXXXX files would be the only thing I would ever get done.

In config file, you can provide full path to custom wpa_supplicant file where you have all the information stored and afterward you can even use wpa_gui (probably would work even without the custom config file). This is how I have my network setup on my laptop. -- Michal HRUSECKY SUSE LINUX, s.r.o. openSUSE Team Lihovarska 1060/12 PGP 0xFED656F6 19000 Praha 9 mhrusecky[at]suse.cz Czech Republic http://michal.hrusecky.net http://www.suse.cz -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ignacio Areta wrote:

So, ifup only works if you have a desktop with a single wired card

No, it works very well in any of our systems - servers, desktops, laptops, one card, two cards, multi-port cards, wifi, fibre, ptp, vlan etc. I can assure you, if ifup didn't work across the board, you would hear a lot of unhappy people here.

In my case, I have 2 wired cards. In ifup, I only can switch with these card if I restart te system, becauase systemctl restart network.service doesn't work,

Then you ought to blame network.service. BTW, without knowing the context, you could simply "ifdown eth0" and "ifup eth1" or vice versa. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-2.8°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 4:43 AM, C wrote:

...

...

In my case, I have 2 wired cards. In ifup, I only can switch with these card if I restart te system, becauase systemctl restart network.service doesn't work,

Then you ought to blame network.service.

BTW, without knowing the context, you could simply "ifdown eth0" and "ifup eth1" or vice versa.

You can... I can... can a new openSUSE user? Nope. So, instead of making life better for new users and improving openSUSE for new users, we say things like "it's easy just configure your supplicant file" or "why can't you ifup/ifdown" and so on.

I don't say that. I say "Use yast", which, incidentally, is our super-duper configuration tool. That works. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 5:02 AM, C wrote:

...

...

You can... I can... can a new openSUSE user? Nope. So, instead of making life better for new users and improving openSUSE for new users, we say things like "it's easy just configure your supplicant file" or "why can't you ifup/ifdown" and so on.

I don't say that.

I say "Use yast", which, incidentally, is our super-duper configuration tool. That works.

Ha... have you actually tried setting up WiFi using YaST? And then compared to NM? NM is easy to use to connect to a WiFi node - even for new users. YaST is not.. .in any way shape or form. YaST is an awesome tool, and I use it a lot, but using it as the default tool for setting up WiFi on the move... on laptops.. on tablets... it's a no-go. It does not work... not technically.. end user experience. It requres a high level of technical knowledge that goes well beyond the average user.

But that's not the default. The default for wifi is NM. You're using a false premise in that whole last e-mail, and this whole thread frankly. I've installed enough laptops to notice that the intention is to make NM default on laptops and ifup on desktops. If that is not the case with some installation of yours, it's *a* *bug*. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 04 December 2013 08.43:50 C wrote:

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:09 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Ignacio Areta wrote:

...

So, ifup only works if you have a desktop with a single wired card

No, it works very well in any of our systems - servers, desktops, laptops, one card, two cards, multi-port cards, wifi, fibre, ptp, vlan etc. I can assure you, if ifup didn't work across the board, you would hear a lot of unhappy people here.

The new users never (rarely) use this mailing list. This mailing list is full of us crufty old farts who have been here forever. New users complain to me.. not the list.

...

...

In my case, I have 2 wired cards. In ifup, I only can switch with these card if I restart te system, becauase systemctl restart network.service doesn't work,

Then you ought to blame network.service.

BTW, without knowing the context, you could simply "ifdown eth0" and "ifup eth1" or vice versa.

You can... I can... can a new openSUSE user? Nope. So, instead of making life better for new users and improving openSUSE for new users, we say things like "it's easy just configure your supplicant file" or "why can't you ifup/ifdown" and so on.

There is a discussion over on opensuse-project about why we're not attracting new users... this is a prime example. If we can't see past our own noses here... we will never resolve the issues raised on the project list.

C

Perhaps I should have shut-up my mouth, but I can't why are you sticking on new user case always. I'm mostly interested by having tools that does the job. ip tools ( ifconfig & co are obsolete from a long time now ) have to work, are the perfect solution for any configuration that are not following the grandma paradigm, and there's a lot. Networkmanager has to work (well we wait that from the last 4 years, and 4 rewrite) when it has to be used. Alternative like wicked are not (yet) available to resolve the both case in a new efficient way. Are we perfectible in the way we pick one or other solution? Certainly. But it's not a white or black situation. We're in a sensible area of grays. -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch openSUSE Member GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.12.2013 09:45, schrieb Michal Kubecek:

But sometimes I feel like we focus on what new users would like (or what we believe they would) a bit too much - and ignore that users we already have might be unhappy with those changes.

