[opensuse-factory] openSUSE and Ubuntu's BulletBroof X
Hi All ! I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do. Do we want this reaction? Obviously not. BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line. I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE. What do you think of it ? -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW
In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do.
Do we want this reaction? Obviously not.
BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
What do you think of it ?
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...) It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
No. You almost always had run into trouble if you had forgotten to scale down resolution to 640x480 before the hardware change.
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
Why not, but it is not necessary. Serving fools should not be a goal of openSUSE. The quality is in other areas. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-09-20 at 22:44 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
No. You almost always had run into trouble if you had forgotten to scale down resolution to 640x480 before the hardware change.
No. For that cases you reboot in safemode. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjVh1EACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WmLwCePPldj2sKKdV1ZBLmeXHVf6+Q o/AAn31z9SUyG/u3yiPE0oWt8dmUwBve =V7Me -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Saturday 2008-09-20 at 22:44 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
No. You almost always had run into trouble if you had forgotten to scale down resolution to 640x480 before the hardware change.
No. For that cases you reboot in safemode.
Not better than the need to call sax2 by hand, so what do you want to exclaim? Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 2008/09/20 22:44 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
No. You almost always had run into trouble if you had forgotten to scale down resolution to 640x480 before the hardware change.
In my experience, that was never necessary with W98+. In WinXP at least, it drops back to no worse than its default 800x600, but is often smart enough to get at least to 1024x768, and even better with competent DDC/EDID availability. It won't necessarily find the optimum driver automatically for the new hardware, but it won't stick you in an unusable state.
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
Why not, but it is not necessary.
Because other distros do it? I just pulled a Fedora 4 (released July 2005) SCSI HD out of one machine with ET6100 gfxcard the other day to stick in another with G400 and didn't even think about the video difference. X came right up in 1024x768 on a CRT. Then I changed its gfx card to a Radeon, and it did just as well. Mandriva Cooker behaves similarly, on boot automatically, without asking or opportunity to intervene, creating a brand new xorg.conf from scratch and saving the old as xorg.conf.old. Knoppix manages at least 9 times out of 10 to automatically give a working X just by booting its CD. IIRC, *buntu was competent in this regard last I tested, but since https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/129910 happened I've touched it little. My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/20 22:44 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
No. You almost always had run into trouble if you had forgotten to scale down resolution to 640x480 before the hardware change.
In my experience, that was never necessary with W98+. In WinXP at least, it drops back to no worse than its default 800x600, but is often smart enough to get at least to 1024x768, and even better with competent DDC/EDID availability. It won't necessarily find the optimum driver automatically for the new hardware, but it won't stick you in an unusable state.
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
Why not, but it is not necessary.
Because other distros do it? I just pulled a Fedora 4 (released July 2005) SCSI HD out of one machine with ET6100 gfxcard the other day to stick in another with G400 and didn't even think about the video difference. X came right up in 1024x768 on a CRT. Then I changed its gfx card to a Radeon, and it did just as well. Mandriva Cooker behaves similarly, on boot automatically, without asking or opportunity to intervene, creating a brand new xorg.conf from scratch and saving the old as xorg.conf.old. Knoppix manages at least 9 times out of 10 to automatically give a working X just by booting its CD. IIRC, *buntu was competent in this regard last I tested, but since https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/129910 happened I've touched it little.
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected. But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect. Remember: serving fools ... Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:28 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Does it? I don't remember having to configure my graphic card/screen when I installed this computer. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:28 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Does it? I don't remember having to configure my graphic card/screen when I installed this computer.
Really? Lucky one stupid. Please don't forget the matter. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:44 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Hi,
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:28 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Does it? I don't remember having to configure my graphic card/screen when I installed this computer.
Really? Lucky one stupid. Please don't forget the matter.
I've read your mail at least 5 times. Can you elaborate? I don't understand your message here... Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:44 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 02:28 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Does it? I don't remember having to configure my graphic card/screen when I installed this computer.
Really? Lucky one stupid. Please don't forget the matter.
I've read your mail at least 5 times. Can you elaborate? I don't understand your message here...
OK, once again: serving fools just creates a new fool - in this case, probably not you. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 2008/09/21 02:28 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected.
Is that some question?
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Exactly the meaning of interactive, being given questions, and providing answers, in order to get a most desired/best personal choice result. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 02:28 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected.
Is that some question?
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Exactly the meaning of interactive, being given questions, and providing answers, in order to get a most desired/best personal choice result.
So just call sax2, and you get it. If you have changed hardware pieces and do not think of maybe you have to change some configuration, you are more stupid as one can be. Somebody should have knocked you down before you fingered your hardware. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Am Samstag, 20. September 2008 18:21:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg: Eberhard, I am sick and tired of your rudeness. Please go away. -- Gruß Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Andreas wrote:
Am Samstag, 20. September 2008 18:21:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:
Eberhard, I am sick and tired of your rudeness. Please go away.
Go to sleep, and don't forget: serving fools ... Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Mönkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Göttingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Göttingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Prof. Dr. Christian Griesinger Sitz der Gesellschaft: Göttingen Registergericht: Göttingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sun, 2008-09-21 at 03:40 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Andreas wrote:
Am Samstag, 20. September 2008 18:21:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:
Eberhard, I am sick and tired of your rudeness. Please go away.
Go to sleep, and don't forget: serving fools ...
I know I'm about to be called stupid or a fool just for merely answering your email, but seriously, what are you so worked up about? If you don't like the topic, ignore it. Let others discuss and who knows, maybe the idea will die, or maybe something good will come out of it. Censorship through bullying doesn't bold well. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Bryen wrote:
On Sun, 2008-09-21 at 03:40 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Andreas wrote:
Am Samstag, 20. September 2008 18:21:02 schrieb Eberhard Moenkeberg:
Eberhard, I am sick and tired of your rudeness. Please go away.
Go to sleep, and don't forget: serving fools ...
I know I'm about to be called stupid or a fool just for merely answering your email, but seriously, what are you so worked up about? If you don't like the topic, ignore it. Let others discuss and who knows, maybe the idea will die, or maybe something good will come out of it. Censorship through bullying doesn't bold well.
I am not your censor. But I claim the right to tell my opinion just like you. If that makes a superior impression to you, you (not I) should think about it. Don't forget: serving fools... Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 2008/09/21 03:21 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 02:28 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected.
Is that some question?
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Exactly the meaning of interactive, being given questions, and providing answers, in order to get a most desired/best personal choice result.
So just call sax2, and you get it.
I know that, and you know that, but that's not what this thread is about. Fresh and recent converts from doz will be stumped and borrowing windoz puters to ask here and elsewhere what to do with a login prompt, how to get their GUI back; or shucking SUSE and going to *buntu or back to doz.
If you have changed hardware pieces and do not think of maybe you have to change some configuration, you are more stupid as one can be. Somebody should have knocked you down before you fingered your hardware.
Not every gfxcard change is a voluntary one, or planned, or done by someone with your advanced competence with SUSE and its shell prompt resources. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 03:21 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 02:28 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected.
Is that some question?
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Exactly the meaning of interactive, being given questions, and providing answers, in order to get a most desired/best personal choice result.
So just call sax2, and you get it.
I know that, and you know that, but that's not what this thread is about. Fresh and recent converts from doz will be stumped and borrowing windoz puters to ask here and elsewhere what to do with a login prompt, how to get their GUI back; or shucking SUSE and going to *buntu or back to doz.
If you have changed hardware pieces and do not think of maybe you have to change some configuration, you are more stupid as one can be. Somebody should have knocked you down before you fingered your hardware.
Not every gfxcard change is a voluntary one, or planned, or done by someone with your advanced competence with SUSE and its shell prompt resources.
Calling sax2 is the answer. Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity which should not be served. Remember: serving fools... Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 04:16 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Calling sax2 is the answer. Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity which should not be served.
