Fredag 25 august 2006 13:36 skrev Andreas Jaeger:

The upcoming openSUSE 10.2 will basically have similar content like its predecessor but comes of course with latest and stable Open Source packages available at that time. We went through Bugzilla, the feature list and package wishlist and try to accomodate your wishes and suggestions.

Note that the list below is neither complete - it's just some of the highlights - nor a commitment.

Sounds great to me. Looks like all significant issues are being adressed, this could turn out to be a distro so great that it'll more than compensate for the horrors we've been going through with 10.1 ;) Just a couple of quick questions.. KDE 3.5.5 (October 10th, 2006: Expected release date of KDE 3.5.5)? Narayans KDE zmd-updater applet? Aiglx? YaST-gtk? Now, if only we could somehow have KMPs for ATi and Nvidia available, we needn't worry about Vista at all.. Martin --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 02:29:25PM +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

Just a couple of quick questions..

Aiglx?

Well, our experiences have not been the best: (tried with xorg-server-7.1.99.3/i810-1.6.5 on 915G) - X Server log: (WW) AIGLX: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x23 [...] (WW) AIGLX: 3D driver claims to not support visual 0x32 - compiz: No stencil buffer. Clipping of transformed windows is not going to be correct when screen is transformed. --> desktop looks broken and is no longer usable You can enable it ('Option "AIGLX" "true"' in ServerFlags section of xorg.conf)- if you want and play with it. Good luck! And don't forget to enable Composite extension as well - which is known to be broken at least for some drivers, e.g. "fglrx". Others might consider to use Xgl instead as before. :-)

Now, if only we could somehow have KMPs for ATi and Nvidia available, we needn't worry about Vista at all..

I can't comment on openSUSE 10.2 (probably nobody can ATM), but for openSUSE 10.1 this is already in place - thanks to the common code base of SL 10.1/SLE10. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, Andreas Jaeger schrieb:

...

YaST-gtk?

It might be in Alpha4 but I consider it too early to announce it.

Please wait before including it. I really like yast2-gtk, I appreciate Ricardo's work and don't want to criticize it unfairly in his absense, but it must be 100% ready and stable before it can be included. YaST's reputation is seriously damaged because of the problems with 10.1 and I'm not sure about the impact of including yast2-gtk now. Users have very high expectations about 10.2. They want to have an almost perfect YaST, not only in software stability, but also in UI stability and continuity. Including another frontend now might show the world something false and strange like "we're creating new frontends while there are serious functionality and performance problems to be fixed". Of course it's not true, because the frontend and the underlying libraries are made by different people. But please consider what people think. The first reaction to Ricardo's announcement was: "Just out of interest, what is the advantage of re-implementing yast by linking it with libgtk instead of libqt? Wouldn't the time have been better spent improving yast itself?" http://lists.opensuse.org/archive/opensuse-factory/2006-08/msg00403.html It's the reaction I expected. GNOME users can actually live with the Qt frontend, they have been able to live with it for years and it did not hurt that much. Maybe it can be included, but not yet installed by default so it becomes an opt-in offering for now, like Xgl. Once YaST itself restored its reputation, a new frontend will have better acceptance. We should in any case avoid the impression that new stuff is included prematurely. Andreas Hanke --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

The upcoming openSUSE 10.2 will basically have similar content like its predecessor but comes of course with latest and stable Open Source packages available at that time. We went through Bugzilla, the feature list and package wishlist and try to accomodate your wishes and suggestions.

You missed some :)

Note that the list below is neither complete - it's just some of the highlights - nor a commitment.

Here an overview about areas we like to enhance, change or add things:

[SNIP]

Please give feedback and of course if there's something missing - tell us.

Looks promising! The performance improvements in Software Management are dearly needed, I guess. Here is my little wishlist: - Please consider using LVM by default instead of plain disk partitions for new installations (BUG#180762): http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2006-06/msg00004.html - Get Bluetooth Support in KDE fixed (BUG#171120) and improved in general, e.g. by supporting Bluetooth Headsets out of the box (important for better VoIP support) (BUG#76782) - Support first Installation via WLAN: (BUG#149113) - Better support the merged framebuffer modes in SaX2 when using dual-screen setups (make it easier to configure cloned and large desktops and how to switch between these modes at runtime) - Something I really liked about Kubuntu: the Installation CD can be used as either a live demo CD (without installation) and for easy installing on hard disk. Bye, LenZ - -- - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Lenz Grimmer -o) [ICQ: 160767607 | Jabber: LenZGr@jabber.org] /\\ http://www.lenzg.org/ V_V -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE8qZGSVDhKrJykfIRAjsUAJ9nftEUWqgJknOwazDAdHvcob+pTwCeOuz6 HqSbyuStkJvNg3SLlL8hbY0= =XIT6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Joerg Mayer writes:

On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 01:36:19PM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

- Kernel 2.6.18

Desktop & Productivity Software - support for rt2500 wlan card, Bug 149141

Why is this considered Desktop/Prod instead of kernel?

