[opensuse-factory] openSUSE 101 - SUSE != openSUSE - openSUSE Factory

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[opensuse-factory] openSUSE 101 - SUSE != openSUSE

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[opensuse-factory] New Tumbleweed...

Richard Brown

20 Feb 2018 20 Feb '18

11:26

On 19 February 2018 at 18:37, Liam Proven wrote:

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You and I are both SUSE employees communicating via our SUSE email addresses. I do not know what you mean. I do not know what you mean when you keep talking about "we" versus "SUSE".

You and I are both openSUSE contributors communicating on an openSUSE mailinglist. Our employers and our choice of email address doesn't matter; But for clarification, you should note that I rarely post with my SUSE corporate email here, and my choice of email address has been the @opensuse.org address I've had for a lot longer than my employment with SUSE. Speaking personally, when posting here I feel I am most certainly an openSUSE contributor first, and a SUSE employee second, and choose my mail address accordingly. I do not judge those who choose differently from me, but given my position in the community though I also think it's important that I live & represent the reality that all openSUSE contributors are equal. So when I talk about "we" in this list, I am talking about openSUSE. That is the group which this mailinglist exists to address. You are the one who raised examples of SUSE's decisions in a way that implied you felt they should be considered as part of this openSUSE discussion about openSUSE's distributions. My replies are a rather direct attempt to make it very clear how that doesn't gel with what we do here in openSUSE (nor does it gel with how SUSE interacts with openSUSE).

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SUSE is not openSUSE.

It isn't?

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Their choices are not openSUSE's choices.

They aren't?

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openSUSE is an independent open source project

It is?

I could go through the above and all of your other comments on by one, but I do not want this to descend into a public spat. As a SUSE employee I think you should have a fair chance to educate yourself about how your employer interacts as part of this community https://rootco.de/2016-04-03-opensuse-and-you/ might be a good starting point https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/oggcamp-2017-opensuse-a-reintroduction also My talk at FOSDEM goes into those core themes about openSUSE works and how SUSE interacts as part of openSUSE in some more details - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5YKBS-KUe8 Do you think this will help? Regards, Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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Bruno Friedmann

20 Feb 20 Feb

11:49

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I could go through the above and all of your other comments on by one, but I do not want this to descend into a public spat. As a SUSE employee I think you should have a fair chance to educate yourself about how your employer interacts as part of this community

https://rootco.de/2016-04-03-opensuse-and-you/ might be a good starting point

https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/oggcamp-2017-opensuse-a-reintroduction also

My talk at FOSDEM goes into those core themes about openSUSE works and how SUSE interacts as part of openSUSE in some more details - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5YKBS-KUe8

Do you think this will help?

Yes and I would just add also the presentation made by Frédéric Crozat also at FOSDEM which quite explain how Leap and SLE are related https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.3.201/ developing_enterprise_and_community_distros.webm -- Bruno Friedmann Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship GPG KEY : D5C9B751C4653227 irc: tigerfoot -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

17:05

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:49:33 +0100 Bruno Friedmann wrote:

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Yes and I would just add also the presentation made by Frédéric Crozat also at FOSDEM which quite explain how Leap and SLE are related

https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.3.201/ developing_enterprise_and_community_distros.webm

Look, I want to understand this, but I have a day job here and I do not have time to watch videos. I'm sorry but it is my absolute least favourite form of learning. Does anyone please have any text-based links on this? I want to learn and understand here. I am told that I have upset people, for which I apologise unreservedly. It was not my intention. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

21 Feb 21 Feb

12:59

On 20/02/18 12:05 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

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On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:49:33 +0100 Bruno Friedmann wrote:

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Yes and I would just add also the presentation made by Frédéric Crozat also at FOSDEM which quite explain how Leap and SLE are related

https://video.fosdem.org/2018/K.3.201/ developing_enterprise_and_community_distros.webm

Look, I want to understand this, but I have a day job here and I do not have time to watch videos. I'm sorry but it is my absolute least favourite form of learning.

Indeed! We can read, and most of us can read a LOT faster than we can watch videos! We don't have to spell out each word. man of us are, in fact, 'speed readers'.

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Does anyone please have any text-based links on this?

I want to learn and understand here. I am told that I have upset people, for which I apologise unreservedly. It was not my intention.

Sometimes people get upset when you ask them to do something that is, well, different, just as you are asking here. I don't think you are being unreasonable in your request. And, hey, a "side-by-side' comparison list would be nice :-) My own observation: I attend the "SUSE Days" presentation as they come round each year. I know many of the other attendees, some I have known for decades. All I know are Linux users of some breed; some (open)SUSE, some other distributions, some use Windows too. Some cone from a corporate setting where the users get given Windows at their workstations but all the back end systems are Linux, and very often SUSE at that! I see the presentations from IBM and their demos of SUSE running on mainframes that are no larger than my bedside night-stand. I drool! What is remarkably absent is two things: The first, perhaps understandably, is any mention of openSUSE, even as a way of segue-ing into using SUSE. The second is the absence of a LiveCD. Or LiveUSB. I've BTDT and and know the costings for producing a custom CD/DVD or even a custom USB. Heck, the "gifts" we get, the caps, shirts, booklets, pens all add up costing more than that. A few years we did get all the presentations on a USB stick; I've re-purposed those, but they weren't big enough for a Live version. Prices have fallen significantly since then. Most years we get a DVD based "starter kit" with the (presumably cut-down) installation demo of current release of SUSE and another disk with all the presentation materials. I have a full set of those going back, what, more than five years. But no Live version. Something here doesn't make sense. Not least of all given the amount to time in the presentation about using the Build System to build your own, highly customized distribution. -- Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army. --Edward Everett -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

13:14

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 07:59:25 -0500 Anton Aylward wrote:

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Indeed! We can read, and most of us can read a LOT faster than we can watch videos! We don't have to spell out each word. man of us are, in fact, 'speed readers'.

Yes, me too.

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Sometimes people get upset when you ask them to do something that is, well, different, just as you are asking here. I don't think you are being unreasonable in your request.

Thank you!

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And, hey, a "side-by-side' comparison list would be nice :-)

I can see that *SUSE might be reluctant to do that. I know that Red Hat is very reluctant to explain products, features etc. by referring to them in Ubuntu terms. For instance, I had several members of a Red Hat team waste half an hour trying to explain to me what COPR was. What COPR is is very simple: it is Ubuntu-style PPAs, for Fedora. But they won't say that or refer to Ubuntu in any way, so... lots of wasted time. :-( In a FOSS world, it seems silly to me.

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My own observation:

I attend the "SUSE Days" presentation as they come round each year. I know many of the other attendees, some I have known for decades. All I know are Linux users of some breed; some (open)SUSE, some other distributions, some use Windows too. Some cone from a corporate setting where the users get given Windows at their workstations but all the back end systems are Linux, and very often SUSE at that! I see the presentations from IBM and their demos of SUSE running on mainframes that are no larger than my bedside night-stand. I drool!

What is remarkably absent is two things:

The first, perhaps understandably, is any mention of openSUSE, even as a way of segue-ing into using SUSE.

I can believe that.