Why should a user even know what sax2 is? If the solution is to start it, then why not just start it instead of expecting the user to know about it? Can you please explain me why it is better to not start it? (if your point is that you only want people knowing about sax2 to use openSUSE, then I would expect that a lot of people would disagree with this goal) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 04:50 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 04:16 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Calling sax2 is the answer. Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity which should not be served.
Why should a user even know what sax2 is? If the solution is to start it, then why not just start it instead of expecting the user to know about it?
The user might be an expert with Debian, for example, and have no idea that sax2 exists. He is not fool. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWJsgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UfzgCeLEp4zkmMctITt3GEvUXwI6uO 690An2ILhUSrAUTONo81WSWwGgVWegwi =oXxf -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Sunday 21 September 2008 05:49:41 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 04:50 +0200, Vincent Untz wrote:
Le dimanche 21 septembre 2008, à 04:16 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg a écrit :
Calling sax2 is the answer. Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity which should not be served.
Why should a user even know what sax2 is? If the solution is to start it, then why not just start it instead of expecting the user to know about it?
The user might be an expert with Debian, for example, and have no idea that sax2 exists. He is not fool.
It was just Eberhard's bad day. You can find bunch of examples, experts in their fields, using Linux for the job. You can remember few guys asking advice on the list. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, 2008-09-21 at 04:16 +0200, Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Calling sax2 is the answer. Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity which should not be served.
Remember: serving fools...
Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
It is beyond comprehension that you are actually implying that new users are unwelcome to openSUSE, which pretty much what you're saying. "If you don't know it, don't come here." For that matter, let's just stop promoting, improving, and welcoming people to openSUSE. After all, that would just be serving fools. Bryen --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/09/21 04:16 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
I know that, and you know that, but that's not what this thread is about. Fresh and recent converts from doz will be stumped and borrowing windoz puters to ask here and elsewhere what to do with a login prompt, how to get their GUI back; or shucking SUSE and going to *buntu or back to doz.
If you have changed hardware pieces and do not think of maybe you have to change some configuration, you are more stupid as one can be. Somebody should have knocked you down before you fingered your hardware.
Not every gfxcard change is a voluntary one, or planned, or done by someone with your advanced competence with SUSE and its shell prompt resources.
Calling sax2 is the answer.
Of course, but the question is how that should come to pass.
Not knowing that it is nesessary is just stupidity...
Remember: serving fools...
User not knowing that it is necessary is ignorance, not stupidity. Stupidity, and foolish, is assuming all SUSE users have an innate ability to cure every particular ignorance, or more importantly, should even need to in this type situation. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 20 September 2008 06:21:02 pm Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 02:28 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
My preference would be for SaX2 to come up in interactive mode when new gfxcard is detected.
Why not, if new pci device is detected.
Is that some question?
But at least, you want to have the "best" mode of your device configured, and that needs your personal intellect.
Exactly the meaning of interactive, being given questions, and providing answers, in order to get a most desired/best personal choice result.
So just call sax2, and you get it.
If you have changed hardware pieces and do not think of maybe you have to change some configuration, you are more stupid as one can be. Somebody should have knocked you down before you fingered your hardware.
That may be, however I ran into just such a situation a few weeks back. My wife's ATI card on her tower died. It would simply lock up the computer in anything but VGA mode. I then swapped it out for an older NVidia card I cannibalized from another system in my garage. Of course, that system balked, and booted into VGA Mode. Windows (in this case Win2K) then told me I needed to change drivers, which I did with little frustration. She's been up and running ever since. In that case - and I'm not defending Windows in general - I did not have to resort to the command line, nor did her system fail to boot. I was asked to reconfigure and install the appropriate drivers. -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Alexey Eremenko schrieb:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
Not true, you install a new GPU you have to install a new driver (in Windows), even worth, Windows might not even start anymore if you do not uninstall the old GPU driver before changing the GPU. Besides, those running suddenly and intransparently in vesa mode will only start complaining about their 3d support breaking. As you pointed out, configuration still needs to be done and I don't see the difference between calling sax2 from graphical mode or from CLI. It is exactly the same command as well as it does require excatly the same workflow. Felix -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjVZfQACgkQaQ44ga2xxArm4ACgrRbOsyEDcbgx2cp04FF7mJby aT0An2+kH89/iTtBJk1Q3j6ND9IR9mpy =s1Ux -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote:
As you pointed out, configuration still needs to be done and I don't see the difference between calling sax2 from graphical mode or from CLI. It is exactly the same command as well as it does require excatly the same workflow.
I still think it would be a good idea if we, on an X startup failure on first X startup after boot, when it can't load the video driver, would automatically load sax2. (written with this indentation to make if levels of that decision clear) At such a sax2 launch, we should note to the user that we failed to start the graphical interface because of a wrong video driver configuration, and either auto-detect a working config right away or let the user choose to do so, which should be able to end up in saving this new X config and launching into X and xdm, kdm, auto-login or whatever the user has set his box to. In any case, we should offer a "Cancel and exit to text mode" which basically does end up where we end up right now. This isn't that that much of a "new technology", it's just a user-friendly way of getting out of an awkward situation - and technically it's just detecting that series of if cases mentioned above and launching an already existing application with maybe slightly adapted UI texts. OK, I'm saying this as someone who is just a simple user of openSUSE but someone who knows about open source development and someone who's deep into open source project organization, and I know the main part of this is probably "make a patch and submit it for reviews", which I'm unable to do, so I can't expect it to get magically fixed. I hope I could present this idea in a form that someone capable of developing it can understand it, and I hope someone actually interested in seeing this can come up with a patch and submit it, as it's surely a feature that would help the openSUSE experience for people not as knowledgeable as us (I guess anyone daring to try Factory is able to cope with calling sax2 himself, we see worse things than failing kernel boots or failing grub stag2, to name some that happened to me recently). Robert Kaiser --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Content-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.0809210136100.18331@nimrodel.valinor> The Saturday 2008-09-20 at 23:25 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote:
As you pointed out, configuration still needs to be done and I don't see the difference between calling sax2 from graphical mode or from CLI. It is exactly the same command as well as it does require excatly the same workflow.
I still think it would be a good idea if we, on an X startup failure on first X startup after boot, when it can't load the video driver, would automatically load sax2.
(written with this indentation to make if levels of that decision clear)
At such a sax2 launch, we should note to the user that we failed to start the graphical interface because of a wrong video driver configuration, and either auto-detect a working config right away or let the user choose to do so,
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjViXcACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UU4wCgiEWrULJVM9OzR39hAY8HYO1l IOEAmQH2ezF2USN46gRfWMGiXcopdEPN =DQZa -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hi, On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Saturday 2008-09-20 at 23:25 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Felix-Nicolai Müller wrote:
As you pointed out, configuration still needs to be done and I don't see the difference between calling sax2 from graphical mode or from CLI. It is exactly the same command as well as it does require excatly the same workflow.
I still think it would be a good idea if we, on an X startup failure on first X startup after boot, when it can't load the video driver, would automatically load sax2.
(written with this indentation to make if levels of that decision clear)
At such a sax2 launch, we should note to the user that we failed to start the graphical interface because of a wrong video driver configuration, and either auto-detect a working config right away or let the user choose to do so,
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
You see. Just understand "not working" as "I am asked to run sax2". In that situation, this thought should come by itself. Remember: serving fools ... Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Carlos E. R. wrote:
At such a sax2 launch, we should note to the user that we failed to start the graphical interface because of a wrong video driver configuration, and either auto-detect a working config right away or let the user choose to do so,
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
Why? With what I wrote, you can still cancel it easily and have no changes applied anywhere. Unknowing users are right in the mode where they can correct the problem by usually just click something like "use this proposed configuration" or however it's worded and it launches up their usual graphical system right away. _That_ is user-friendliness. Robert Kaiser --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 02:50 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
Why? With what I wrote, you can still cancel it easily and have no changes applied anywhere. Unknowing users are right in the mode where they can correct the problem by usually just click something like "use this proposed configuration" or however it's worded and it launches up their usual graphical system right away. _That_ is user-friendliness.
