On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

One can argue with the process by which systemd was delivered to market, but the deprecation of sysvinit is a practical certainty; it's simply, now, a matter of time. systemd is a fact of life for Fedora, Gentoo, Arch & Debian -- all are embracing it, or already have. Redhat/Centos are well under way. Ubuntu's off on its upstart tangent ... What's lacking in Opensuse iis a concerted, mandated, and well-communicated effort at ensuring that every daemon has a functional systemd unit, and robust/current documentation. NOT systemd's underlying functionality. systemd on Opensuse, as v37 in 12.1, or v44 in 12.2 & beyond, is perfectly capable of managing enterprise apps/daemons. To retain any semblance of credibility in the enterprise going forward, as well as to address the realities of limited resources, Domnique's recommendation that "the openSUSE Project should focus on SystemD as the one supported Init System" should be given serious consideration. There's justifiable argument on both issues that it should have been done for 12.2 release, which is already causing headaches on the ground. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 03/09/12 13:59, Carlos E. R. escribió:

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On 2012-09-03 18:56, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

To retain any semblance of credibility in the enterprise going forward, as well as to address the realities of limited resources, Domnique's recommendation that "the openSUSE Project should focus on SystemD as the one supported Init System" should be given serious consideration.

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

That's something third parties have to fix, vmware has resources devoted to linux, you are asking preaching to the wrong chore. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 19:05, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 03/09/12 13:59, Carlos E. R. escribió:

...

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

That's something third parties have to fix, vmware has resources devoted to linux, you are asking preaching to the wrong chore.

That's why I hate systemD, that it's proponents simply do not care for our problems. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFLj0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1wrcgEAlh8SHIvpG15+wy45uglym5Rb AZik/lGkyofaFRQbHVEA/253T4+9xZlUZVr2rPB+YYzwYjC1/sfcGsx5Cws69kvP =lPAo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 01:02, Sid Boyce wrote:

I have to side with Byren, YOUR PROBLEMS not mine nor millions out there happily using systemd.

Exactly. You do not care. Don't say any more. Nice community... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFOBIACgkQja8UbcUWM1zIBAEAjLFWdHbMqWO0DWmjqngjRqiV QnmduIkmN6qFTmyWL44A/1KBuws4OoMZJBuEYNISE3ZlDE9IW+pgQfIwYNIJ0YLK =MQ3q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04/09/12 03:24, Rajko wrote:

On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 01:06:58 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

Exactly. You do not care. Don't say any more.

Nice community... Let we put this in another perspective.

All that you care is that system is running, and you are not different in this then me and all other on this list - developers or not.

Now. You are not developer. You don't know what problems they have to keep sysvinit running. You don't know when sysvinit system will start breaking and fall apart because there is no more sufficient resource to keep it up.

On the other side you have developers that know answer on at least first question, and some with better insight can predict when maintenance will start failing, but you don't trust them.

I can understand why, as they did bring new stuff before that took long to stabilize (PulseAudio, KDE4, GNOME3. package management), or completely failed (Beagle).

Problem is that we don't remember all good stuff that worked fine, and that pile is much bigger then the failed, but that is how human brain works, good stuff is not a danger that you have to watch and avoid, bad is.

When you think about good and bad events, did you notice one common denominator to good ones?

They all were accepted by majority of distributions in a short time and that is the case with systemd. Some of SUSE developers can be eager to have it, and if they would be alone, or even in Fedora company, I would be suspicious too, but it is not only those two, it is just about every respectable distro around.

Fact is that: World is changing, and oldtimers that invested time to learn how to use sysvinit will have more trouble to get used to systemd, just as Windows power users have a more trouble to accept Linux than new computer users.

World will not stop turning around because you, or me, have a problem to accept that there is something new, pull up sleeves and learn new ways.

Easy on us oldtimers there Rajko, We are often in the vanguard of accepting change because we have always had to embrace change. In some other fields, e.g Software Defined Radio technology, at 70.5 I am made to feel the youngster as it's the over 70's that are driving innovation in that field. New things to learn, new excitement and new challenges even as eyesight is on the way down we tackle construction where the components are smaller than a grain of rice and the chip pins multiply and get smaller and closer together - the spice of life at our advanced stage of life. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

I don't see why the wheel has to be reinvented, or worse, why I have to suffer the testing of the new wheel, and why I have to change the load I can carry in the new train because that kind of luggage is incompatible with the new trains.