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The second is the absence of a LiveCD. Or LiveUSB. I've BTDT and and know the costings for producing a custom CD/DVD or even a custom USB. Heck, the "gifts" we get, the caps, shirts, booklets, pens all add up costing more than that. A few years we did get all the presentations on a USB stick; I've re-purposed those, but they weren't big enough for a Live version. Prices have fallen significantly since then. Most years we get a DVD based "starter kit" with the (presumably cut-down) installation demo of current release of SUSE and another disk with all the presentation materials. I have a full set of those going back, what, more than five years. But no Live version. Something here doesn't make sense. Not least of all given the amount to time in the presentation about using the Build System to build your own, highly customized distribution.

That is indeed very strange. Live media are a very handy tool and I use them a lot. They are also a great way to test that an OS is going to work on your machine -- if the live medium works, you can be fairly sure that the installed OS will work. If the live medium won't, then probably the installed OS won't, either. And Gecko Linux shows that openSUSE can do it, no problem. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

13:57

On 21/02/18 08:14 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

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The second is the absence of a LiveCD. Or LiveUSB. I've BTDT and and know the costings for producing a custom CD/DVD or even a custom USB. Heck, the "gifts" we get, the caps, shirts, booklets, pens all add up costing more than that. A few years we did get all the presentations on a USB stick; I've re-purposed those, but they weren't big enough for a Live version. Prices have fallen significantly since then. Most years we get a DVD based "starter kit" with the (presumably cut-down) installation demo of current release of SUSE and another disk with all the presentation materials. I have a full set of those going back, what, more than five years. But no Live version. Something here doesn't make sense. Not least of all given the amount to time in the presentation about using the Build System to build your own, highly customized distribution. That is indeed very strange.

Live media are a very handy tool and I use them a lot. They are also a great way to test that an OS is going to work on your machine -- if the live medium works, you can be fairly sure that the installed OS will work. If the live medium won't, then probably the installed OS won't, either.

And Gecko Linux shows that openSUSE can do it, no problem.

I'll go further than that. There are MANY private individuals who have used the Build System to make custom openSUSE derived LiveDVD images or installation images, that are now publicly available. It's also a case of "You Can Too" if you are willing to put the time into learning the Build System, collecting the packages you want together and so on. If you want to make a very reduced system, say for JUST photo-editing, then it might even fir on a CD or 1G USB depending on how aggressive you are about editing the GUI/DisplayManager side of things. Or again if you just want enough to make an emulation that serves as a Cromebook loader. -- One supplier of software for bank dealing rooms takes the view that anyone who pirates its code is welcome, as using it without skilled technical support would be a fast way for a bank to lose millions. -- Ross Anderson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

14:16

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:57:25 -0500 Anton Aylward wrote:

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I'll go further than that. There are MANY private individuals who have used the Build System to make custom openSUSE derived LiveDVD images or installation images, that are now publicly available. It's also a case of "You Can Too" if you are willing to put the time into learning the Build System, collecting the packages you want together and so on. If you want to make a very reduced system, say for JUST photo-editing, then it might even fir on a CD or 1G USB depending on how aggressive you are about editing the GUI/DisplayManager side of things. Or again if you just want enough to make an emulation that serves as a Cromebook loader.

OK, I'll bite. :-) If it is so (relatively) easy... Is there a particular reason why the openSUSE boot/install medium is *not* a Live medium? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown

16:03

On 21 February 2018 at 15:16, Liam Proven wrote:

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On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:57:25 -0500 Anton Aylward wrote:

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I'll go further than that. There are MANY private individuals who have used the Build System to make custom openSUSE derived LiveDVD images or installation images, that are now publicly available. It's also a case of "You Can Too" if you are willing to put the time into learning the Build System, collecting the packages you want together and so on. If you want to make a very reduced system, say for JUST photo-editing, then it might even fir on a CD or 1G USB depending on how aggressive you are about editing the GUI/DisplayManager side of things. Or again if you just want enough to make an emulation that serves as a Cromebook loader.

OK, I'll bite. :-)

If it is so (relatively) easy...

Is there a particular reason why the openSUSE boot/install medium is *not* a Live medium?

I can think of some positive answers that seem obvious to me * Server installation offered from the media, not requiring a different media like other distros eg https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/615636/file/video.ogv * Text only installation (see video - yes, I know you hate videos, that's why I linked it. This one is only 3minutes long) * SSH/VNC based installation * Offering at least 2 different DE's as part of the installation (isn't that the whole point of this thread) * Supporting installation from a system with 1GB of RAM (I've never seen a live media run on less than 2GB) Then there is the negative ones * building Live Media is more complex, with more to go wrong, and they break more * there has been less interest shown in Live Media by the openSUSE community, with less fixes forthcoming when we've had them, meaning it's hard to emphasise them as a primary part of the distributions in that case. There's probably more reasons in both categories. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Anton Aylward

19:04

On 21/02/18 11:03 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

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Then there is the negative ones

* building Live Media is more complex, with more to go wrong, and they break more * there has been less interest shown in Live Media by the openSUSE community, with less fixes forthcoming when we've had them, meaning it's hard to emphasise them as a primary part of the distributions in that case.

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From the "more to go wrong" POV, I turn to Knoppix whenever I face new Intel-architecture PC hardware. It works, it works ALWAYS, whatever the hardware. It will figure out whatever the ports and disks and memory. I realise it is not done with the Build Service but it is FOSS and you can look at

Well, yes, and maybe, and maybe not, and no. And it's easy to segue from one to another, you just have to squint. The Build Service DOES have some LiveCDs there. I recall a couple related to KDE that I tried out ... I think they were labelled after some of the Nobel/inert gases. So someone got it right, and I'm sure those could be used as templates. Wait. I have a huge collection of 'installation' disks for openSUSE, Fedora, Mageia. I won't touch ubuntu! The Nobel KDEs don't seem to be there, but I do have LiveCD labelled disks for -- openSUSE 11.0 Gnome -- openSUSE 11.0 KDE 4.4 -- openSUSE 11.2 Gnome -- openSUSE 11.2 KDE -- openSUSE 11.3 alpha KDE 4.4 0447 -- openSUSE 13.2 KDE There are also a number for Fedora 15. the build template. So. certainly up to 13.2 I don't share Richard's jaundiced view of things; the evidence is otherwise. -- Each success only buys an admission ticket to a more difficult problem. -- Henry Kissinger, Wilson Library Bulletin, March 1979 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stasiek

19:10

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Wait. I have a huge collection of 'installation' disks for openSUSE, Fedora, Mageia. I won't touch ubuntu! The Nobel KDEs don't seem to be there, but I do have LiveCD labelled disks for -- openSUSE 11.0 Gnome -- openSUSE 11.0 KDE 4.4 -- openSUSE 11.2 Gnome -- openSUSE 11.2 KDE -- openSUSE 11.3 alpha KDE 4.4 0447 -- openSUSE 13.2 KDE

If you want to finish your collection, 11.1 disks are still hosted on https://software.opensuse.org/expert (I'm sorry, next version of software-o-o won't have that, I removed that site from repo, grab them while they are still there) LCP [Stasiek] https://lcp.world -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bernhard M. Wiedemann