Because chances are I may know better what to repair, and I do not want to have to wait for sax to initialize its stuff before canceling it. For instance, I may be using the proprietary nvidia driver installed manually, and forgot to deactivate it after a kernel upgrade, before recompiling the driver. I can manually edit the single line to nv instead of running sax. Or I may be using a manually tailored config file, prepared for several monitors and drivers, and so prepared to edit a line or two to select which one to use today. I thus prefer being given the choice of what to do. I have no objection to firing sax2 at a simple keypress, but not unasked. Remember that linux should cater both for experts and for novices. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjVoDkACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UoxwCfYkr3duATlztXwh42HNxqW40A /2gAoJi7HhqyUfN0Gf2msSam39Lnsy0t =FHiN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 03:15:34AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 02:50 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
Why? With what I wrote, you can still cancel it easily and have no changes applied anywhere. Unknowing users are right in the mode where they can correct the problem by usually just click something like "use this proposed configuration" or however it's worded and it launches up their usual graphical system right away. _That_ is user-friendliness.
Because chances are I may know better what to repair, and I do not want to have to wait for sax to initialize its stuff before canceling it.
Than you're already on a different knowledg level. Maybe not yet at the same (ignorant) one as Eberhard - sorry Eberhard, but with your attitude you had been able to readjust my computer habit 15 years ago but you'll not convince any Linux newbee of today.
For instance, I may be using the proprietary nvidia driver installed manually, and forgot to deactivate it after a kernel upgrade, before recompiling the driver. I can manually edit the single line to nv instead of running sax.
You are an advanced user. Someone starting will not know about the pain of third party drivers and all the side effects.
Or I may be using a manually tailored config file, prepared for several monitors and drivers, and so prepared to edit a line or two to select which one to use today.
Corner cases compared to the non working config this discussion is about.
I thus prefer being given the choice of what to do. I have no objection to firing sax2 at a simple keypress, but not unasked. Remember that linux should cater both for experts and for novices.
Even that would be better. The question is how the question to the user should look like. To me it has to be as simple as possible and the default confirmation button must lead to a working X again. The 'no, I need the Eberhard whip' should only be the non default, second option. Simply present the current workflow to users working in the social sience area. I only had been able to convince two of such in more than ten years to use Linux as the _only_ operating system. And several times it had been a non working X setup - even without any changes to the hardware - stopping them to continue their work. Even without propriatory drivers. A 'normal' user uses the computer to solve non computer problems. At the end in the huge majority of cases a simple call to sax solved the issue. And that's where Robert hit the nail central on the head. To stress it very clear: I don't like to kick advanced users like Eberhard into their back - even if Eberhard has deserved this on a regular base anyhow ;). For users on this level we need a sysconfig setting to disable any automatic startup of sax. We might even display this opportinity as a hint if we start sax automatically on boot. I'm very happy to address the concerns of advanced users. But in this case an automatically starting sax looks like an huge advantage to the majority of users compared to the disadvantages we cause to experienced users. Would such a sysconfig configurable solution be an acceptable tradeoff? If yes I'll summarize the discussion and file a feature request to get this addressed by the development of upcoming releases. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SuSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
On Sunday 21 September 2008 03:10:33 am Lars Müller wrote:
The question is how the question to the user should look like. To me it has to be as simple as possible and the default confirmation button must lead to a working X again. The 'no, I need the Eberhard whip' should only be the non default, second option.
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions. We can handle users questions like:"Why Google Earth doesn't work?", but at least we have user online, instead in front of terminal screen without clue what to do. When X fails with normal xorg.conf, instead of bailing out with error message, just start it with xorg.conf.vesa. The xorg.conf.install is missing many fonts, and that would be the only difference between them. That is possible to implement for 11.1 as it really don't ask for much work. Than later look how to start GUI with check what xorg.conf is running, and if it is not the best one tell that to user and offer options. Even without options, user will have clue that something is not OK before starting some 3D application, or will recall message when application drags like molasses. The principle can be extended to run proprietary driver first, than oss driver, than VESA. The last option when VESA fails would be CLI, with large scrollable instructions what to do. First of which would be how to come back to that instructions, and than how to repair X. It is good for everybody. Old guard knows how to Ctrl-Alt-F1, but in case they need GUI instantly they will heave it. New guys can use net to get help without learning how to login, find in a crystal ball that typing password in a text mode gives no visual fedback. Than use crystal ball again to learn that apropos exist, how to use it, how to wade trough sometimes large output, and the same about man, sax2, mutt, links, TAB completion, and another 50 useful things. All that in an hour they left to write homework, or just to see who is on line, and then go to sleep, work, school, visit, whatever. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:17:47PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 21 September 2008 03:10:33 am Lars Müller wrote:
The question is how the question to the user should look like. To me it has to be as simple as possible and the default confirmation button must lead to a working X again. The 'no, I need the Eberhard whip' should only be the non default, second option.
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with configuration from installation (xorg.conf.install), I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal and he will change that by using the appropriate YaST module (which is a frontend to SaX2). I don't see the problem here. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/09/21 19:52 (GMT+0200) Stefan Dirsch composed:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:17:47PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Once non-experinced user sees only login prompt, he's already in trouble, and doesn't know how to reboot without power switch, reset button, or maybe CAD. Then too, does he have any idea what that failsafe mode is, or that it is a means to fixing what broke? If the system hasn't already auto-fixed at this point, good chance he isn't smarter than the devs who allowed him to get to this point in the first place.
Then, running X with configuration from installation (xorg.conf.install), I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal
Don't be too sure he will notice anything at all, or that if he does notice anything other than lack of speed, that he will recognize just what it is that is different, or any need to reconfigure to reach whatever it is that may be optimal.
and he will change that by using the appropriate YaST module (which is a frontend to SaX2). I don't see the problem here.
Upthread info & Google indicate other distros either auto-fix X or auto-start an interactive X configurator. I've seen no good reason demonstrated in thread for similar behavior (e.g. auto-start SaX2) not to be the configured SUSE default. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 02:27:25PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 19:52 (GMT+0200) Stefan Dirsch composed:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:17:47PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Once non-experinced user sees only login prompt, he's already in trouble, and doesn't know how to reboot without power switch, reset button, or maybe CAD.
Doesn't matter how he reboots the machine.
Then too, does he have any idea what that failsafe mode is, or that it is a means to fixing what broke?
IIRC Windows also has such a failsafe boot option, which starts the GUI in a low resolution mode. So he likely can expect or at least hope that openSUSE behaves similarly. AND after rebooting he has exactly two openSUSE boot options. Chances are rather high, that he simply tries failsafe this time before be reinstalls the system. I wouldn't underestimate our user base here.
Then, running X with configuration from installation (xorg.conf.install), I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal
Don't be too sure he will notice anything at all, or that if he does notice anything other than lack of speed, that he will recognize just what it is that is different, or any need to reconfigure to reach whatever it is that may be optimal.
Well, the idea of booting into failsafe is to fix the setup (in this case "Graphics card & Monitor") and reboot again into normal mode. Users know this procedure from Windows.
and he will change that by using the appropriate YaST module (which is a frontend to SaX2). I don't see the problem here.
Upthread info & Google indicate other distros [...] auto-start an interactive X configurator.
BTW, we had this feature for a long time (I no longer remember the details why we removed it, but it wasn't really appreciated and considered important enough) and gdm does something similar. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi,
BTW, we had this feature for a long time (I no longer remember the details why we removed it, but it wasn't really appreciated and considered important enough) and gdm does something similar. I did not even now it was removed yet ... ;)
I remember that I have used this feature with a SuSE 6/7 version, and found it very usefull. From the top of my head I think this was something with the hotplug coldplug startscripts... might be wrong here. And I myself remember reinstalling my SuSE 6.x system several times after a failed filesystem check as I had no clue what to do. :-(
Then too, does he have any idea what that failsafe mode is, or that it is a means to fixing what broke?