No idea why Michael sorted it this way ;-(

...

- adding Broadcom WLAN support

Please add the devicescape wireless stack into 2.6.18 (you might just be one release early ;) The reason why is, that some wireless drivers are only maintained (or usable) for the devicescape wireless stack, not the regulare one.

Let's see what our mobile devices team think what is needed, I would prefer to not add a complete new stack :-( Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Andreas Hanke writes:

Hi,

Andreas Jaeger schrieb:

...

...

YaST-gtk?

It might be in Alpha4 but I consider it too early to announce it.

Please wait before including it. [...]

It will be included in our ftp tree - installing it by default is another story as you mentioned:

Maybe it can be included, but not yet installed by default so it becomes an opt-in offering for now, like Xgl. Once YaST itself restored its reputation, a new frontend will have better acceptance. We should in any case avoid the impression that new stuff is included prematurely.

Cheers, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

This is a mail that I send to Andreas some days ago: It is a reply so the start is not like a normal startpost. ==================================== People are confused by seeing Httpserver, DNS-server and so on in YaST. YaST is great but at this moment it becomes 'unorganised' (posted a bugzilla on that some month ago) in the way that it offers to much that is not needed (and not properly bundeld). Same thing is the case at this moment in SL 10.1 with ZEN (not in one screen but 3 apps) Another thing about YaST is the following: At this moment YaST is used to install SL/oS. Looking at other distro's and OS's it is great and it works. But it is not _that_ good looking and not _that_ simple and fast to use. Maybe an idea for 10.3 to pimp the install and change some things.... Idea 1: Do not use 'windows' like we do use it now. It should be a fullscreen 'background'. That way you can change the background of the installer every release and that would be nice. Look at the links and scoll that page. That looks nice to mr. Joe Average! http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Screenshot_Submissions#Freespire_Welcome... Idea 2: Let the user select what screens he/she wants to use default: default/expert. On every screen in default there will be an option to see expert-options but you don't have to make the choice every time. Idea 3: This one is stolen from Vista. Drop those radiobuttons (round things) and replace it with an nice arrow that directly reponse. Idea 4: Do not show more information the needed in default. I don't care what step I have had and which one will come next. So the progress-tree can be dropped in default (maybe a little button to show and give the opportunity to go back some steps to change a setting). When SL is installing you see stats about each disk, packages, size and so on. The only thing the customer wants to now is : - how far are we in total? - how long will it take from now on? - when do I need to insert another cd? [======== ] < no numbers! Estimated: 12 minutes Next CD: 2 minutes Under that there is a lot of space for a slideshow I guess. Idea 5: Take care of that you show a lot of nice things in the slideshow. 3 buttons: prev, next, diashow. It uses some space on the disk but new users will welcome it.... Do you have some comments on it. Some point have reached the ML and bugzilla before but I guess this time I want to make a mockup if there is a chance that it will be redesigned. Azerion. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

--- Thu, Oct 26 openSUSE 10.2 Beta1 release (feature complete) --- Thu, Nov 9 openSUSE 10.2 Beta2 release --- Thu, Nov 23 openSUSE 10.2 RC1 release --- Thu, Nov 30 openSUSE 10.2 GM release --- Thu, Dec 7 openSUSE 10.2 public release

Hello? Hello? What did we learn from the last SUSE Linux edition? 1.) Never change features in beta 3 2.) Work until everything is fixed despite stores waiting 1.) It can't happen again, we have planned 2 beta's..... Is this a real solution? I would rather see a list as followed: Thu, Oct 26 openSUSE 10.2 Beta1 release (feature complete) Thu, Nov 9 openSUSE 10.2 Beta2 release Thu, Nov 16 openSUSE 10.2 Beta3 release << notice only 1 week Thu, Nov 30 openSUSE 10.2 RC1 release Thu, Dec 7 openSUSE 10.2 RC2 release << notice only one week Thu, Dec 21 openSUSE 10.2 GM release (or the 14th) Thu, Dec 28 openSUSE 10.2 public release (or the 21th) 2-3 more weeks dev-time and 1 extra beta and 1 extra RC. It will probably come to that after all so let's just plan it right away. I know we won't have zen-shit this time but we don't have to hurry. If there are no blockers/showstoppers anymore there are little things that can be fixed. Vista will come out around begin 2007 and websites will compare both. Let's make sure we win the contest by having all those irritating little bugs smashed also (and certainly the big ones). We don't have to hurry, we have to deliver quality. Azerion --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Azerion writes:

...

