Wayland as default display server?
Hey everyone how are you doing? :) Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server. I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options? Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so? I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems. Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default? Kind regards, V.
* Vortex Acherontic <vortex@z-ray.de> [12-11-21 11:58]:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
aiui, wayland is not color corrected so *many* will prefer to not have it. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet oftc What sort of day was it? A day like all days, filled with those events that alter and illuminate our times...
On Sunday, 12 December 2021 12:48:21 AM +08 Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
I have been switching occasionally to Plasma Wayland every few months and this past month may be the month I finally stop switching back to X. In terms of breakage for me that got fixed that were showstoppers was Activities, the various VOIP apps that are the norm for work these days, and figuring out I had to add config parameters to get fcitx working in Wayland. I think the only thing left is the screen becoming a mess when I physically turn off the desktop's monitor, but no such issue with crashing the DE has occurred in a long time for my laptop. I use an RX580 so maybe I have been more fortunate. I am gathering from your message most of your woes is from nvidia GPUs?
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 12:15 PM Vortex Acherontic <vortex@z-ray.de> wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
GNOME has used Wayland by default since Fedora Linux 25, and Plasma has used Wayland by default since Fedora Linux 34[1]. What's changing in Fedora Linux 36 is that GNOME on NVIDIA hardware will use Wayland by default now[2]. This has already been the case for Plasma on Fedora Linux. I would certainly like to see openSUSE make similar changes, but I guess that's up to the maintainers of those desktop stacks if they want to follow and do it. IIRC, we already use Wayland by default on GNOME for openSUSE for non-NVIDIA. [1]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultForPlasma [2]: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/WaylandByDefaultOnNVIDIA -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On 12/11/21 18:18, Neal Gompa wrote:
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 12:15 PM Vortex Acherontic <vortex@z-ray.de> wrote:
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
GNOME has used Wayland by default since Fedora Linux 25, and Plasma has used Wayland by default since Fedora Linux 34[1].
Yes, and so far everyone having issues to enable screen-sharing of the *entire screen* in a WebRTC conference was a Fedora user running Wayland. Ciao, Michael.
Hi Neal, Am Samstag, 11. Dezember 2021, 17:18:33 WET schrieb Neal Gompa:
I would certainly like to see openSUSE make similar changes, but I guess that's up to the maintainers of those desktop stacks if they want to follow and do it.
I used Wayland for some days to work around a regression in Plasma https:// bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1190095[1]: It is better than it was was before, still some stuff is not working (did not note the details....) so finally I switched back to X11. Lets give wayland some more time to develop.... My 2c Axel -------- [1] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1190095
On 12/11/21 13:02, Larry Len Rainey wrote:
I would say the installer should ask if you want wayland or X - not force wayland on you like Ubuntu has in 21 and have had many going back to 20 since 21 broke so much. Do it sort of like the way you can avoid btrfs by choosing to format ext4 instead. +1!
Am 11.12.21 um 17:48 schrieb Vortex Acherontic:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
I'd say,it depends on the hardware and/or drivers. I'm using Tumbleweed with the KDE Plasma desktop on a laptop with an Intel processor with IGP and on a desktop PC with an AMD APU (Ryzen 5600G). On Intel Wayland works well lately, but on AMD (driver amdgpu) it works during the session, but on shutdown it brings the whole system to a hang and I have to switch the machine off the hard(ware) way. Not what I want to do every day... regards Hendrik
In data sabato 11 dicembre 2021 19:41:36 CET, Hendrik Woltersdorf ha scritto:
Am 11.12.21 um 17:48 schrieb Vortex Acherontic:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
I'd say,it depends on the hardware and/or drivers. I'm using Tumbleweed with the KDE Plasma desktop on a laptop with an Intel processor with IGP and on a desktop PC with an AMD APU (Ryzen 5600G). On Intel Wayland works well lately, but on AMD (driver amdgpu) it works during the session, but on shutdown it brings the whole system to a hang and I have to switch the machine off the hard(ware) way. Not what I want to do every day...
regards Hendrik openSUSE already uses wayland by default, in the limit you have to understand if KDE is ready to switch to wayland by default. Personally I am using it without problems, but this is just my experience of use. A greeting.
