On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 08:55 +0100, Ruediger Meier wrote:

On Wednesday 01 February 2012, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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Greetings,

Recovering from a completely disasterous update to 12.1, I find that systemd has automated cgroups. This is less than useless to me, I need to turn this stuff off so I can set things up as needed, when needed. Where does one find the config and on/off switch?

Just switch back to sysvinit, see http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Most_annoying_bugs_12.1

zypper in sysvinit-init zypper rm systemd-sysvinit

Ah, instant gratification. Thanks. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mercredi 01 février 2012 à 11:04 +0100, Mike Galbraith a écrit :

On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 10:10 +0100, Frederic Crozat wrote:

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Le mercredi 01 février 2012 à 08:32 +0100, Mike Galbraith a écrit :

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Greetings,

Recovering from a completely disasterous update to 12.1, I find that systemd has automated cgroups. This is less than useless to me, I need to turn this stuff off so I can set things up as needed, when needed.

You can't, cgroups are an integral part of systemd.

Incredible. Until now, systemd sounded to me like it might be a step in the right direction. It suddenly sounds utterly vile.

I don't see why, since it doesn't prevent you to use cgroup at all in your own liking, and bring a lot of nice features which would be hard (or impossible) to do without cgroup. -- Frederic Crozat SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 09:04 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

On 01/02/12 07:04, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 10:10 +0100, Frederic Crozat wrote:

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Le mercredi 01 février 2012 à 08:32 +0100, Mike Galbraith a écrit :

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Greetings,

Recovering from a completely disasterous update to 12.1, I find that systemd has automated cgroups. This is less than useless to me, I need to turn this stuff off so I can set things up as needed, when needed.

You can't, cgroups are an integral part of systemd.

Incredible. Until now, systemd sounded to me like it might be a step in the right direction. It suddenly sounds utterly vile.

What's the problem with it ? how do you expect systemd to contain processes ?

I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 11:29 -0300, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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Incredible. Until now, systemd sounded to me like it might be a step in the right direction. It suddenly sounds utterly vile.

What's the problem with it ? how do you expect systemd to contain processes ?

I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent.

I like bashing systemd too, but really I don't see your problem.

You'll have to explain in more detail and without emotional language for us to understand.

Not emotional, my problem has been resolved. My problem was that I need the ability to set my system up as I see fit, on the fly. I work on and test the scheduler quite a bit, including realtime stuff, and cannot have outside agencies making scheduler setup decisions for me. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2/1/2012 9:46 AM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

On 01/02/12 11:39, Mike Galbraith wrote: My problem was that I need

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the ability to set my system up as I see fit, on the fly. I work on and test the scheduler quite a bit, including realtime stuff, and cannot have outside agencies making scheduler setup decisions for me.

Ah, Ok, I initially thought you were experiencing a bug, is just yet another case of "It does things differently from the way I want, to cover my corner use case"

The world is made up of "corner" use cases. Covering the most common case at the expense of the others is crap. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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Ah, Ok, I initially thought you were experiencing a bug, is just yet another case of "It does things differently from the way I want, to cover my corner use case"

That's completely wrong.  Systemd silently and insistently broke a perfectly valid usage.  The little bugger is gone, I'm happy.

How did it break. As far as I know[0], you're still free to create new cgroups within systemd's hierarchy. [0] http://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/cgroups/cgroups.txt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Mike Galbraith wrote:

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another case of "It does things differently from the way I want, to cover my corner use case" That's completely wrong. Systemd silently and insistently broke a

Ah, Ok, I initially thought you were experiencing a bug, is just yet perfectly valid usage. The little bugger is gone, I'm happy.

I also have removed systemd from 2 of my systems, as I couldn't afford to work around a broken system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 00:28 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Wednesday, 2012-02-01 at 16:33 +0100, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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That's completely wrong. Systemd silently and insistently broke a perfectly valid usage. The little bugger is gone, I'm happy.

Not for long.

You will not be able to disable systemd sometime in the future (date unknown yet), so you'd better make up your case without emotional language so that you can also solve your problem when that time comes.

I simply asked how I can regain the control I need, was told I can't, that there is no option other than to remove systemd, so I did that. If at some point regaining control requires digging into the source, I'll either do that, or change to a distro that still understands that users expect software to be a well behaved slave, not their master. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 2012-02-02 at 09:29 +0100, Michal Kubeček wrote:

On Thursday 02 of February 2012 00:28EN, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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You will not be able to disable systemd sometime in the future (date unknown yet),

Well, again: was this already decided? If yes, who and when decided it? If not, please don't present your wishes as given facts.

I hope we never become that short-sighted. Offering an automated cgroups setup is nice, ramming it down the user's throat is not. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-02-02 09:29, Michal Kubeček wrote:

On Thursday 02 of February 2012 00:28EN, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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You will not be able to disable systemd sometime in the future (date unknown yet),

Well, again: was this already decided? If yes, who and when decided it? If not, please don't present your wishes as given facts.

It is not my wish, rather against my wishes. I simply accept /facts/. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk8qaa8ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XjcQCfbLzjyC7Pmf6ISHIwAYHSM6Rc H+MAoJV40QrgmqP5cVSdMoujusry+gLY =fbNK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 15:50 +0100, Frederic Crozat wrote:

Le mercredi 01 février 2012 à 15:39 +0100, Mike Galbraith a écrit :

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On Wed, 2012-02-01 at 11:29 -0300, Claudio Freire wrote:

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On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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Incredible. Until now, systemd sounded to me like it might be a step in the right direction. It suddenly sounds utterly vile.

What's the problem with it ? how do you expect systemd to contain processes ?

I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent.

I like bashing systemd too, but really I don't see your problem.

You'll have to explain in more detail and without emotional language for us to understand.

Not emotional, my problem has been resolved. My problem was that I need the ability to set my system up as I see fit, on the fly. I work on and test the scheduler quite a bit, including realtime stuff, and cannot have outside agencies making scheduler setup decisions for me.

And it didn't work by changing : in /etc/systemd/system.conf : DefaultControllers= JoinControllers=

and in /etc/systemd/systemd-logind.conf ResetControllers=

? (not tested)

That's what grep led me to, but everything in there was commented out, so I figured it must be controlled elsewhere. Too late to test stuff now, it's toast, and I can't afford to put it back and futz with it. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 01/02/12 11:35, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent.

So essentially what are you asking is no one taking design decisions ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 01 of February 2012 11:52EN, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

On 01/02/12 11:35, Mike Galbraith wrote:

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I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent. So essentially what are you asking is no one taking design decisions ?

Taking design decisions doesn't necessarily mean taking the choice away from users. If systemd started each service in its cgroup by default (but would allow to switch it off), it would be just a design decision. Starting each service in its cgroup and not giving an option to switch this behaviour off is taking the freedom of choice away from users. Fortunately, there is still possibility not to use systemd at all (without having to switch distribution, that is). Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 01 Feb 2012 15:35:01 Mike Galbraith wrote:

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I expect it to do process containment when and how I says it's ok to do so. It is not at all cool for systemd to do what someone else decides it should do with my processes in my workstation without my consent.

BTW, imagine I posted a patch removing SCHED_AUTOGROUP option, mandating that anyone who has CGROUP_SCHED enabled WILL use automated task groups as the great and powerful me (arrogance personified) defines them. The world would burn little 'ole /me at the stake, and rightfully so.

Perhaps the software that automatically offers greater flexibility and control over processes is more valuable to more people than the software that automatically lets processes run glxgears at 50k fps without dropping a couple of frames of southpark. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org