--- Thu, Oct 26 openSUSE 10.2 Beta1 release (feature complete) --- Thu, Nov 9 openSUSE 10.2 Beta2 release --- Thu, Nov 23 openSUSE 10.2 RC1 release --- Thu, Nov 30 openSUSE 10.2 GM release --- Thu, Dec 7 openSUSE 10.2 public release

Hello? Hello? What did we learn from the last SUSE Linux edition?

1.) Never change features in beta 3 2.) Work until everything is fixed despite stores waiting

1.) It can't happen again, we have planned 2 beta's..... Is this a real solution?

We have put freezes in place so that this will not happen. Alpha5 could be called Beta0 ;-)

I would rather see a list as followed:

Thu, Oct 26 openSUSE 10.2 Beta1 release (feature complete) Thu, Nov 9 openSUSE 10.2 Beta2 release Thu, Nov 16 openSUSE 10.2 Beta3 release << notice only 1 week Thu, Nov 30 openSUSE 10.2 RC1 release Thu, Dec 7 openSUSE 10.2 RC2 release << notice only one week Thu, Dec 21 openSUSE 10.2 GM release (or the 14th) Thu, Dec 28 openSUSE 10.2 public release (or the 21th)

2-3 more weeks dev-time and 1 extra beta and 1 extra RC. It will probably come to that after all so let's just plan it right away. I know we won't have

All releases before 10.1 were delivered on time.

zen-shit this time but we don't have to hurry. If there are no blockers/showstoppers anymore there are little things that can be fixed.

This kind of schedule would not work due to christmas for us. The only alternative would be a release in february and that one does not work for scheduling reasons in our team.

Vista will come out around begin 2007 and websites will compare both. Let's make sure we win the contest by having all those irritating little bugs smashed also (and certainly the big ones).

We don't have to hurry, we have to deliver quality.

That's what we're working already on, the Alphas help with those, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Azerion a écrit :

We don't have to hurry, we have to deliver quality.

this is true. Make the patterns clear before all release :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net http://dodin.org/galerie_photo_web/expo/index.html http://lucien.dodin.net http://fr.susewiki.org/index.php?title=Gérer_ses_photos --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Azerion writes:

This is a mail that I send to Andreas some days ago: It is a reply so the start is not like a normal startpost.

Thanks for resending it here. Sorry, personal email sometimes takes time to answer :-(

====================================

People are confused by seeing Httpserver, DNS-server and so on in YaST. YaST is great but at this moment it becomes 'unorganised' (posted a bugzilla on that some month ago) in the way that it offers to much that is not needed (and not properly bundeld). Same thing is the case at this moment in SL 10.1 with ZEN (not in one screen but 3 apps)

Another thing about YaST is the following:

At this moment YaST is used to install SL/oS. Looking at other distro's and OS's it is great and it works. But it is not _that_ good looking and not _that_ simple and fast to use. Maybe an idea for 10.3 to pimp the install and change some things....

Idea 1: Do not use 'windows' like we do use it now. It should be a fullscreen 'background'. That way you can change the background of the installer every release and that would be nice. Look at the links and scoll that page. That looks nice to mr. Joe Average!

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Screenshot_Submissions#Freespire_Welcome... Something I liked - we even discussed this over a year ago and then other things become more important :-(. Could you add this to the wishlist, please?

Idea 2: Let the user select what screens he/she wants to use default: default/expert. On every screen in default there will be an option to see expert-options but you don't have to make the choice every time.

The problem is that most people want one expert option but not all. So, allowing the choice is needed - but on the other hand I think that with our proposals we do something similar as well.

Idea 3: This one is stolen from Vista. Drop those radiobuttons (round things) and replace it with an nice arrow that directly reponse.