19:55

New subject: [opensuse-factory] openSUSE liveCDs

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2018-02-21 16:03, Richard Brown wrote:

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* Supporting installation from a system with 1GB of RAM (I've never seen a live media run on less than 2GB)

you could have a look at my old handmade SUSE 7.3 and 8.2 based liveCDs http://www.lsmod.de/bootcd/ You can still try them today with qemu-kvm -cdrom ...iso -m 500 and see how much RAM it needs. My quick test shows 70MB used with KDE 3.1 running, plus 6MB of files in the tmpfs overlay (all writes are redirected to /tmp/ via 'translucency') When I last looked (~3y ago), the main trouble with newer KDE-based live CDs was that akonadi uses mysql which creates 2 large (128MB?) innodb binary log files - and with liveCDs they have to be kept in RAM and of course software in general became more hungry. At one point I had to upgrade my desktop from 4GB to 16GB because firefox filled it up too easily. My Thunderbird process alone is at 2.9GB today. The trouble with hungry applications on LiveCDs is that they do not have a swap partition available (it might be used for hybernation, so better dont touch anything). -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EARECAB0WIQRk4KvQEtfG32NHprVJNgs7HfuhZAUCWo3OkAAKCRBJNgs7Hfuh ZIxeAKC1bXe0yLhKnVwkqCmKOwNivBmzpwCfRCBFqGbzUKgI/lf1DGAGm1FW22A= =TOBv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

22 Feb 22 Feb

00:37

New subject: [opensuse-factory] openSUSE liveCDs

On 2018-02-21 20:55, Bernhard M. Wiedemann wrote:

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The trouble with hungry applications on LiveCDs is that they do not have a swap partition available (it might be used for hybernation, so better dont touch anything).

I understand that if there is a Linux swap there is a signature. And the Live can ask, or the user issue the command manually ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Liam Proven

14:13

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:03:28 +0100 Richard Brown wrote:

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I can think of some positive answers that seem obvious to me

* Server installation offered from the media, not requiring a different media like other distros

OK. Another stupid question! (They're a good way to learn.) Is it not possible to choose what system is installed from a live medium? The fact that it boots to a desktop, not an installer, doesn't somehow prevent that installer from offering a choice of installed systems, does it? I appreciate it might seem odd to boot (say) an LXDE live system, and then install KDE from it -- but LXDE will work acceptably on a machine with half a gig of RAM and basic 2D unaccelerated graphics, including a VM. Desktops that _require_ compositing, & fake it in software if it's not available, such as GNOME 3 and Cinnamon, or which default to it, such as KDE, won't boot successfully on such a spec, so they rule themselves out. I am assuming that the goal here is a one-DVD distro which offers the same choices as the current one.

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eg https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/615636/file/video.ogv * Text only installation (see video - yes, I know you hate videos, that's why I linked it. This one is only 3minutes long)

Argh! OK, when I have a moment. October is looking good. ;-)

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* SSH/VNC based installation

Good point, I hadn't thought of that.

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* Offering at least 2 different DE's as part of the installation (isn't that the whole point of this thread)

Quite.

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* Supporting installation from a system with 1GB of RAM (I've never seen a live media run on less than 2GB)

:-o Really? Wow. I have ones that run off a floppy in 4MB of RAM somewhere, but they're extremely old. I think I've seen graphical ones in 128MB. *Quick check* TinyCore is current and will run in 128MB. http://tinycorelinux.net/faq.html#req Yes, it's an extreme example, but still.

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Then there is the negative ones

* building Live Media is more complex, with more to go wrong, and they break more

Fair point. But then they also let the user know if it will break, that's part of their "selling point".

...

* there has been less interest shown in Live Media by the openSUSE community, with less fixes forthcoming when we've had them, meaning it's hard to emphasise them as a primary part of the distributions in that case.

Fair point.

...

There's probably more reasons in both categories.

Doubtless. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Jan Engelhardt

17:50

On Thursday 2018-02-22 15:13, Liam Proven wrote:

...

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* Supporting installation from a system with 1GB of RAM (I've never seen a live media run on less than 2GB)

:-o Really? Wow. I have ones that run off a floppy in 4MB of RAM somewhere, but they're extremely old. I think I've seen graphical ones in 128MB.

*Quick check*

TinyCore is current and will run in 128MB.

Strange that the basic installation, that is, the copying from source media to harddisk, needs much RAM at all. Just copy the source media itself (or one segment of it) to disk in a streamed operation. .. wait, that's just what KIWI images do - and then, the on-disk system could boot - and continue installation if so desired. I should not need to complain about yast2's higher-than-KIWI requirements :-p -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

18:02

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:50:19 +0100 (CET) Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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.. wait, that's just what KIWI images do - and then, the on-disk system could boot - and continue installation if so desired. I should not need to complain about yast2's higher-than-KIWI requirements :-p

Please excuse my ignorant question... What are KIWI images? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

18:30

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2018-02-22 19:02, Liam Proven wrote:

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On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:50:19 +0100 (CET) Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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.. wait, that's just what KIWI images do - and then, the on-disk system could boot - and continue installation if so desired. I should not need to complain about yast2's higher-than-KIWI requirements :-p

Please excuse my ignorant question...

What are KIWI images?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIWI_(openSUSE) KIWI is an application for making a wide variety of image sets for Linux supported hardware platforms as well as virtualisation systems including QEMU, Xen and VMware. It is developed by the openSUSE Project and used to create openSUSE Linux but can also be employed to build a variety of other Linux distributions. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlqPDDcACgkQja8UbcUWM1xaTgD9HXWDesEvXlvzEtabItIUHvBr 0KQCnCPVqCVPqWGH4i4A/jt6vwaJACygm8O5GSp6BHZxeDcwe8zcZ5fhYCqRGLw5 =7oqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

23 Feb 23 Feb

10:52

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:30:15 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIWI_(openSUSE)

KIWI is an application for making a wide variety of image sets for Linux supported hardware platforms as well as virtualisation systems including QEMU, Xen and VMware.

It is developed by the openSUSE Project and used to create openSUSE Linux but can also be employed to build a variety of other Linux distributions.

TFTI. The article reads like a member of staff or affiliated person wrote it. As such, and if that person or people are reading, the IBM link is dead and the Dell link requires a login. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlqP8oAACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBbvYg//VbDAgx1/NVQUIGQ69nq0WrTqxF5ASS+MD5Hat7OcWD8GnzREExFM3WXK 2F+hYPZJyRMc+pqoZ1LpKUxvmWm+wbWsTI3JGYGuhId2JlWguYY7nW2MCHcBgbye nANuX2sbs/BJrDtQxBE4+kBWGREI96TtYwpELPBKDIxEfmtlyW15lYTp4ylVwUd3 pXqH8LLff0XJ+rokKktVyny832HBClFNsnKNN3xtejNjvXCzLuUckDQvbKYWY0ev QHq2J9CW+hfOxiBJqDY/8yXDzrLOIty8k2mQGplz1OiIKwFkNixPs9A1krcAbgUC dsXMl6TeJvQZ5n8SiI+10S19ZbmiFLR3IIB3DHtbDG/4LxRoMQmTgWFrFsMnTThA uFmjgczJyp69A8GNLZdaH7QVilGI+yEH+LlgeqIcY+4OdGiTfNrYvYJmJ+NYjqFd mFClm87LhBUW2P4m1O+mU4YyQzAle13Z3bzrR8iDXGdvoVA88rOe2YeyEZ3VPNug bNkYIiYxBa0KZ3qlz2DS7rztqbq7aXKeqv/exJEJKDgBRFN12otE3J9BmYrMY/Te 4Dld7xoozNQgHQMtJd6eOkzW9TfGWosjD1d/7bx1G2/h3ZZ+9oPtUQigBG1HXAgW KOxOR7dzpumCK/w5o+v3T4leLE1dEsm24BXiWf+eFoSE1Q4Qkv8= =T5LA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- N��r��y隊Z)z{.��r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��r�+��0��Ǩ�

Werner Flamme

12:30

Liam Proven [23.02.2018 11:52]:

...