IIRC Windows also has such a failsafe boot option, which starts the GUI in a low resolution mode. So he likely can expect or at least hope that openSUSE behaves similarly. AND after rebooting he has exactly two openSUSE boot options. Chances are rather high, that he simply tries failsafe this time before be reinstalls the system. I wouldn't underestimate our user base here.
Sorry Stefan, in my opinion you might be wrong here. I know my way arround xorg.conf and the commandline and hopefully will be able to get the graphics back up again. But as a newbie I probably could not handle this situation and would EXPECT my system to show something graphically after inserting a new graphics card. There are two things that should work all the time: network for internet access and a minimal graphical interface! Without that there is no google and irc for a newbie. For me autostarting sax2 on graphics card change is something worthwhile. just my 2 cents Felix --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 09:28:18PM +0200, Felix Möller wrote:
BTW, we had this feature for a long time (I no longer remember the details why we removed it, but it wasn't really appreciated and considered important enough) and gdm does something similar. I did not even now it was removed yet ... ;)
I remember that I have used this feature with a SuSE 6/7 version, and found it very usefull. From the top of my head I think this was something with the hotplug coldplug startscripts... might be wrong here.
I think it was related to the startup scripts, but IIRC there were also other reasons.
Then too, does he have any idea what that failsafe mode is, or that it is a means to fixing what broke?
IIRC Windows also has such a failsafe boot option, which starts the GUI in a low resolution mode. So he likely can expect or at least hope that openSUSE behaves similarly. AND after rebooting he has exactly two openSUSE boot options. Chances are rather high, that he simply tries failsafe this time before be reinstalls the system. I wouldn't underestimate our user base here.
Sorry Stefan, in my opinion you might be wrong here.
I know my way arround xorg.conf and the commandline and hopefully will be able to get the graphics back up again. But as a newbie I probably could not handle this situation and would EXPECT my system to show something graphically after inserting a new graphics card.
There are two things that should work all the time: network for internet access and a minimal graphical interface! Without that there is no google and irc for a newbie.
For me autostarting sax2 on graphics card change is something worthwhile.
I don't think, that we're going to reintroduce this. Although I wasn't involved in this decision I'm afraid there were good reasons to remove this feature. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On 2008/09/21 21:04 (GMT+0200) Stefan Dirsch composed:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 02:27:25PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/21 19:52 (GMT+0200) Stefan Dirsch composed:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:17:47PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Once non-experinced user sees only login prompt, he's already in trouble, and doesn't know how to reboot without power switch, reset button, or maybe CAD.
Doesn't matter how he reboots the machine.
You missed my point. He's already in trouble. Reboot should not be/should not have been, necessary at all. Why do you think he'll expect reboot to help, or know to try a reboot?
Then too, does he have any idea what that failsafe mode is, or that it is a means to fixing what broke?
IIRC Windows also has such a failsafe boot option, which starts the GUI in a low resolution mode.
I just tested this by removing the AGP card installed by the Vendor when the Dell GX260 shipped originally, then booted XP SP3 from the onboard i845G. It had been set to 1152x864 for the Radeon AGP. It did indeed come up in low resolution GUI mode (640x480), and popped up a balloon: Your computer's screen resolution and color depth are currently set to a very low level. You can get a better picture by increasing these settings. To do this, click this balloon. It also opened the found new hardware wizard offering to search for and install appropriate drivers. When I clicked the balloon, it opened another window (Display Settings): Do you want Windows to automatically correct your screen resolution and color depth settings?
So he likely can expect or at least hope that openSUSE behaves similarly.
Exactly, which I would expect to happen by SaX2 auto-starting, as long as boot was into runlevel 5.
AND after rebooting he has exactly two openSUSE boot options. Chances are rather high, that he simply tries failsafe this time before be reinstalls the system. I wouldn't underestimate our user base here.
High, yes. 100%, not a chance. Some install openSUSE not because of personal competence, but because someone recommended it as a good alternative to vendor lock-in, A/V & junkware overhead, and malware nightmares.
Then, running X with configuration from installation (xorg.conf.install), I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal
Don't be too sure he will notice anything at all, or that if he does notice anything other than lack of speed, that he will recognize just what it is that is different, or any need to reconfigure to reach whatever it is that may be optimal.
Well, the idea of booting into failsafe is to fix the setup (in this case "Graphics card & Monitor") and reboot again into normal mode. Users know this procedure from Windows.
I don't see from my experiment above that the Windows user has to make any choices to get into a mode that allows to replace lowfi video with normal video. My idea of failsafe mode has always been just to get Linux started at all. X11failsafe is something I didn't notice existed until recently. I don't believe it's at all obvious what to expect from choosing a failsafe selection from the Grub menu. Pressing F1 oh such an entry gives no explanation of x11failsafe. It lists only splash, apm, acpi & ide, far fewer than the number of cmdline parameters I see on the Boot Options line, and all of which showing by default are not among the four listed. -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
hi, my deepest apologizes, no wish to offend any one here. it took me 3 min to write a simple script to implement this "feature". it'll be used in our October's unofficial Enlightenment LiveCD. also we'll make a simple package for all who wish to build their own custom Enlightenment LiveCD (and put there all we've missed or forgot about). this script uses 'Entrance' as a login manager and require some minor adjustments for 'gdm', 'kdm, 'xdm', etc. (Entrance is quite unique login manager and cannot be used within the standard openSUSE routines). see the attachment. regards, sda
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 19:52 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWqe4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9ULagCdE0RTAqWazmwqVyVA9HUK4fc8 F5EAn2ZK4qGw6XOoIIgGa6Bm7sSyISTx =tiL0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:09:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 19:52 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start.
Who proposed this? Not me. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 22:13 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:09:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 19:52 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start.
Who proposed this? Not me.
No? The paragraph is yours. I'm happy to learn that I understood it wrongly. What did you mean, then? :-? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWvksACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VKkACdEqxMlJ3bbUTVnnB33fueLwZW 2ToAn1v8OxcCCOJfjbsZgr7bjt0QRHAN =x5j2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 11:36:10PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 22:13 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:09:16PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 19:52 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start.
Who proposed this? Not me.
No? The paragraph is yours. I'm happy to learn that I understood it wrongly. What did you mean, then? :-?
I did not propose to let the system reboot on its own to safemode. This is still a decision a user needs to take - as before. Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 23:54 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start.
Who proposed this? Not me.
No? The paragraph is yours. I'm happy to learn that I understood it wrongly. What did you mean, then? :-?
I did not propose to let the system reboot on its own to safemode. This is still a decision a user needs to take - as before.
Ok, that's better :-) But why reboot at all? Better restart runlevel 5 in safemode, however that's defined (vesa?). If that fails, propose to reboot in safemode. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWxmIACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WWvgCeKTCDWTNrJVfNcW74jfB1r4LT YmsAn3AAxmPeQddVq9+f3fSZV1/AT2KM =b0/z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:10:40AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 23:54 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
> Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console? Then, running X with
I would indeed be very pissed if the system rebooted on its own to safemode just because the X server failed to start.
Who proposed this? Not me.
No? The paragraph is yours. I'm happy to learn that I understood it wrongly. What did you mean, then? :-?
I did not propose to let the system reboot on its own to safemode. This is still a decision a user needs to take - as before.
Ok, that's better :-)
But why reboot at all? Better restart runlevel 5 in safemode, however that's defined (vesa?). If that fails, propose to reboot in safemode.
Chosing safemode means booting into runlevel 5. I suggest you give the safemode a try before further discussing this issue. Seriously. Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-22 at 01:39 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
But why reboot at all? Better restart runlevel 5 in safemode, however that's defined (vesa?). If that fails, propose to reboot in safemode.
Chosing safemode means booting into runlevel 5. I suggest you give the safemode a try before further discussing this issue. Seriously.
