On 08/04/2015 04:14 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

I can understand you desire to praise the TW team, but the listed issues are not smth I made up for the fun of it.

Reporting my experience, just like you did. Your reply shows a fundamental misunderstanding of my motivation. There is no benefit in disparaging what I wrote. Carl

Eg the UEFI issue is currently tracked in bugzilla, however without any visible progress.

Best regards

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:00 schrieb Carl:

...

On 2015-08-04 14:31, gargamel704 wrote:

...

Hi all,

I noticed a significant drop in Tumbleweed lately, such as

* unstable system (newly installed) * frequent (compared to the state some months ago) dependency issues in packages * broken UEFI support in the latest snapshots which together with the first bullet point effectively locks me on an outdated version.

Has this something to do with the holiday season? Currently Tumbleweed has for me at least crossed the line (of being enough stable to be used for serious work).

I'd hate to either switch back to old 13.2 or Debian Testing but I really think quality needs to improve.

Cheers

Tumbleweed is working great here. I have experienced none of the issues listed.

Curious about what's happening with LibreOffice 5, and anticipating an update soon. However, the Tumbleweed update has been so reliable that I've given up hoping that "today's the day"; it'll happen when it does, when QA says "ship it".

Thanks to whoever and whatever is making things work so well.

Carl

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* gargamel704 [08-04-15 20:06]:

I didn't mean to "disparage" what you wrote. In any case: I really do think that open source contribution deserves praise, no matter what.

I just think openSUSE is one of the most important distros around and its rolling release lacks stability lately. That it works for you is great, but stability is not defined by the cases that work.

No offense.

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:48 schrieb Carl Symons:

...

On 08/04/2015 04:14 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

...

I can understand you desire to praise the TW team, but the listed issues are not smth I made up for the fun of it.

Reporting my experience, just like you did. Your reply shows a fundamental misunderstanding of my motivation. There is no benefit in disparaging what I wrote.

Carl

...

Eg the UEFI issue is currently tracked in bugzilla, however without any visible progress.

Best regards

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:00 schrieb Carl:

...

On 2015-08-04 14:31, gargamel704 wrote:

...

Hi all,

I noticed a significant drop in Tumbleweed lately, such as

* unstable system (newly installed) * frequent (compared to the state some months ago) dependency issues in packages * broken UEFI support in the latest snapshots which together with the first bullet point effectively locks me on an outdated version.

Has this something to do with the holiday season? Currently Tumbleweed has for me at least crossed the line (of being enough stable to be used for serious work).

I'd hate to either switch back to old 13.2 or Debian Testing but I really think quality needs to improve.

Cheers

Tumbleweed is working great here. I have experienced none of the issues listed.

Curious about what's happening with LibreOffice 5, and anticipating an update soon. However, the Tumbleweed update has been so reliable that I've given up hoping that "today's the day"; it'll happen when it does, when QA says "ship it".

Thanks to whoever and whatever is making things work so well.

Carl

But stability is also not *only* defined very few announced cases where it does not work, Tit-for-Tat! Stability *is* defined by working *and* non-working cases. What else would you use to measure it? I have used Tw for several years now w/o major problems. All software has problems, but openSUSE has few. You must also remember that those encountering problems, perceived or real make much more noise that those who do not. This is beginning to resemble troll-talk! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

opensuse has been serious decline for some time. I'd say it's now full blown amateur hour, except rank amateurs do better work Some silent update occurred for me today removing network manager (which I never liked) replaced by wicked without migrating the existing configuration. We won't even discuss what the plasma upgrade did to my kde setup On 08/04/2015 05:39 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

I have no idea why you try to lecture me. I never claimed that! Pls spare me such stupid discussions/lectures. Thx.

I also cannot see why you classify my report as troll-speak. It is my experience. I only started this whole discussion because I have seen a decline of stability to the point where I cannot safely upgrade anymore (I tried it!).

I just wanted to know if this is a result of some things that have maybe not been resolved during the significant transitions (plasma 5 and gcc 5.1) that TW underwent in the last couple of months.

To emphasize again: I don't need any lectures here. This is an honest request. I am genuinely interested in the deeper reasons (if there are any) for the perceived stability drop.

If no reasons can be found, then that's also fine with me. Then the problem is that my system apparently cannot work with TW anymore and I'll be forced to switch, which would be unfortunate but then it can't be helped. ;)

Am 05.08.2015 um 02:12 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

...

