On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 10:50:33AM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

...

- move ifconfig, route, arp, nameif, ipmaddr, iptunnel into a separate package, e.g. net-tools-obsolete, which wouldn't be part of a default installation

What has replaced arp?

ip neigh Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 27.01.2014 11:39, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

Would be great. Also if someone take the time to offer a kind of cheat sheet obsolete command -> new way (at least for those who don't know)

And make noise about it.

Actually I would go one step further and install scripts instead of the old commands explaining the new usage - not calling the new commands, but explaining them. And I wouldn't be surprised if other distributions already have them ;)

Greetings, Stephan

E.g. make use of 'command-not-found' / 'cnf' in bash to give a useful output. Apropos scripts, 'ifconfig' without parameters was a nice and fast way to see all the interfaces and their config in a reliable and human readable way. It will be the command I'll miss the most. Other wise: +1 for separation into a extra, non-default-install, package. But please keep in in the main distro repo for at least the coming release (SLE / OSS). - Yamaban -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2014-01-27 12:14 (GMT+0100) Yamaban composed:

'ifconfig' without parameters was a nice and fast way to see all the interfaces and their config in a reliable and human readable way. It will be the command I'll miss the most.

Same here. Is there any modern equivalent? -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Felix Miata wrote:

On 2014-01-27 12:14 (GMT+0100) Yamaban composed:

...

'ifconfig' without parameters was a nice and fast way to see all the interfaces and their config in a reliable and human readable way. It will be the command I'll miss the most.

Same here. Is there any modern equivalent?

ip addr -- Per Jessen, Zürich (4.5°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - dedicated server rental in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 13:05, Per Jessen wrote:

Yamaban wrote:

...

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 11:42, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On 27.01.2014 11:39, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

...

Would be great. Also if someone take the time to offer a kind of cheat sheet obsolete command -> new way (at least for those who don't know)

And make noise about it.

Actually I would go one step further and install scripts instead of the old commands explaining the new usage - not calling the new commands, but explaining them. And I wouldn't be surprised if other distributions already have them ;)

Greetings, Stephan

E.g. make use of 'command-not-found' / 'cnf' in bash to give a useful output.

Apropos scripts, 'ifconfig' without parameters was a nice and fast way to see all the interfaces and their config in a reliable and human readable way. It will be the command I'll miss the most.

For most purposes, "ip addr" does the same, I'm only missing the packet and error counters.

Those stats can be queried with: "ip -s link show", still, it was nice to have a tool that answered most of the relevant questions about networking on a machine in one call in a readable at a glance way. The output from "ip" can be better machine - parsed, but for humans? Sorry, no gold, not even bronze for "ip", "ifconfig" was / is much more readable. - Yamaban -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 27 of January 2014 13:41:19 Per Jessen wrote:

Yamaban wrote:

...

Those stats can be queried with: "ip -s link show",

Thanks, that saved me some googling :-)

You can also use the -s option twice to get more detailed stats.

...

The output from "ip" can be better machine - parsed, but for humans? Sorry, no gold, not even bronze for "ip", "ifconfig" was / is much more readable.

I guess it's matter of getting used to it, I switched to "ip addr" long ago.

Agreed. For me, it's already much easier to see the information in output of "ip addr show" or "ip route show" than ifconfig or route. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2014-01-27 13:59, James Knott wrote:

Michal Kubecek wrote:

...

Agreed. For me, it's already much easier to see the information in output of "ip addr show" or "ip route show" than ifconfig or route.

Don't forget, if you're running IPv6, you have to use ip -6 for some commands.

ip route show table all No -6 needed ;^) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

my favorite alias ip6='ip -6' :-)

Of course, to be consistent, you should also have one for ip4. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bruno Friedmann wrote:

ip alias ip would be redondant :]]

No, you use ip6 when you want IPv6 and ip4 with IPv4. ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 2014-01-28 00:32, Hans Witvliet wrote:

On Mon, 2014-01-27 at 07:59 -0500, James Knott wrote:

...

Don't forget, if you're running IPv6, you have to use ip -6 for some commands.

Never mind an option to distinguish between ip-legacy and ipv6.