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:30:15 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIWI_(openSUSE)

...
KIWI is an application for making a wide variety of image sets for Linux supported hardware platforms as well as virtualisation systems including QEMU, Xen and VMware.

...
It is developed by the openSUSE Project and used to create openSUSE Linux but can also be employed to build a variety of other Linux distributions.

TFTI.

The article reads like a member of staff or affiliated person wrote it. As such, and if that person or people are reading, the IBM link is dead and the Dell link requires a login.

Since you found problems with this article, it would be nice if you modify it. A responsible author then has to check your annotations. It's no big use in discussing an issue in a wikipedia article on an openSUSE mailing list, I guess.

...

N��r��y隊Z)z{.��r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��r�+��0��Ǩrg==

And I can't find your key on the public servers ;) Werner --

Liam Proven

12:47

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:30:14 +0100 Werner Flamme wrote:

...

Since you found problems with this article, it would be nice if you modify it. A responsible author then has to check your annotations. It's no big use in discussing an issue in a wikipedia article on an openSUSE mailing list, I guess.

I've been a Wikipedia editor since 2003 or so, but I am not a neutral participant in this. Also, I do not know what the links originally pointed to. The only 2 references I could find to the IBM Smart Analytics System (guessed from the dead link) and "kiwi" pointed to a page featuring fruit, and this: https://www.suse.com/docrep/documents/kqrw2mbkhg/ibm_accelerates_deployment_... Which is on the SUSE site and thus hardly neutral material. Adding such links are I think _more_ likely to get the article flagged for deletion.

...

And I can't find your key on the public servers ;)

Ah. I did not know that was a requirement. I will investigate. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:08

On 2018-02-23 13:47, Liam Proven wrote:

...

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:30:14 +0100 Werner Flamme <> wrote:

...

...
And I can't find your key on the public servers ;)

Ah. I did not know that was a requirement. I will investigate.

Means that we can not import your key and verify your signature; if we can not import it, then the PGP signature is useless ;-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Werner Flamme

13:43

Liam Proven [23.02.2018 13:47]:

...

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:30:14 +0100 Werner Flamme wrote:

...
Since you found problems with this article, it would be nice if you modify it. A responsible author then has to check your annotations. It's no big use in discussing an issue in a wikipedia article on an openSUSE mailing list, I guess.

I've been a Wikipedia editor since 2003 or so, but I am not a neutral participant in this.

Also, I do not know what the links originally pointed to.

I'd say, for a starter it is sufficient to add some text like "(this link is dead)" oder "(this link needs an account with ...)". When someone rereads your annotations, he/she may remember what has been linked here and find another link as a replacement. It's OK that you want to do constructive work, but it can be hard to fix something when you don't know what's missing :) So currently I'd just give a heads up to the author by leaving those remarks. Werner --

Liam Proven

14:58

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:43:25 +0100 Werner Flamme wrote:

...

I'd say, for a starter it is sufficient to add some text like "(this link is dead)" oder "(this link needs an account with ...)".

Done. I've added the standard Wikipedia {{dead link}} tag. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

12:46

On 2018-02-23 11:52, Liam Proven wrote:

...

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:30:15 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIWI_(openSUSE)

...
KIWI is an application for making a wide variety of image sets for Linux supported hardware platforms as well as virtualisation systems including QEMU, Xen and VMware.

...
It is developed by the openSUSE Project and used to create openSUSE Linux but can also be employed to build a variety of other Linux distributions.

TFTI.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tfti +++........ tfti an acronym for Thanks For The Invite, usually used when a bunch of your buddies go out and they dont think to invite you ........++- Sorry, I don't get the meaning. Many of us have not English as our first language.

...

The article reads like a member of staff or affiliated person wrote it.

which is possible, LOL :-)

...

As such, and if that person or people are reading, the IBM link is dead and the Dell link requires a login.

And SUSE studio has disappeared very recently, yes. But both links work here, they are just wikipedia links. Ah, you mean the external ones at the bottom. I see. But it was the best I could think of how to explain what KIWI is. I could post you instead to "man kiwi" :-P -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Liam Proven

12:55

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:46:31 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

...
TFTI.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tfti

+++........ tfti an acronym for Thanks For The Invite, usually used when a bunch of your buddies go out and they dont think to invite you ........++-

Sorry, I don't get the meaning. Many of us have not English as our first language.

Sorry. It is "thanks for the _information_" not "invite".

...

...
The article reads like a member of staff or affiliated person wrote it.

which is possible, LOL :-)

Well, yes. :-) The thing is, that makes it a good candidate for deletion if the Wiki editors notice it.

...

...
As such, and if that person or people are reading, the IBM link is dead and the Dell link requires a login.

And SUSE studio has disappeared very recently, yes.

But both links work here, they are just wikipedia links. Ah, you mean the external ones at the bottom. I see.

Yes. I've fixed the Dell link now.

...

But it was the best I could think of how to explain what KIWI is. I could post you instead to "man kiwi" :-P

lproven@viper:~> man kiwi No manual entry for kiwi It was a good and helpful answer, though. I did not expect to find a Wikipedia entry for a SUSE corporate tool, though. And as when I Googled for info on IBM using it, I expected -- and got -- the fruit instead. ;-) P.S. I then tried: lproven@viper:~> cnf kiwi The program 'kiwi' can be found in the following packages: * kiwi [ path: /usr/sbin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] * python2-kiwi [ path: /usr/bin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] * python3-kiwi [ path: /usr/bin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] Try installing with: sudo zypper install Still doesn't really tell me anything useful... -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084

Aleksa Sarai

24 Feb 24 Feb

14:14

On 2018-02-23, Liam Proven wrote:

...

...
But it was the best I could think of how to explain what KIWI is. I could post you instead to "man kiwi" :-P

lproven@viper:~> man kiwi No manual entry for kiwi

It was a good and helpful answer, though. I did not expect to find a Wikipedia entry for a SUSE corporate tool, though. And as when I Googled for info on IBM using it, I expected -- and got -- the fruit instead. ;-)

(Coming back to the whole "openSUSE" versus "SUSE" thing -- KIWI is an openSUSE project. While the main maintainer might be a SUSE employee -- there is nothing "corporate" about its development or wide-spread usage. After all, the entire openSUSE distribution depends on it to create the installation media.)