* gargamel704 [08-04-15 20:06]:

...

I didn't mean to "disparage" what you wrote. In any case: I really do think that open source contribution deserves praise, no matter what.

I just think openSUSE is one of the most important distros around and its rolling release lacks stability lately. That it works for you is great, but stability is not defined by the cases that work.

No offense.

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:48 schrieb Carl Symons:

...

On 08/04/2015 04:14 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

...

I can understand you desire to praise the TW team, but the listed issues are not smth I made up for the fun of it. Reporting my experience, just like you did. Your reply shows a fundamental misunderstanding of my motivation. There is no benefit in disparaging what I wrote.

Carl

...

Eg the UEFI issue is currently tracked in bugzilla, however without any visible progress.

Best regards

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:00 schrieb Carl:

...

On 2015-08-04 14:31, gargamel704 wrote: > Hi all, > > I noticed a significant drop in Tumbleweed lately, such as > > * unstable system (newly installed) > * frequent (compared to the state some months ago) dependency > issues in > packages > * broken UEFI support in the latest snapshots which together with the > first bullet point effectively locks me on an outdated version. > > Has this something to do with the holiday season? Currently Tumbleweed > has for me at least crossed the line (of being enough stable to be > used > for serious work). > > I'd hate to either switch back to old 13.2 or Debian Testing but I > really think quality needs to improve. > > Cheers Tumbleweed is working great here. I have experienced none of the issues listed.

Curious about what's happening with LibreOffice 5, and anticipating an update soon. However, the Tumbleweed update has been so reliable that I've given up hoping that "today's the day"; it'll happen when it does, when QA says "ship it".

Thanks to whoever and whatever is making things work so well.

Carl But stability is also not *only* defined very few announced cases where it does not work, Tit-for-Tat!

Stability *is* defined by working *and* non-working cases. What else would you use to measure it?

I have used Tw for several years now w/o major problems. All software has problems, but openSUSE has few. You must also remember that those encountering problems, perceived or real make much more noise that those who do not.

This is beginning to resemble troll-talk!

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/04/2015 08:53 PM, Mike Galbraith wrote:

On Tue, 2015-08-04 at 19:44 -0700, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

...

opensuse has been serious decline for some time. I'd say it's now full blown amateur hour, except rank amateurs do better work That was plain rude. Constructive criticism is healthy, derision is not. If you feel that strongly, pick another distro.

...

We won't even discuss what the plasma upgrade did to my kde setup That was a complete disaster here as well.

-Mike

rude.... Perhaps. Every bit as rude as the responses to feedback about things like this update, and those who have complaints have been getting that for at least 3 years. And yes, I AM in the process of selecting a replacement... And having tried SLES/D it won't be that either. My servers are already no longer running suse based anything. My customers are migrating away from suse based products. I strongly suggest to those who ask to run from suse and it's derivatives. Suse was a solid distro at one time. I wish I knew what to do to fix it. All I can do is vote with me feet -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Amen to plasma update...yikes. Although not really a Tumbleweed packaging issue so much as kde can't seem to resist breaking the same things it broke in the initial 4.x releases all over again. It it doesn't work don't push it, but oh well. I also seem to lose certain kde settings after updates. I haven't been able to produce a pattern, but I just noticed my compositor lost opengl setting on was on xrender (I looked after noticing tearing and the lack of wobbly windows ;)). Also have a crash every time I logout (kde error handler pops up) just recently, figured I'd wait for an update to see what happens. Overall thought, I haven't seen system breaking issues, but I can understand the concern. -- Jimmy On Tue, Aug 4, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

opensuse has been serious decline for some time. I'd say it's now full blown amateur hour, except rank amateurs do better work

Some silent update occurred for me today removing network manager (which I never liked) replaced by wicked without migrating the existing configuration.

We won't even discuss what the plasma upgrade did to my kde setup

On 08/04/2015 05:39 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

...

I have no idea why you try to lecture me. I never claimed that! Pls spare me such stupid discussions/lectures. Thx.

I also cannot see why you classify my report as troll-speak. It is my experience. I only started this whole discussion because I have seen a decline of stability to the point where I cannot safely upgrade anymore (I tried it!).

I just wanted to know if this is a result of some things that have maybe not been resolved during the significant transitions (plasma 5 and gcc 5.1) that TW underwent in the last couple of months.