I'm sorry, but I do not understand. Safemode is just booting the kernel with special switches, like "ide=nodma apm=off acpi=off noresume nosmp noapic etc", which makes the cpu terribly slow, and at least till now, runlevel 3. I see that now it goes to runlevel 5, with option "x11failsafe" which is new for me and I don't know what it is. Is that what you mean? Going that route in my computer can take half an hour to boot, and many things did not work last time I tried (like the interrupts needed for network and help). - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjW4MoACgkQtTMYHG2NR9V1/gCePvOtYoZzzC+62tbW34WZwPGe klYAn3BsHJpEW/5vOQRAimpdTsjl07An =kadm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 02:03:19AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...] runlevel 3. I see that now it goes to runlevel 5, with option "x11failsafe" which is new for me and I don't know what it is. Is that what you mean?
Exactly. It's not expected that you know what x11failsafe is. In short, it means that X.Org uses xorg.conf.install instead of xorg.conf, which I'm calling a failsafe X configuration. It's expected to work. Otherwise the installation wouldn't have been possible. x11failsafe also helps when X using xorg.conf still starts, but freezes the machine or results in a blank screen. You cannot detect such a scenario automatically at all. You find more details about this in Bug #246158. Of course a third boot option would have been imaginable ("X11 failsafe") without the other kernel options, but I didn't even consider to request it. I'm sure it would have been rejected to prevent requests for even more boot options with people's favorite kernel boot options. Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Monday 2008-09-22 at 04:26 +0200, Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 02:03:19AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
[...] runlevel 3. I see that now it goes to runlevel 5, with option "x11failsafe" which is new for me and I don't know what it is. Is that what you mean?
Exactly. It's not expected that you know what x11failsafe is. In short, it means that X.Org uses xorg.conf.install instead of xorg.conf, which I'm calling a failsafe X configuration. It's expected to work. Otherwise the installation wouldn't have been possible. x11failsafe also helps when X using xorg.conf still starts, but freezes the machine or results in a blank screen. You cannot detect such a scenario automatically at all. You find more details about this in Bug #246158.
(Very intersting bugzilla. Should have been mentioned earlier)
Of course a third boot option would have been imaginable ("X11 failsafe") without the other kernel options, but I didn't even consider to request it. I'm sure it would have been rejected to prevent requests for even more boot options with people's favorite kernel boot options.
Dunno :-) I think you should reconsider that third boot option. I almost never would have tried booting into failsafe nor recomend anyone to do so in order to get the X going. I haven't used failsafe in years, I think. This "x11failsafe" seems too good a thing to be hiding in there. I have read at least three posts here, not newbies, declaring that they did not know it. I think it could be a boot option, plus a command line; when runlevel 5 fails, it could print a little text recomending to use one of those alternatives: reboot in x11failsafe mode start X11 in x11failsafe (print exact command) start sax2 (print exact command) Perhaps display a text dialog for all that. Perhaps request root password, it would not be nice for a user to reboot a server. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXeAsACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Ui9QCfdyu1TiFdUarhjpA/5AGFcXuO aSsAoIafNsVvIpUmF5koTJXZMw27FpuO =MpXM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 21 September 2008 12:52:38 pm Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not start VESA to have some GUI and then ask questions.
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Which will give you the same login.
Then, running X with configuration from installation (xorg.conf.install),
The average is not aware of CLI commands, and with motd that tells "Have a lot of fun ..." is far from help. Just imagine: You sit in front of screen that you don't know what to do with. The Internet is on the other side, in the GUI that you can't see. Boot back in Windows and all works fine. You really must need openSUSE for some other reason to keep it after this, and there is no many users of that kind. So many will boot in Windows and ask how to remove Linux. I've seen few of them in the forums and mail lists that I follow.
I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal and he will change that by using the appropriate YaST module (which is a frontend to SaX2). I don't see the problem here.
Well this is possible if Failsafe will give you some GUI. All our support is online. You know that VESA is pretty safe bet. If one installed openSUSE than VESA works. While fiddling with xorg.conf.install is easy enough to describe, and I used it to bail out few users in forums, adding few more fonts making xorg.conf.vesa and starting X automatically with that, will make experience much better. If system started text mode login than it knows that X is not there, so what are other problems that I don't know about to run another command that will start VESA first? -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 08:06:02PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 21 September 2008 12:52:38 pm Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Which will give you the same login.
Which is wrong. It gives you a GUI. You didn't try it.
I would expect an average user will notice that resolution, color depth, mouse, keyboard ore touchpad settings are no longer optimal and he will change that by using the appropriate YaST module (which is a frontend to SaX2). I don't see the problem here.
Well this is possible if Failsafe will give you some GUI.
It does.
All our support is online.
You know that VESA is pretty safe bet. If one installed openSUSE than VESA works.
While fiddling with xorg.conf.install is easy enough to describe, and I used it to bail out few users in forums, adding few more fonts making xorg.conf.vesa and starting X automatically with that, will make experience much better.
xorg.conf.install, which we use for the 'x11failsafe' mode, is good enough. Who the hell still relies on server side font rendering for his desktop? Best regards, Stefan Public Key available ------------------------------------------------------ Stefan Dirsch (Res. & Dev.) SUSE LINUX Products GmbH Tel: 0911-740 53 0 Maxfeldstraße 5 FAX: 0911-740 53 479 D-90409 Nürnberg http://www.suse.de Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) ----------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sunday 21 September 2008 09:36:21 pm Stefan Dirsch wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 08:06:02PM -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
On Sunday 21 September 2008 12:52:38 pm Stefan Dirsch wrote:
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Which will give you the same login.
Which is wrong. It gives you a GUI. You didn't try it.
I should try Failsafe first, just because you said so, not after I answered, so my apology. It seems that I wasn't alone that had no clue what means x11failsafe. I can't say I haven't seen it as I had to fix menu.lst right after the instalation, but I was busy making sure that I can boot without annoyance of double grub boot screens (one after another), so I ignored it and finally forgot. It is obvious that I don't use Failsafe very often. I checked Release Notes and there is no word about it, and sincerely it is great improvement for so many users that should be mentioned. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 23:02 -0500, Rajko M. wrote:
Why not boot into failsafe mode after having seen this confusing error message "Login:" in the Linux console?
Which will give you the same login.
Which is wrong. It gives you a GUI. You didn't try it.
I should try Failsafe first, just because you said so, not after I answered, so my apology.
It seems that I wasn't alone that had no clue what means x11failsafe.
Yep. It seems that developers are good at developing things, but bad at making them known >:-)
forgot. It is obvious that I don't use Failsafe very often.
Not for years, if I can avoid it :-) Now I wonder, is it possible to have "x11failsafe" runlevel 5 without rebooting? - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXcJYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WdAACfVPDNd9SxU5UzaxFKODBn/jH9 Zg8An2IDBYwIXYG20KkabUlOLfWr7b9l =jLOx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Monday 22 September 2008 05:16:45 am Carlos E. R. wrote:
It seems that I wasn't alone that had no clue what means x11failsafe.
Yep.
It seems that developers are good at developing things, but bad at making them known >:-)
Well, they are developers, not marketing experts.
forgot. It is obvious that I don't use Failsafe very often.
Not for years, if I can avoid it :-)
Now I wonder, is it possible to have "x11failsafe" runlevel 5 without rebooting?
The point with rebooting is to have clean graphic card configuration state, that might be messed with failed X or driver. This is clear advancement, but there are still missing pieces that will tell new user what to do, maybe attempt to start X one more time before rebooting, etc. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
Why? With what I wrote, you can still cancel it easily and have no changes applied anywhere. Unknowing users are right in the mode where they can correct the problem by usually just click something like "use this proposed configuration" or however it's worded and it launches up their usual graphical system right away. _That_ is user-friendliness.
Because chances are I may know better what to repair, and I do not want to have to wait for sax to initialize its stuff before canceling it.
If you know that, you probably also know how to boot into runlevel 3, which won't even try to launch the X server and so will not end up trying to help you fix the startup failure by launching sax2 with those special notices. And if you don't know how to boot into runlevel 3 instead of 5 though the bootloader, then you're probably unlikely to be manually able to fix that X bustage. And if you are, they I'm sure it's no problem spending those few seconds that sax2 launch takes and cancel it. And rmember: serving what some people here seem to think of as "fools" is what made Windows so successful and is what we need to do if we ever want to have significant desktop market share. Robert Kaiser --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 14:55 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
Carlos E. R. wrote:
I'd prefer being asked before launching sax2.