Idea 4: Do not show more information the needed in default. I don't care what step I have had and which one will come next. So the progress-tree can be dropped in default (maybe a little button to show and give the opportunity to go back some steps to change a setting). When SL is installing you see stats

This is controversial - usability tests show that the progress bar is important.

about each disk, packages, size and so on. The only thing the customer wants to now is : - how far are we in total? - how long will it take from now on? - when do I need to insert another cd?

[======== ] < no numbers! Estimated: 12 minutes Next CD: 2 minutes

Under that there is a lot of space for a slideshow I guess.

We do have the slideshow.

Idea 5: Take care of that you show a lot of nice things in the slideshow. 3 buttons: prev, next, diashow. It uses some space on the disk but new users will welcome it....

What exactly do you suggest here?

Do you have some comments on it. Some point have reached the ML and bugzilla before but I guess this time I want to make a mockup if there is a chance that it will be redesigned.

No chance for 10.2 to do fundamental changes but a mockup is something I would like to see. Thanks, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126

Dňa St 30. August 2006 11:10 jdd napísal:

Stanislav Visnovsky a écrit :

...

What do you mean by 'not uptodate'?

may be they do not do as many work they could (http & dns)

OK, then, please, propose how to improve them. Use bugzilla or the wishlist. Stano --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 10:55:02AM +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Azerion writes:

...

This is a mail that I send to Andreas some days ago: It is a reply so the start is not like a normal startpost.

Thanks for resending it here. Sorry, personal email sometimes takes time to answer :-(

<bitching> Yes, and if the list was set to set a reply-to to the list, then the answer would quite likely have been sent to the list instead of you personally..... </bitching> And now a constructive question: Which key do I have to hit in mutt to answer mails to the list *only* (I don't see any use in doing a reply-all - the person who's post I'm answering is most likely on the list too). ciao Joerg --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 05:09:31PM +0200, Marcus Rueckert wrote:

On 2006-08-30 16:59:46 +0200, Joerg Mayer wrote:

...

And now a constructive question: Which key do I have to hit in mutt to answer mails to the list *only* (I don't see any use in doing a reply-all - the person who's post I'm answering is most likely on the list too).

g - group reply

No, that puts the sender in To: and the list address in Cc: Add subscribe opensuse-factory to .muttrc, restart mutt, then L - list reply hth Sonja -- Sonja Krause-Harder (skh@suse.de) Research & Development SUSE Linux Products GmbH --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hello, * Sonja Krause-Harder [2006-08-30 17:14]:

to .muttrc, restart mutt, then

:source .mutt/muttrc plase :) Regards, Bernhard -- All the existing 2.0.x kernels are to buggy for 2.1.x to be the main goal. -- Alan Cox

Azerion wrote:

...

...

People are confused by seeing Httpserver, DNS-server and so on in YaST. why "confused"? may be these options are not uptodate, but it's good to have them

DNS-server, HTTP-server. Normal people don't know what they are and don't want to know. I think it must me 'there' but not with 21 shortcuts. Try to group them.

I turn Control Panel always to old style. I have to see all at once to feel good. So it is just your taste, not really need. BTW, when I have somebody on the phone it is handy to have all options at once, and say the printer icon, than to walk trough menus. It is lesser to remember.

...

...

Idea 1: Do not use 'windows' like we do use it now. the goal is probably to have the same look we get after the install...

Maybe, or it's just like we use YaST all the time and that is just a YaST-look. But the install is very important for users that want to checkout SUSE. A graphical install that looks slick will make people trust the software. Don't know why but it's like that.

Slick, is that horizontal bar that tells nothing, but time point. Than troubleshooting would be easier: Q:"Let me know what you see in exactly in 2 min 45 sec after beginning?" A:"I see blue to 46%. The rest is white."

...

...

Idea 2: Let the user select what screens he/she wants to use default: default/expert. On every screen in default there will be an option to see expert-options but you don't have to make the choice every time. yes

This contradicts request for simplification as it adds another screen with options.

For the asker: Options confuses people. The will read the options but probably they don't understand everything of it. Just make them hidden.

Removing options is what MS did and now I'm using Linux. What is your proposal where to go if SUSE removes all options?

...

...

Idea 3: This one is stolen from Vista. Drop those radiobuttons (round things) and replace it with an nice arrow that directly reponse. don't always try to mimics windows. I don't know vista and don't want to know about it :-). I like to be able to groups my answers, the less screens the better

Don;t get you're point. This thing does not generate more pages. It just makes sure you only have to click ones instead of "select option C" - "Next". It feels more 'direct' to do it with action-buttons. Don't be afraid to mimic Vista on some point. Maybe we won't agree with their bussiness and source-model but that does not mean their graphical design is bad.