To emphasize again: I don't need any lectures here. This is an honest request. I am genuinely interested in the deeper reasons (if there are any) for the perceived stability drop.

If no reasons can be found, then that's also fine with me. Then the problem is that my system apparently cannot work with TW anymore and I'll be forced to switch, which would be unfortunate but then it can't be helped. ;)

Am 05.08.2015 um 02:12 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:

...

* gargamel704 [08-04-15 20:06]:

...

I didn't mean to "disparage" what you wrote. In any case: I really do think that open source contribution deserves praise, no matter what.

I just think openSUSE is one of the most important distros around and its rolling release lacks stability lately. That it works for you is great, but stability is not defined by the cases that work.

No offense.

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:48 schrieb Carl Symons:

...

On 08/04/2015 04:14 PM, gargamel704 wrote:

...

I can understand you desire to praise the TW team, but the listed issues are not smth I made up for the fun of it. Reporting my experience, just like you did. Your reply shows a fundamental misunderstanding of my motivation. There is no benefit in disparaging what I wrote.

Carl

...

Eg the UEFI issue is currently tracked in bugzilla, however without any visible progress.

Best regards

Am 05.08.2015 um 01:00 schrieb Carl: > On 2015-08-04 14:31, gargamel704 wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I noticed a significant drop in Tumbleweed lately, such as >> >> * unstable system (newly installed) >> * frequent (compared to the state some months ago) dependency >> issues in >> packages >> * broken UEFI support in the latest snapshots which together with the >> first bullet point effectively locks me on an outdated version. >> >> Has this something to do with the holiday season? Currently Tumbleweed >> has for me at least crossed the line (of being enough stable to be >> used >> for serious work). >> >> I'd hate to either switch back to old 13.2 or Debian Testing but I >> really think quality needs to improve. >> >> Cheers > Tumbleweed is working great here. I have experienced none of the > issues listed. > > Curious about what's happening with LibreOffice 5, and anticipating an > update soon. However, the Tumbleweed update has been so reliable that > I've given up hoping that "today's the day"; it'll happen when it > does, when QA says "ship it". > > Thanks to whoever and whatever is making things work so well. > > Carl But stability is also not *only* defined very few announced cases where it does not work, Tit-for-Tat!

Stability *is* defined by working *and* non-working cases. What else would you use to measure it?

I have used Tw for several years now w/o major problems. All software has problems, but openSUSE has few. You must also remember that those encountering problems, perceived or real make much more noise that those who do not.

This is beginning to resemble troll-talk!

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-06 07:37, Luca Beltrame wrote:

I wish people would at least READ what was posted on the mailing list at the time of the move.

There are many tumbleweed users that do not read mail lists. A fair number reads the forum instead. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXDWf8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1y2JgEAhp/Np9GpZthfP4+EqMYCfGfQ LdBsdOR6ArYVSM/o4J0A/0dC+MCEKBlG5fajFIwN3AIDEHrlhDb9PX1TIOz0G9jk =AQpT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/06/2015 03:05 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/critical-intel-graphics-driver-bug-puts-kde-p...

And there are also problems with nouveau https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1238988

This might explain some peoples perceptions of stability problems with Plasma 5 lately

Just sum up users using intel and nouveau drivers, that's probably most people using Plasma 5 in TW (or at least half of them). And then add the recent Nfs breakage, the GCC5gate, etc. For me, all that is expected in Tumbleweed. There is a reasonable explanation for each problem. But we cannot say that the instability feeling is just made up by some people out of nothing. That's why, in my opinion, we are going a little bit too far in advertising Tumbleweed as "fully tested", making it sound like something ready for the average Joe for use in production systems. If you are using TW, you will get the latest and brightest but you are expected to find some troubles and you are expected to collaborate in tracking them down (with bug reports, at least). Which is a fair trade, as long as expectations are clear for everybody. Reusing the Tumbleweed name probably didn't help in setting those expectations correctly, either.

And also why I (as a GNOME user) have not experienced any problems..

Yes. For many KDE users, TW has not being a nice place to be for the last month or so. Not a fault of the KDE team (they cannot do anything to prevent conflicts with drivers coming from upstream), but still a reality. Cheers

On 6 August 2015 at 14:58, Carlos E. R. wrote: On 2015-08-06 07:37, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

...

...

I wish people would at least READ what was posted on the mailing list at the time of the move.