Why? With what I wrote, you can still cancel it easily and have no changes applied anywhere. Unknowing users are right in the mode where they can correct the problem by usually just click something like "use this proposed configuration" or however it's worded and it launches up their usual graphical system right away. _That_ is user-friendliness.
Because chances are I may know better what to repair, and I do not want to have to wait for sax to initialize its stuff before canceling it.
If you know that, you probably also know how to boot into runlevel 3, which won't even try to launch the X server and so will not end up trying to help you fix the startup failure by launching sax2 with those special notices.
Yes, I also know that. But being the of the mad and forgetful scientific type, I will forget about the nvidia driver when YOU updates the kernel. As a matter of fact, sax will not solve this particular problem, don't you think? Plus, there are many things that can crash the X system, which I can not or will not predict but which I can often repair without Yast or sax. I prefer being dumped into a text terminal with an error message (or none), than being dumped into sax2, without having being let time to read the error message at my leisure. Therefore, if you propose "don't ask", then I will propose "do nothing", and let the fools be damned :-P Ie: either I'm asked "shall I start sax2 now?", or I will support the leave things as they are opinion. But trying to do things better for novices while pissing experts is not the way to go. Opensuse has to cater for both types. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWW10ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VBPgCfSJoO84xyELhMFBCjcfaP/fnf OlEAn0B09wZZqgW0uoDo0rrzHUezs8Td =amtq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Carlos E. R. wrote:
But being the of the mad and forgetful scientific type, I will forget about the nvidia driver when YOU updates the kernel. As a matter of fact, sax will not solve this particular problem, don't you think?
Actually, it would, in some way, as it would offer you a configuration with the open-source 2D driver, which at least would make the system working.
Plus, there are many things that can crash the X system, which I can not or will not predict but which I can often repair without Yast or sax.
You obviously haven't read my initial post, or you would have seen that my proposal would be to only do this if we failed to initialize the video driver, which we can detect from the X log easily. An X crash is something very different from a driver initialization failure.
I prefer being dumped into a text terminal with an error message (or none), than being dumped into sax2, without having being let time to read the error message at my leisure.
I prefer to actually get an error message and explanation, even as an expert user, and that's what this instance of sax2 needs to provide anyway to be really helpful - along with a cancel button to let me drop into text mode without actually touching any configuration and recompile my nVidia driver if I can (i.e. people like us who know how to do it, given we are lucky and have a source package matching the kernel, which I currently don't have due to inconsistent Factory state - and I was happy I knew how to get up sax2 and have it propose and use a config with the OSS 2D driver for now). Robert Kaiser --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 18:49 +0200, Robert Kaiser wrote:
But being the of the mad and forgetful scientific type, I will forget about the nvidia driver when YOU updates the kernel. As a matter of fact, sax will not solve this particular problem, don't you think?
Actually, it would, in some way, as it would offer you a configuration with the open-source 2D driver, which at least would make the system working.
Dunno. Of course it is possible to change from nvidia to nv, if you do do know that is the problem. But I doubt if it currently offers that change automatically - and probably it doesn't just change that line, it probably will want to change modelines and whatnot.
Plus, there are many things that can crash the X system, which I can not or will not predict but which I can often repair without Yast or sax.
You obviously haven't read my initial post, or you would have seen that my proposal would be to only do this if we failed to initialize the video driver, which we can detect from the X log easily. An X crash is something very different from a driver initialization failure.
Yes, I have read your initial mail. I may not remember every detail from it, though.
I prefer being dumped into a text terminal with an error message (or none), than being dumped into sax2, without having being let time to read the error message at my leisure.
I prefer to actually get an error message and explanation, even as an expert user, and that's what this instance of sax2 needs to provide anyway to be really helpful - along with a cancel button to let me drop into text mode without actually touching any configuration and recompile my nVidia driver if I can (i.e. people like us who know how to do it, given we are lucky and have a source package matching the kernel, which I currently don't have due to inconsistent Factory state - and I was happy I knew how to get up sax2 and have it propose and use a config with the OSS 2D driver for now).
I'd really prefer the cancel button before running sax, not after. It takes a long time here. I have no objection to a text with a brief analysis of the problem, that would be nice; but I do object to firing sax automatically. I prefer having an option. If it has to be this way, then I would want a sysconfig variable to disable it. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWqNgACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Vx/QCfaoPjeh2L5v7KXcK8OGqrfdxV RxoAniyMCrWQNL8q9LbAgr6fMGq+sJq7 =iYtq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:04:39PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: [ 8< ]
I have no objection to a text with a brief analysis of the problem, that would be nice; but I do object to firing sax automatically. I prefer having an option. If it has to be this way, then I would want a sysconfig variable to disable it.
That is what I tried to suggest with my initial mail. The default suggestion - only if the X server fails to start - should be "Start the tool to configure the graphical display mode?". At this level no one cares if this is sax, sax2, sax3 or huckselgucks. The question has to be simple and has to lead to start the configuration tool a novice users is able to use. Maybe even an automatic start after a reasonable timeout. Something like 60 seconds. But this is secondary. But we have to lead the majority of users to a working X configuration. The alternatives have been described in the thread several times. The expert will decide "Don't start the configuration tool." and will be lead to the non graphical login prompt. This type of users even will know which log files to check. While the other might not know how to deal with them at all. This approach combined with a hint how to disable this mechanism by a sysconfig setting should make both classes of users happy. All this has to be kept as simple as possible without to many questions. An additional sysconfig setting might even allow the experienced user to enable automatic configuration mode without any timeout. Consider a pool of systems booting from the same image. But the is a different enhancement. Let us focus first on the worst case a non working X configuration. Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team SuSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 22:55 +0200, Lars Müller wrote:
On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 10:04:39PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote: [ 8< ]
I have no objection to a text with a brief analysis of the problem, that would be nice; but I do object to firing sax automatically. I prefer having an option. If it has to be this way, then I would want a sysconfig variable to disable it.
That is what I tried to suggest with my initial mail.
The default suggestion - only if the X server fails to start - should be "Start the tool to configure the graphical display mode?".
Ok.
At this level no one cares if this is sax, sax2, sax3 or huckselgucks. The question has to be simple and has to lead to start the configuration tool a novice users is able to use.
Ok :-)
Maybe even an automatic start after a reasonable timeout. Something like 60 seconds. But this is secondary.
Ok
But we have to lead the majority of users to a working X configuration. The alternatives have been described in the thread several times.
Right.
The expert will decide "Don't start the configuration tool." and will be lead to the non graphical login prompt. This type of users even will know which log files to check. While the other might not know how to deal with them at all.
Yep.
This approach combined with a hint how to disable this mechanism by a sysconfig setting should make both classes of users happy.
All this has to be kept as simple as possible without to many questions.
Fine!
An additional sysconfig setting might even allow the experienced user to enable automatic configuration mode without any timeout. Consider a pool of systems booting from the same image. But the is a different enhancement. Let us focus first on the worst case a non working X configuration.
Sounds good to me. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjWvyAACgkQtTMYHG2NR9XXiwCfcBJ+MSsx28Q6tlT6enLDeXqt EGoAn0cupBuYV6tfYFR0yDRsyJsedZ2K =/upT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Saturday 20 September 2008 01:38:14 pm Alexey Eremenko wrote:
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
I tend to agree - if not completely automatic, at least wizard-driven. Though I'm an openSUSE evangalist, I cannot *wait* for the evil command line needs for simple admin things (like setting lppasswd) to be gone. After all, the last time I used a command-line based computer was my Apple II in 1983. I would hope things have advanced since then. </sarcasm> -- kai www.filesite.org || www.perfectreign.com remember - a turn signal is a statement, not a request --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Sunday 2008-09-21 at 21:05 -0700, Kai Ponte wrote:
This is not true. A lot of users are migrating from Windows - and in Windows it was always automatic, at least since Windows 95. (maybe before...)