Amen. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

why are you sticking on new user case always.

New users are part of our "bread and butter". Without them, we are just an openSUSE country club with a dwindling population of aging members who reminisce about the good old days before systemd.. about the time when we still called our network card eth0... like the "Four Yorkshiremen" of Monty Python (I hope that as a potential openSUSE board member, you can recognize that). I'll shut up now. I've made a big enough fool of myself for today. C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2013-12-03 at 23:36 -0200, Ignacio Areta wrote:

So, ifup only works if you have a desktop with a single wired card (which appears to be your case).. But this is not the major group. A lot of people has wireless cards, and ifup doesn't work in these case.. There's a lot of situatios like this, including, the review of 13.1 in DistroWatch. distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20131202#feature

I hope that's not the case. I have a wifi only 12.3->13.1 upgraded laptop with wlan0 and ifup chosen via yast. I need a fixed IP to connect to a windows domain at work. I don't use networkmanager but it still works fine. (sorry, hope I've not hijacked: just a bit worried.) L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/03/2013 07:10 PM, Felix Miata wrote:

On 2013-12-03 22:44 (GMT-0200) Ignacio Areta composed:

...

So, does someone have any plans to change this?

I hope no default change any time before NM does more maturing. Ifup is KISS, much better for the many systems using a single more secure wired connection and needing 0 "management", especially by a complicated, larger and buggy manager.

There is a lot to be said for KISS. After struggling through transitions from ifup, to network manager, to netctl with other distros, the bottom line is they provide little, if any, benefit over ifup for 99% of the userbase. Generally it is only a very vocal minority of users that push moving to the latest "gee-whiz" way of doing x,y or z. No distro should make a knee-jerk change in core packages just to satisfy the wants of a few. There is nothing wrong with moving to new ways of doing things as long as the benefits to the distribution are clearly defined, there are real benefits to a majority of the installed users, and the impact of the change on users doesn't create incompatibilities/inconsistencies between the current supported releases. older software != bad software I guess the question posed is "what is the current push withing openSuSE, if any, to change the software for managing network interfaces?" Has anyone done any comparison between the competing schemes to determine which provides the greatest capability, flexibility and ease of use for managing both wired and wireless interfaces? One that hopefully does not change the interface names from ethx to enpXs1X forcing updates to everything that relies on the ethX conventions. I haven't, but it would be interesting to see just what is out there and whether any of the newer schemes have matured to the point of being a sane replacement to how we do things now. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:32:51 -0600 "David C. Rankin" wrote:

Has anyone done any comparison between the competing schemes to determine which provides the greatest capability, flexibility and ease of use for managing both wired and wireless interfaces?

You can find in a thread that they did comparative analysis and wicked is result of that. -- Regards, Rajko. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 03 décembre 2013 à 21:08 -0500, James Knott a écrit :

Ignacio Areta wrote:

...

In my opinion, NetworkManager should be the default for network setup.

For computers that are always connected via Ethernet, I prefer ifup. It provides more flexibility than NetworkManager.

Also, it can connect on boot up, whereas NetworkManager doesn't connect untill after login.

NM can do that too, you just need to allow it to do so in the configuration. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ilya Chernykh Wed, 04 Dec 2013 06:20:12 +0300:

* Sometimes graphical boot fails, for example, when video drivers not properly installed. In this case Network Manager does not work, and there is no access to the repositories.

* Most desktop environments do not have a Network Manager front-end.

NM has a cli interface. Of course a default connection will be plugged in automatically without X. -- Best regards, Dmitriy DA(P).DarkneSS Perlow @ Linux x64 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mercredi 04 décembre 2013 à 07:20 +0400, Ilya Chernykh a écrit :

...

On Wednesday 04 December 2013 04:44:51 Ignacio Areta wrote:

...

So, the question is in the subject. I'd like to understand the motivation behind this choice. In my opinion, NetworkManager should be the default for network setup. The use of ifup doesn't show any advantage: configuration for WiFi is problematic (and sometimes for wired networks too), it increases the startup time and the service doesn't restart properly.

OK, NetworkManager has its problems too, but it's a better solution than this, specially for newbies in this distro.

So, does someone have any plans to change this?

