On Saturday, September 10, 2011 10:06:42 AM Nelson Marques wrote:

Well, you are in the way of loosing at least one contributor to other less fundamentalist distribution. I'm not tagging along with people who want to enforce another Kristallnacht.

Good luck with the "Kristallnacht methodology", thats not for me.

NM

2011/9/10 Alin Marin Elena :

...

Hi All,

in the last few days we had a small flood, a trickle compared with Noah's, on the mailing list about some package distributing religious content. The discussion got hijacked by personal views totally ignoring the fact that we already have guidelines for these situations...

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines#Legal

Some examples of content which are not permissible: ..... Religious texts .....

We shall decide what we should do. 1. Scrap the rule or 2. Apply the rule.

Alin

-- Without Questions there are no Answers! _____________________________________________________________________ Alin Marin ELENA Advanced Molecular Simulation Research Laboratory School of Physics, University College Dublin ---- Ardionsamblú Móilíneach Saotharlann Taighde Scoil na Fisice, An Coláiste Ollscoile, Baile Átha Cliath

------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- http://alin.elenaworld.net ______________________________________________________________________ What do you mean? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

dmueller@suse.dedmueller@suse.dedmueller@suse.deOn Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

What do you mean?

I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for... but... as I see it... a project/community like openSUSE is meant to be a pluri-cultural community, this means we have people from all believes and races tagging along for something we all believe, free open source software...

While it is legit to have such a rule to prevent openSUSE to be associated with 'religion' or 'politics' as an organization and community, which I totally subscribe, the place for such a rule would be in trademarks, logo's, official communication, forums and netiquette.

I don't think such statement should be in the packaging guidelines... lets be honest... can anyone ensure to me that packages like 'fortune' don't have any quotations with religious or political origins? Has someone ever pulled out the ban hammer on them? Why this one in particular?

I refered to Kristallnacht because many historians have pointed it as the first step to what would end up being the Holocaust. The traditional image most people have (at least that I know) is the one of burning books which became forbiden. Really from that perspective doesn't seem much different from what some people are trying to achieve.

Other distros have the package and no drama, no one seems to feel offended, but we have to be different? I'm sorry but I feel this difference bring us to the negative side of things...

I think all people agree it shouldn't be a part of the default openSUSE install, but going from there to banish the package from OBS... come on... is this really the true face of openSUSE ?.

NM

Let me see if I understand this correctly: You are comparing a policy of trying to avoid controversial topics...with the HOLOCAUST!? Wow. -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 10 September 2011 20:17:24 Nelson Marques wrote:

Wrong, we're talking about a package, packaging rules...

2011/9/10 todd rme :

...

dmueller@suse.dedmueller@suse.dedmueller@suse.deOn Sat, Sep 10, 2011

at 8:56 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

...

What do you mean?

I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for... but... as I see it... a project/community like openSUSE is meant to be a pluri-cultural community, this means we have people from all believes and races tagging along for something we all believe, free open source software...

While it is legit to have such a rule to prevent openSUSE to be associated with 'religion' or 'politics' as an organization and community, which I totally subscribe, the place for such a rule would be in trademarks, logo's, official communication, forums and netiquette.

I don't think such statement should be in the packaging guidelines... lets be honest... can anyone ensure to me that packages like 'fortune' don't have any quotations with religious or political origins? Has someone ever pulled out the ban hammer on them? Why this one in particular?

I refered to Kristallnacht because many historians have pointed it as the first step to what would end up being the Holocaust. The traditional image most people have (at least that I know) is the one of burning books which became forbiden. Really from that perspective doesn't seem much different from what some people are trying to achieve.

Other distros have the package and no drama, no one seems to feel offended, but we have to be different? I'm sorry but I feel this difference bring us to the negative side of things...

I think all people agree it shouldn't be a part of the default openSUSE install, but going from there to banish the package from OBS... come on... is this really the true face of openSUSE ?.

NM

Let me see if I understand this correctly: You are comparing a policy of trying to avoid controversial topics...with the HOLOCAUST!? Wow.

-Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

What this ACTUALLY boils down to is making a mountain out of a poorly placed molehill . Pete with mind intact -- Powered by openSUSE 11.3 (x86_64) Kernel: 2.6.34.10-0.2-desktop KDE Development Platform: 4.6.00 (4.6.0) 08:39 up 7 days 14:09, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Saturday 10 September 2011 23:24:06 Stefan Seyfried wrote:

And totally innocent screensavers (jwz's world famous webcollage) is censored from the xscreensaver package, even though all it does is download random pictures from the internet and display them...