Brrrrrr, ik dislike Linux-fanboys that ban everything from MS only because it is MS.

Wrong, Azerion. It is disliked because it's a lot of eye candies without content, and reference MS is just to save typing. I don't like to see that kind of "user friendly" here. Computers are complex devices, and operating systems are not mind readers to guess what I want to do with. Installation programs have to ask questions, and user must be able to answer. If they are not clear what was asked the only exit is good (not necessarily large) help.

...

...

Idea 4: Do not show more information the needed in default. I don't care what step I have had and which one will come next. I do care much. this is a very good thing, don't change it, please. It's very fequent to be disturbed during a work (phone call...) and you must know where you are when coming back

True, you want to know where you ARE. You don't have to know where you HAVE BEEN. I know that I have partitionized and selected a language......

Hello, how to locate where I'm with single word. How many steps was before and how many comes is important. BTW, just as it is in MS, just different graphics.

Lees info in the screen, as default, is good.

Don't turn slide show off. There is not much information ;-)

...

...

Idea 5: Take care of that you show a lot of nice things in the slideshow. 3 buttons: prev, next, diashow. It uses some space on the disk but new users will welcome it.... honestly I don't like the slideshow, I HATE advertisements. If slide show tyhere is, it should be _usefull_ (list of new points, some help...)

YOU hate them, YOU won't watch them if you are installing openSUSE. YOU are expert and YOU know what openSUSE brings to your desktop.

I do also, new users don't. And I guess we will have to focus on new users at some points. Experts won't see the slide-show after all (even if it includes release-notes)

-- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I will make some mockups this month. Have to use PaintShopPro cause Gimp I can't handle. Maybe Krita is something but have to find out yet. Andreas did get a mockup but that was only one screen and horrible design-work (read: no design at all) Will mockup a part (or the whole) of the installation. Probably with a splisscnreen to Normal/Expert and from that point two screens per tep. You'll see. Azerion --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Azerion wrote:

...

...

Maybe, or it's just like we use YaST all the time and that is just a YaST-look. But the install is very important for users that want to checkout SUSE. A graphical install that looks slick will make people trust the software. Don't know why but it's like that. Slick, is that horizontal bar that tells nothing, but time point. Than troubleshooting would be easier: Q:"Let me know what you see in exactly in 2 min 45 sec after beginning?" A:"I see blue to 46%. The rest is white."

Maybe install should be so simple that there are no questions?

It should be, but till that happen, we need some markers that will simplify help. Removing them will be way to shoot yourself in the foot.

...

...

...

...

Idea 2: Let the user select what screens he/she wants to use default: default/expert. On every screen in default there will be an option to see expert-options but you don't have to make the choice every time. yes This contradicts request for simplification as it adds another screen with options.

Serious, you make vague points. The one above I had to read 7 times and this one I don't understand neither. It DOES add a screen but default users won't see that screen.

You are asking for simplification, and adding options - default or - expert mode that must be shown somewhere. That is not what I see as a simpler.

...

...

For the asker: Options confuses people. The will read the options but probably they don't understand everything of it. Just make them hidden. Removing options is what MS did and now I'm using Linux. What is your proposal where to go if SUSE removes all options?

Darn, you are annoying man. Maybe have to be put in Expert?

Options are network settings, user names and passwords, and many other things that user must provide, whether knows what they mean or not. I just finished reinstallation of another windows box, and their attempt to make everything simple doesn't cut good. Users that have no clue about technical details need assistance anyway, and than "simple" dialogs are annoyance for guy that knows what has to be done. They should rethink who is target audience? Give me one screen with all settings and let me finish configuration ASAP. Nice little windows with one or two input fields are help for nobody.

...

...

...

...

Idea 3: This one is stolen from Vista. Drop those radiobuttons (round things) and replace it with an nice arrow that directly reponse. don't always try to mimics windows. I don't know vista and don't want to know about it :-). I like to be able to groups my answers, the less screens the better Don;t get you're point. This thing does not generate more pages. It just makes sure you only have to click ones instead of "select option C" - "Next". It feels more 'direct' to do it with action-buttons. Don't be afraid to mimic Vista on some point. Maybe we won't agree with their bussiness and source-model but that does not mean their graphical design is bad.