* Sometimes graphical boot fails, for example, when video drivers not properly installed. In this case Network Manager does not work, and there is no access to the repositories.

As as explained below

...

* Network manager cannot keep the connection between user sessions, when changing the user or a desktop.

It can, if you configure it to share a connection by all users..

It never worked when I tried. I don't remember the issues, some permissions snafu. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Frederic Crozat wrote:

...

...

...

* Network manager cannot keep the connection between user sessions, when changing the user or a desktop.

It can, if you configure it to share a connection by all users..

It never worked when I tried. I don't remember the issues, some permissions snafu.

It is supposed to work (it does for me). If it doesn't, open a bug report.

It was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. When I get the chance, I'll try and file a bug if it doesn't work. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Herbert Graeber wrote:

And even more...

The system wide configuration can be done using configuration files in /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections, which is not more diffcult than writing configuration files for ifup/ifdown in /etc/sysconfig/network/. A man page describing the configuration files is available, too.

I have already configured a headless rasberrypi to use an UMTS stick using Networkmanager without nm-applet or plasmoid-networkmanagement.

openSuse on the raspi? I'd love that. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.12.2013 04:20, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

* Most desktop environments do not have a Network Manager front-end.

But nm-applet still can be used in those. -- Stefan Seyfried "If your lighter runs out of fluid or flint and stops making fire, and you can't be bothered to figure out about lighter fluid or flint, that is not Zippo's fault." -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue 03 Dec 2013 11:04:27 PM EST, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Ignacio Areta [12-03-13 19:45]:

...

So, the question is in the subject. I'd like to understand the motivation behind this choice. In my opinion, NetworkManager should be the default for network setup. The use of ifup doesn't show any advantage: configuration for WiFi is problematic (and sometimes for wired networks too), it increases the startup time and the service doesn't restart properly.

OK, NetworkManager has its problems too, but it's a better solution than this, specially for newbies in this distro.

Yes, for me NetworkManager has major, critical problems. It doesn't work and hasn't since it came out. The *only* way I have network connection is via ifup. And that is on three boxes, one is wireless.

...

So, does someone have any plans to change this?

I surely hope not!

This is 2nd or 3rd openSUSE distro release with a NetworkManager that doesn't autostart. Maybe the fourth time (13.2) will be the charm. ;-) Cheers! Roman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 12/04/2013 11:31 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

This is 2nd or 3rd openSUSE distro release with a NetworkManager that doesn't autostart. Maybe the fourth time (13.2) will be the charm. ;-)

Roman

Have you checked the boxes for "System connection" and "Connect automatically" for the interface? Without these checked NM will not make a connection till you login.

Works for me. :-)

I agree about the "System Connection" and "Connect automatically after the installation has finished and you are back at your desktop display. The correct way is to get NM to start up automatically after first time start up. I can't remember if it was with 12.1, 12.3 or 12.3 where it started up after the second restart. This was what we've been asking for NM _to be enabled_ after the first restart. So far we had to manually restart it from konsole or Yast. Now that 2014 will be upon us, I think is is something that openSUSE can achieve with NetworkManager. Yes? Roman ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Greg Freemyer wrote:

Per the "wicked" thread, this thread is obsolete. For 13.2 the plan is to drop ifup support from Yast and add wicked support. Further the install media will give users a choice of wicked or network manager, but not ifup.

(I have a feeling I just woke a few people up.)

Migration will a show-stopper, I predict. I don't imagine many production servers going "wicked" any time soon. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (1.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 04/12/13 17:07, Hans Witvliet escribió:

Well, don't know what your definition of "production" is ... it _is_ intended for SLES12. Should be solid enough. That means the dev's mean serious efforts ;-)

Which is a pretty bad move considering that systemd-networkd will overpass it in functionality and development power in a matter of months. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 05/12/13 05:52, Olaf Hering escribió:

Hopefully (open)SUSE will have enough courage to build and package upcoming systemd packages with the equivalent of "--without-network".

I really hope it does not, I hope it embraces the rest of the ecosystem instead of yet another distribution specific tool like this wicked thing. It is probably clear by now that I strongly object to the approach you are taking, but since I believe that systemd-networkd will ultimately prevail against competing solutions for a number of reasons, I will rest my case and let reality impose itself. Good luck. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

And into this (still) minefield you want to put in another "feature" ??

I do not want to do that, I simply describing what I see as the best possible future path.

