About whether the iso image file for the next major release, openSUSE Leap 16, can be added back to the GCC compiler
Regarding whether the GCC compiler can be added back to the iso image file of the next major release openSUSE Leap 16, it can be installed and used without a network as in the previous 42.1 version. Because usually, everyone who uses Linux distributions is used to learn to program, hoping to have an out-of-the-box environment. Scholars who are new to Linux see the command line gcc -o xxx.c in C language textbooks, do not know zypper, do not know how to switch sources, so they have to endure very slow download speeds, so I hope it has an environment for writing C by default.
There will never be a 16 release, next release is 15.5 On 2/12/23, 蒋明强 <Holton.Jiang@gmail.com> wrote:
Regarding whether the GCC compiler can be added back to the iso image file of the next major release openSUSE Leap 16, it can be installed and used without a network as in the previous 42.1 version. Because usually, everyone who uses Linux distributions is used to learn to program, hoping to have an out-of-the-box environment. Scholars who are new to Linux see the command line gcc -o xxx.c in C language textbooks, do not know zypper, do not know how to switch sources, so they have to endure very slow download speeds, so I hope it has an environment for writing C by default.
On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 6:07 AM Luna Jernberg <droidbittin@gmail.com> wrote:
There will never be a 16 release, next release is 15.5
We don't know that yet. And in any case, the install DVD is supposed to include basic development packages for offline install. You do have to select it to be installed during the installation process in YaST though. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On 2023-02-12 12:11, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 6:07 AM Luna Jernberg <droidbittin@gmail.com> wrote:
There will never be a 16 release, next release is 15.5
We don't know that yet. And in any case, the install DVD is supposed to include basic development packages for offline install. You do have to select it to be installed during the installation process in YaST though.
I can confirm that the openSUSE-Leap-15.4-DVD-x86_64-Build243.2-Media.iso does not contain any gcc* file. Nor does openSUSE-Leap-15.3-2-DVD-x86_64-Build24.5-Media.iso, openSUSE-Leap-15.2-DVD-x86_64.iso, openSUSE-Leap-15.1-DVD-x86_64.iso or openSUSE-Leap-15.0-DVD-x86_64.iso. I can see openSUSE-Leap-42.2-DVD-x86_64.iso/iso9660://suse/x86_64/gcc-4.8-9.61.x86_64.rpm and other files. Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2023-02-12 07:10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Hi Carlos, I don't have a horse in this race. I'm simply curious what are the Use Cases why something like *MicroOS* with *distrobox*[1] won't work for you? If you are unfamiliar, *distrobox *makes it dead-easy to set up containerized distributions of your choice. Along with it, if you want to commingle different DE's applications, you can. [1] - distrobox - https://github.com/89luca89/distrobox Cheers, --- Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering Ph: 819.459.1926 iNum: 883.5100.0990.1054
On 2023-02-12 13:24, Pablo Sanchez wrote:
On 2023-02-12 07:10, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Hi Carlos,
I don't have a horse in this race. I'm simply curious what are the Use Cases why something like *MicroOS* with *distrobox*[1] won't work for you?
If you are unfamiliar, *distrobox *makes it dead-easy to set up containerized distributions of your choice. Along with it, if you want to commingle different DE's applications, you can.
I do not want a containerized distribution. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2/12/23 05:44, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
My 2 cents.
But there are some environments in governments and big businesses where USB thumb drives are not allowed for security reasons. An employee using a thumb drive will earn a security violation, if caught. I don't agree with the policy myself, but it is what it is and stubborn bureaucrats will not be swayed. I don't know what the answer is, but I do remember when SuSE was delivered on multiple CD's. As a thought experiment, would it be possible to put a large ISO image onto a SATA SSD, then boot off of it with a SATA/USB converter? I think this might dodge Mordac, The Preventer of Information. Regards, Lew
On 12.02.2023 18:19, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 2/12/23 05:44, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
My 2 cents.
But there are some environments in governments and big businesses where USB thumb drives are not allowed for security reasons. An employee using a thumb drive will earn a security violation, if caught.
In such environment it is very unlikely that employees will be allowed installing anything even using optical media.
On 2/12/23 07:23, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 12.02.2023 18:19, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 2/12/23 05:44, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
My 2 cents.
But there are some environments in governments and big businesses where USB thumb drives are not allowed for security reasons. An employee using a thumb drive will earn a security violation, if caught.
In such environment it is very unlikely that employees will be allowed installing anything even using optical media.