Then don't upgrade. Simple. Nobody's forcing anybody to 'suffer' anything. The astonishing amount of time & energy spent complaining, name calling, etc on this topic -- mostly by the same cast of characters -- could easily have been spent calmly & professionally documenting the issues, and working through them. Instead, a fine spectacle has been made, nothing's been accomplished, and harm's been done. Congratulations. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-08 02:13, Brian K. White wrote:

On 9/6/2012 10:26 PM, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

Congratulations.

You punch me in the nose, but I'm disruptive and counterproductive for yelling about it? No. Thanks for the insight though.

:-} - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBKjpUACgkQja8UbcUWM1ygHAD/eDiMVzXwl9vnhZM0+YxyaZMd aWcNPi08cknSCpMALcgA+wUqsBbavSHkxOQhMQndRwURnmWAD+oOmFImf0GuM6A1 =VoDO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-07 14:12, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

Am 07.09.2012 04:15, schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

No, that part of the reasoning is false. Simply by putting the devs that are working on systemd to work on systemv instead, there would be resources and it would not break.

Haha, and that is your problem: you simply can't tell me what to work on. You can, of course, try to. But I'll happily ignore that.

And that is a problem with free software development: there is no sense of duty. Developers do what they like to do, not what they should do. And before you answer, let me tell you that in my work for the community, I do what is in the pool of jobs to do, not what I would like to do. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJ52EACgkQja8UbcUWM1zq8wD/ce8jHY3PQf9zftb/THs5FKqI /e05pSDLdUfhVD4IaPkA/jni4oPUMKs6DMYZMRps6QNXOlYEvWov1L2W29cOJyv0 =3hcb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> [09-07-12 08:25]:

And before you answer, let me tell you that in my work for the community, I do what is in the pool of jobs to do, not what I would like to do.

And do you choose something from the pool that you are more likely to "like to do" or something that you know other do "not like to do"? :^) More than one way to show preference, but your selfless commitment is commendable. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 2012-09-07 14:24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

And that is a problem with free software development: there is no sense of duty.

It's great to be selfless, but even poor monks need something to eat to be able to do their daily duty. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Sid Boyce wrote:

On 03/09/12 23:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

That's why I hate systemD, that it's proponents simply do not care for our problems.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith))

I have to side with Byren, YOUR PROBLEMS not mine nor millions out there happily using systemd.

You've got that exactly backwards. You start with a working system. Which is what Carlos had. Then someone else introduces a change and Carlos's system breaks. What's different? The Change. What broke the system? The Change. What is at fault? The Change. The problem likes with the change, not those things that didn't change.

I wouldn't call myself a proponent - systemd was introduced and I had to come to terms with it.

So it was forced down your throat, you are saying?

Other stuff is coming down the road to generate considerable heat, like wayland.

Which only should go to show the open source community -- that we no longer have choice in the community -- the agenda is being driven by corporate interests that have taken over the movement. Gnu is bound by Corporate POSIX, SuSE and RedHat are supporting MS's methods by agreeing to pay MS money and buy an MS-revokable license for shim-layer code.

For every action there always will be an equal and opposite reaction - may be not equal but an opposition which eventually subsides and dies.

Yeah, like the move to 'New Coke' -- that went over real well. Idiot. Opposite doesn't subside and die -- it often forces rethinking the initial force -- if there is anything of the original force left -- and as near as I can tell...new coke isn't around anymore. So 'Classic' example of ill-thought out actions being obliterated by the reaction. Any more words of wisdom?

Like Linus says, the one constant in Linux is change and that has been so for every OS of the dozen or so I have encountered in the last 42 years. In that time I have not seen any surge in complaints that we should stick with the previous way of working, we just got on and adjusted to the new.

Linus doesn't force incompatible changes each release. You can still run 2.4 and 2.6 versions of the kernel -- the support is longer than an 18 month cycle.

With proprietary systems you don't get an opportunity to voice dissent or influence what's delivered.