I dare to say that SLE will not touch systemd-networkd until at least one RHEL release with it is out for 6 month minimum. Common sense and all.

Redhat is NOT working on systemd-networkd (neither is Lennart or anyone related) so I fail to see how it can be related to RHEL. it is sponsored by CoreOS Inc. , INTEL has submitted patches to merge at least the DHCPv4 implementation of "Connman" (https://connman.net/) as libsystemd-dhcp..other bits from that project that are in the intended scope of networkd (which will NOT target the desktop in anyway) may or may not follow suit.

Until that time is come we all need a working solution and "wicked" seems much more ready to step in. IPv6, bridging, bonding, vpn, vlan are keywords here.

I would prefer that SUSE invest resources improving networkd..also it will make me equally happy if they decide not to invest in networkd but instead make networkmanager suitable for the task in question, ending this "One set of tools for servers and a different one for desktops", that will be beyond awesome and is in fact my preferred outcome.(systemd-networkd being the second prize) Apparently this is not going to be the case ..unfortunately the only power I have is to withdraw any support,attention or otherwise spend my time dealing with it, plus invest time working in my chosen solution. I remained silent for about 2 days, resisting to comment on this thread but couldn't help it :-) even though I am fully aware it will fall in deaf ears. EOR (end on rant) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 06/12/13 07:09, Olaf Kirch escribió:

networkd didn't come up until pretty recently, and it seems there is a lot of parallel thinking going on. Which is good, as it validates our approach over the RedHat approach of extending NetworkManager.

FWIW, we did have a pretty good discussion with Tom Gundersen a couple of days ago, where we agreed that we have a lot in common - and we're talking about how to align some of our efforts better.

That's good to hear :-)

Yeah, except that we cannot now. We have a SLE release in 9-10 months, quite a bit of effort has gone into wicked to make it do the things we need a network management infrastructure to do. Networkd looks like a very promising project, but at this very moment, it's too late to switch.

Yeah, I agree it is of course too late to switch, it will take a while to make networkd suitable for the corporate world.

If you want to help make wicked and networkd converge, that would be really nice.

Hrmmm.. not ruling that out, seems like a good idea ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 10:49, Michal Kubecek wrote:

On Fri, Dec 06, 2013 at 04:31:21AM +0100, Yamaban wrote:

...

More interesting will be the upcoming debates about filtering: IPtables vs. NFtables (start with Linux Kernel 3.12)

It will be in 3.13, not 3.12.

Michal Kubeček

ACK, my bad, sorry, switched around the release notes for 3.12 and the pull-in notes for 3.13. Still, the fact remains, it will become a feature as 13.2 will come with a Kernel > 3.12 for sure. Thus all the SuSEfirewall (script) stuff will be hit by it, and has to be modified and tested, included the Yast-module. The sooner this gets a fixed place in the schedule of the relevant dev-staff the better, reserve time and manpower now before other stuff fills the schedule. Thanks for having an eye on it. - Yamaban.

On Monday 2013-12-09 08:23, Michal Kubecek wrote:

Therefore I would really appreciate if this time we switched to the new technology (or made it the default if we decide to support both for some time) only after it does deserve it (yes, unlike KDE4 or systemd). After all, we still keep shipping ifconfig and friends in our default installation, even if they are obsolete for more than 15 years.

I hear Fedora did the right thing and not include them in the default install. So should we. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

Greg Freemyer wrote:

...

Per the "wicked" thread, this thread is obsolete. For 13.2 the plan is to drop ifup support from Yast and add wicked support. Further the install media will give users a choice of wicked or network manager, but not ifup.

(I have a feeling I just woke a few people up.)

Migration will a show-stopper, I predict. I don't imagine many production servers going "wicked" any time soon.

Per, the subject of this email is why is ifup the default for new installs. per the "people that do", it won't be in 13.2 so this thread is a history lesson. Discussion of wicked replacing ifup in yast and in the installer would be better had in the other thread. If the idea is nixed, this thread may become relevant again. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.12.2013 20:49, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

Per the "wicked" thread, this thread is obsolete. For 13.2 the plan is to drop ifup support from Yast and add wicked support. Further the install media will give users a choice of wicked or network manager, but not ifup.

Just a small clarification: wicked is about to replace sysconfig-network, but for now, continue using ifcfg files. YaST will be adopted, e.g. to accept "wicked.service" as the network service, but the ifcfg support in yast2 will be not dropped in favour of wicked config files yet. This is a step for 14.x rather than 13.x. Gruesse / Regards, Marius Tomaschewski , -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg), GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:35 AM, C wrote:

If there was a way to "fix" this on install... allow the user to choose ifup or NM... would that resolve it?