So censorship is buried deep in the openSUSE packages ;-P

JFTR: I think all packages that are properly maintained and legal should be available in the distribution. Nobody forces anyone to install them. Even atheists might find the bible research software useful to find arguments against certain beliefs ;-)

I agree, but I also find the description of the package in question somewhat weird. Not only it promotes a point of view, but also "software for manipulating the will of God" looks somewhat sarcastic. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Ilya Chernykh [09-10-11 16:39]:

I agree, but I also find the description of the package in question somewhat weird. Not only it promotes a point of view, but also "software for manipulating the will of God" looks somewhat sarcastic.

Please provide a direct reference for your quote. I don't find that language anywhere. If you cannot, you are spreading FUD! And if this reference does not exist, this is the problem with this entire thread. The sky is falling, chicken-little! -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:37:42 +0530, Markus Slopianka wrote:

On Samstag 10 September 2011 19:06:42 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Well, you are in the way of loosing at least one contributor to other less fundamentalist distribution. I'm not tagging along with people who want to enforce another Kristallnacht.

Good luck with the "Kristallnacht methodology", thats not for me.

WTF is wrong with you? You Christian people make a huge fuss when someone calls a piece of badly written fiction literature a "bedtime story" but equalling the packaging guidelines YOU agreed on by providing packages in the first place with the Pogromnacht (that you use an euphemism created by the Nazis just speaks about you), during which ca. 100 people were killed, Jews were deported to concentration camps (where a few thousand Jews also died), etc., is now OK? You are actually saying that Pogromnacht was like a mere package deletion? WOW! You sound like modern Nazi who equal minor incidents with holocaust events in order to diminish the horrors of the actual Nazi regime. After such comments, I'd be surprised if anybody else even wants you to stay part of openSUSE any longer. And I'm pretty certain that after hearing about your soft attitude towards Nazis other distributions don't want you neither.

I'm disgusted! Markus

i don't think he means what he wrote; and he isn't the first one in this thread going overboard with sentiment and unfitting comparisions. while it's true that the comparision between package deletion & nazi crimes is ridiculous, i wouldn't want him to leave the community because of this. brains tend to over-heat during such discussions. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 15:58:59 +0530, Markus Slopianka wrote:

...

i don't think he means what he wrote; and he isn't the first one in this thread going overboard with sentiment and unfitting comparisions. while it's true that the comparision between package deletion & nazi crimes is ridiculous, i wouldn't want him to leave the community because of this. brains tend to over-heat during such discussions.

What makes the discussion even more ridiculous is that Packman offers SWORD without any problems, just as Packman offers many other packages that violate openSUSE's packaging rules. There is no need to make it part of openSUSE-official.

Any yes, the AUTHORS file from SWORD is a religious text. (The software itself is not, though.)

confirms my original impression that this whole thing is really a non-issue. didn't say anything for a long time, but eventually, when it came to discussing if or not anything religious, or controversial in other ways, should be banned, i found that i did have an opinion: i think banning is bad; criteria should be if people want to use it, if it's opensource, and if it's legal. you'll _always_ find some who'll feel offended, or who use the software in an offensive way. in this case though, since it's already available in repos tightly connected with openSUSE, i don't see why it needs inclusion either. -- phani. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Kim Leyendecker wrote:

Am 11.09.2011 12:28, schrieb Markus Slopianka:

...

What makes the discussion even more ridiculous is that Packman offers SWORD without any problems, just as Packman offers many other packages that violate openSUSE's packaging rules. There is no need to make it part of openSUSE-official.

Hm, a short question to all:

If Packman is delivering it, why should we? In other words: We愉e having a discussion, a very large discussion about something, that愀 delivered by some other people who are normally supplier the majority of our community. I still wonder why I or somebody else didn愒 came up with it earlier...

Isn't that the whole point of packman, to deliver packages that violate openSUSE policies? Why can't that argument be made for all the other packages in packman? -Todd -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 11. September 2011, 12:45:50 schrieb todd rme:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Kim Leyendecker

wrote:

...

Am 11.09.2011 12:28, schrieb Markus Slopianka:

...

What makes the discussion even more ridiculous is that Packman offers SWORD without any problems, just as Packman offers many other packages that violate openSUSE's packaging rules. There is no need to make it part of openSUSE-official.

Hm, a short question to all:

If Packman is delivering it, why should we? In other words: We愉e having a discussion, a very large discussion about something, that愀 delivered by some other people who are normally supplier the majority of our community. I still wonder why I or somebody else didn愒 came up with it earlier...

Isn't that the whole point of packman, to deliver packages that violate openSUSE policies? Why can't that argument be made for all the other packages in packman?