---- Oh?

You don't argue with development directions with z/OS, Solaris, OSX or Windows as such arguments will get you nowhere and the rub is you pay dearly for them.

z/OS? Who's that? Solaris -- they went out of business because of dissent -- .. What do you mean, you don't argue. Sun isn't around anymore because they didn't listen to the customer.

If there is an outcry like Ubuntu's introduction of Unitywhere there is a mass defection to KDE, Gnome, etc., there are alternative choices but ultimately the decisions are made in accordance with the road ahead as the teams see it.

That's where you are full of caca. Such thinking is why many companies are no longer around. MS had it's first losing money year since it started --- why? Win7 is the only option they are providing, and they WinXP was what people wanted.

Regards Sid.

You may want us to believe we have no power, but history would show that you are wrong. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting Per Jessen <per@computer.org>:

Thought experiment: Try imagining IBM pulling a "systemd" on their JES2 users ...

I'm sure if you start donating the money you invested in IBM z/Series systems to the community, you can find a bunch of users maintaining sysv for you... Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012, at 09:59 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2012-09-03 18:56, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

To retain any semblance of credibility in the enterprise going forward, as well as to address the realities of limited resources, Domnique's recommendation that "the openSUSE Project should focus on SystemD as the one supported Init System" should be given serious consideration.

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

What is "it"? Toasters & commercial distributions come with guarantees. As for Opensuse, we've converted every 3rd-party enterprise app we use to systemd. Some pacakged a systemd unit, some were trivial to write our own, others took more effort. All required reading the docs @ other distros, spending time in #systemd community, communicating with 3rd party app developers, doing the work, and testing thoroughly. init.d development & support @Opensuse for many apps took exactly the same path. Now that that they work for me, I have my guarantees. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 20:11, Per Jessen wrote:

chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

Now that that they work for me, I have my guarantees.

Good for you. As a community trying to make good on promises made, we have to look a little farther though.

Absolutely. SystemD has no care for the community. :-(

- -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFLq0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1wKDgD/QOeHpTml45XcXR6nWxoDnaHh 8CPwiYBGScdWZsBwzVIA/RguvkQ2vMsYvVAbYGTG9JEhXHyzRmyFqpw6UMhEAxdc =Wd2O -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 20:06, Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

3ware init scripts, HP proliant support pack scripts. There is plenty. Having said that, sofar I have not seen any compatibility issues except the learning curve in writing ones own systemd modules (or whatever they're called).

I prefer things to work directly, not me to have to do their work. Worse, systemD in openSUSE is still not documented: <http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-reference/cha.boot.html> systemV documentation was there, was deleted, and not replaced, almost a year ago already. :-( Another sample: openSUSE rccrypto scripts, they do not work, and are not going to be repaired. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFMGkACgkQja8UbcUWM1xI6AD/R/otVdiOJ5pGSFvLaDU/io4C pfJvoFv3O4A+Bm4GRawA/AgYNS4qGlcV8u1I5A1qI8ao0qVEPrtE1QsJVnjhU1dJ =1wip -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 02:17:21AM -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

On 03/09/12 19:34, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I prefer things to work directly, not me to have to do their work. Worse, systemD in openSUSE is still not documented:

systemd has extensive documentation. what are you talking about ?

Umm, have you actually looked at the link provided in the (in this partucular case) incorrectly shortened mail you cite? Having that page link to that documentation will easily resolve this point, but this answer seems to indicate an unwillingness (or an incapability) to *try* to understand what people are complaining about. IMO systemd is much better than sytemv-init already but it still has it's bugs, even such small ones as an effectively useless documentation page in the handbook. Ciao Jörg -- Joerg Mayer <jmayer@loplof.de> We are stuck with technology when what we really want is just stuff that works. Some say that should read Microsoft instead of technology. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 septembre 2012, à 00:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

Another sample: openSUSE rccrypto scripts, they do not work, and are not going to be repaired.

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way. Or am I missing something? Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/04/2012 05:15 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

...

Another sample: openSUSE rccrypto scripts, they do not work, and are not going to be repaired.

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way.

Or am I missing something?