AFAIK, there is that choice, at least in advanced mode. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:04 AM, C wrote:

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 7:00 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:35 AM, C wrote:

...

If there was a way to "fix" this on install... allow the user to choose ifup or NM... would that resolve it?

AFAIK, there is that choice, at least in advanced mode.

If it's there... then what about swapping? Set NM for default and leave it to those that know what they are doing to use advanced install and select ifup where it makes sense.

The default works well as-is. Ethernet ports tend to work out-of-the-box with ifup (which by default uses DHCP which is as plug-n-play as it gets). Wi-Fi ports are left unmanaged for NM to handle them. I have never had a system where wlan was the *only* port (ie: no eth). It's possible that the installation procedure configures such an interface to be ifup. That may need to be checked. Which, as I said a way back, you get checked by reporting the bug on the bugzilla. The DistroWatch thingy you linked sounds more like a misconfigure network router rather than a bug in ifup. It sounds as if the router was handing out IPv6 addresses even when the network didn't support it. I've seen this happen. Most recent versions of Firefox and the like will prefer IPv6 over IPv4, and if the network isn't properly set up, you get what DistroWatch reports. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 08:03, Per Jessen wrote:

Claudio Freire wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:35 AM, C wrote:

...

If there was a way to "fix" this on install... allow the user to choose ifup or NM... would that resolve it?

AFAIK, there is that choice, at least in advanced mode.

I never switch to NM, but I'm pretty certain the option is there somewhere under YaST:Network Setup/Settings.

A few questions for the pro NM guys: - How do you set up multiple IP/mask per interface? - How do you set up trunking of multiple interfaces? - How do you set up priorized fail-over handling? - How do you set up tap/tun nodes for vm / testing stuff? I know how to do that with if-up but no plan for NM. NM can make sense for a changing locations mobile device, but in fixed desktop / server environments it's not the answer to all questions. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Stefan Zimmer wrote:

Well, correct me, if I am wrong, but so far I have had the following experience.

If I install my desktop or my nas-server with only one wired connection, ifup was choosen by default.

If I install my laptops with wired AND wireless peripherie, NM was choosen by default. So everything is like I expect it.

What is wrong with the current behaviour?

Or... what is going wrong with all the systems I've set up? :-P On any install I've done which has wireless network, it's never come up with NM enabled. It's always come up with ifup and I've had to go enable NM in YaST. This is also the experience of the author of a review of openSUSE http://www.distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20131202#feature where his comment is in line with my own experience. C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Michal Hrusecky wrote:

C - 9:13 4.12.13 wrote:

...

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Stefan Zimmer wrote:

...

Well, correct me, if I am wrong, but so far I have had the following experience.

If I install my desktop or my nas-server with only one wired connection, ifup was choosen by default.

If I install my laptops with wired AND wireless peripherie, NM was choosen by default. So everything is like I expect it.

What is wrong with the current behaviour?

Or... what is going wrong with all the systems I've set up? :-P On any install I've done which has wireless network, it's never come up with NM enabled. It's always come up with ifup and I've had to go enable NM in YaST. This is also the experience of the author of a review of openSUSE

Did you used KDE/Gnome?

KDE on all systems. I need to go test this again on my test laptop... tonight after work. I swear on a stack of EMACS manuals that NM did not come up and ifup was the default on a system with no wired NIC... but I've been wrong so many times before, that I could be completely out to lunch again. The thing is, this sticks in my mind because of how many "help me get network working" calls and emails I get where the issue is ifup vs NM. C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op woensdag 4 december 2013 03:42:42 schreef Felix Miata:

On 2013-12-04 09:23 (GMT+0100) C composed:

...

KDE on all systems.

I need to go test this again on my test laptop... tonight after work. I swear on a stack of EMACS manuals that NM did not come up and ifup was the default on a system with no wired NIC... but I've been wrong so many times before, that I could be completely out to lunch again. The thing is, this sticks in my mind because of how many "help me get network working" calls and emails I get where the issue is ifup vs NM.

Maybe the root problem is allowing NM to be installed on systems that don't need what ifup can't do? I taboo NM on every installation possessing no wlan hardware, which is most I do, since everything I use myself is wired.

