Quoting Stephan Kulow <coolo@suse.de>:

On 05.08.2012 14:38, Christian Boltz wrote:

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Hello,

it looks like someone cleaned up the version list in bugzilla for reporting new bugs.

Unfortunately, version "Factory" is no longer available for 12.2 (only RC1, RC2 and Final), and no other product (like openSUSE 12.3) was created where bugs against Factory can be reported.

Please provide a way to select version "Factory" when reporting a bug - this most probably means to create the product "openSUSE 12.3" in bugzilla.

First we need to decide if we skip 12.3 or not :)

Let's call the product "openSUSE Next". Factory testers surely have the need to report their bugs somewhere at this moment (12.2 is wrong, as we split out and new bugs appear in Factory which we hopefully do not port to 12.2 at this time). Best regards, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday 2012-08-06 13:37, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Please provide a way to select version "Factory" when reporting a bug - this most probably means to create the product "openSUSE 12.3" in bugzilla.

First we need to decide if we skip 12.3 or not :)

openSUSE had a vote on the numbering not too long ago. Of course there will be 12.3. That is, unless there has been a new edict from NBG that I don't know of. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:28 PM, Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:

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On 2012-08-06 20:17, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Monday 2012-08-06 13:37, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Please provide a way to select version "Factory" when reporting a bug - this most probably means to create the product "openSUSE 12.3" in bugzilla.

First we need to decide if we skip 12.3 or not :)

openSUSE had a vote on the numbering not too long ago. Of course there will be 12.3. That is, unless there has been a new edict from NBG that I don't know of.

The idea was not release the next version at the date when 12.3 was scheduled to be released (because it will be too short after the delayed 12.2) and instead release 13.1 on the correct date, skipping 12.3.

Alternatively, 12.3 would have to be released on the date scheduled for 13.1.

The other alternative is to release 12.3 on time, with fewer features.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Is there not an option to ship (opensuse 12.3) 8 months after 12.2 is released. Thus if 12.2 is released Sept 15, 2012, then 12.3 comes out May 15, 2012. That seems the most logical to me. Separately, If we truly skip 12.3, will 12.1 and 12.2 support will be extended to keep it 2 supported releases + 2 months extra. That is will they both be supported until release (n+2) plus 2 months. If skipping 12.3 implies to me that 12.1 support will have to be pushed out an extra 8 months as well. Greg -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 07 août 2012, à 02:27 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

On 08/07/2012 12:15 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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Separately, If we truly skip 12.3, will 12.1 and 12.2 support will be extended to keep it 2 supported releases + 2 months extra.

Nice :-)

Per the definition of the support period, they have to do just that.

s/they/we/ You're part of the community, aren't you? :-) Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, 2012-08-07 at 13:20 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-08-07 08:32, Vincent Untz wrote:

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Le mardi 07 août 2012, à 02:27 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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On 08/07/2012 12:15 AM, Greg Freemyer wrote:

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Separately, If we truly skip 12.3, will 12.1 and 12.2 support will be extended to keep it 2 supported releases + 2 months extra.

Nice :-)

Per the definition of the support period, they have to do just that.

s/they/we/ You're part of the community, aren't you? :-)

But I'm not a maintainer, so I don't use "we" in this context.

Wasn't there already a statement in a previous thread that the +2 will be extended according to the actual release date? I think this question is already resolved. Bryen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wednesday 08 of August 2012 14:46EN, Greg Freemyer wrote:

I don't recall any discussion of how long 12.1 and 12.2 support would last if the 12.3 release is not actually released. I can only assume that 12.1 and 12.2 would see their officially supported life extended 8 months each if that were to happen.

There is no need to explicitly extend the lifetime. The general rule is "two releases plus two months". So whatever the next release is named and whenever it is released, 12.1 will be supported until two months after its release. Unless we change the rule, of course. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

Will bugzillas be closed 4 months in advance of end of support, as wontfix, check the next version, as many 11.4 bugzillas have been closed last week?

Yes, of course, they will. http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-08-13 03:00, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Will bugzillas be closed 4 months in advance of end of support, as wontfix, check the next version, as many 11.4 bugzillas have been closed last week?

Yes, of course, they will.

http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

Ha, ha.

