On 17 August 2012 08:41, Marcus Meissner wrote:

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 03:36:21AM -0400, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

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On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 3:17 AM, DenverD wrote:

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we have or still do use packman to to install codecs, java, etc etc etc.....why not also use it to remove BIG problems??

Not trying to start an argument or get too off topic, but I thought working (Sun) Java is shipped in the non-oss repo. Or has openSUSE started to ship only the broken Java versions, and requires now a 3rd party source?

Oracle no longers allows us to distribute the binary Oracle/Sun Java, you will need to download it from Oracle directly.

Not meaning Packman provides it. I guess the same restrictions apply there. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/17/2012 10:29 AM, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

On 17 August 2012 08:17, DenverD wrote:

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if we can't take apper out pre-install, how about we make it easy for the new users to remove it by putting a script in packman that auto-runs during the first update after install saying (something like):

[For some strange reason] we must install a software package (named 'apper') which is known to conflict with our package manager and will, in time, kill your system if not uninstalled or disabled. Most openSUSE users remove it, may we now uninstall yours? - yes - no (leave it enabled) - only disable it - more info

we have or still do use packman to to install codecs, java, etc etc etc.....why not also use it to remove BIG problems??

Because Packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide. Packman is not there to start a fight about how things should be done.

i hope this to be my last on the topic (i have no desire to either start or participate in a 'fight') but, for the good of our *new* users: since packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide, why can't it also be used to *help* new openSUSE users remove/disable _either_ apper or YaST software management/update modules that openSUSE does provide? or, maybe just provide and auto-run a warning to the new user about the certainty of a conflict and system damage...and how to avoid it. imnsho, it is a disservice to the users to both provide _and_ not warn. fini dd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-17 12:40, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

On 17 August 2012 11:27, DenverD wrote:

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since packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide, why can't it also be used to *help* new openSUSE users remove/disable _either_ apper or YaST software management/update modules that openSUSE does provide?

Because it is a decision openSUSE took. Again, it's not Packman business to tell openSUSE how things should be done.

This is like a teenager asking his dad if he can go to that party, and when his dad refuses he tries asking his mum. Try as hard as you want to avoid openSUSE providing Apper, but if you can't don't start asking mum.

What about voting to remove apper? >:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 "Asparagus" GM (bombadillo)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAuRoIACgkQU92UU+smfQX/hQCeKXlXohh+QS4rMrHgUMgWVFnq NvAAn0DBH8YmWK3ijTomcOFEvhTu4jID =0Vxv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-17 15:29, Carl Fletcher wrote:

On 17/08/12 14:26, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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What about voting to remove apper? >:-) I already removed it :D

I usually leave it because I like the automatic reminder that there is an update, then do it with YOU. But I remove it at the first nuisance - and in my factory test partition I removed it. Actually, I renamed the binary. The problem is that YaST asks apper to quit, but it doesn't. After three attempts killing apper or packagekit and it resuscitating, I renamed the binary. No more problems. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 "Asparagus" GM (bombadillo)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAuSIkACgkQU92UU+smfQV+mgCeKtS4m0Dqs9TVkv/8R5H5msl9 zloAn0ecwlfn/0FSnMFHt25kxHY+iDRE =NmLk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Fredag den 17. august 2012 15:26:26 Carlos E. R. skrev:

On 2012-08-17 12:40, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

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On 17 August 2012 11:27, DenverD wrote:

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since packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide, why can't it also be used to *help* new openSUSE users remove/disable _either_ apper or YaST software management/update modules that openSUSE does provide?

Because it is a decision openSUSE took. Again, it's not Packman business to tell openSUSE how things should be done.

This is like a teenager asking his dad if he can go to that party, and when his dad refuses he tries asking his mum. Try as hard as you want to avoid openSUSE providing Apper, but if you can't don't start asking mum.