...

lproven@viper:~> cnf kiwi

The program 'kiwi' can be found in the following packages: * kiwi [ path: /usr/sbin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] * python2-kiwi [ path: /usr/bin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] * python3-kiwi [ path: /usr/bin/kiwi, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ]

Try installing with: sudo zypper install

Still doesn't really tell me anything useful...

If you install it (which is what the output of "cnf" is telling you), then you will get the man pages. Another source of information about KIWI is the online documentation: https://suse.github.io/kiwi/ -- Aleksa Sarai Senior Software Engineer (Containers) SUSE Linux GmbH https://www.cyphar.com/

Aleksa Sarai

14:16

On 2018-02-25, Aleksa Sarai wrote:

...

...
It was a good and helpful answer, though. I did not expect to find a Wikipedia entry for a SUSE corporate tool, though. And as when I Googled for info on IBM using it, I expected -- and got -- the fruit instead. ;-)

(Coming back to the whole "openSUSE" versus "SUSE" thing -- KIWI is an openSUSE project. While the main maintainer might be a SUSE employee -- there is nothing "corporate" about its development or wide-spread usage. After all, the entire openSUSE distribution depends on it to create the installation media.)

Oh, and not to mention that KIWI supports other distributions as well. -- Aleksa Sarai Senior Software Engineer (Containers) SUSE Linux GmbH https://www.cyphar.com/

Carlos E. R.

22 Feb 22 Feb

22:14

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday, 2018-02-22 at 15:13 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

...

...
I can think of some positive answers that seem obvious to me

* Server installation offered from the media, not requiring a different media like other distros

OK.

Another stupid question! (They're a good way to learn.)

Is it not possible to choose what system is installed from a live medium? The fact that it boots to a desktop, not an installer, doesn't somehow prevent that installer from offering a choice of installed systems, does it?

Well... yes, it would be possible, you are right. In fact, the openSUSE installation DVD is a Live Linux, only that you can not freely interact with the desktop (although it has 3 or 4 text consoles, I miss having an xterm). It is a graphical desktop (I forgot which), and it offers a guided install with many complex options for choosing what to install and how. It is very powerful and versatile, a complex product. I guess it might run on top of a "standard" live, but it simply was not designed that way. It might be changed, but is it worth that effort? I doubt it. It would need lots of more ram. The current version also runs in text mode if wanted/needed. It is part of what we SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users are accustomed to ;-) The openSUSE Lives that could be installed used a different method. Basically they copied themselves over to the hard disk, no options offered. The last ones were for 13.2, but Tumbleweed also has them, since relatively recently I think. - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlqPQLYACgkQtTMYHG2NR9W2IQCghuueW2y+bFJeQ5H5SVmzA4eT pZsAnjtoICr2UPFkVypStnwNfs1ms48o =bU6z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

23 Feb 23 Feb

11:02

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 23:14:06 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

Well... yes, it would be possible, you are right.

In fact, the openSUSE installation DVD is a Live Linux, only that you can not freely interact with the desktop (although it has 3 or 4 text consoles, I miss having an xterm). It is a graphical desktop (I forgot which), and it offers a guided install with many complex options for choosing what to install and how. It is very powerful and versatile, a complex product. I guess it might run on top of a "standard" live, but it simply was not designed that way. It might be changed, but is it worth that effort? I doubt it. It would need lots of more ram.

More than the installed OS would need?

...

It is part of what we SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users are accustomed to ;-)

Well, fair enough -- and yes, it does seem to resemble my faint recollections of the tools I used to install SuSE Linux Professional 15-20 years ago. I suppose it would. But if a distro is to thrive, it must grow, right? And if it is to grow, it has to tempt people across from other distros and OSes, right? Well...

...

The openSUSE Lives that could be installed used a different method. Basically they copied themselves over to the hard disk, no options offered. The last ones were for 13.2, but Tumbleweed also has them, since relatively recently I think.

... that is pretty much what the 2 other leading distros from for-profit companies do. I suggest it's what people are used to these days. Shouldn't openSUSE at least offer the option? I have been trying out SLE, Leap and various flavours of Gecko in VMs recently. Gecko is very much more like the sort of installation experience I have come to expect, to be honest. It is really pretty good. I am told that Gecko includes stuff that openSUSE can't. For comparison, Mint used to do that with respect to Ubuntu. Until 2011 or so, Mint was just Ubuntu (complete with GNOME 2) but additionally including nVidia and AMD drivers, Flash player, Java, MP3 codecs and so on. Ubuntu was not legally able to distribute these in some countries -- mainly the USA, I *think* -- so it made them optional. Mint is Irish and just did it, as it's legal in the EU (again, AIUI.) When the Mint team discovered that this meant their distro could not be legally downloaded or distributed in some countries, they produced a separate "clean" version with the parts that couldn't be legally distributed removed. This did mean that it was even more like vanilla Ubuntu -- but with a green theme instead of brown (again: Irish :-) ) and with the GNOME 2 desktop rearranged with a single panel at the bottom, to be more Windows-like and more space-efficient on a 4:3 monitor. It would not be so hard for Gecko to do that, too. If that is all it would take to get Gecko Linux back under the "official" auspices of the openSUSE project, it might be worth pursuing. (Note: I do not know if that _is_ all. I am just speculating here. Despite my email address, I know nothing more about this than any other passer-by, and I am speaking for myself and not anyone else, including my employer.) No reason that the big "one size fits all" multi-desktop DVD images shouldn't be offered _as well_. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlqP9NYACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBZ5wBAArNWpIgTRdUx+xOHydWN7qWGQRASUPvlBMPAjUfthuXpefgD6ei9kYuC/ D2M+RMrO9Z9j2JrvwVtr7FxQxw4qMu8k4qp68xRA6wmeZDBH3w272p+BEV/zO61Z Oox6XCswbf1FochhzPchhJgEP10WCmkMCj8Qeoh+Sc2bk5QZEwU1V+qjfJWHc0M3 JctBl9IgFI26zIy6rwng6SVWWReWjqjIFjoGLXh7nJSs7TROFV4uRqA0kgADU+H2 A9eEsA5995fte7tDGu6s+vyJVqnMRsLc/NOldL8CHHml/OZyz3U5L6XQvIBXmMV1 rnj9h21xsV049kR+bMAK0DMdDSzNkiLSS+YlvnObsWTxD0D/3gYfTTbRnCHLjSiq vEbk6FIscH2B6FEOl3x6QXGYEsI1tVxDNi0SldCEc1cUnaDhADTktku9Sr2q+os9 EHymFGKzn/90fwOjOgFJ9A+9YAlQNPzHdqlwLO2r7GWk/6s2E234pb7ezrzvVnoX I3I1OWVKOUsNNn5nNbEbMwZAkaN9gx7klahJRYFLW/HHa8y57rzruJBepcAcw7ku /Bar8aO33G+qyv3a2Rh8qstxhai0XQZkxbiXMKVAhFZ6uJtsAPCvVMTxn35zeaR9 qkWsiWjNRZGrBE+fE+osMqkSpIlxmRWUZRjEGH3Sljk9dWsG5nQ= =Uq/m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- N��r��y隊Z)z{.��r�+�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��r�+��0��Ǩ�

Carlos E. R.