Brrrrrr, ik dislike Linux-fanboys that ban everything from MS only because it is MS. Wrong, Azerion. It is disliked because it's a lot of eye candies without content, and reference MS is just to save typing.

The content does not change with this idea. You only miss the [next] button at those pages cause the acion will be there if you click the option.

The simple doesn't mean only lesser screen content. If you have check boxes where you select all that applies, than you need "next" button. Now if you introduce one click on screen with radio buttons it is different behavior and new users will have to learn new mode and make more mistakes until they learn. For you as experienced user that is small improvement, but for novice that sometimes learns how to use mouse during installation, it is yet another problem. And still:

...

I don't like to see that kind of "user friendly" here. Computers are complex devices, and operating systems are not mind readers to guess what I want to do with. Installation programs have to ask questions, and user must be able to answer. If they are not clear what was asked the only exit is good (not necessarily large) help.

The question is the same....Do you read the plan?

What plan? Do you mean instructions? Yes if I have new device in my hands.

Now: - read 4 options - click option 1 - click next Next page

Then: - read 4 options - click option 1 Next page

This is slowdown, but it is not important. How many times one user that is target of simple installation will perform it? Not many, with long periods between, and saving few clicks brings nothing, but making procedure more complex with 2 different results of one action that we can call "select option".

...

...

...

...

Idea 4: Do not show more information the needed in default. I don't care what step I have had and which one will come next. I do care much. this is a very good thing, don't change it, please. It's very fequent to be disturbed during a work (phone call...) and you must know where you are when coming back True, you want to know where you ARE. You don't have to know where you HAVE BEEN. I know that I have partitionized and selected a language...... Hello, how to locate where I'm with single word. How many steps was before and how many comes is important. BTW, just as it is in MS, just different graphics.

Why should you know where you located?

Because I like that way. I want to know what is done, and what is coming. I don't want to hang in front of the screen, but when I'm back I need status, and it means what is done and what is coming. There was a lot of discussions against oversimplification that produces only lesser content in one window, but then I need more clicks to get where I want.

Somebody said: sometimes I install 3 PC's at the same time. Good, then you are probably not Joe Avarage so it can be placed in Expert.

The problem of Joe Average is that he has no clue about technicalities, and simple screens will be problem for guy that actually is doing installation for Joe.

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Lees info in the screen, as default, is good. Don't turn slide show off. There is not much information ;-)

Read further my friend....

:-) I already did.

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Idea 5: Take care of that you show a lot of nice things in the slideshow. 3 buttons: prev, next, diashow. It uses some space on the disk but new users will welcome it.... honestly I don't like the slideshow, I HATE advertisements. If slide show tyhere is, it should be _usefull_ (list of new points, some help...) YOU hate them, YOU won't watch them if you are installing openSUSE. YOU are expert and YOU know what openSUSE brings to your desktop.

I do also, new users don't. And I guess we will have to focus on new users at some points. Experts won't see the slide-show after all (even if it includes release-notes)

Azerion, I'm helping computer users to get computer running, and I have seen many times that simple as in windows doesn't help them, but takes my time, forcing me to look in logs (if present), instead to have status listed right on the screen. As stated earlier, computers are complex devices and whoever wants to install or configure operating system and applications must understand what is written on the screen, and fill in data that are specific for particular location and computer use. There is no OS vendor that can do that in advance, and there is no much space left to simplify that input. Again, only way is online help for every step of the way, or assistance from experienced user. I vote for more appealing graphic solution, but not to remove content. YaST is already very simple in case of default configuration. Going further in name of Joe Average, will put road blocks for people that mostly do installation for him, experienced users. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote:

Rajko M a écrit :

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The simple doesn't mean only lesser screen content.

most of the time, complicated mean "I don't understand".

It always mean that for a new user. Surely some stuff can be made easier, but time and again simple screen is not real help. The way to get help article that will explain what to do, where to find more information, will cut much better than "simple" screen. If one doesn't want to read, than he will either mess up the installation and look for help after, or straight look for assistance. That is how it works. Assuming that something can be made simple by removing screen content is plain wrong, but that is what I repeated few times, with more details, in previous answer to Azerion.

an icon with "http" may mean nothing for newbie, may be "web server" is better, but it's not that sure :-)

You can safely assume that if http, that one can see every moment during browsing, doesn't mean nothing to user, than "web server" means even lesser. Whoever wants to play with "do it yourself" web server, must learn some basic information about how the web works, and there is no way to skip it. If one doesn't want to learn there is a plenty of companies that will do everything, from web design to technical setup and web hosting. The only thing that user has to know is where to find money for the bills.