What about voting to remove apper? >:-)

Removing Apper means having no updater applet, no notification about available updates. There's no alternative to Apper for this. People who don't want the stuff can just do 'zypper rm PackageKit' and be happy. But another thing is letting Apper handle local RPM files by default. That's a really bad idea since we have an alternative which is actually reliable and smooth - YaST. Clicking a local RPM should install it with YaST. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Fredag den 17. august 2012 15:44:51 Carlos E. R. skrev:

On 2012-08-17 15:35, Martin Schlander wrote:

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People who don't want the stuff can just do 'zypper rm PackageKit' and be happy.

No, because apper refuses to die and I could not remove it. I had to first rename the binary, then kill it.

Well, they may additionally need to reboot or manually kill packagekitd before they can be fully happy. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-08-17 12:40, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

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On 17 August 2012 11:27, DenverD wrote:

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since packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide, why can't it also be used to *help* new openSUSE users remove/disable _either_ apper or YaST software management/update modules that openSUSE does provide?

...

Because it is a decision openSUSE took. Again, it's not Packman business to tell openSUSE how things should be done.

...

This is like a teenager asking his dad if he can go to that party, and when his dad refuses he tries asking his mum. Try as hard as you want to avoid openSUSE providing Apper, but if you can't don't start asking mum.

What about voting to remove apper? >:-)

I'd vote to remove it. One of the first things I do after a new or updated installation is remove apper with YaST. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 22:57:30 +0530, Manu Gupta wrote:

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Russ Fineman wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-08-17 12:40, Cristian Morales Vega wrote:

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On 17 August 2012 11:27, DenverD wrote:

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since packman is there to *help* openSUSE with things openSUSE can't provide, why can't it also be used to *help* new openSUSE users remove/disable _either_ apper or YaST software management/update modules that openSUSE does provide?

...

Because it is a decision openSUSE took. Again, it's not Packman business to tell openSUSE how things should be done.

...

This is like a teenager asking his dad if he can go to that party, and when his dad refuses he tries asking his mum. Try as hard as you want to avoid openSUSE providing Apper, but if you can't don't start asking mum.

What about voting to remove apper? >:-)

I'd vote to remove it. One of the first things I do after a new or updated installation is remove apper with YaST.

I had vote to remove it too, its a major annoyance and removing it is one of the first things I do after a clean installation myself.

at about this time, i'd expect some of the hired staff to go ballistic. that's what happened when i suggested removing apper to someone on the mailing list who had problems, a while ago. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18/08/12 06:42, Will Stephenson wrote:

It's buggy but throwing it out without fixing the bugs gives no way for a regular user to install updates without becoming root, as Martin points out. It's been going on so long though Will. All the folk I maintain system for, I remove it. And leave instructions for updating with software manager or zypper. And I lost count of the people in the forum who managed to screw their system with using it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carl Fletcher wrote:

On 18/08/12 06:42, Will Stephenson wrote:

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It's buggy but throwing it out without fixing the bugs gives no way for a regular user to install updates without becoming root, as Martin points out. It's been going on so long though Will. All the folk I maintain system for, I remove it. And leave instructions for updating with software manager or zypper. And I lost count of the people in the forum who managed to screw their system with using it. I could go along with fixing it if it can be done. I know this problem has existed with 12.1, 12.2 and I think even with it predecessor in 11.4.

I am no programmer but I could possible test any fix on my test system. It is a 32-bit version, not 64-bit like my main system. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 18 August 2012 08:19, Vincent Untz wrote:

For the record, PackageKit running and refusing to quit usually happens when it's busy downloading something -- I would guess it does the equivalent of "zypper ref".

No, the problem is apper/packagekit can really get stuck in some operation for far too long. When using the "Updates" part of kcm_apper in 12.2 I saw it in "refreshing the metadata" (downloading, and I guess parsing) for a few seconds and then in "Finished"/"100%" for minutes. There is not a lot of discussion about it being broken. I asked for a report of the situation in opensuse-softwaremgmt, so people interested knows where to start to help. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le samedi 18 août 2012, à 12:00 +0200, Stefan Seyfried a écrit :

Am 18.08.2012 09:19, schrieb Vincent Untz:

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For the record, PackageKit running and refusing to quit usually happens when it's busy downloading something -- I would guess it does the equivalent of "zypper ref".