Dunno if smile or cry...

Well, the fallacy is the disconnect between developpers and active users what it means to »be part of the community«. Many developers think that »being part of the community« means being active to the point of destroying one's working system. For them, it's not a big matter. They live on the edge all the time, and error reports only matters if they refer to the current development line. For users who thougt »being part of the community« means investing the effort of creating a Bugzilla ticket, it's frustrating. First, it lingers many months (maybe because it was assigned to a person gone from the community), then you are asked to assess the problem happens again with the most current version. -- A version that you are not willing to install on your main workstation as it will probably kill lots of your work. Before you managed to reproduce both the original problem in an VM and check if the problem still re-occurs then, the new version is deployed and you're out of luck. Well, bad things happen, don't they? The end result is clear, isn't it? Just don't report problems in openSUSE that are not essential to your usage and where you aren't willing to spend lots of effort (and are not willing to set up an VM test environment) to follow-up and reproduce. It's better for you and your mental health. Worst is: I can understand why the openSUSE developers react that way. With my developer hat on (I'm one of the TeX Live upstream devs), I catch myself responding to bug reports similar to the openSUSE devs, too. But the experience here makes me reflect on that and makes the case to change that behavior. It makes me react to TL problem reports more »soft«. So, thanks to openSUSE for that learning experience... ;-) Just my 0.04 € (adjusted for inflation) Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Worst is: I can understand why the openSUSE developers react that way. With my developer hat on (I'm one of the TeX Live upstream devs), I catch myself responding to bug reports similar to the openSUSE devs, too. But the experience here makes me reflect on that and makes the case to change that behavior. It makes me react to TL problem reports more »soft«. So, thanks to openSUSE for that learning experience... ;-)

Well, with my dev hat on (I did that for a living some years ago) I had to solve bugs no matter what. The client could not be left in the mud, because then he would not buy from us again.

Sorry but you can't compare the situation of volunteers in a community-based open source project, and a paid-for developer that get its work assignments by management decree. That just doesn't work. If you want that behavior "as a customer", you have to pay. Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-08-13 23:05, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Well, with my dev hat on (I did that for a living some years ago) I had to solve bugs no matter what. The client could not be left in the mud, because then he would not buy from us again.

Sorry but you can't compare the situation of volunteers in a community-based open source project, and a paid-for developer that get its work assignments by management decree. That just doesn't work. If you want that behavior "as a customer", you have to pay.

As matter of fact, I do.

Yes, so do I. I think it is perfectly reasonable to compare the two, and look at why they work in different ways despite the customer or user expectations being virtually the same.

I call it responsibility and being proud of a job well done.

That is part of it, definitely. I don't know to what extent that can be applied to a distro project, but it works quite well for smaller (relatively speaking) projects. The problem we have is that lack of attention to bug reports from one side only causes lack of attention to bug reports from the other too. I.e. when bugs aren't being looked at or fixed, they'll eventually not be reported either. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (20.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

lynn wrote:

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Sorry but you can't compare the situation of volunteers in a community-based open source project, and a paid-for developer that get its work assignments by management decree. That just doesn't work. If you want that behavior "as a customer", you have to pay.

I think that is an unreasonable statement and one which presents openSUSE devs in a bad way.

The openSUSE devs do a magnificent job and I'd bet many of them put more effort and pride into their openSUSE projects than their day job.

For the record, I think you completely misunderstood the point that I wanted to make. It was never about pride and effort, but about relative importance of bug reports and priorization of work. Not all bug reports are made equal. One needs to prioritize. If you think different, you live in a different universe than mine. "So much to do, so little time." -- Jamie Zawinsky, Lucid Emacs motto, http://www.jwz.org/hacks/ My universe is: I'm active in Open Source Software since 1982, and am responsible of quite some TeX-related software development, infrastructure and standardization, CTAN among them. What is your universe? Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

As have I. But you have to understand, and I agree with Joachim 100%, that there is more effort being put forth to advance the distribution as a whole meaning new releases and new technologies than fixing a bug that affects a small % of users for an older version that is soon to become EOL. If you wish to help the chances of your bug being fixed, please test it against 12.1 or even better factory. Understand the release cycles and how your timing in relation to those can greatly increase the chances of a bug being fixed. On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, 2012-08-14 at 10:17 +0200, lynn wrote:

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On 2012-08-13 23:05, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Sorry but you can't compare the situation of volunteers in a community-based open source project, and a paid-for developer that get its work assignments by management decree. That just doesn't work. If you want that behavior "as a customer", you have to pay.