May be yast could have a two level "swhowroom", one for only newcommers, the other for more experienced user (and the better of them will probably never use yast :-) - but this is not for install.

That is what Azerion proposes as default (no information) and expert (all available settings). YaST is already configured that way and there is no much playroom for further simplification, before we start to develop quasi simple installation. I have no good word for many windows with few words (looks simple) that replace one configuration screen. What I don't know on one screen I will not know split in 10 screens, so I will need online help to read about, or someone to explain me (walk me trough, perform installation for me).

what is true is than most of the setups should be backported to a second session, after the first install. It's too annoying to make all an install again because the modem was not found correctly and crashes the install.

I agree. YaST is trying to install all and that often has as result failed installation, but this is related to hardware database entries that list hardware as a safe, and it is not. What is the reason? Could be bad entry in HCL that hardware works, but it works only under certain conditions. Problems can be: 1) manufacturer didn't listed limitations, or is using good sold device name for a different hardware base. 2) driver works for a specific hardware or firmware version, or works with some unlisted tweak. The problems with hardware database can't be avoided with Linux device driver distribution model, but they are addressed with recent Novell initiative that promotes vendor active role in distribution of device drivers in the same way as it is done in MS based solutions. Until that model will get proper vendor support, impact of installation lockups can be minimized with installation model that writes status on hard disk, or other media, and can detect that there was previous installation attempt, and have log that can tell where installation was interrupted. Than, for instance, if interrupt was on some device driver test, than a message about it shows up on the screen, asking user to clarify what was the reason for broken process: - power outage - manual power off for following reason: -- keyboard or/and mouse doesn't work for a long period (must be stated how many seconds is long for older and slower computers) -- blank or garbled screen - computer restarted by itself and than installation process will send info message to the user: - it will leave device installation for later - it will attempt to install device again. Present status is that YaST installation is designed very safe for dual boot systems, so it doesn't write to hard disk before it is ready for Linux. That makes impossible to have an installation log.

A good install session would give a running system with a basic graphical screen (800x600?) and no network (if not used for install)

It should attempt to give all, but if it doesn't work there must be safe fallback option. IMHO, anything is better than total failure. This reminds me that when I try to help somebody there is no troubleshooting system that is easy to start and get informations if on the other side is new Linux user, but that is another topic. I think it will be the best place to discuss it on this mail list, as improvement idea. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd wrote: ...

there is already such a help during install (the left column). It is a very good thing, but could probably be enhanced. may be the left column is not the better place, small width column is not that pleasant to read.

I didn't mention that help as it is not always what is actually needed, and little place for text, as you mentioned, is what it makes that way.

some contents could be default values (ie for IP, "if you don't know, use 192.168.0.2") or "you can di this later with yast/networks"

YaST installation already makes many good guesses. I would have to go step by step to find places where it might be better.

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Assuming that something can be made simple by removing screen content is plain wrong,

depends of the screen content :-) ...

I meant removing content as highest priority and general rule, not that nothing has to be changed/improved.

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You can safely assume that if http, that one can see every moment during browsing, doesn't mean nothing to user, than "web server" means even lesser.

do you really type http each time? do you know it's optional? :-).

:-) I said you can see. That doesn't mean that anyone reads that, and even lesser types ;-)

for most people, http mean an html page, not a server. Most people can understand Apache is the better web server, used anywhere, but why is apache used as "httpd", why is the web site located in .../htdocs ?

The most of the people that is using Linux fit in above sentence, but most of the people are actually using preinstalled OS, and they know that Apache is member of Apache tribe. For them expression "Apache is web server" has some other meaning, if any at all.

many many things can be enhanced with good doc coming right when it's usefull. I like much the little windows coming under the mouse cursor and the two levels of such things OpenOffice.org have; but I don't see such thing at install time :-)

Key F1 advertised on every screen with message "Press F1 for help" that provides context sensitive help, will do a good job. Those little windows means more programming that SUSE guy have to do, and they don't work with text mode. Generally, yes they are useful. Specially if programmer didn't forget that some people don't need them and included option to turn them off :-)

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Whoever wants to play with "do it yourself" web server, must learn some basic information about how the web works, and there is no way to skip it.

what surprised me the most was how much it is easy to have his own web server running (not on the internet, only in intranet) - time ago this was default on most distros (try "localhost" in the browser :-)

I meant real web server, not Intranet.