-Todd

Because sometimes it's about things that could be in openSUSE as long as certain options are not used, bindings not added, libraries excluded... -- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Sonntag, 11. September 2011, 12:45:31 schrieb Kim Leyendecker:

Am 11.09.2011 12:07, schrieb Markus Slopianka:

...

WTF is wrong with you? You Christian people make a huge fuss when someone calls a piece of badly written fiction literature a "bedtime story" but equalling the packaging guidelines YOU agreed on by providing packages in the first place with the Pogromnacht (that you use an euphemism created by the Nazis just speaks about you), during which ca. 100 people were killed, Jews were deported to concentration camps (where a few thousand Jews also died), etc., is now OK?

Actually, ca. 6 *million*

Actually no, not during that horrible night. But let's cool down now. This distribution has every right to create, revoke and enforce rules on what's appropriate and what's not. Religious texts seem to be a no-go under the current rules, but software for dealing with them by itself is just fine. What's left is a package description which can be fixed. iirc opensuse has software for tarot and astrology. That's really close to religious concepts. We should not break rules on a case-by-case basis but amend them if needed. -- Ralf Lang Linux Consultant / Developer B1 Systems GmbH Osterfeldstraße 7 / 85088 Vohburg / http://www.b1-systems.de GF: Ralph Dehner / Unternehmenssitz: Vohburg / AG: Ingolstadt,HRB 3537 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:14:44 -0700 Roger Luedecke wrote:

We have astrology software? I didn't even know there was Linux astrology software; and I looked! Yup, openastro

-- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.7-desktop up 5 days 14:54, 4 users, load average: 0.61, 0.62, 0.37 GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 280.13 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Monday 12 September 2011, Roger Luedecke wrote:

On Sunday, September 11, 2011 08:20:49 AM Malcolm wrote:

...

Yup, openastro

Can't find it in repos or on OBS. q_q

search options -> Include users' home projects cu, Rudi -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sunday, September 11, 2011 11:05:09 PM todd rme wrote:

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:14:44 -0700

Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

We have astrology software? I didn't even know there was Linux astrology software; and I looked!

Yup, openastro

There is also an "astrology game" in kde:unstable:playground called kamala, although I have never tried it so I don't know what it involves.

-Todd We have too many repositories... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 12 September 2011 07:51, Roger Luedecke wrote: On Sunday, September 11, 2011 11:05:09 PM todd rme wrote:

...

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Malcolm wrote:

...

On Sun, 11 Sep 2011 08:14:44 -0700

Roger Luedecke wrote:

...

We have astrology software? I didn't even know there was Linux astrology software; and I looked!

Yup, openastro

There is also an "astrology game" in kde:unstable:playground called kamala, although I have never tried it so I don't know what it involves.

-Todd We have too many repositories...

Now that I can wholeheartedly agree on :)

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2011/9/11 Markus Slopianka :

On Samstag 10 September 2011 19:06:42 Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Well, you are in the way of loosing at least one contributor to other less fundamentalist distribution. I'm not tagging along with people who want to enforce another Kristallnacht.

Good luck with the "Kristallnacht methodology", thats not for me.

WTF is wrong with you?

Except for the nasty cold... Nothing I would suppose...

You Christian people make a huge fuss when someone calls a piece of badly written fiction literature a "bedtime story" but equalling the packaging guidelines YOU agreed on by

Prejudice.

providing packages in the first place with the Pogromnacht (that you use an euphemism created by the Nazis just speaks about you), during which ca. 100 people were killed, Jews were deported to concentration camps (where a few thousand Jews also died), etc., is now

And? In what way is it different from the stuff we did in the past? The Inquisition? The Discoveries? The Reconquest? Maybe you are not aware than there is in Lisbon a place called 'Judiaria' (Jew Sector), where we enclosed Jews 600 years before Hitler. Maybe you are not aware that we had a law in the past that forced any Jew to convert, else he would be under the penalty of death (from what we made the term of 'novos cristãos' (new christians)). The Nazi attrocities, we learn them in our countries History, made by our own people centuries before. I'm not those men... As long as don't forget them, I won't make the same mistakes ;)

OK?

Not OK.

You are actually saying that Pogromnacht was like a mere package deletion? WOW!

No, I said some Historians considered it the beginning of Holocaust, this to say that one act leds to another. And eventually this act (banning one package) will led to another.

You sound like modern Nazi who equal minor incidents with holocaust events in order to diminish the horrors of the actual Nazi regime.

Diminuish? Where did I do that ?

After such comments, I'd be surprised if anybody else even wants you to stay part of openSUSE any longer. And I'm pretty certain that after hearing about your soft attitude towards Nazis other distributions don't want you neither.