True, but there are many shades of gray here and some restrictive environments do allow diversity under certain conditions. It's recognized that Windows is not the universal IT solution, especially in research oriented places. But there are still irrational hot-button issues, and thumb drives are one of them. PXE installs, as Larry suggests, may work in many contexts, but there are situations where installs must be made on stand-alone systems. There are lots of use cases out there. All that being said, the advantages of large ISO's will drive clever admins to adapt. I'll make it work, not that I'm "clever" of course! Regards, Lew
On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 08:49:00 -0800, Lew Wolfgang <wolfgang@sweet-haven.com> wrote:
On 2/12/23 07:23, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
On 12.02.2023 18:19, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
But there are some environments in governments and big businesses where USB thumb drives are not allowed for security reasons. An employee using a thumb drive will earn a security violation, if caught.
In such environment it is very unlikely that employees will be allowed installing anything even using optical media.
True, but there are many shades of gray here and some restrictive environments do allow diversity under certain conditions. It's recognized that Windows is not the universal IT solution, especially in research oriented places. But there are still irrational hot-button issues, and thumb drives are one of them.
Thumb drives are not just memory. They are active, with a CPU, and can be hacked. Besides that, they can be re-written. If you need something larger than a DVD (4.7GB), there are double-layer DVDs and Blu-Ray disks. For archiving, their write-once nature is an advantage. You can write a description on them. If your machine has no optical drive, there are external ones with a USB interface. Those are faster than the built-in laptop drives, anyway. Yes, optical disks are slow. -- Robert Webb
On Sun, Feb 12, 2023 at 4:27 PM Larry Len Rainey <llrainey15@gmail.com> wrote:
I suspect that they could use network PXE install to get by the USB port lockup. Just remember that all new laptops have no CD/DVD to install from so something else will be needed to install.
In our company, the BIOS is locked so you can only boot off a single hard disk. There is no option to boot anything else. -- Roger Oberholtzer
On 2023-02-12 16:19, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
On 2/12/23 05:44, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
My 2 cents.
But there are some environments in governments and big businesses where USB thumb drives are not allowed for security reasons. An employee using a thumb drive will earn a security violation, if caught.
I don't agree with the policy myself, but it is what it is and stubborn bureaucrats will not be swayed. I don't know what the answer is, but I do remember when SuSE was delivered on multiple CD's.
As a thought experiment, would it be possible to put a large ISO image onto a SATA SSD, then boot off of it with a SATA/USB converter? I think this might dodge Mordac, The Preventer of Information.
Yes, technically it should work. Are backup external hard disks, 2.5 inch form factor, USB3, allowed in those places? Those are bootable. Or caddies, connected via USB2/3 when you plug any standard hard disk upside down. I have booted from those, too. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2/12/23 07:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:
As a thought experiment, would it be possible to put a large ISO image onto a SATA SSD, then boot off of it with a SATA/USB converter? I think this might dodge Mordac, The Preventer of Information.
Yes, technically it should work.
Are backup external hard disks, 2.5 inch form factor, USB3, allowed in those places? Those are bootable.
Yes, they may be allowed if hoops are jumped through first.
Or caddies, connected via USB2/3 when you plug any standard hard disk upside down. I have booted from those, too.
I'll have to give it a try. Regards, Lew
On 2/13/23 00:14, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
We still have alot of users who don't have access to cheap high speed internet so that's one thing to consider. We could build a 20Gb image but would anyone actually use it? So we probably need to draw a line somewhere. Where that is I don't know personally I don't use much of the dvd so I just use the net installer. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2023-02-13 06:12, Simon Lees wrote:
On 2/13/23 00:14, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size.
Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD.
USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's.
Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98).
We still have alot of users who don't have access to cheap high speed internet so that's one thing to consider. We could build a 20Gb image but would anyone actually use it? So we probably need to draw a line somewhere. Where that is I don't know personally I don't use much of the dvd so I just use the net installer.
Maybe there could be a second DVD as add on. Optional. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, 2023-02-12 at 07:44 -0600, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
Since few if any new machines have CD/DVD's anymore - why worry about the size. Everyone put the ISO image on a USB Thumb Drive and installs from the USB drive - much faster than a DVD. USB Thumb Drives now are all 16gb or larger - starting for the price of 5 DVD's. Every PC since 1998 has USB ports (Microsoft added USB with Windows 98). My 2 cents.
What about download bandwidth? I, for one, appreciate the fact that the Leap DVD is "only" about 4GB in size. A huge media containing everything wouldn't suit my needs. TBH, I find the OP's expectation (Linux == out-of-the-box environment for C development) rather out of the ordinary. Maybe we should consider adding another DVD with auxiliary packages. Martin
Hi Carlos, Why don't you switch to tumbleweed? Generally it has been quite stable for me. Joe
On 2023-02-12 19:23, Joe Salmeri wrote:
Hi Carlos,
Why don't you switch to tumbleweed?
Generally it has been quite stable for me.