There are many tumbleweed users that do not read mail lists. A fair number reads the forum instead.

...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Jimmy Berry [08-06-15 18:18]:

...

I wish people would at least READ what was posted on the mailing list at the time of the move. Why did the KDE team wait 3 full releases of Plasma 5 before even considering it to be a replacement (and yes, we ran it on our desktops to see, and we broke our own stuff occasionally).

I tried to stay on kde 4, but my applications started switching to kde 5 frameworks one by one and some would no longer inter-operate. Thus one was forced to switch or jump back to 13.2. Many of the same bugs that plagued early 4.x are back in 5.x. These are not differences in feature set as someone tried to argue...these are bugs and there are many reports to kde.

Basic stuff like remembering open applications (works on less than half of applications and some are random which boot they will work on). Window size or position is hit or miss on boot and which applications. Those just kill a lot of the polish. Login takes 20 - 60 seconds on various machines with multiple monitors (< 2 sec on 4.x). Other things like items that haven't been ported I can understand. etc etc. I get lack of feature complete, but this stuff is just...meh. Add to that the delay in rolling out qt5.5 which fixes some of these things.

We can talk all day, but I don't get the attitude by many that just wants to throw all this under the rug. Especially to suggest one needs to read the mailing list (which I do now) just to use a distro. Are you kidding me? I don't read mailing list for every application I use just to be safe on latest releases. That the whole point of releases instead of running latest commit.

-- Jimmy

On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 9:42 AM, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa wrote:

...

On 08/06/2015 03:05 PM, Richard Brown wrote:

...

http://news.softpedia.com/news/critical-intel-graphics-driver-bug-puts-kde-p...

And there are also problems with nouveau https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1238988

...

This might explain some peoples perceptions of stability problems with Plasma 5 lately

Just sum up users using intel and nouveau drivers, that's probably most people using Plasma 5 in TW (or at least half of them). And then add the recent Nfs breakage, the GCC5gate, etc.

For me, all that is expected in Tumbleweed. There is a reasonable explanation for each problem. But we cannot say that the instability feeling is just made up by some people out of nothing.

That's why, in my opinion, we are going a little bit too far in advertising Tumbleweed as "fully tested", making it sound like something ready for the average Joe for use in production systems.

If you are using TW, you will get the latest and brightest but you are expected to find some troubles and you are expected to collaborate in tracking them down (with bug reports, at least). Which is a fair trade, as long as expectations are clear for everybody. Reusing the Tumbleweed name probably didn't help in setting those expectations correctly, either.

...

And also why I (as a GNOME user) have not experienced any problems..

Yes. For many KDE users, TW has not being a nice place to be for the last month or so. Not a fault of the KDE team (they cannot do anything to prevent conflicts with drivers coming from upstream), but still a reality.

Cheers

...

On 6 August 2015 at 14:58, Carlos E. R. wrote: On 2015-08-06 07:37, Luca Beltrame wrote:

...

...

...

I wish people would at least READ what was posted on the mailing list at the time of the move.

There are many tumbleweed users that do not read mail lists. A fair number reads the forum instead.

...

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- Ancor González Sosa YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

And your conversation, or time wasted typing here accomplishes nothing w/o bug reports except griping. Why do you use openSUSE? You don't even bother to observe the posting conventions expected here. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il Thu, 06 Aug 2015 14:58:39 +0200, Carlos E. R. ha scritto:

There are many tumbleweed users that do not read mail lists. A fair number reads the forum instead.

For the sake of clarity, I was referring to the posters on this ML. -- Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team KDE Science supporter GPG key ID: A29D259B -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 05:42 +0200, Mike Galbraith wrote:

Over the years, I've see a few updates release -> release+1 go south and require a rebuild, but when you're doing a major overhaul, you take precautions and budget time for it. TW turned the breakage risk into a frequent event, and after being happy as a clam with TW for quite a while, complete destruction happened at a bad time, so out the window TW flew. For me, TW proved itself to be too unstable for daily bread use, and not on one box, on four of them. I still use it on my test boxen, but never again will it meet my primary workstation.