You probably have not used a wired connection with native IPv6, which should get a global IPv6 address without any configuration. In this case the connection with ifup becomes unstable, it resets about each minute. Only with NM enabled I could get a stable connection and configuration with (a) fixed IPv6 address(es) is also possible with NM. System configuration seems to be the default, which means that right after booting the interface gets the configured settings. -- fr.gr. Freek de Kruijf -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Mittwoch, 4. Dezember 2013, 09:13:11 schrieb C:

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Stefan Zimmer wrote:

...

Well, correct me, if I am wrong, but so far I have had the following experience.

If I install my desktop or my nas-server with only one wired connection, ifup was choosen by default.

If I install my laptops with wired AND wireless peripherie, NM was choosen by default. So everything is like I expect it.

What is wrong with the current behaviour?

Or... what is going wrong with all the systems I've set up? :-P On any install I've done which has wireless network, it's never come up with NM enabled. It's always come up with ifup and I've had to go enable NM in YaST. This is also the experience of the author of a review of openSUSE http://www.distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20131202#feature where his comment is in line with my own experience.

C.

Well I have testet it right now. I downloaded the current OpenSuse 13.1, and installed it on an laptop. And: NM is ENABLED, and not ifup. So the question is indeed, what are you doing wrong, or what is wrong with your hardware. Stefan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 09:09, auxsvr@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday 04 of December 2013 08:54:58 Yamaban wrote:

...

A few questions for the pro NM guys:

- How do you set up multiple IP/mask per interface?

- How do you set up trunking of multiple interfaces?

Do you mean bonding or bridging? Current NM supports bridges, although the UIs may lack the support.

Bonding was what I needed, thanks for the info on bridging.

...

- How do you set up priorized fail-over handling?

- How do you set up tap/tun nodes for vm / testing stuff?

I know how to do that with if-up but no plan for NM.

NM can make sense for a changing locations mobile device, but in fixed desktop / server environments it's not the answer to all questions.

I prefer it for a fixed desktop, because it makes it easy to connect to VPNs and configure multiple NICs. But for a server, ifup scripts have proved to be more reliable.

As I said not the answer to ALL questions. But yes, *changeing* WiFi / Bluethooth / VPN details is easier for GUI-users with NM. For static environments, fail-over stuff, bonding, multi-IP, etc ifup makes much more sense. Esp. for NAS+ (added services), routers or dedicated servers. IMHO for most laptops / tablets / mobile devices with wireless and/or otherwise changeing connections, NM will be better and easier to use than ifup. Does NM (now/13.1) have any continual and replecable success in handling GSM / UMTS / LTE modems (Cards, USB)/ connections ? I remember 12.1 NM as something unreliable there. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2013-12-04 at 10:05 +0100, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Tue, Dec 03, 2013 at 10:44:51PM -0200, Ignacio Areta wrote:

...

Hello list,

So, the question is in the subject. I'd like to understand the motivation behind this choice. In my opinion, NetworkManager should be the default for network setup. The use of ifup doesn't show any advantage: configuration for WiFi is problematic (and sometimes for wired networks too), it increases the startup time and the service doesn't restart properly.

OK, NetworkManager has its problems too, but it's a better solution than this, specially for newbies in this distro.

So, does someone have any plans to change this?

I do not remember changing any defaults when I last installed my Laptop.

And I got NetworkManager just nicely per default.

Ciao, Marcus

Every tools has it pro's and con's. And once in a while the developers do answer your prayers.... I was told it would appear in next SLES-release (it's already on the OBS) From https://event.susecon.com/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=1375 TT1375 - Wicked Network Management Olaf Kirch - Director SUSE Linux Enterprise, SUSE Matthias Eckermann , SUSE For two decades the network configuration on Linux Servers has been done using configuration files and scripts. While there is nothing wrong with this approach in general (more the opposite, as we all know), it maxed out: virtual LANs, virtualization, bridging, bonding, IPv6, wired and wireless, ... combined with the requirement to change configurations dynamically, have pushed the classical approach almost to its limits. And NetworkManager did not manage the more complex of those, specifically in arbitrary combinations. The ''wicked'' project (http://gitorious.org/wicked/) tackles the challenges by implementing a dynamic infrastructure, combining a service daemon with dbus integration and a plug-in framework, the option to store configuration persistently, and interfaces to import existing script based static configuration of major Linux distributions into its wicked world. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

Every tools has it pro's and con's. And once in a while the developers do answer your prayers.... I was told it would appear in next SLES-release (it's already on the OBS)