I'm disgusted!

You are disgusted because as you state above, " You Christian people", you live in prejudice.

Markus -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hi, Am 12.09.2011 18:19, schrieb Alin Marin Elena:

please stop hijacking this thread with one to one discussions on religion...

this is for deciding on to drop the rule or keep the rule on packaging.

I presume, you are referencing the rule "Some examples of content which are not permissible: Comic book art files Religious texts mp3 files (patent encumbered) " Did you look at the sources of "sword" before declaring that we have those two options? I could not find any religious text within the sources of "sword". I have found only single words and some titles for the books of the bible. I do not think that we need a decision on your question as the question is (in my opinion) irrelevant to the package we talk about. Best regards Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am 12.09.2011 21:16, schrieb Alin Marin Elena:

...

Did you look at the sources of "sword" before declaring that we have those two options? I could not find any religious text within the sources of "sword". I have found only single words and some titles for the books of the bible. Did I specify that package anywhere? it is your inference...

you may reach for your search function and check the education repo before making a fool of yourself...

The sword-bible-* packages have never before been mentioned (only vague references on "sword-related" packages). As I did use the online search with private repositories enabled, I thought only about sword itself and checked only that package. Please excuse my short sight. But: This is not a factory-only question. In my opinion it is at first a packaging question and then a project question. Can this be discussed at more appropriate places? Thomas -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

2011/9/12 Dale Ritchey :

On 09/12/2011 03:02 PM, Thomas Leineweber wrote:

...

Hi,

Am 12.09.2011 18:19, schrieb Alin Marin Elena:

...

please stop hijacking this thread with one to one discussions on religion...

this is for deciding on to drop the rule or keep the rule on packaging.

I presume, you are referencing the rule

"Some examples of content which are not permissible:

Comic book art files Religious texts mp3 files (patent encumbered) "

Did you look at the sources of "sword" before declaring that we have those two options? I could not find any religious text within the sources of "sword". I have found only single words and some titles for the books of the bible.

I do not think that we need a decision on your question as the question is (in my opinion) irrelevant to the package we talk about.

Best regards

Thomas

I have sword installed on my computer which is about useless without bibletime which is a frontend to sword. as far as I can tell sword is an

There is Xiphos also, formerly known as 'gnomesword'.

engine that connects bibletime to crosswire and allows bible translations to be downloaded. I see no rational reason to include sword. It is readily available. You want to install if just enter sword and bibletime in the seardh box in the download page.. This discussion as well as the thread religious and political views in packages has gotten downright stupid. As a christian I must rebuke those christians That are not walking in the spirit

I think most people lost the track of the issue... Right now the main issue is about one specific rule that forbids contents to be built in OBS. So if this rule is enforced, this package can't be built on OBS neither be in a repository... Or am I wrong ? :/

 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- Nelson Marques /* http://www.marques.so   nmo.marques@gmail.com */ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

No, I said some Historians considered it the beginning of Holocaust, this to say that one act leds to another. And eventually this act (banning one package) will led to another.

I'm impressed how you are still convinced that secularism leads to the holocaust. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On 12.09.2011 Jos wrote:

On 10.09.2011 Alin wrote:

...

Hi All,

in the last few days we had a small flood, a trickle compared with Noah's, on the mailing list about some package distributing religious content. The discussion got hijacked by personal views totally ignoring the fact that we already have guidelines for these situations...

http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_guidelines#Legal

Some examples of content which are not permissible: ..... Religious texts .....

We shall decide what we should do. 1. Scrap the rule

This is something you can't discuss over a mailing list as the last week has clearly shown. It is something for a face to face meeting like the openSUSE conference. If anyone thinks the rules need changing, OK, let's discuss it here or at another conference which has a significant number of people attending.

...

or 2. Apply the rule.

So that's right now the way to go, I'd say. But it's the call of the team maintaining the repository (and after them the call of the release team if they accept the package or not). In the end - these 'rules' aren't black and white (but more like guidelines) and we could modify the text slightly (as has been proposed) and make an exception.

Note that I didn't mean this as an invitation for further bikeshedding. Please just discus this with the relevant people (the team) on IRC or (even better) at oSC11 and just decide... This discussion on the list should stop as it's going nowhere.

...

Alin

Meanwhile this discussion has also shown we have a problem with people behaving what I can only call childish. Apologies to all for the behavior of some here. Tomorrow we'll have a BOF at the conference to discuss having some moderation on this list.

I don't think these things have to be brought to the openSUSE Board. After all, if kids mis-behave, you don't go to the police, you give them a (verbal) slap on the wrist. It's how they learn.

Cheers, Jos