And of course you filed bugs, submitted fixes and new openQA test scripts to make sure the breakage doesn't happen anymore? Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment? I myself have been using TW on all my machines without issues - but granted, I also submit openQA tests when I see stuff breaking, making sure we see the breakage in the future before it happens. And, no plasma 5 does not count as breakage: the new version simply has a new feature set. The old version is no longer maintained. And I think the KDE Team did an awesome job in communicating the change well ahead of time... and they also did not jump the KDE-4 ship prematurely. I understand a broken system is something bad and I can only assure you that, together with openQA, we try to do the best possible to avoid any such thing... but, it REALLY takes the time and efforts of everybody, to at least report failures in a proper bug. Cheers, and who knows, maybe you'll switch back to TW - once we can assure the things that broke for you are being tested upfront :) -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 12:07 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2015-08-05 11:59, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment?

TW must have looked differently to people when Greg ran the process. I somehow share that feeling, given the Greg-TW seemed hand-picked, and included reverts. The current TW on the other hand seems just like Factory with a bit of OpenQA thrown in, and you won't see any reverts in the automated Nussel mails.

Then you did not follow all the 'Nussel mails' close enough... I assure you: there have been reverts (most of the time though before a snapshot goes out, as most such reverts are spotted to be needed during the openQA phase... but reverts DO happen) -- Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger

On 05.08.2015 12:39, Takashi Iwai wrote:

I wonder whether we may have a proper way to revert the package installation locally for TW. We get usually multiple package updates in a shot. And if a breakage happens, usually this is only about a single or a part of the updated packages. An easy fix is to revert the affected package. But how? The previous packages are gone on TW.

The best would be to keep the old packages in our repo. Would it become too much in the end as we can't afford?

The old rpms are on the server for 3 days, but not in the meta data. We can keep them longer if needed, but not for much. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 05.08.2015 12:56, Takashi Iwai wrote:

On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 12:43:25 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

...

On 05.08.2015 12:39, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

I wonder whether we may have a proper way to revert the package installation locally for TW. We get usually multiple package updates in a shot. And if a breakage happens, usually this is only about a single or a part of the updated packages. An easy fix is to revert the affected package. But how? The previous packages are gone on TW.

The best would be to keep the old packages in our repo. Would it become too much in the end as we can't afford?

The old rpms are on the server for 3 days, but not in the meta data. We can keep them longer if needed, but not for much.

Oh it's good to know. This should be more advertised!

IMO 3 days is too short. Alternatively, can it be controlled by not the time period but versions, i.e. keeping old packages up to one or two revisions back? It'll end up with double size or so, but certainly limited.

Doubled size *is* a problem - and I'm not even sure in what scenarios a revert of a single package can help. The 3 days are mainly to make sure the meta data is in sync with mirrors well enough in case your update takes longer - and 3 days is actually quite a lot for that. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 5 August 2015 at 14:21, Takashi Iwai wrote:

In theory, all regressions should be curable by package reverts :) User may try to revert relevant packages if a regression occurs by the update.

And, having old packages allows developer to check whether the regression comes from which package more easily. Currently, even just for reproducing the reported problem, you'll have to build the old package manually at each time.

Of course, this is no silver bullet. A massive update like Plasma 5 or gcc update is a totally different story.

My very strong personal opinion on the topic is, if you want rollback like that, use snapper Like you said, Individual package reverts are not a silver bullet, but I'd argue they're worse than that. Everything in Tumbleweed is tested as a collective unit, and that's how it should be used. Mixing and matching from one snapshot to another is a dangerous messy affair If someone upgrades to a new snapshot and finds problems, rolling back to using snapper should be the safe and sane option they should consider. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, On Aug 5 14:25 Richard Brown wrote (excerpt):

On 5 August 2015 at 14:21, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

... having old packages allows developer to check whether the regression comes from which package more easily. Currently, even just for reproducing the reported problem, you'll have to build the old package manually at each time.

... If someone upgrades to a new snapshot and finds problems, rolling back to using snapper should be the safe and sane option they should consider.