I am still hoping that the "gods upstream" do something about ping/ping6 and iptables/ip6tables

Might happen, but don't count on it too soon. The iputils package (in which ping6 is in) has the same old smell as net-tools: /usr/bin/ipg - anybody ever used this reasonably? /usr/bin/ping /usr/bin/ping6 /usr/sbin/arping - IMO superseded by T.H.'s arping2 which has more functionality /usr/sbin/clockdiff /usr/sbin/ifenslave - replaced by bonding's sysfs interface /usr/sbin/in.rdisc - Solaris compatibility thing /usr/sbin/tracepath - we have traceroute, mtr, ... /usr/sbin/tracepath6 Speaking of traceroute, not too golden either: also has traceroute and traceroute6. So, that leaves: mtr. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 14:02, James Knott wrote:

Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

/usr/bin/ipg - anybody ever used this reasonably? /usr/bin/ping /usr/bin/ping6 /usr/sbin/arping - IMO superseded by T.H.'s arping2 which has more functionality /usr/sbin/clockdiff /usr/sbin/ifenslave - replaced by bonding's sysfs interface /usr/sbin/in.rdisc - Solaris compatibility thing /usr/sbin/tracepath - we have traceroute, mtr, ... /usr/sbin/tracepath6

Don't cut essential tools without providing a superior replacement. Things like traceroute and ping are essential for troubleshooting network problems.

The Talk here is NOT about a full drop, but about a split out of default (no specail select) install, while still available on the install media and main-distro-repo. Just reducing the installed clutter and crud. For that we have to make sure that: A: no script / program uses these tools internal without declaring them B: make noise about the replacements. The replacement for ifconfig was already debated in this thread. If some one misses a functionality, please give a example what exact is missing. (e.g. tell about program and output / function that would be missing) To repeat: this is about default install, not a drop from repo. - Yamaban -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 28/01/14 10:02, James Knott escribió:

...

Don't cut essential tools without providing a superior replacement. Things like traceroute and ping are essential for troubleshooting network problems.

"traceroute" is provided nowadays by a separate package, not net-tools. properly named "traceroute" [doh] it is what the rest of the world also uses.

"ping" could be reimplemented to use the kernel's "ping" sockets (socket(PF_INET, SOCK_DGRAM, IPPROTO_ICMP) ...) instead of the old setuid/capability ways.. unfortunately the kernel has a barking mad restriction in this socket type which means that by default, not even root can use it. (go figure...)

Interesting feature. I'd love to get rid of the special privilege ping. The permissions check via group and sysctl setting is kind of silly though. http://openwall.info/wiki/people/segoon/ping http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=c3... cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2014-01-27 11:39, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

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I've got one daring proposition. As you probably know, the ifconfig utility is obsolete since kernel 2.2

Would be great. Also if someone take the time to offer a kind of cheat sheet obsolete command -> new way (at least for those who don't know)

The hopes are real low. I proposed something like it as early as https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492665 but people were against it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2014-01-27 14:22, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

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I proposed something like it as early as https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=492665 but people were against it.

Yes, I remember - and I'm not objecting anymore, times have changed.

So what really changed? Why now? Is it because Fedora threw out net-tools too? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 29.01.2014 09:19, schrieb Michal Kubecek:

On Wednesday 29 of January 2014 08:37:47 Ludwig Nussel wrote:

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Note that meanwhile it looks like there is development on net-tools again. There is even a git repo: http://sourceforge.net/p/net-tools/code/ci/master/tree/

Did anyone check whether they already fixed some of the concerns or plan to?

No, but AFAIR, most of our patches are upstream. At least the Author told me that. But because we don't really have a maintainer [just on paper] for net-tools, it is as it is... Nobody has time to care about, see e.g.: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=821077

It would be definitely possible to address some of them but some are intrinsic and cannot be fixed without breaking backward compatibility which would be IMHO even worse than throwing out the utilities.

Yes, that's the problem with it. It truncates interface names, requires labels "ifname:X" for each address, what limits the length again, fakes interface names, which basically do not exists in the system [foo0:42; there is only foo0 as valid interface] and [without label] supports only one address per family on an initerface. Finally, this causes bug reports and even feature requests about. See e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=639276 Other ifconfig implementations do not have these limits [AFAIR *BSD] and adopted the output, which is AFAIK not standarized. Every program, which is parsing the ifconfig output is assuming some specific implementation [we have to maintain patches for it] and is IMO broken per definition (-> use getifaddrs(3) or ip addr & co). So from my point of view we can remove it from default install; every bug report about it, is a step forward to fix/cleanup attic things... Basically, we close bug reports about ifconfig truncation as INVALID since ages, because it is considered obsolete. Gruesse / Regards, Marius Tomaschewski , -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg), GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 30.01.2014 16:59, schrieb Jan Engelhardt:

On Wednesday 2014-01-29 16:04, Marius Tomaschewski wrote:

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Nobody has time to care about, see e.g.: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=821077 [...] Finally, this causes bug reports and even feature requests about. See e.g. https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=639276

Access denied on the latter. Booo!

Sorry, I overlooked that it is not open for everybody. It is a L3 request on SLES complaining that vlan interface names are truncated when using "ifconfig" ...

net-tools is just dead meat for Linux; trying to fix it is a lost cause, because the kernel API is set into stone.

yes. Gruesse / Regards, Marius Tomaschewski , -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg), GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org