IMVHO, instead of breaking everything, rccrypto scripts should have invoked that functionality you mention to make it transparent to the user.

This is all assuming that functionality is there and really equivalent as you say (which in some cases I remember it was not, like the case of vmware stuff and everything status-querying-related).

Why do I think so? Because sysadmins all over the place (and end users too) have a large body of scripts they will want to... not rewrite. You can't remove "rcstuff" and say it's ok, it's not on your users eyes. If you don't care, well, you're entitled not to care. As your users are entitled to be upset.

In the past there was a lot of difference on how distros booted and how you interacted with your init systems. Systemd allows to unify some of that - and I think that's good. Btw. in general rcXXX contains to work fine on openSUSE with systemd, the engineers took care that it works - instead of declaring it as obsolete etc. A couple of guys did take care that many of the ways you interact today with SysV init work the same way with systemd - that makes the transition easier... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/04/2012 09:02 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:52 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:

...

...

Why do I think so? Because sysadmins all over the place (and end users too) have a large body of scripts they will want to... not rewrite. You can't remove "rcstuff" and say it's ok, it's not on your users eyes. If you don't care, well, you're entitled not to care. As your users are entitled to be upset.

In the past there was a lot of difference on how distros booted and how you interacted with your init systems. Systemd allows to unify some of that - and I think that's good.

Yes, and that's very good. But in 12.1, service status reporting was quite lacking with SystemD, and it was a SystemD shortcoming, not a packaging or training issue.

Can you give me an example so that we can compare with 12.2?

I don't know yet whether it's been improved though, but if it hasn't, it should. Thing is, the people in charge of it were quite... opposed to it. For no reason other than "we don't want to". Hence all the griping. With such a predisposition, many (including me) feel uncomfortable leaving it as the only option to a very critical subsystem.

Perhaps it's such predisposition the thing that must change to improve SystemD acceptance.

I don't think you ever interacted properly with Frederic Crozat, who's "in charge" of systemd in openSUSE and did a lot for a proper integration - and convinced upstream also in some cases to change their "we don't want to". -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/04/2012 09:43 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 4:10 PM, Andreas Jaeger <aj@suse.com> wrote:

...

...

Yes, and that's very good. But in 12.1, service status reporting was quite lacking with SystemD, and it was a SystemD shortcoming, not a packaging or training issue.

Can you give me an example so that we can compare with 12.2?

I'm planning to test 12.2 and let you know already. I just need to find the time.

...

...

I don't know yet whether it's been improved though, but if it hasn't, it should. Thing is, the people in charge of it were quite... opposed to it. For no reason other than "we don't want to". Hence all the griping. With such a predisposition, many (including me) feel uncomfortable leaving it as the only option to a very critical subsystem.

Perhaps it's such predisposition the thing that must change to improve SystemD acceptance.

I don't think you ever interacted properly with Frederic Crozat, who's "in charge" of systemd in openSUSE and did a lot for a proper integration - and convinced upstream also in some cases to change their "we don't want to".

I could dig the archives, but you're right, I got tired of the negative responses and just stopped reading the thread at the time (and skipped 12.1 as it was too troublesome for my setup). I'm sure things improved, and my kudos to Frederic for that. I'm just saying, it was a tough time that was imprinted on users' impression of SystemD.

Unfortunately you get serious testing and reports only after a release ;(

As far as I know, there's still no integrated solution to the vmware status reporting case (which is incidentally equivalent to a few services I run). Upstream's unwillingness to provide such a simple facility is quite misterious.

What exactly is the vmware status reporting case? Please show an example... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com> wrote:

...

What exactly is the vmware status reporting case? Please show an example...

I'm trying to google it and I can't find the vmware example (which I remember and does exist).

But I found a similar one that might ring a louder bell: AppArmor[0]

[0] http://www.digipedia.pl/usenet/thread/19341/39160/

Oh, yes, it wasn't vmware. My fault. It was LXC containers. Anyway, some service running that isn't a clear-cut daemon. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

As far as I know, there's still no integrated solution to the vmware status reporting case (which is incidentally equivalent to a few services I run). Upstream's unwillingness to provide such a simple facility is quite misterious.