Can't packagekit tell what it is busy with right now? I think the biggest problem is that there is no feedback from packagekit at all for almost everything it does AFAICT. And a "zypper ref" can easily take very very long if e.g. the debuginfo repo is enabled and the internet connection is "slow" (less than, say, 10 Mbits/second).

There is a GetDaemonState dbus method, so it could possibly be done. gdbus call --system --dest org.freedesktop.PackageKit --object-path /org/freedesktop/PackageKit --method org.freedesktop.PackageKit.GetDaemonState Exemple of output: ('State:\n0\tget-distro-upgrades\t/47_cbbcbbed_data\tstate[finished] background[0]\n1\tget-updates\t/48_ccdaaddb_data\tstate[running] background[0]\n',) Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 13:42:08 +0800 Will Stephenson wrote:

... It's buggy but throwing it out without fixing the bugs gives no way for a regular user to install updates without becoming root, as Martin points out. We need to fix the bugs as a community, whether they are in Apper, PackageKit, the zypp backend or libzypp itself, instead of just tossing out the most visible part of the broken stack and reverting to the level of functionality SUSE had in 2001.

Maybe I just missed the benefits of the added update functionality after 2001, but I have also observed problems with apper and PackageKit. I *think* (not absolutely sure) I have also seen some update demon hogging the CPU under LXDE, I suspect but did not really track it that it was related to either ignoring the proxy settings in /etc/sysconfig/proxy when a proxy is needed to access the update server, or the settings not yet configured after installation. Therefore I always remove apper and *PackageKit*. I use "you" for updating and it works fine. For machines used by normal users I use yast automatic_online_update and it also works fine. So far only kernel and flashplayer need to be updated manually AFAIR. For flashplayer I think it is strange, because AOU_AUTO_AGREE_WITH_LICENSES="true" is set in /etc/sysconfig/automatic_online_update. Regards, Dieter -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-18 07:42, Will Stephenson wrote:

I've been silently going ballistic :). It's buggy but throwing it out without fixing the bugs gives no way for a regular user to install updates without becoming root, as Martin points out. We need to fix the bugs as a community, whether they are in Apper, PackageKit, the zypp backend or libzypp itself, instead of just tossing out the most visible part of the broken stack and reverting to the level of functionality SUSE had in 2001.

Then I suggest that the people that understand apper and its friends get busy everytime some one complains about a problem of which it is the culprit, and before the “habituals” tell the newcomer to get rid of it, intervene and suggest a solution to him(her). And this means that you people have to get busy in the mail list and the forums - specially the forums, because that is the place where it happens most. And no, sorry, don't ask me, because I do not understand apper and friends. :-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAvezgACgkQIvFNjefEBxqPogCfUzAV1SG3tpIDZg+90U5iVBaf 1qsAn0dASoNI71DriLIavpFeficSm4l/ =BlWn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19 August 2012 00:19, Rajko wrote:

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 13:42:08 +0800 Will Stephenson wrote:

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On Friday 17 Aug 2012 23:08:47 phani wrote:

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It's buggy but throwing it out without fixing the bugs ...

If you don't mind to sketch a plan how to fix bugs.

For instance: What components are involved? (This will help to find sources wich some kind soul with knowledge, and without enough time to dive in labyrinth of openSUSE, can fix.)

PackageKit Client -> Packagekit -> PackageKit's zypp backend -> libzypp

In what repos they live? (To locate actually used sources and point kind souls to right places, not only at build service.)

apper -> KDE:Distro:Factory PackageKit and zypp backend-> GNOME:Factory libzypp -> zypp:Head

Who are maintainers? (To address right people - some may be compelled to fix their stuff when there is no shadow hiding those that attribute to openSUSE problems)

The right people is in opensuse-softwaremgmt and zypp-devel mailing lists. All of this is not a big secret and it would take anybody with interest five minutes to look for. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org