12:57

On 2018-02-23 12:02, Liam Proven wrote:

...

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 23:14:06 +0100 (CET) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

...
Well... yes, it would be possible, you are right.

...
In fact, the openSUSE installation DVD is a Live Linux, only that you can not freely interact with the desktop (although it has 3 or 4 text consoles, I miss having an xterm). It is a graphical desktop (I forgot which), and it offers a guided install with many complex options for choosing what to install and how. It is very powerful and versatile, a complex product. I guess it might run on top of a "standard" live, but it simply was not designed that way. It might be changed, but is it worth that effort? I doubt it. It would need lots of more ram.

More than the installed OS would need?

Yes, a Live typically uses more RAM than the normal system for the same apps, as it has to create a ramdisk for the system, and typically without access to swap. See, currently the install DVD needs about 1 GiB of ram to work (with 750MiB it walks, not runs), whereas the installed system in the same machine can run with about half. That "Live" has a very minimal X system, no apps (yesterday I learned it does have an Xterm (thanks Richard!). If you put a full desktop with its apps it will require more ram. And, now that I think about it, it would have many more things that could fail.

...

...
It is part of what we SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users are accustomed to ;-)

Well, fair enough -- and yes, it does seem to resemble my faint recollections of the tools I used to install SuSE Linux Professional 15-20 years ago. I suppose it would.

But if a distro is to thrive, it must grow, right?

And if it is to grow, it has to tempt people across from other distros and OSes, right?

...
Well...

Well, that's a point. But I would not touch the DVD install system, I would instead create Live CDs for testing and possibly installing KDE/Gnome/XFCE. I think they would be nice for shows and giveaways, too. IMHO, changing the DVD that lot might "piss" a number of the current openSUSE faithful.

...

...
The openSUSE Lives that could be installed used a different method. Basically they copied themselves over to the hard disk, no options offered. The last ones were for 13.2, but Tumbleweed also has them, since relatively recently I think.

... that is pretty much what the 2 other leading distros from for-profit companies do. I suggest it's what people are used to these days. Shouldn't openSUSE at least offer the option?

Maybe, yes.

...

I have been trying out SLE, Leap and various flavours of Gecko in VMs recently. Gecko is very much more like the sort of installation experience I have come to expect, to be honest. It is really pretty good.

I'm not familiar with Gecko. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Liam Proven

13:09

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:57:50 +0100 "Carlos E. R." wrote:

...

...
More than the installed OS would need?

Yes, a Live typically uses more RAM than the normal system for the same apps, as it has to create a ramdisk for the system, and typically without access to swap.

See, currently the install DVD needs about 1 GiB of ram to work (with 750MiB it walks, not runs), whereas the installed system in the same machine can run with about half.

That "Live" has a very minimal X system, no apps (yesterday I learned it does have an Xterm (thanks Richard!). If you put a full desktop with its apps it will require more ram. And, now that I think about it, it would have many more things that could fail.

Fair enough.

...

...
And if it is to grow, it has to tempt people across from other distros and OSes, right?

...
Well...

Well, that's a point.

But I would not touch the DVD install system, I would instead create Live CDs for testing and possibly installing KDE/Gnome/XFCE. I think they would be nice for shows and giveaways, too.

Agreed. Gecko provides just that, by the way.

...

IMHO, changing the DVD that lot might "piss" a number of the current openSUSE faithful.

That's a good point.

...

I'm not familiar with Gecko.

https://geckolinux.github.io/ I have looked at the Cinnamon and XFCE versions so far. I'm very impressed. Next on my list is LXqt. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar

13:16

On Fri, 2018-02-23 at 14:09 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

...

...
...
And if it is to grow, it has to tempt people across from other distros and OSes, right?

...
Well...

Well, that's a point.

But I would not touch the DVD install system, I would instead create Live CDs for testing and possibly installing KDE/Gnome/XFCE. I think they would be nice for shows and giveaways, too.

Agreed.

Gecko provides just that, by the way.

Just wondering: is http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/live/ known here? Seems people found some motivation again and started providing Live images for Leap again for Tumbleweed they never disappeared; so far still limited to GNOME/KDE/XFCE (Rescue); At least the KDE one is also used in openQA for installation, so we are sort-of sure that the installer on the KDE Live image works (note: it is a NET installer - NOT copying the live image onto the HDD (there were many fun/weird errors coming from that) Cheers Dominique

Liam Proven

13:30

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:16:45 +0100 Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

...

Just wondering: is http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/live/

known here?

Seems people found some motivation again and started providing Live images for Leap again

for Tumbleweed they never disappeared; so far still limited to GNOME/KDE/XFCE (Rescue); At least the KDE one is also used in openQA for installation, so we are sort-of sure that the installer on the KDE Live image works (note: it is a NET installer - NOT copying the live image onto the HDD (there were many fun/weird errors coming from that)

Thanks for that! I will check them out. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink

14:22

Op vrijdag 23 februari 2018 14:16:45 CET schreef Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar:

...

Just wondering: is http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/live/

known here? th Seems people found some motivation again and started providing Live images for Leap again

for Tumbleweed they never disappeared; so far still limited to GNOME/KDE/XFCE (Rescue); At least the KDE one is also used in openQA for installation, so we are sort-of sure that the installer on the KDE Live image works (note: it is a NET installer - NOT copying the live image onto the HDD (there were many fun/weird errors coming from that)

Cheers Dominique Awesome, downloading the GNOME Live iso right now. Just saw they're openQA tested as well. IMO we should test, then send out a loud message to the community.

-- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team Linux user #548252 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Ludwig Nussel

27 Feb 27 Feb

07:46

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:

...

Op vrijdag 23 februari 2018 14:16:45 CET schreef Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar:

...
Just wondering: is http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/live/

known here? th Seems people found some motivation again and started providing Live images for Leap again

for Tumbleweed they never disappeared; so far still limited to GNOME/KDE/XFCE (Rescue); At least the KDE one is also used in openQA for installation, so we are sort-of sure that the installer on the KDE Live image works (note: it is a NET installer - NOT copying the live image onto the HDD (there were many fun/weird errors coming from that)

Awesome, downloading the GNOME Live iso right now. Just saw they're openQA tested as well. IMO we should test, then send out a loud message to the community.

In the works. The machinery to auto release Live's is not running unattended yet, openQA tests¹ are not green anyways and software.o.o remains to be relaunched to actually list Leap 15. Speaking of the latter, someone with talent in writing technical texts would be welcome to file some pull requests there². Judging from the German translations I have the feeling that the English texts are already somehow a bit bulky and therefore make translations harder or at least not straight forward. Discussions about that should go to the translations list to share experience with other language teams³. cu Ludwig [1] https://openqa.opensuse.org/group_overview/53 [2] https://github.com/openSUSE/software-o-o [3] https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation/ -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

23 Feb 23 Feb

18:17

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2018-02-23 a las 14:16 +0100, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar escribió:

...