Because I don't want to do updates that frequently. Updates that can "break" this or that, needing me to use time configuring something that has changed, instead of using time just using the computer. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
Hi Carlos, You can update TW at your own frequency. I have some systems I only update once a month. Do you know about the tumbleweed-cli package? It lets you target a specific build ( of the last 20 ). I use the openqa page to pick a build which has better numbers for the passed and softfailed counts. And if something does break, you can do a btrfs rollback and then wait for it to be fixed, but in reality I haven't had anything that was so bad that I did a rollback. I also like the fact that with TW the security patches come out pretty quickly compared to other distros. I was skeptical of the rolling concept for the reasons you stated but openqa seems to to a very good job of preventing bigger issues. Just my $0.02, but figured I'd share my perspective and experience. Joe
On 2023-02-13 05:54, Joe Salmeri wrote:
Hi Carlos,
You can update TW at your own frequency. I have some systems I only update once a month.
Even that is way too much. My preference is for what we had previous to Leap: basically a snapshot taken of factory, which for about a year doesn't get version updates, only security or bug patches. Leap is not it, but is what I get. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On Sun, Feb 12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Beside that there is Tumbleweed as traditional distribution: 1. ALP, the successor of SLE15, is a platform, not a product, like SLE15, which is a platform, not a product. The products are SLES, SLED, SLE Micro, ... 2. It is correct that the first product build out of ALP will be a container Host OS. But that's only the first product, and why should somebody create a platform to only build one product out of it? 3. There are for sure workloads, which you cannot containerize. Would be stupid to give all this money to our competitiors. 4. Since ALP is a platform: nobody prevents you to find some other community members to build an openSUSE Leap 16 out of it. 5. But it is correct that there will be no "SLES16" like SLES15 today, whith a 5 digit number of packages, from which a 4 digit number of packages only compiles, but don't work and isn't used by anybody. The 4 digit number is a projection based on the number of packages we used for one product last year and the number of packages we found which don't work and couldn't work since many years, partly even over a dekade, with that. I expect that something small, which you can use as "traditional" server OS for "traditional" workloads, will come as second or third or fourth product based on ALP. So go ahead, take this, add the KDE and/or GNOME Desktop to it as done with openSUSE Leap 15.x, and you have your "openSUSE Leap 16.x". And if you miss more packages, take them from Tumbleweed. In this case it's at least for sure that they will work if somebody is really using them. That there are no plans for an "openSUSE Leap 16" today only means: the one who would normally do it don't need it, and the others prefer to complain instead of getting active. But a community project only works if people get active themself. Thorsten -- Thorsten Kukuk, Distinguished Engineer, Senior Architect, Future Technologies SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Frankenstraße 146, 90461 Nuernberg, Germany Managing Director: Ivo Totev, Andrew Myers, Andrew McDonald, Martje Boudien Moerman (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg)
On 2023-02-12 19:55, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:
On Sun, Feb 12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Beside that there is Tumbleweed as traditional distribution:
1. ALP, the successor of SLE15, is a platform, not a product, like SLE15, which is a platform, not a product. The products are SLES, SLED, SLE Micro, ...
...
4. Since ALP is a platform: nobody prevents you to find some other community members to build an openSUSE Leap 16 out of it.
...
That there are no plans for an "openSUSE Leap 16" today only means: the one who would normally do it don't need it, and the others prefer to complain instead of getting active. But a community project only works if people get active themself.
I am active. I'm just incapable of building packages or a distro. That's a skill I do not have. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.4 x86_64 at Telcontar)
On 2/13/23 06:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:
On 2023-02-12 19:55, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:
On Sun, Feb 12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Beside that there is Tumbleweed as traditional distribution:
1. ALP, the successor of SLE15, is a platform, not a product, like SLE15, which is a platform, not a product. The products are SLES, SLED, SLE Micro, ...
...
4. Since ALP is a platform: nobody prevents you to find some other community members to build an openSUSE Leap 16 out of it.
...
That there are no plans for an "openSUSE Leap 16" today only means: the one who would normally do it don't need it, and the others prefer to complain instead of getting active. But a community project only works if people get active themself.
I am active. I'm just incapable of building packages or a distro. That's a skill I do not have.
Its a skill i'm still willing to teach you :-) its easier then half the stuff you do. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
On 2/13/23 05:25, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:
On Sun, Feb 12, Carlos E. R. wrote:
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
Beside that there is Tumbleweed as traditional distribution:
1. ALP, the successor of SLE15, is a platform, not a product, like SLE15, which is a platform, not a product. The products are SLES, SLED, SLE Micro, ... 2. It is correct that the first product build out of ALP will be a container Host OS. But that's only the first product, and why should somebody create a platform to only build one product out of it? 3. There are for sure workloads, which you cannot containerize. Would be stupid to give all this money to our competitiors. 4. Since ALP is a platform: nobody prevents you to find some other community members to build an openSUSE Leap 16 out of it. 5. But it is correct that there will be no "SLES16" like SLES15 today, whith a 5 digit number of packages, from which a 4 digit number of packages only compiles, but don't work and isn't used by anybody. The 4 digit number is a projection based on the number of packages we used for one product last year and the number of packages we found which don't work and couldn't work since many years, partly even over a dekade, with that.