What exactly is the vmware status reporting case? Please show an example...

I assume it's the systemd assumption that a service is a running daemon and that the status can be checked by checking on that daemon. Whereas, the status (and the shutdown) of a virtual machine service means to locate all running VMs and trigger them to shut down. For several VM products, there *is* no controlling process for the VMs. There are several other use cases that have similar properties. That was an issue in 12.1, don't (yet) know if this assumption changed in 12.2. The systemd proponents on this list responded "then this is no service". The systemv proponents told them "but it was before". Several small shouting wars started. (Well, not a real flamewar, not like the r.a.sf-lovers split, back in 1991. :-)) When some people (me included) brought that issue up for 12.1, we got shut down -- in particular, I was flamed several times by Christian Rodriguez with him _never_ answering the actual technical question how to approach a solution for this problem. For me the most frustrating problem was: I don't know if that behavior is just related to local openSUSE folks, or it is shared upstream, too. If it's the latter, it's troubling. If it's the former, I can ignore them and it's no problem. Actually, these discussions were the reason why we didn't upgrade to 12.1, just installed it on a few VMs to try it. I know of several companies who ditched openSUSE for that reason (meaning the attitude of folks here "this is not our problem, go away", not the technical migration problems, they are to be expected at such a change.) Case in point just in this thread: Carlos pointed out that official openSUSE documentation is still missing systemd documentation; Christian shouts him down. He obviously even didn't *try* to understand Carlos' point. (You did, I know.) And while you can have your quarrels with Carlos' stand, sometimes he can be quite some nuisance -- he works hard to *help* beginners in the forums and the mailing lists; what I have not seen the folks shouting him down here doing with the same energy there. Quite to the contrary, some people in this thread just told him he's not relevant because he's not a developer. Not good. When I would want a pure-developer-focused distribution, I would install Gentoo or Arch. Or go back to Slackware, where we all started in 1993. (Ran SLS before, which was better than compiling it all myself in 1992.) My 0.04 cents (adjusted for inflation). Enough ranting, back to programming... Joachim (not an openSUSE developer, I'm active upstream, and I use S.U.S.E. Linux since 5.something ;-)) -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 04/09/12 18:37, Joachim Schrod escribió:

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

As far as I know, there's still no integrated solution to the vmware status reporting case (which is incidentally equivalent to a few services I run). Upstream's unwillingness to provide such a simple facility is quite misterious.

What exactly is the vmware status reporting case? Please show an example...

I assume it's the systemd assumption that a service is a running daemon and that the status can be checked by checking on that daemon.

Whereas, the status (and the shutdown) of a virtual machine service means to locate all running VMs and trigger them to shut down. For several VM products, there *is* no controlling process for the VMs. There are several other use cases that have similar properties.

There might be no controlling process, but at least there should be some kind of notification that VM "foo" is going down/up/freeze etc. that's something up the vendor to provide..

The systemd proponents on this list responded "then this is no service". The systemv proponents told them "but it was before". Several small shouting wars started. (Well, not a real flamewar, not like the r.a.sf-lovers split, back in 1991. :-))

That's correct, controlling VMs directly with sysvinit do not really work either, it would seem to work though. if there is no particular process to talk, then the application is unmanaged, uncontained and may do whatever it pleases.

When some people (me included) brought that issue up for 12.1, we got shut down -- in particular, I was flamed several times by Christian Rodriguez with him _never_ answering the actual technical question how to approach a solution for this problem.

I am not flaming YOU, at the best I am attacking YOUR IDEAS. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 05/09/12 17:09, Claudio Freire escribió:

And there, Andreas, as I was saying, the whole problem lies.

After expressing a need for controlling VMs at startup/shutdown, the answer is usually on that tone. Ie: "You're wrong, you don't need it, you should ask someone else, stop bothering."... etc. No rationale provided, no alternative way of doing it, no nothing. Just a "NOT SO".

No, I am explaining the current state of things, with or without systemd. If you are using the libvirt daemon then you can control the VMs,without these kind of "directors" it is impossible for either init systems to control them in anyway other than "start". -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 7:44 AM, Jan Engelhardt <jengelh@inai.de> wrote:

On Tuesday 2012-09-04 14:12, 686f6c6d wrote:

...