I think your goals contradict. As far as I understand Takashi has the developer in mind (probably the developer together with an experienced user) while in contrast it seems you have arbitrary users in mind. Imagine a user report like that: "On my TW 12346 foo does not work. After rolling back to TW 12345 it works." What does that tell the developer of foo? Not very much. Usually this means the developer needs more time to reproduce it on his own. In contrast imagine a user report like that: "On TW foo 124 does not work. After going back to foo 123 it works." Now the developer knows the root cause is likely isolated in the package foo from foo 123 -> 124. Finally imagine a user report like that: "On my TW 12346 foo 124 does not work. I tried going back to foo 123 it became even worse. After rolling back to TW 12345 with foo 123 it works." Now the developer knows the root cause could be in the package foo from foo 123 -> 124 but also it could be something outside of the package foo. If going back to an older version of a package would mess up the whole system there should be (at least in theory) appropriate RPM requirements so that one cannot easily do that. For example when zypper tells that zillions of other packages would also need to be downgraded. FWIW: I have my own opinion regarding statements that declare something to be "sane" because this implies the opposite point of view is "insane" which is argumentum ad hominem. Kind Regards Johannes Meixner -- SUSE LINUX GmbH - GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Jane Smithard, Dilip Upmanyu, Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

on., 05.08.2015 kl. 14.21 +0200, skrev Takashi Iwai:

For that purpose, yes. But what I've been thinking of is the backup; the goal is different.

Takashi

On my workstation where I have more free disk-space than I know what to do with, I use zypper mr --keep-packages --all Checking the cache for factory: embla:~ # ls -1 /var/cache/zypp/packages/factory/suse/x86_64/ | wc -l 8382 About time I run zypper clean. Not done since openSUSE-release-20150218-1.2.x86_64.rpm. That being said, I can't remember the last time I had to go and dig up a rpm from there due to breakage. //Bjørn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/05/2015 01:39 PM, Takashi Iwai wrote:

...

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 12:07 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

...

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment? TW must have looked differently to people when Greg ran the process. I somehow share that feeling, given the Greg-TW seemed hand-picked, and included reverts. The current TW on the other hand seems just like Factory with a bit of OpenQA

On Wednesday 2015-08-05 11:59, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote: thrown in, and you won't see any reverts in the automated Nussel mails. Then you did not follow all the 'Nussel mails' close enough... I assure you: there have been reverts (most of the time though before a snapshot goes out, as most such reverts are spotted to be needed during the openQA phase... but reverts DO happen) I wonder whether we may have a proper way to revert the package installation locally for TW. We get usually multiple package updates in a shot. And if a breakage happens, usually this is only about a single or a part of the updated packages. An easy fix is to revert

On Wed, 05 Aug 2015 12:10:35 +0200, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote: the affected package. But how? The previous packages are gone on TW.

The best would be to keep the old packages in our repo. Would it become too much in the end as we can't afford?

Another idea is to have backup locally: for example, make zypper keeping the old packages (as rpm) on disk for one or two versions back. Does it sound feasible?

................ { always expecting that mr jan will shout at me for something or other } one might use : Konsole output #yast2 clone_system and then save specific-dated versions of output in /root directory , of the file , such as : Konsole output #autoinst.xml autoinst_072715.xml autoinst_080515.xml .......... regards -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 05.08.2015 12:07, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Wednesday 2015-08-05 11:59, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment?

TW must have looked differently to people when Greg ran the process. I somehow share that feeling, given the Greg-TW seemed hand-picked, and included reverts. The current TW on the other hand seems just like Factory with a bit of OpenQA thrown in, and you won't see any reverts in the automated Nussel mails.

It's a bit strange to discuss problems without any specific problem at hand. But Greg-TW didn't have new compiler, no new system, no new installer - and actually didn't care about installations anyway as you installed frozen 13.2. Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 5 August 2015 at 14:21, Mike Galbraith wrote:

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 12:07 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

...

On Wednesday 2015-08-05 11:59, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment?

TW must have looked differently to people when Greg ran the process. I somehow share that feeling, given the Greg-TW seemed hand-picked, and included reverts. The current TW on the other hand seems just like Factory with a bit of OpenQA thrown in, and you won't see any reverts in the automated Nussel mails.

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. Greg advertised a rolling stable, which I found very attractive, why I gave it a trial run, loved it, and kept it. I don't blame TW folks for taking it closer to bleeding edge, but the fact remains that I then had to extract its teeth from my backside.

-Mike

Mike, if you invested the same time into bug reports for TW (the filing thereof, or maybe even the solving thereof) I assure you, TW would be less likely to bite you or anyone else in the backside The TW development process works, but it really benefits exponentially from people who a) File bug reports b) File new openQA test cases to avoid future bug reports c) Fix bugs Your quoted post above does not fall into either a), b), or c), and the time spent by either of us on these emails so far has taken longer than a) or b) would have Think about it.. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 08/05/2015 09:05 AM, Achim Gratz wrote:

Jan Engelhardt writes:

...