From https://event.susecon.com/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=1375

TT1375 - Wicked Network Management

Olaf Kirch - Director SUSE Linux Enterprise, SUSE Matthias Eckermann , SUSE

For two decades the network configuration on Linux Servers has been done using configuration files and scripts. While there is nothing wrong with this approach in general (more the opposite, as we all know), it maxed out: virtual LANs, virtualization, bridging, bonding, IPv6, wired and wireless, ... combined with the requirement to change configurations dynamically, have pushed the classical approach almost to its limits. And NetworkManager did not manage the more complex of those, specifically in arbitrary combinations. The ''wicked'' project (http://gitorious.org/wicked/) tackles the challenges by implementing a dynamic infrastructure, combining a service daemon with dbus integration and a plug-in framework, the option to store configuration persistently, and interfaces to import existing script based static configuration of major Linux distributions into its wicked world.

That's fantastic!

Seems like I've been hearing about wicked for years.

I'd love to see it as the 13.2 killer feature. All by itself we would cause a lot of openSUSE excitement throughout the linux user world.

=== questions

Is it installable in 13.1?

Does it have cli and gui front-ends?

Is it in factory?

Is yast wicked aware?

Is it an option as default for 13.2?

Assuming I've found teh right info.... it seems like it's already available for 13.1... and 12.3 and 12.2 (all as part of the network:utilities repo, plus a few private repos): http://software.opensuse.org/package/wicd The main project page: http://wicd.sourceforge.net/ The GUI frontend is written in GTK+, but has no Gnome deps. According to https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wicd there is at least one QT GUI C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Matthias G. Eckermann wrote:

On 2013-12-04 T 14:58 +0100 C wrote:

...

The main project page: http://wicd.sourceforge.net/

WICD != wicked.

The "wicked" we are discussing here is hosted at:

https://github.com/openSUSE/wicked

It is one of those days for me :-P My apologies for the wrong information. After rebooting my Google-fu extension (in my addled brain), I found the announcement on the Factory list: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2010-11/msg00547.html And this: http://software.opensuse.org/package/wicked C. -- openSUSE 12.3 x86_64, KDE 4.11 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 04 Dec 2013 08:42:29 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

Every tools has it pro's and con's. And once in a while the developers do answer your prayers.... I was told it would appear in next SLES-release (it's already on the OBS)

From https://event.susecon.com/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=1375

TT1375 - Wicked Network Management

Olaf Kirch - Director SUSE Linux Enterprise, SUSE Matthias Eckermann , SUSE

For two decades the network configuration on Linux Servers has been done using configuration files and scripts. While there is nothing wrong with this approach in general (more the opposite, as we all know), it maxed out: virtual LANs, virtualization, bridging, bonding, IPv6, wired and wireless, ... combined with the requirement to change configurations dynamically, have pushed the classical approach almost to its limits. And NetworkManager did not manage the more complex of those, specifically in arbitrary combinations. The ''wicked'' project (http://gitorious.org/wicked/) tackles the challenges by implementing a dynamic infrastructure, combining a service daemon with dbus integration and a plug-in framework, the option to store configuration persistently, and interfaces to import existing script based static configuration of major Linux distributions into its wicked world.

That's fantastic!

Seems like I've been hearing about wicked for years.

I'd love to see it as the 13.2 killer feature. All by itself we would cause a lot of openSUSE excitement throughout the linux user world.

=== questions

Is it installable in 13.1?

Does it have cli and gui front-ends?

Is it in factory?

Is yast wicked aware?

I don't know answers for remaining question, but for yast there is plan to support it for 13.2 ( of course it is just plan and we will see how it will work as network part of yast are really complex code ). Josef

Is it an option as default for 13.2?

Greg

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello Greg, Hans and all, On 2013-12-04 T 08:42 -0500 Greg Freemyer wrote:

Hans Witvliet wrote:

...

Every tools has it pro's and con's. And once in a while the developers do answer your prayers.... I was told it would appear in next SLES-release (it's already on the OBS)

From https://event.susecon.com/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=1375

TT1375 - Wicked Network Management

Olaf Kirch - Director SUSE Linux Enterprise, SUSE Matthias Eckermann , SUSE

For two decades the network configuration on Linux Servers has been done using configuration files and scripts. While there is nothing wrong with this approach in general (more the opposite, as we all know), it maxed out: virtual LANs, virtualization, bridging, bonding, IPv6, wired and wireless, ... combined with the requirement to change configurations dynamically, have pushed the classical approach almost to its limits. And NetworkManager did not manage the more complex of those, specifically in arbitrary combinations. The ''wicked'' project (http://gitorious.org/wicked/) tackles the challenges by implementing a dynamic infrastructure, combining a service daemon with dbus integration and a plug-in framework, the option to store configuration persistently, and interfaces to import existing script based static configuration of major Linux distributions into its wicked world.