+1 The claims to systemd being horribly broken all seem a bit FUDy to me. I can quite understand them, as it *was* horribly broken when 12.1

I was one of the (probably) few that had systemd (v17 I think) running on the day of the 11.4 release party. Was it broken? Not really, it just was in a state you would expect from being fresh outta factory without much exposure to the big public.

We might have different definitions then. Sure "horribly broken" might have been a bit harsh, but I've suffered for about nine months, trying to make autoyast and systemd play together. The ultimate issue in my case was one of outdated hardware requirements documentation, but in the course of it, I encountered at least three different problems with systemd: - systemd did not work with autoyast (needed a workaround for the install to succeed, bug was already reported). - systemd sometimes^tm brought eth0 up and down in an endless loop (bug was already reported but unfixed for a few weeks). - systemd, when using autoyast, failed (and still does in 12.2) to report the correct state of some services (ntp, for example; Uwe Gansert reported the bug happening for apache, I believe, after hunting it down). This and the fact that the sheer number of reported systemd bugs made it very hard and time-consuming to find out if a bug was already reported (and of course my little prior experience with systemd) made for a lot of headaches and seemingly wasted hours (and the money of my employer), so I stand by my arrogant opinion that systemd, when 12.1 was released, was, from a dumb users/admins point of view, broken and not tested well enough for a public release. (To a developer with all the knowledge to fix these problems with the snap of a finger that might feel different, but I just felt basically helpless. Not every user is a developer.) But, as I also said, I don't mean to badmouth openSUSE and I can understand you didn't like my choice of words. Over the course of the last months many of the bugs were fixed and (except the one issue mentioned above I already had experience with) I experienced no problems (yet?) with 12.2. -- Kind regards 686f6c6d / Christopher 'm4z' Holm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

The systemd proponents on this list responded "then this is no service". The systemv proponents told them "but it was before". Several small shouting wars started. (Well, not a real flamewar, not like the r.a.sf-lovers split, back in 1991. :-))

That's correct, controlling VMs directly with sysvinit do not really work either, it would seem to work though.

That's not true. For example, the VMware command "vmrun list" very much gives the list of running VMs to shut down, reliably. And it does so without a controlling process. I have several applications where one can asks on sockets which ones and how many are running. Without any controlling process. Similar use case. Btw, you just proved my point again, concerning communication style. Thank you. Joachim -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Joachim Schrod, Roedermark, Germany Email: jschrod@acm.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le jeudi 06 septembre 2012 à 01:57 +0200, Joachim Schrod a écrit :

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

...

The systemd proponents on this list responded "then this is no service". The systemv proponents told them "but it was before". Several small shouting wars started. (Well, not a real flamewar, not like the r.a.sf-lovers split, back in 1991. :-))

That's correct, controlling VMs directly with sysvinit do not really work either, it would seem to work though.

That's not true.

For example, the VMware command "vmrun list" very much gives the list of running VMs to shut down, reliably. And it does so without a controlling process.

I have several applications where one can asks on sockets which ones and how many are running. Without any controlling process. Similar use case.

I'm reading a lot in this thread about vmware and the fact systemd is broken regarding vmware initscript but I have yet to understand in what regard it is broken. Could you enlighten me a little more by giving test case ? Are you talking about "ExecStatus" (or equivalent in initscript) or of something else ? -- Frederic Crozat <fcrozat@suse.com> SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/5/2012 3:51 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 04/09/12 18:37, Joachim Schrod escribió:

...

Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

...

As far as I know, there's still no integrated solution to the vmware status reporting case (which is incidentally equivalent to a few services I run). Upstream's unwillingness to provide such a simple facility is quite misterious.

What exactly is the vmware status reporting case? Please show an example...

I assume it's the systemd assumption that a service is a running daemon and that the status can be checked by checking on that daemon.

Whereas, the status (and the shutdown) of a virtual machine service means to locate all running VMs and trigger them to shut down. For several VM products, there *is* no controlling process for the VMs. There are several other use cases that have similar properties.

There might be no controlling process, but at least there should be some kind of notification that VM "foo" is going down/up/freeze etc. that's something up the vendor to provide..