Hi I think that is an unreasonable statement and one which presents openSUSE devs in a bad way.

The openSUSE devs do a magnificent job and I'd bet many of them put more effort and pride into their openSUSE projects than their day job.

-- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hello, Am Freitag, 17. August 2012 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 2012-08-17 01:49, Andrew Joakimsen wrote:

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As have I. But you have to understand, and I agree with Joachim 100%, that there is more effort being put forth to advance the distribution as a whole meaning new releases and new technologies than fixing a bug that affects a small % of users for an older version that is soon to become EOL.

We might as well be serious and say the truth, that the releases are only maintained for 12 months.

That wouldn't be a good idea ;-) Security issues _will_ be handled for older versions, but it's probably impossible to backport all non-security bugfixes to older versions. And that's more or less a description of how it is handled at the moment ;-) In the months after the release, there are lots of updates which also include bugfixes. Later the maintainers usually only provide updates for security issues. (That's nothing written in stone, but many maintainers handle it this way.)

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If you wish to help the chances of your bug being fixed, please test it against 12.1 or even better factory.

What for? They will be ignored. :-/

There is a good chance that they'll get fixed ;-) I collected some statistics from bugzilla some months ago (snapshot from 2012-05-16), and found that about 50% of all closed bugreports were marked as FIXED. This percentage is quite stable since openSUSE 10.0. There are of course personal differences - some reporters have better FIXED rates than others (I got about 60% of my bugreports fixed, so someone else must have a lower rate ;-) Another 15% are DUPLICATE, and at least 5% NORESPONSE. This leaves about 30% for INVALID, WONTFIX, WORKSFORME, UPSTREAM and FEATURE. You can of course argue that I did not include open bugreports in my statistics. That's correct, but the percentages are more or less stable since openSUSE 10.0 (which doesn't have many bugs left open), so the number of open bugs isn't too relevant. (To be exact, in the early development phase, the percentage of fixed bugs is higher - when I took the snapshot 3 monts ago, 70% of the closed 12.2 bugs were marked as fixed.) You can also argue that we have too many open bugs, and you are perfectly right about that.That's the usual a-day-has-only-24-hours problem ;-) I'm afraid the only working solution for this is to close old bugs (to get rid of the backlog) and ask the reporter to reopen them if they are still valid on newer releases. That means a bit work for the reporter, but allows the developers to focus on bugs that apply to the current release. (Yes, I know that's annoying from the bugreporter's POV.) The alternative is: Find [soneone who pays] 20 additional developers to check and fix all the bugs. I'm sure lots of people would be happy about this ;-) If you know a better solution, please tell us ;-) BTW: If you want to do some statistics yourself, you can use the "Reports" feature of bugzilla - https://bugzilla.novell.com/report.cgi Regards, Christian Boltz -- you should realize that the majority of the developers are located in Germany (that's in Europe). There are time differences involved (not everyone works 24 hrs/day like Andreas Jaeger) [Rasmus Plewe in opensuse] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-08-13 23:05, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Well, with my dev hat on (I did that for a living some years ago) I had to solve bugs no matter what. The client could not be left in the mud, because then he would not buy from us again.

Sorry but you can't compare the situation of volunteers in a community-based open source project, and a paid-for developer that get its work assignments by management decree. That just doesn't work. If you want that behavior "as a customer", you have to pay.

As matter of fact, I do.

I call it responsibility and being proud of a job well done.