That's fantastic!

Seems like I've been hearing about wicked for years.

I'd love to see it as the 13.2 killer feature. All by itself we would cause a lot of openSUSE excitement throughout the linux user world.

=== questions

Is it installable in 13.1?

Yes. The demonstration we gave at SUSECon ran on a plain openSUSE 13.1 + Wicked from OBS. OBS project: network:wicked:master

Does it have cli and gui front-ends?

CLI only, at the moment. However, wicked has a dbus interface, and thus integrating into desktop infrastructures should not be too difficult.

Is it in factory?

Yes.

Is yast wicked aware?

Not yet, unfortunately. In openSUSE 13.1 wicked is treated like Network Manager, i.e. YaST warns that there is another framework configuring your network. For SUSE Linux Enterprise 12 YaST shall be wicked aware, though, as wicked will be the default on the Server product at least. However, in this context one suggestion: if you want to try wicked, and want to have a smooth start, do this: 1. Install openSUSE 13.1 using "ifup" method 2. Configure your network using YaST 3. Switch to wicked after that The effect is that wicked will read and use the existing configuration files from /etc/sysconfig/network and configure your network accordingly. Going forward you then can use wicked only, play with it, start using wicked's own configuration file format, which allows for an more structured approach. Hint: wicked's configuration files are stored in /etc/wicked/ifconfig

Is it an option as default for 13.2?

I personally think, wicked is the most elegant way of moving from plain, old and static "ifup" scripts to a more flexible and more powerful solution, without being forced to throw away the old configuration. Specifically more complex szenarios (VLANs, Bridging, Bonding, ...) benefit from wicked's capabilities, while for a simple network connection on a desktop system, NetworkManager might be the better choice; at least at the moment. But wicked is highly modular, and thus there is hope, ...

Is it an option as default for 13.2?

Your choice;) so long - MgE -- Matthias G. Eckermann Senior Product Manager SUSE® Linux Enterprise SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Maxfeldstraße 5 90409 Nürnberg Germany GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Marius Tomaschewski wrote:

...

Is yast wicked aware?

Wicked will replace sysconfig-network, that is the ifcfg files used by ifup are it's [currently] primary config file source and yes, there is a yast2, which accepts it as replacement.

Please see https://github.com/yast/yast-network/pull/119

...

Is it an option as default for 13.2?

It will replace sysconfig-network, that is: yes.

Wow, that was a lot of testing that just got lined up in that one-liner :-) -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.2°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 23:22, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Marius Tomaschewski [12-04-13 12:40]:

...

Am 04.12.2013 14:42, schrieb Greg Freemyer:

...

...

TT1375 - Wicked Network Management

That's fantastic!

Seems like I've been hearing about wicked for years.

I'd love to see it as the 13.2 killer feature. All by itself we would cause a lot of openSUSE excitement throughout the linux user world.

=== questions

Is it installable in 13.1?

yes, see http://software.opensuse.org/package/wicked

network:wicked:master builds a package on every git master commit.

but *no* Tumbleweed builds ???

Patrick, please, switch your brain on first. OSS 13.1 = fresh release. Tumbleweed = empty (mostly, but esp. the relevant parts) any for OSS 13.1 build package will work atm. - Yamaban. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 04.12.2013 23:38, schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

* Yamaban [12-04-13 17:29]:

...

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013 23:22, Patrick Shanahan wrote: [...]

...

but *no* Tumbleweed builds ???

Patrick, please, switch your brain on first.

OSS 13.1 = fresh release. Tumbleweed = empty (mostly, but esp. the relevant parts)

any for OSS 13.1 build package will work atm.

You are offbase. I understand completely that atm Tumbleweed=13.1, but wicked is not being build for Tumbleweed now or before now according to the web interface to the builds. So as soon as Tumbleweed updates something dependency related to wicked, there is a distinct possiblity that Tumbleweed/wicked becomes broken.

I've enabled to build it against Tumbleweed right now. Gruesse / Regards, Marius Tomaschewski , -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg), GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org