TW must have looked differently to people when Greg ran the process.

Yes it did. It wasn't as fuss-free as people seem to remember it, though. If you were using any extra (non-curated) repositories on top of the base system you had to pretty carefully look at what zypper told you it was going to do.

I'm probably one of the least technical people on this list. However, following the advice from Richard Brown,as well as some suggestions from James Mason and others, my Tumbleweed system is working well. The key was what Achim wrote: "...pretty carefully look at what zypper told you it was going to do". zypper dup + ? + v was helpful to get more detail, especially about changing repositories zypper lr -P supported managing repository precedence yast > software management gave the ability to lock versions or avoid loading packages. It took some work and thought, but gave a good result. Carl

...

I somehow share that feeling, given the Greg-TW seemed hand-picked, and included reverts. The current TW on the other hand seems just like Factory with a bit of OpenQA thrown in, and you won't see any reverts in the automated Nussel mails.

When the change was announced I've weighed my options and decided to stick with Tumbleweed. It may be that some other users didn't quite get what the change would look like and have second guesses about that now. So far I believe that staying with Tumbleweed is working OK for me, YMMV.

Regards, Achim.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 11:59 +0200, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

And of course you filed bugs, submitted fixes and new openQA test scripts to make sure the breakage doesn't happen anymore?

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment?

Hohum, I invest so much time in Linux as it is that there's not much of a personal life left to invest in TW. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 14:52 +0200, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 14:47 +0200, Mike Galbraith wrote:

...

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 11:59 +0200, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

...

And of course you filed bugs, submitted fixes and new openQA test scripts to make sure the breakage doesn't happen anymore?

Why is everybody expecting 0 breakage at 0 work investment?

Hohum, I invest so much time in Linux as it is that there's not much of a personal life left to invest in TW.

-Mike

There's not even enough time to actually report BUGs instead of engaging in lengthy mail threads which can't possibly lead anywhere :)

No there isn't actually. As I write this, I'm testing a kernel modification I'm working on, and catching up on email on the side.

This entire, long thread only talks about issues, how bad it is, how unstable, and blabla.. multiple times contributors asked for explicit i ssues, bug reports, facts... and so far, I still haven't seen any single such report.

Is this whole thread a meta-discussion about feelings?

In a way. The thread is about the feeling (based upon experiences) some folks have that TW stability has slipped a bit. You're free to take the thread as food for thought, feed it to your spam filter, or suggest that respondents kindly STFU with a false smiley... like this one :) -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 15:38 +0200, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 15:22 +0200, Mike Galbraith wrote:

...

In a way. The thread is about the feeling (based upon experiences) some folks have that TW stability has slipped a bit. You're free to take the thread as food for thought, feed it to your spam filter, or suggest that respondents kindly STFU with a false smiley... like this one :)

But you DO understand that this type of thread can't bring any change? At least, no other change than frustration?

Shrug. I look at it this way "Where there's smoke, there's fire". These kind of threads sure can be frustrating, don't produce tangible immediate gratification, and always go on way too long, but I think they do some good too.. people think about the things they bothered to read. -Mike -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2015-08-05 15:52, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

On Wed, 2015-08-05 at 15:50 +0200, Mike Galbraith wrote:

...

Shrug. I look at it this way "Where there's smoke, there's fire".

Sure.. and the fire dept might come out and put out your cigarette... which you'll get a bill for by the way.

you could also be more specific and tell the fire brigade as much as you know about the fire, like it's location, what buildings does it affect... and I bet you: they will be thankful and most likely get the fire much quicker under control

People can simply tell the fire brigade that they are smelling smoke somewhere near. They come and investigate ;-)

Let me know when you once find some actual outcome of SUCH a thread...

Well... consider. You have made Tumbleweed popular. As such, you also get those long threads that previously went somewhere else. They come with the pay :-p - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iF4EAREIAAYFAlXCFrcACgkQja8UbcUWM1wqQwD+PVptmcFNVjQt0F42XV41QUdY 16JtWDsY7k+C7MTzIn8A/1SQoQAMQpPoSn44tcj/bBpg8VF6ow3HCjBfXa8I18S9 =pt8F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Stephan Kulow writes:

Here is the current set of problems in TW: https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/openSUSE:Factory:Staging/dashbo...

That won't catch problems with the C++ ABI switch, though. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different." -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org