It must be automatic, without touching command-line at all.
I tend to agree - if not completely automatic, at least wizard-driven.
Though I'm an openSUSE evangalist, I cannot *wait* for the evil command line needs for simple admin things (like setting lppasswd) to be gone.
After all, the last time I used a command-line based computer was my Apple II in 1983. I would hope things have advanced since then.
</sarcasm>
I miss command line mode in windows. Having to reboot in safemode and back several times to mend a broken video configuration is a nuissance, when a nice text interface would solve the problem in minutes :-P </more_sarcasm> Once upon a time, when I was in the move, instead of my high resolution display I had to use a "lowly" 1024, but portable. In linux the change was fast, it took me under a minute. In windows Me it was almost impossible, because there was no way to see the display and reconfigure it. Not even going to safemode solved it. I was very glad how easy was linux >:-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjXcs0ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9WsWACeM/kD2R610ezopESSpl3IBY/y /YkAnRdHhK25OE2lh3vgQ3EEWWJraiuc =VvOk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Saturday 20 September 2008 03:31:42 pm Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW
Alexey, I know that I didn't read that.
In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do.
Well, those that use Ubuntu, are good candidates. As a side comment, Ubuntu is good as a first step, but if you want real Linux you need openSUSE.
Do we want this reaction? Obviously not.
BulletProof
X
is a technology that can detect
Not loaded X server in a first instance, than it can look for reasons.
changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
I guess it is somewhere on long to do list ;-) Check bugzilla. Maybe there is already proposed enhancement. Actually script that is starting X knows very well that server doesn't run. What is missing is to add attempt to start system with /etc/X11/xorg.conf.install which is VESA driver based, and tell GUI to display message about suboptimal graphic driver. Of course next step would be to develop troubleshooter, and that might be nice task to start more community involvement in development. Instead of 20th version of BitTorrent client, 50th text editor, etc.
What do you think of it ?
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
Comment is perfectly valid for changed graphic adapter, but there are use cases where X will not start with configured driver, but instead to fall back to VESA, or generic driver, or start configuration automatically user will see terminal screen. For classic Linux users that is no brainer, but for new guys it is. They are used to reinstall stuff that gives no clue what to do next, and perfectly functional text mode doesn't give any clues. The motd is only "Have a lot of fun ...". Not much to start with, if you see login screen first time. -- Regards, Rajko --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
Is there some great deal of confusion between 'fool' and 'beginner'? I'd like our distro to welcome beginners and to help them gracefully and easily recover from odd things they may do. An expert will know she has to boot at runlevel 3 and run sax2. A beginner won't know that. He won't have the slightest clue what's going on. He won't even be able to access online docs, because the computer he needs for that is 'broken' (from his perspective). A good product will help the beginner to grow into an expert with joy. S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
Is there some great deal of confusion between 'fool' and 'beginner'?
I'd like our distro to welcome beginners and to help them gracefully and easily recover from odd things they may do.
An expert will know she has to boot at runlevel 3 and run sax2.
A beginner won't know that. He won't have the slightest clue what's going on. He won't even be able to access online docs, because the computer he needs for that is 'broken' (from his perspective).
A good product will help the beginner to grow into an expert with joy.
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Mönkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Göttingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Göttingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Prof. Dr. Christian Griesinger Sitz der Gesellschaft: Göttingen Registergericht: Göttingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right. But it's not that hard either, is it? And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem. I stepped into this thread because I believe Linux has world domination with Linux geeks already (and I dare to count myself into that group) --- so how do we improve the joy of Linux with people who'd like to just use it without understanding all of it's inner beauty? I think features like the one discussed here are needed if we want to bring the fun of using Linux to a wider, less adept audience. I think we have a great culture of helping each other interactively, in mail threads, in IRC, or even in web forums (shudder ;), a culture of documenting what Worked For Me in blogs and such. But some open source products IMNSHO rely too much on that interactive documentation around it. These products don't explain themselves in critical situations, nor repair themselves, they don't give pointers what to possibly do next in error messages or warnings. And I think we as the creators of such products have the choice to make them more accessible or more obscure to relative beginners. I'm very happy that you help maintaining gwdg bandwidth to provide Linux to these folks. I'd be even more happy if we could rely on your ummm moral support :) to make Linux not only more available but also more accessible to them. Do you also see many not-so-beginner Linux users to really benefit from the self-explanatory or self-repairing features discussed? What harm would they do to more adept users? I don't understand the objections. S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
On 2008/09/23 18:32 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console.
Anyone on this list close enough to Eberhard to pay a visit and figure out if he's been sober at all since this thread started? -- "Unless the Lord builds the house, its builders labor in vain." Psalm 127:1 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Felix Miata wrote:
On 2008/09/23 18:32 (GMT+0200) Eberhard Moenkeberg composed:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console.
Anyone on this list close enough to Eberhard to pay a visit and figure out if he's been sober at all since this thread started?
I've been wondering the same thing but was too polite to ask :-) (but it may not be alcohol related 8-) .) Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
Hi,
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console.
Hmmm. When we had the first laptops and people started switching networks carrying their laptops around, (wireless, _scary_) our networking guys said, "Linux is a server operating system, you simply don't do that with unix", or, more bluntly: "How crazy can you be to switch networks of a running server?" We had long and hard discussions wether it was 'allowed' at all to disconnect a unix machine from it's network and connect it to another one. Only after we got at allowing this foolish thing to happen, we were able to think about how we can make the system robust in such circumstances. In the same vein, I don't see why a relative beginner should not replace hardware parts or move the hard disk to another machine, maybe even if he doesn't know the beauty of the shell yet. And much more importantly: finding a good solution for that brings us to a single image that automatically gives best results on many different types of hardware. A reliable hardware autoredetection and driver configuration will greatly simplify laptop, workstation and even server deployment: It will also accelerate it, because then you can just throw an image to the disk, with rpm database and all, and it will just tune itself to the specific hardware at boot. I really don't see what would be bad about that? Difficult, maybe ;), but certainly A Good Thing. ? S. -- Susanne Oberhauser +49-911-74053-574 SUSE -- a Novell Business OPS Engineering Maxfeldstraße 5 Processes and Infrastructure Nürnberg SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console.
Hmmm.
When we had the first laptops and people started switching networks carrying their laptops around, (wireless, _scary_) our networking guys said, "Linux is a server operating system, you simply don't do that with unix", or, more bluntly: "How crazy can you be to switch networks of a running server?"
We had long and hard discussions wether it was 'allowed' at all to disconnect a unix machine from it's network and connect it to another one. Only after we got at allowing this foolish thing to happen, we were able to think about how we can make the system robust in such circumstances.
In the same vein, I don't see why a relative beginner should not replace hardware parts or move the hard disk to another machine, maybe even if he doesn't know the beauty of the shell yet.
And much more importantly: finding a good solution for that brings us to a single image that automatically gives best results on many different types of hardware.
A reliable hardware autoredetection and driver configuration will greatly simplify laptop, workstation and even server deployment: It will also accelerate it, because then you can just throw an image to the disk, with rpm database and all, and it will just tune itself to the specific hardware at boot.
I really don't see what would be bad about that? Difficult, maybe ;), but certainly A Good Thing.