I expect that something small, which you can use as "traditional" server OS for "traditional" workloads, will come as second or third or fourth product based on ALP.
So go ahead, take this, add the KDE and/or GNOME Desktop to it as done with openSUSE Leap 15.x, and you have your "openSUSE Leap 16.x". And if you miss more packages, take them from Tumbleweed. In this case it's at least for sure that they will work if somebody is really using them.
I basically did this with my hackweek project, see the thread from the other day. I also intend to do something like this because I need it for atleast one of my systems, if it is just me and a couple of other people I expect that the package set will still be pretty limited but if many people find it useful (And or we can use sources being used to build ALP containers) it might start to get closer to being comparable with Leap 15's package set. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B
Carlos E. R. composed on 2023-02-12 13:10 (UTC+0100):
Meanwhile, as there are no plans for a traditional distribution after Leap, I am considering what to migrate to. Maybe Ubuntu.
I'm yet not ready to presume there won't be a v16 by whatever openSUSE release name replaces Leap. With 15.5 upcoming, we still have around two years before the gist of Leap might conceivably expire without a replacement. Keep Mageia in mind if it ever actually comes to need. It's not radically different underneath and one its face like *buntu aka Debian with extra layers of fat. It's rpm-based, coming down the path RedHat>Mandrake>Mandriva> over 10 years ago, and has an apparent release cycle longer than Leap's. 8 was released 2 years ago. 9 is nearing beta release. Desktops: Cinnamon, GNOME, IceWM, KDE, MATE, LXDE, LXQt, Openbox, WMaker, Xfce, plus, unofficially, TDE. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion, based on faith, not based on science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata
Because usually, everyone who uses Linux distributions is used to learn to program, hoping to have an out-of-the-box environment. Linux is more widely used than just by programmers, and programmers tend to know more about computers and know how to install software. That's why the default installation tends to have more software for non-programmers (e.g. LibreOffice), because there is a greater worry
Am 12.02.23 um 11:57 schrieb 蒋明强: that non-programmers might not find what they need and then jump ship. Programmers will need some perseverance anyway. ;-) Also, many programmers work with other technologies than C/C++. To be fair, we do ship Python, Ruby (though maybe not irb), and Perl. But that's mostly because the interpreters are needed to run the system, and it doesn't necessarily come with packages needed for development.
Scholars who are new to Linux see the command line gcc -o xxx.c in C language textbooks, do not know zypper, do not know how to switch sources,
You don't really need to know zypper for that, if you type in the command, bash will tell you what to do (I have gcc installed, so let's do gcc-11 instead): $ gcc-11 -c -o test.o test.c If 'gcc-11' is not a typo you can use command-not-found to lookup the package that contains it, like this: cnf gcc-11 $ cnf gcc-11 The program 'gcc-11' can be found in the following package: * gcc11 [ path: /usr/bin/gcc-11, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] Try installing with: sudo zypper install gcc11 $ sudo zypper install gcc11 ... and you have a working C compiler. Just for fun, let's try it in Chinese: $ LANG=zh_CN.UTF8 LANGUAGE=zh_CN LC_CTYPE=zh_CN.UTF8 bash $ gcc-11 -c -o test.o test.c 如果 'gcc-11' 不是输入错误的话，你可以使用 command-not-found 命令来查找它在哪个软件包中，就像这样： cnf gcc-11 $ cnf gcc-11 The program 'gcc-11' can be found in the following package: * gcc11 [ path: /usr/bin/gcc-11, repository: zypp (repo-oss) ] 试着使用下面命令安装： sudo zypper install gcc11 Not perfect, but you should get the idea.
so they have to endure very slow download speeds, so I hope it has an environment for writing C by default.
Fair enough, though GCC should be manageable even with slower connections. (It should be around 50–100 MB with deps.) That being said, one of the first things I do on a new installation is to install GCC, so I'm not against this. Just wanted to explain why it might not be shipped by default. Aaron
participants (17)
-
Aaron Puchert -
Andrei Borzenkov -
Carlos E. R. -
Felix Miata -
Jan Engelhardt -
Joe Salmeri -
Larry Len Rainey -
Lew Wolfgang -
Luna Jernberg -
Martin Wilck -
Neal Gompa -
Pablo Sanchez -
Robert Webb -
Roger Oberholtzer -
Simon Lees -
Thorsten Kukuk -
蒋明强