No . . . Wayland has issues and won't allow screensharing with apps like Gotomeeting, Zoom etc. I have to therefore use X11. Wayne On Sat, 2021-12-11 at 17:48 +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
On Sun, 2021-12-12 at 01:29 +0000, Wayne Patton wrote:
No . . . Wayland has issues and won't allow screensharing with apps like Gotomeeting, Zoom etc. I have to therefore use X11.
Wayland doet not have issues for screensharing. It's the opposite: applications like Zoom don't support Wayland screensharing... I see as a different matter completely. Screensharing on Wayland, although not properly stable, has been working since quite time on browsers and applications that support it: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_sharing
Wayne
On Sat, 2021-12-11 at 17:48 +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
-- Best Regards Danilo Spinella
There is an open issue about it which has been untouched for 1 year now. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32 I can't switch to wayland because java programs looks really bad in wayland on HiDPI display. https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield/Open+Unsolved+Problems m. On pondelok 13. decembra 2021 10:20:05 CET Danilo Spinella wrote:
On Sun, 2021-12-12 at 01:29 +0000, Wayne Patton wrote:
No . . . Wayland has issues and won't allow screensharing with apps like Gotomeeting, Zoom etc. I have to therefore use X11.
Wayland doet not have issues for screensharing. It's the opposite: applications like Zoom don't support Wayland screensharing... I see as a different matter completely.
Screensharing on Wayland, although not properly stable, has been working since quite time on browsers and applications that support it:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_sharing
On Mon, 2021-12-13 at 10:36 +0100, Michal Hlavac wrote:
There is an open issue about it which has been untouched for 1 year now. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32
This is something the screencopy protocol supports. GNOME Shell has NACKed our protocols, so they won't implement it. Other compositors like KDE are potentially interested.
It seems to me like an issue with Gnome Devs not wanting to implement this protocol. Still an issue though. My guess is that for most use cases, pipewire should suffice for now.
I can't switch to wayland because java programs looks really bad in wayland on HiDPI display. https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield/Open+Unsolved+Problems
Yea, that's another good issue and reason to not use Wayland by default. openJDK is slowly adopting Wayland, but it will take time. Maybe we can create a wiki page to track the critical issues as this one?
m.
On pondelok 13. decembra 2021 10:20:05 CET Danilo Spinella wrote:
On Sun, 2021-12-12 at 01:29 +0000, Wayne Patton wrote:
No . . . Wayland has issues and won't allow screensharing with apps like Gotomeeting, Zoom etc. I have to therefore use X11.
Wayland doet not have issues for screensharing. It's the opposite: applications like Zoom don't support Wayland screensharing... I see as a different matter completely.
Screensharing on Wayland, although not properly stable, has been working since quite time on browsers and applications that support it:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/PipeWire#WebRTC_screen_sharing
-- Best Regards Danilo Spinella
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:56 AM Danilo Spinella <danilo.spinella@suse.com> wrote:
On Mon, 2021-12-13 at 10:36 +0100, Michal Hlavac wrote:
There is an open issue about it which has been untouched for 1 year now. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32
This is something the screencopy protocol supports. GNOME Shell has NACKed our protocols, so they won't implement it. Other compositors like KDE are potentially interested.
It seems to me like an issue with Gnome Devs not wanting to implement this protocol. Still an issue though. My guess is that for most use cases, pipewire should suffice for now.
I can't switch to wayland because java programs looks really bad in wayland on HiDPI display. https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield/Open+Unsolved+Problems
Yea, that's another good issue and reason to not use Wayland by default. openJDK is slowly adopting Wayland, but it will take time. Maybe we can create a wiki page to track the critical issues as this one?