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May be yast could have a two level "swhowroom", one for only newcommers, the other for more experienced user (and the better of them will probably never use yast :-) - but this is not for install.

That is what Azerion proposes as default (no information) and expert (all available settings).

may be not. The expert needs the less information. The newbie needs infos and little options

Wrong expression, sorry. Under information I meant total screen content with questions, input fields, help buttons, "do it" buttons. Sincerely I would appreciate one big list of all selections and configuration options, that I can fill at once, and that let installer work it's way to the bootable system.

There where several parts in Azerion mail (if I correctly understand). He asked for a full screen YaST, why not? and for an simple/expert install, what is not stupid.

I can agree with that. Window frame doesn't mean nothing during installation, as it has no function like normal. I think that they use it just because it is easier to program same look and feel with the rest of the YaST, not that it is really needed.

We could have "basic options" (do the rest later), and "all options". Not really a newbie/oldtimer difference, but in the first you have a working system fast and with the second you could answer all the questions at first and let it work later (may be)

We have basic and all options hidden under "Other" button, and almost all is KDE or GNOME.

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YaST is already configured that way and there is no much playroom for further simplification,

I don't think the problem is really there. the problem is that _at install time_ we have very few power at hand, don't know of the hardware and need a very small ram requirement. so we can't give all the bells and whistles we would like to have.

I understand what you mean, but comments were about simplification of installation process that is visible to users. There is not much to do, at least nothing that will deserve attribute "radical change". More power at install time would be very good. I'm not a CLI guru, and that is all what you have during boot time. I can do most of tasks, but I feel better if I have handy Midnight Commander. ...

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2) driver works for a specific hardware

3) driver is buggy (I mean hardware on board driver), it's not normal that cdrom could freeze a computer, but some do)

That comes under faulty hardware specifications. One is written and the other is happening. The CDROM has a little chance to freeze computer, but driver that has no fallback to very basic IDE state, or breaks when get improper answer from device, can do that easily.

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Present status is that YaST installation is designed very safe for dual boot systems,

and it should stay so...

Agree. What has to be added is an option, very minimal installation that makes drive writable (resized and formated) very early. That will allow to trace interrupted installation attempts, as described in previous mail. -- Regards, Rajko. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Friday 25 August 2006 13:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Michael Löffler is currently on vacation and asked me to discuss the following, it's based on his latest draft. All errors are mine naturally ;-)

Please give feedback and of course if there's something missing - tell us.

Hello all , i'm like to see some updates in the Belgium Eid software included with SuSE. The current SuSE10.1 version is old and my firefox crash or lock while the card is still plugged in. I did some successfull testing with following updates : eID-belgium-2.5.9 (from 2.3.13) -Fixes firefox locks , includes beidgui to read eID card (wxgtk based app) to suppor signing of mails in KMail i had to update following packages gpg2-1.9.22 (from 1.9.18) : included belgium eID and other european eID support . libksba-0.9.15(from 0.9.12) : used by gpg2 pcsc-lite-1.3.1 (from 1.2.9) : card reader interface , also updated the card drivers ( pcsc-acr38) greetings, Luc --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Luc Willems writes:

On Friday 25 August 2006 13:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

Michael Löffler is currently on vacation and asked me to discuss the following, it's based on his latest draft. All errors are mine naturally ;-)

Please give feedback and of course if there's something missing - tell us.

Hello all ,

i'm like to see some updates in the Belgium Eid software included with SuSE. The current SuSE10.1 version is old and my firefox crash or lock while the card is still plugged in.

I did some successfull testing with following updates :

eID-belgium-2.5.9 (from 2.3.13) -Fixes firefox locks , includes beidgui to read eID card (wxgtk based app)

to suppor signing of mails in KMail i had to update following packages

gpg2-1.9.22 (from 1.9.18) : included belgium eID and other european eID support .

libksba-0.9.15(from 0.9.12) : used by gpg2

pcsc-lite-1.3.1 (from 1.2.9) : card reader interface , also updated the card drivers ( pcsc-acr38)

Those should get updated for 10.2 - in fact besides gpg2 everything is done already. But we will not update them for 10.1 - but others might package those in the build service, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger, aj@suse.de, http://www.suse.de/~aj/ SUSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126