A full-paid developer has 8+ hours a day to work on problems of his/her code. An unpaid volunteers doesn't have the time. Thus, he has to prioritize and will do the things first that are most important to his vision for the project. Bugs in not-current development tiers are most often not among those highly prioritized issues. Please note, lynn's gross misunderstanding notwithtaken, that I don't say that devs don't care for bugs or are not interested in improving their projects. I say that bugs in older non-current versions that are not demonstrated to be there in current development lines are NOT AS IMPORTANT. The result of more important issues pressing is -- they get to be postponed for quite some time. One doesn't know in advance how much "quite some time" is, but as The Master tells @d infinity=255 { $\infty$ (approximately) } -- DEK, in weave.web, line 4659 To assume different is a blue-eyed misconception in the social dynamic any developer works in, be it paid-for or in a community. (Please note, that has nothing to do with Open Source Software; it's an economical issue -- where "economical" is not about money, but about gains for effort.) Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

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On 2012-08-15 01:20, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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As matter of fact, I do.

I call it responsibility and being proud of a job well done.

A full-paid developer has 8+ hours a day to work on problems of his/her code. An unpaid volunteers doesn't have the time. Thus, he has to prioritize and will do the things first that are most important to his vision for the project.

On the contrary, a volunteer has the time. There is no boss saying what you have to do, so you do what has to be done, no matter what, till the job is perfect.

What planet do you live on? My volunteer hours are truly limited, but I try because if I don't no one will. I know that for a fact because most of the 20 or 30 packages I maintain will be new to the distribution with 12.2. Thus my limited time is the only reason these packages are in opensuse at all. Perfecting them is something for the upstream developing, not me the simple downstream packager. As to evergreen, I've watched it and seen little in the way of true bug fixing done by the evergreen maintainers. They are stretched very thin and focus on backporting fixes for the supported release. So if there is a 11.4 bug that doesn't exist in 12.1, I seriously doubt the evergreen team will be trying to fix it, sorry if that doesn't match your expectations. Of course a normal maintainer may work on a package bug during the evergreen support period, but i've seen very little of that. Almost ll the evergreen patches come from the core evergreen team. Greg -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 13/08/12 03:37, Joachim Schrod wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-08-13 03:00, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Will bugzillas be closed 4 months in advance of end of support, as wontfix, check the next version, as many 11.4 bugzillas have been closed last week?

Yes, of course, they will.

http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html

Hi I thought 11.4 was evergreen. Good for a few more years yet. . . L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 14/08/12 10:32, DenverD wrote:

On 08/14/2012 10:11 AM, lynn wrote:

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On 13/08/12 03:37, Joachim Schrod wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote: Hi I thought 11.4 was evergreen. Good for a few more years yet. . .

apparently it will move into Evergreen and just ignore the bugs...

which i don't understand.....kinda sad actually.

Hi That's a pity. I thought evergreen was the equivalent of something like ubuntu LTS. Maybe we should have a LTS? e.g. I think SuSE do 7 years on SLES. L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-08-14 10:46, Marcus Meissner wrote:

11.4 bugs can still be picked up and fixed by whoever choses to do so.

The SUSE kernel teams just decided it will not look at the kernel bugs still, as they have other higher prioritized work.

All my 11.4 bugs have been closed, kernel or not. Even new bugs introduced by security updates. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlAsOGAACgkQIvFNjefEBxrxngCZAeMgE8nRTr4cU5b5/tDGWUJd HLEAn3QSPeO8EemNPXqnqu3fZj13RYTC =SHAm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:09:53 AM Stephan Kulow wrote:

On 06.08.2012 20:17, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Monday 2012-08-06 13:37, Stephan Kulow wrote:

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Please provide a way to select version "Factory" when reporting a bug - this most probably means to create the product "openSUSE 12.3" in bugzilla.

First we need to decide if we skip 12.3 or not :)

openSUSE had a vote on the numbering not too long ago. Of course there will be 12.3. That is, unless there has been a new edict from NBG that I don't know of.

Hi Jan!

Well, of course there will be a 12.3 - the question is if we release it or not. And as you see, I added a smiley behind the line - you can read details about use of emotions in emails at [1]

Greetings, Stephan

After a big zypper dup yesterday now I am using the following automatic produced signature. " powered by openSUSE 12.3 Milestone 0 (i586)" :) -- Linux User 183145 using KDE4 on a Pentium IV , powered by openSUSE 12.3 Milestone 0 (i586) Kernel: 3.5.0-1-default KDE Development Platform: 4.8.5 (4.8.5)) 20:28pm up 1:25, 4 users, load average: 1.32, 1.54, 1.92 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org