No, it isn't. Project Wakefield is about making the applications run on Wayland natively. Today, those applications run fine on Wayland as Xwayland applications. In fact, most application stacks that don't support Wayland directly work fine on Wayland through Xwayland. Unless you're crazy enough to turn off X11 compatibility in your Wayland session, switching to Wayland is transparent for all but a couple of cases (screen sharing being the main one). -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
Dne 13. 12. 21 v 11:28 Neal Gompa napsal(a):
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:56 AM Danilo Spinella <danilo.spinella@suse.com> wrote:
There is an open issue about it which has been untouched for 1 year now. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32 This is something the screencopy protocol supports. GNOME Shell has NACKed our protocols, so they won't implement it. Other compositors like KDE are potentially interested. It seems to me like an issue with Gnome Devs not wanting to implement
On Mon, 2021-12-13 at 10:36 +0100, Michal Hlavac wrote: this protocol. Still an issue though. My guess is that for most use cases, pipewire should suffice for now.
I can't switch to wayland because java programs looks really bad in wayland on HiDPI display. https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield/Open+Unsolved+Problems
Yea, that's another good issue and reason to not use Wayland by default. openJDK is slowly adopting Wayland, but it will take time. Maybe we can create a wiki page to track the critical issues as this one? No, it isn't. Project Wakefield is about making the applications run on Wayland natively. Today, those applications run fine on Wayland as Xwayland applications.
In fact, most application stacks that don't support Wayland directly work fine on Wayland through Xwayland. Unless you're crazy enough to turn off X11 compatibility in your Wayland session, switching to Wayland is transparent for all but a couple of cases (screen sharing being the main one).
Direct citation from https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield : The Wakefield Project will pursue two goals: a short to medium term solution for JDK running on Wayland in X11 compatibility mode a medium to long term solution for JDK running as a native Wayland client.
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 5:38 AM Daniel Noga <noga.dany@gmail.com> wrote:
Dne 13. 12. 21 v 11:28 Neal Gompa napsal(a):
On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 4:56 AM Danilo Spinella <danilo.spinella@suse.com> wrote:
There is an open issue about it which has been untouched for 1 year now. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/32 This is something the screencopy protocol supports. GNOME Shell has NACKed our protocols, so they won't implement it. Other compositors like KDE are potentially interested. It seems to me like an issue with Gnome Devs not wanting to implement
On Mon, 2021-12-13 at 10:36 +0100, Michal Hlavac wrote: this protocol. Still an issue though. My guess is that for most use cases, pipewire should suffice for now.
I can't switch to wayland because java programs looks really bad in wayland on HiDPI display. https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield/Open+Unsolved+Problems
Yea, that's another good issue and reason to not use Wayland by default. openJDK is slowly adopting Wayland, but it will take time. Maybe we can create a wiki page to track the critical issues as this one? No, it isn't. Project Wakefield is about making the applications run on Wayland natively. Today, those applications run fine on Wayland as Xwayland applications.
In fact, most application stacks that don't support Wayland directly work fine on Wayland through Xwayland. Unless you're crazy enough to turn off X11 compatibility in your Wayland session, switching to Wayland is transparent for all but a couple of cases (screen sharing being the main one).
Direct citation from https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/wakefield :
The Wakefield Project will pursue two goals: a short to medium term solution for JDK running on Wayland in X11 compatibility mode a medium to long term solution for JDK running as a native Wayland client.
I'm already running Java apps on Wayland (well, I've run Minecraft on Wayland...), so I'm not sure what problem they're having running Java apps in X11 compatibility mode on Wayland. From what I can see in their mailing list, they're basically working on dealing with screenshots and screen sharing stuff right now, which is the main breakage for even X11 compatibility. -- 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
On Mon, 2021-12-13 at 09:20 +0000, Danilo Spinella wrote:
On Sun, 2021-12-12 at 01:29 +0000, Wayne Patton wrote:
No . . . Wayland has issues and won't allow screensharing with apps like Gotomeeting, Zoom etc. I have to therefore use X11.