Just wondering: is http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/live/

known here?

I think I noticed them the other day, yes, then forgot. Personally, I have never installed from the lives, but I'm very insterested in the XFCE rescue image, which was not there.

...

Seems people found some motivation again and started providing Live images for Leap again

for Tumbleweed they never disappeared; so far still limited to GNOME/KDE/XFCE (Rescue); At least the KDE one is also used in openQA for installation, so we are sort-of sure that the installer on the KDE Live image works (note: it is a NET installer - NOT copying the live image onto the HDD (there were many fun/weird errors coming from that)

Being NET installers should be clearly shown somewhere, lest people with bad Internet download them because they are smaller, then being surprised at install time. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlqQWs8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1w/xAD+K6V7AbMcg5WJwCAspRZhEfZw cP5Fn+Bparqr5fdpq8EA/i8/Fb7asiMRwj1/B1XRTfRRJH9AaG0TJg/clD/xSGxW =zKWl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa

12:15

On 02/22/2018 11:14 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On Thursday, 2018-02-22 at 15:13 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

...
...
I can think of some positive answers that seem obvious to me

* Server installation offered from the media, not requiring a different media like other distros

...
OK.

...
Another stupid question! (They're a good way to learn.)

...
Is it not possible to choose what system is installed from a live medium? The fact that it boots to a desktop, not an installer, doesn't somehow prevent that installer from offering a choice of installed systems, does it?

Well... yes, it would be possible, you are right.

In fact, the openSUSE installation DVD is a Live Linux, only that you can not freely interact with the desktop (although it has 3 or 4 text consoles, I miss having an xterm).

Ctrl+Shift+Alt+x and you can have as many as you like https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:YaST_tricks#YaST_Hotkeys You are welcome ;-)

...

It is a graphical desktop (I forgot which),

IceWM

...

and it offers a guided install with many complex options for choosing what to install and how.It is very powerful and versatile, a complex product. I guess it might run on top of a "standard" live, but it simply was not designed that way. It might be changed, but is it worth that effort? I doubt it. It would need lots of more ram.

The installer is basically this command of top of that IceWM yast2 installation --fullscreen

...

The current version also runs in text mode if wanted/needed.

Which is, basically this command in the tty1 yast2 installation --ncurses

...

It is part of what we SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users are accustomed to ;-)

The openSUSE Lives that could be installed used a different method. Basically they copied themselves over to the hard disk, no options offered. The last ones were for 13.2, but Tumbleweed also has them, since relatively recently I think.

Cheers. PS.- "basically" means I'm oversimplifying a lot. Things are always more complex under the hood. -- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

13:06

On 2018-02-23 13:15, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...

...
In fact, the openSUSE installation DVD is a Live Linux, only that you can not freely interact with the desktop (although it has 3 or 4 text consoles, I miss having an xterm).

Ctrl+Shift+Alt+x and you can have as many as you like https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:YaST_tricks#YaST_Hotkeys

You are welcome ;-)

Wonderful! :-)) Thanks, I want to try this :-) (Maybe I was told of this time ago and I forgot - it is not on a help screen, IIRC)

...

...
It is a graphical desktop (I forgot which),

IceWM

...
and it offers a guided install with many complex options for choosing what to install and how.It is very powerful and versatile, a complex product. I guess it might run on top of a "standard" live, but it simply was not designed that way. It might be changed, but is it worth that effort? I doubt it. It would need lots of more ram.

The installer is basically this command of top of that IceWM yast2 installation --fullscreen

...

...
The current version also runs in text mode if wanted/needed.

Which is, basically this command in the tty1 yast2 installation --ncurses

Ah... Interesting. :-)

...

...
It is part of what we SuSE/SUSE/openSUSE users are accustomed to ;-)

The openSUSE Lives that could be installed used a different method. Basically they copied themselves over to the hard disk, no options offered. The last ones were for 13.2, but Tumbleweed also has them, since relatively recently I think.

Cheers.

PS.- "basically" means I'm oversimplifying a lot. Things are always more complex under the hood.

Right :-) It's Ok. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Carlos E. R.

22 Feb 22 Feb

12:22

New subject: [opensuse-factory] On Live media [Was: openSUSE 101 - SUSE != openSUSE]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday, 2018-02-21 at 15:16 +0100, Liam Proven wrote:

...

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 08:57:25 -0500 Anton Aylward wrote:

...
I'll go further than that. There are MANY private individuals who have used the Build System to make custom openSUSE derived LiveDVD images or installation images, that are now publicly available. It's also a case of "You Can Too" if you are willing to put the time into learning the Build System, collecting the packages you want together and so on. If you want to make a very reduced system, say for JUST photo-editing, then it might even fir on a CD or 1G USB depending on how aggressive you are about editing the GUI/DisplayManager side of things. Or again if you just want enough to make an emulation that serves as a Cromebook loader.

OK, I'll bite. :-)

If it is so (relatively) easy...

Is there a particular reason why the openSUSE boot/install medium is *not* a Live medium?

The main one, IMHO, is that the openSUSE install DVD is more reliable and versatile than a live used for installation. It also requires more RAM during installation. As I remember, when we had such lives, it basically installed an image of itself on the computer over which the user had very few choices available at install time. However, a Live "demo" is very useful. It can be given as present to people to just test openSUSE without installing anything on the computer. Similarly, we can test a computer with it before purchasing the computer. It can be used on emergencies, for repairing the computer. It can be used on non emergencies on a computer that has Windows without altering it, so that we do have Linux when the computer doesn't. The last lives made, 13.1, 13.2, when placed on an USB stick, on the first boot created a writeable partition on the remaining of the stick, so that we could write files, even install new rpms. I still keep around the 13.1 Live XFCE aka rescue system because there is no Leap equivalent (which was not installable) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iEYEARECAAYFAlqOthUACgkQtTMYHG2NR9VP+gCeJWwGet9efc1vdH7VqKOC+tG+ GAsAn2xktK3RdHFAd6OPiG6Fggwqm98c =zKYn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen

21 Feb 21 Feb

17:43

Anton Aylward wrote:

...

are Linux, and very often SUSE at that! I see the presentations from IBM and their demos of SUSE running on mainframes that are no larger than my bedside night-stand. I drool!

Way off-topic - you can always run Linux/390 on Hercules. I did that back in 2001/2002, but with todays CPUs it'll be much smoother. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (-0.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

ellanios82

20 Feb 20 Feb

14:51

...

do not want this to descend into a public spat Richard Brown openSUSE Chairman SUSE Linux GmbH

- best focus on Chairing meetings of the Board of Directors ........... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Liam Proven

21 Feb 21 Feb

12:19

For the avoidance of doubt: Richard took this offlist last night, first to IRC, and then to a long phone call, and now I understand things _somewhat_ better -- although not 100% clearly. So I am replying to this because I want to understand this matter better, and if possible, help to draft something that will explain the difference between SUSE and openSUSE. Without pointing to hour-long videos on Youtube. On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 12:26:13 +0100 Richard Brown wrote:

...

You and I are both openSUSE contributors

Am I? Oh! I didn't know that I was. :-)

...

communicating on an openSUSE mailinglist.