This sounds like you are really willing to enforce progress "for the poor experienced". Go on, but keep in mind: serving fools just creates a new fool - you. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Mönkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Göttingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Göttingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Prof. Dr. Christian Griesinger Sitz der Gesellschaft: Göttingen Registergericht: Göttingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
looks like we all kind off like you here
This sounds like you are really willing to enforce progress "for the poor experienced". Go on, but keep in mind: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
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Hi, On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, manchette wrote:
looks like we all kind off like you here
This sounds like you are really willing to enforce progress "for the poor experienced". Go on, but keep in mind: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
You have the free choice between all of your illusions. Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org) -- Eberhard Mönkeberg Arbeitsgruppe IT-Infrastruktur E-Mail: emoenke@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1551 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gesellschaft für wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH Göttingen (GWDG) Am Fassberg 11, 37077 Göttingen URL: http://www.gwdg.de E-Mail: gwdg@gwdg.de Tel.: +49 (0)551 201-1510 Fax: +49 (0)551 201-2150 Geschäftsführer: Prof. Dr. Bernhard Neumair Aufsichtsratsvorsitzender: Prof. Dr. Christian Griesinger Sitz der Gesellschaft: Göttingen Registergericht: Göttingen Handelsregister-Nr. B 598 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
2008/9/23 Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Hi,
Computer shouldnt be used. It makes people's life easy. Its just not right. If you are going to use a computer (which is wrong from the beginning), why bother with operating systems? Unix, multiuser, personal computer? Please, dont make me laugh. Come on, ENIAC didnt have an operating system. We did so well for years without one, why insist on unix and all this stuff? Computer just creates another fool: you. Stop using the computer. You have the free choice between all of your illusions. Lets face it, the only true non hypocritical solution is to go live with the animals in the middle of an uninhabited island in pacific. This thread should be in opensuse@opensuse.org, the list of the clowns Marcio --- Druid --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, manchette wrote:
looks like we all kind off like you here
This sounds like you are really willing to enforce progress "for the poor experienced". Go on, but keep in mind: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
You have the free choice between all of your illusions.
Oh gosh, and a philosopher as well! *What* a combination! -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Eberhard Moenkeberg wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, 23 Sep 2008, Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de> writes:
We were not talking about beginners - the course was about changing hardware pieces.
Ok, it's not the plain vanilla beginner stuff, right.
But it's not that hard either, is it?
And if the board crashes and you move the disk to another board you have the very same problem.
You simply should not do that if you are not able to enter a command at the console.
Why, for chrissake?! What *are* you talking about? I didn't have to enter any commands "at the console" until I entered the world of the Linux distros some years ago. Ciao. -- It's not possible to operate honestly using a basis of dishonesty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
On Tuesday 23 September 2008 10:17:28 Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
What harm would they do to more adept users?
I don't understand the objections.
Every time SaX2 is run, it trashes my Wacom configuration. (I have to edit xorg.conf to replace the pen entry with an entry for each pen, specifying their serial numbers, since SaX2 only configures a single "generic" pen that cannot distinguish one pen from another.) Automatic repair needs to repair my existing xorg.conf, not provide a new xorg.conf that drops relevant details. If this is not possible, the "cure" will be more inconvenient than the fault it attempted to fix. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Tuesday 2008-09-23 at 13:45 -0600, Warren Stockton wrote:
On Tuesday 23 September 2008 10:17:28 Susanne Oberhauser wrote:
What harm would they do to more adept users?
I don't understand the objections.
Every time SaX2 is run, it trashes my Wacom configuration. (I have to edit xorg.conf to replace the pen entry with an entry for each pen, specifying their serial numbers, since SaX2 only configures a single "generic" pen that cannot distinguish one pen from another.)
I guess somebody will ask about the Buzilla number where you reported this ;-)
Automatic repair needs to repair my existing xorg.conf, not provide a new xorg.conf that drops relevant details. If this is not possible, the "cure" will be more inconvenient than the fault it attempted to fix.
Yep. Well, it's clear that some will benefit from automatics (which is A Good Thing), and some will not. We need ways to easily dissable the automatics before they run. Like configuration options, or being asked before. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjZSaUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9Wa1gCfUCHMLCYQQ9abzuvGZCo6mPGj tfoAoJctJVplH0tp0RL2spY+w0VLm30M =ej51 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
2008/9/20 Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
Hi,
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW
In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do.
Do we want this reaction? Obviously not.
BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
What do you think of it ?
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
And there are a lot of fools who need education to overcome their foolishness. When I see comments like this I can truly understand why new users are flokking to other not named distros. Serving fools with good intentions some good information, creates good friends. cu --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
Hi, On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Birger Kollstrand wrote:
2008/9/20 Eberhard Moenkeberg <emoenke@gwdg.de>:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Alexey Eremenko wrote:
I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW
In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do.
Do we want this reaction? Obviously not.
BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
What do you think of it ?
Anyone who is changing his hardware this way and is not aware that he has to do some configuration steps (very simple here: just call sax2) is a fool. And don't forget: serving fools just creates a new fool - you.
And there are a lot of fools who need education to overcome their foolishness.
When I see comments like this I can truly understand why new users are flokking to other not named distros.
Serving fools with good intentions some good information, creates good friends.
Just one more who is willing to misunderstand - just to tell us some warm words, or by real stupidity? Viele Grüße Eberhard Mönkeberg (emoenke@gwdg.de, em@kki.org)
Am Samstag, 20. September 2008 13:25:42 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:
Hi All !
I believe everyonw has read that: http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2008091902235NWSW
In short: Today openSUSE's X server crashes if the video card gets upgraded. After reboot X doesn't start = reformat and reinstall <- That's what all new users will do.
Do we want this reaction? Obviously not.
BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
What do you think of it ?
I ran into this exact problem a while back when I started with Linux (SuSE 9.2, I believe), and I did exactly what you said: reformatting & reinstalling, getting quite a bit upset. Why did I not just search the support formus for a solution? Well, I did not have any dealings with the command line in Linux before, and I did not have another PC available to search the 'Net. In my opinion, all that's needed is a hint about what to do. A simple text, displayed if X does not start or crashes right away. Something like: "Could not start the graphical environment. Please log in as root and run 'sax2' from the commandline to detect changed hardware or drivers." -- Gruß Andreas --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Saturday 2008-09-20 at 14:28 -0700, Andreas wrote: ...
In my opinion, all that's needed is a hint about what to do. A simple text, displayed if X does not start or crashes right away. Something like: "Could not start the graphical environment. Please log in as root and run 'sax2' from the commandline to detect changed hardware or drivers."
Plus something like «type "less somefile" to read extended instructions» Mmm. First time I started with Linux, it took me a week to get X working, more to get it right. That was SuSE 5.2 or .3. There was no sax or I didn't know it. Some other program I have forgotten about :-) xconfig? On some new installs, testing the X mode could crash the install... leaving the system not fully installed, which is not nice for a novice. Reboot and reinstall... Thus I always installed to runlevel 3, for many years. Even now I'm wary of installing in runlevel 5... for no reason. Things are much easier now :-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkjVi4kACgkQtTMYHG2NR9UK9ACfcPOz0+jV3He4pcFQHM5SFh1G 9MMAn1ZcE+M35olgtXIAzolcrm5zkVlq =Z2nD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Alexey Eremenko wrote:
BulletProof is a technology that can detect changed video card, and use VESA driver instead automatically, without the need for using command-line.
I would like to see this technology adapted for openSUSE.
What do you think of it ?
In GNOME, this configuration option is known as XKeepsCrashing and should work in openSUSE 11.0 and correctly offer SaX. As gdm was completely rewritten, this feature may be broken in 11.1 beta. -- Best Regards / S pozdravem, Stanislav Brabec software developer --------------------------------------------------------------------- SUSE LINUX, s. r. o. e-mail: sbrabec@suse.cz Lihovarská 1060/12 tel: +420 284 028 966, +49 911 740538747 190 00 Praha 9 fax: +420 284 028 951 Czech Republic http://www.suse.cz/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org
participants (22)
-
Alexey Eremenko -
Andreas -
Basil Chupin -
Birger Kollstrand -
Bryen -
Carlos E. R. -
Druid -
Eberhard Moenkeberg -
Felix Miata -
Felix Möller -
Felix-Nicolai Müller -
Kai Ponte -
Lars Müller -
manchette -
Rajko M. -
Robert Kaiser -
sda -
Stanislav Brabec -
Stefan Dirsch -
Susanne Oberhauser -
Vincent Untz -
Warren Stockton