Wayland doet not have issues for screensharing. It's the opposite: applications like Zoom don't support Wayland screensharing... I see as a different matter completely.
The good old argument ... "Linux doesn't support X? False! *X is evil* because they don't support Linux" ... it has always been true, and never helpful. This is what happens if you design a new API, you can't expect every app to support it quickly. Wayland is apparently low on Zoom's priority list. All we can do is complain. Some day we shall overcome ;-) Martin
Hello, On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:48:21PM +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
AFAIK Wayland sitll does not support graphic tablets. Thanks Michal
Moin, Am Montag, 13. Dezember 2021, 13:39:37 CET schrieb Michal Suchánek:
Hello,
On Sat, Dec 11, 2021 at 05:48:21PM +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Since nvidia finally gave in and added GBM support to their proprietary driver, Gnome to support it with version 41.2 and KDE probably will do so as well if they not already doing so?
I thought it might be finally the case that Wayland can be used as a default as the last showstopper, nvidia, finally got their stuff sorted, it seems.
AFAIK Wayland sitll does not support graphic tablets.
It does. At least with Plasma it works here. Can't really tell much about application support though, I've only tried Krita as Wayland client. Cheers, Fabian
Thanks
Michal
On Mon, Dec 13 2021 at 01:39:37 PM +0100, Michal Suchánek <msuchanek@suse.de> wrote:
AFAIK Wayland sitll does not support graphic tablets.
That's handled quite well by libinput, and works better than on X https://wayland.freedesktop.org/libinput/doc/latest/tablet-support.html I even went ahead and grabbed my old wacom tablet and it's plug and play, I see a second cursor on the screen and can use it to draw with varying pressure and use the eraser in gnome tablet settings panel just fine. LCP [Sasi] https://lcp.world/
Am Samstag, 11. Dezember 2021, 17:48:21 CET schrieb Vortex Acherontic:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I've been using wayland sessions for the last months, TW and KDE, recently on a new notebook with a high dpi screen. Work: office, emacs (pgtk, native comp), TeX, firefox, kmail, various pdf viewers, dolphin, zoom, teams, and the like. Issues: high dpi does not work out of the box. Popup menus especially are a nuisance. Menus are displayed far from the frame. Multi monitor operation works, but the other two screens are only full hd and this leads to huge menu sizes on the hd-screens or to unreadable sizes on the 4k screen. I don't share screens. Things work and I like the fast KDE under wayland. I'm trying to avoid xwayland and thus compile emacs myself. -- Regards, Alexander
On Sat, 2021-12-11 at 17:48 +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Would like to hear what going on behind the scenes or if there are any reasons I did not though of to not make Wayland the default?
Kind regards, V.
For me the main blocking point is lack of support for a keyboard/mouse sharing solution. This has been in the works in barrier for more than 3 years, and it's still not finished [1], even though they collected a bounty of >$2500 [2]. If anyone knows of something that works (both wayland<->wayland and wayland<->X11), please let me know. There's waynergy [3], but I'm unsure how mature it is. Martin [1] https://github.com/debauchee/barrier/issues/109#issuecomment-926226548 [2] https://www.bountysource.com/issues/61664045-wayland-support-donation-target... [3] https://github.com/r-c-f/waynergy
On Sat, 2021-12-11 at 17:48 +0100, Vortex Acherontic wrote:
Hey everyone how are you doing? :)
Recently I've read that Fedora will (once again?) try to make Wayland their default display server.
I was wondering if something similar is planed for openSUSE as well? Maybe for the Gnome and KDE system role options?
Wayland has been the default for GNOME for so long this thread made me worry my mail client had broken its ordering by date -- Richard Brown Linux Distribution Engineer - Future Technology Team SUSE Software Solutions Germany GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuremberg, Germany (HRB 36809, AG Nürnberg) Managing Director/Geschäftsführer: Ivo Totev
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