Our employers and our choice of email address doesn't matter;

This came as news to me.

...

But for clarification, you should note that I rarely post with my SUSE corporate email here, and my choice of email address has been the @opensuse.org address I've had for a lot longer than my employment with SUSE.

I have not so noted, no. I will try to remember to pay more attention to people's email addresses.

...

Speaking personally, when posting here I feel I am most certainly an openSUSE contributor first, and a SUSE employee second, and choose my mail address accordingly.

I do not judge those who choose differently from me, but given my position in the community though I also think it's important that I live & represent the reality that all openSUSE contributors are equal.

So when I talk about "we" in this list, I am talking about openSUSE. That is the group which this mailinglist exists to address.

OK. I thought that "we" meant "SUSE employees".

...

You are the one who raised examples of SUSE's decisions in a way that implied you felt they should be considered as part of this openSUSE discussion about openSUSE's distributions.

Er, no. I didn't know that there was a difference, so I didn't consider any such differences at all.

...

My replies are a rather direct attempt to make it very clear how that doesn't gel with what we do here in openSUSE (nor does it gel with how SUSE interacts with openSUSE).

OK...

...

I could go through the above and all of your other comments on by one, but I do not want this to descend into a public spat. As a SUSE employee I think you should have a fair chance to educate yourself about how your employer interacts as part of this community

https://rootco.de/2016-04-03-opensuse-and-you/ might be a good starting point

https://speakerdeck.com/sysrich/oggcamp-2017-opensuse-a-reintroduction

I studied those. They help a bit.

...

My talk at FOSDEM goes into those core themes about openSUSE works and how SUSE interacts as part of openSUSE in some more details - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5YKBS-KUe8

Do you think this will help?

Somewhat, yes. But I think a *lot* more is needed... In as few words as possible: I thought that openSUSE was the free-of-charge version of SUSE. And that's it. It isn't. It is *substantially* more complicated and as far as I can tell, neither SUSE nor openSUSE spells this out explicitly. I think that it should. I think that it _needs_ to. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Aleksa Sarai

24 Feb 24 Feb

14:00

On 2018-02-21, Liam Proven wrote:

...

I thought that openSUSE was the free-of-charge version of SUSE. And that's it.

It isn't. It is *substantially* more complicated and as far as I can tell, neither SUSE nor openSUSE spells this out explicitly.

I think that it should. I think that it _needs_ to.

At the moment I believe these threads are still quite off-topic (and I'm wondering whether having these sorts of meta-discussions about education of SUSE employees on the public os-factory mailing list is appropriate), but I just wanted to point this out: The reason I believe this isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere is mostly the history of the project and how much it has evolved. openSUSE started as a Novell project, and the original plan for the project changed significantly over time to reach where we are today (and it is still evolving with the introduction of things like the Factory-First policy and so on). It's not written down because things have been changing so much that if anything had been written down, it would be misleading today -- the project has changed so much since its origins, both in scope and spirit. However, I do think that we should have a living document for folks who are not aware of the dynamics between SUSE and openSUSE (this would be especially important for new SUSE employees to read) to learn what the current dynamic is between the two entities. Because it is very important to make clear that we are all on equal footing as part of the same community, irrespective of who pays your salary. -- Aleksa Sarai Senior Software Engineer (Containers) SUSE Linux GmbH https://www.cyphar.com/

Liam Proven

26 Feb 26 Feb

11:40

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 01:00:21 +1100 Aleksa Sarai wrote:

...

The reason I believe this isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere is mostly the history of the project and how much it has evolved. openSUSE started as a Novell project, and the original plan for the project changed significantly over time to reach where we are today (and it is still evolving with the introduction of things like the Factory-First policy and so on). It's not written down because things have been changing so much that if anything had been written down, it would be misleading today -- the project has changed so much since its origins, both in scope and spirit.

Well, unfortunately, that's the nature of publishing stuff about current products, projects, companies etc. online. You need to update it periodically. Gotta be done.

...

However, I do think that we should have a living document for folks who are not aware of the dynamics between SUSE and openSUSE (this would be especially important for new SUSE employees to read)

Definitely.

...

to learn what the current dynamic is between the two entities. Because it is very important to make clear that we are all on equal footing as part of the same community, irrespective of who pays your salary.

I'm trying to get some discussion going about what should be on it, and I'm getting scolded for wasting bandwidth or being in the wrong place. So what is the _right_ place? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084

Carlos E. R.

12:01

On 2018-02-26 12:40, Liam Proven wrote:

...

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 01:00:21 +1100 Aleksa Sarai wrote:

...
The reason I believe this isn't explicitly spelled out anywhere is mostly the history of the project and how much it has evolved. openSUSE started as a Novell project, and the original plan for the project changed significantly over time to reach where we are today (and it is still evolving with the introduction of things like the Factory-First policy and so on). It's not written down because things have been changing so much that if anything had been written down, it would be misleading today -- the project has changed so much since its origins, both in scope and spirit.

Well, unfortunately, that's the nature of publishing stuff about current products, projects, companies etc. online.

You need to update it periodically.

Gotta be done.

...
However, I do think that we should have a living document for folks who are not aware of the dynamics between SUSE and openSUSE (this would be especially important for new SUSE employees to read)

Definitely.

...
to learn what the current dynamic is between the two entities. Because it is very important to make clear that we are all on equal footing as part of the same community, irrespective of who pays your salary.

I'm trying to get some discussion going about what should be on it, and I'm getting scolded for wasting bandwidth or being in the wrong place.

So what is the _right_ place?

IMHO this is a good place, but don't trust me, I also have been scolded other times ;-) *Maybe* the Project mail list. Low traffic. It is certainly "on topic" there, IMO. By default everything goes to the opensuse@ mail list, but you will find fewer contributors and employees there, so fewer authoritative answers. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Simon Lees

28 Feb 28 Feb

11:29

On Monday, 26 February 2018 22:31:35 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-26 12:40, Liam Proven wrote:

...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 01:00:21 +1100 Aleksa Sarai wrote: ...

IMHO this is a good place, but don't trust me, I also have been scolded other times ;-)

*Maybe* the Project mail list. Low traffic. It is certainly "on topic" there, IMO.

By default everything goes to the opensuse@ mail list, but you will find fewer contributors and employees there, so fewer authoritative answers.

The openSUSE Project mailing list would certainly be a better place for much of this discussion as its more about the project / products / definitions whereas this list is for discussing the active (technical) development of openSUSE operating systems. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Liam Proven

13:59

On Wed, 28 Feb 2018 21:59:12 +1030 Simon Lees wrote:

...

The openSUSE Project mailing list would certainly be a better place for much of this discussion as its more about the project / products / definitions whereas this list is for discussing the active (technical) development of openSUSE operating systems.

OK, noted. Thank you. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

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participants (17)

Aleksa Sarai
Ancor Gonzalez Sosa
Anton Aylward
Bernhard M. Wiedemann
Bruno Friedmann
Carlos E. R.
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
ellanios82
Jan Engelhardt
Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
Liam Proven
Ludwig Nussel
Per Jessen
Richard Brown
Simon Lees
Stasiek
Werner Flamme