...

The systemd proponents on this list responded "then this is no service". The systemv proponents told them "but it was before". Several small shouting wars started. (Well, not a real flamewar, not like the r.a.sf-lovers split, back in 1991. :-))

That's correct, controlling VMs directly with sysvinit do not really work either, it would seem to work though.

Wrong if there is no particular

process to talk, then the application is unmanaged, uncontained and may do whatever it pleases.

Wrong, like any other program, it can only do what it was written to do. It CAN do whatever I wrote it to do. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le jeudi 06 septembre 2012 à 04:25 -0400, Brian K. White a écrit :

Saying "systemd supports init scripts" does not actually address the problem of status checking, and without status checking, you can not actually say it supports any services, or actions that aren't services, that need that.

And I've replied in another subthread about upstream who might implement support for ExecStatus in the future. -- Frederic Crozat <fcrozat@suse.com> SUSE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 20:52, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

Btw. in general rcXXX contains to work fine on openSUSE with systemd, the engineers took care that it works - instead of declaring it as obsolete etc. A couple of guys did take care that many of the ways you interact today with SysV init work the same way with systemd - that makes the transition easier...

rccrypto script has stopped working in 12.1 with systemd mode, they only work with systemv. With 12.2 I can not activate partitions in text mode because the prompt is only visible in graphic mode, and the script do not work. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJWg8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yjrQD/eGZyVHGtHyr58eggymoh9PS/ XIFHN4uhcqs8ks9HaKwA/2okfhPgyDiD4twQNuTIXBGOck7JqN1mSYk+QqCKIhoI =6cZL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-07 08:06, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le vendredi 07 septembre 2012, à 04:21 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

rccrypto script has stopped working in 12.1 with systemd mode, they only work with systemv. With 12.2 I can not activate partitions in text mode because the prompt is only visible in graphic mode, and the script do not work.

I think something like "systemctl start cryptsetup.target" should do it.

And how do you specify what device to mount? I'm talking of this syntax: rccrypto start cr_data_1 (I'll test your suggestion when I get back home) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJ6CAACgkQja8UbcUWM1zn7gEAkSpsSU5xC5/nBGvSmTBB4UI2 /DwQoI42AmAaQ0yt+DkA/jPRnS/CLn3PbrDCh0VBTZ0+QXMumyCBXRCDHP35VQfn =6Kye -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Vincent Untz <vuntz@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

Another sample: openSUSE rccrypto scripts, they do not work, and are not going to be repaired.

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way.

Or am I missing something?

Then rcstuff scripts should be updated to invoke that functionality, assuming it is indeed there and equivalent. Which, from what I remember of the vmware and status-check cases, was not the case. Why? Well, because sysadmins (and end users too) already have a large body of scripts (just to mention one thing) that they would rather not rewrite. It isn't nice to break all your user's scripts and tell them to take care of it themselves, when you can avoid it. If you don't want to, if you don't care, well... you're entitled not to care, as your users are entitled to be upset. But, really, it should be done, wrapping systemd functionality in familiar rcstuff scripts. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 08:30, Vincent Untz wrote:

Le mardi 04 septembre 2012, à 00:34 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

...

Another sample: openSUSE rccrypto scripts, they do not work, and are not going to be repaired.

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way.

Or am I missing something?

You can not manually mount an encrypted partition. There is a bugzilla on that (more than one, actually). I can not tell the exact details at the moment, I'm not at home and can not check my notes. If things should work differently, I'd like to be told how to do things now, instead of "feature not supported in systemd". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJVbsACgkQja8UbcUWM1y19gD/dOxSEKoD3RJ7fIRl06vsWSUH pYA9l+T3BaO6tAtvqscBAJ/CtOVMUbYBxgVNC8v4hMeMx7Oigag6wvriVeI+Htqp =/v4m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-07 07:42, Robert Kaiser wrote:

...

You can not manually mount an encrypted partition.

Actually, on this laptop, where I have an encrypted home directory, I can do

systemctl restart cryptsetup@cr_sda8.service

and similar commands to deal with (re)mounting that encrypted partition "manually", e.g. when I don't enter the password while booting and the mount times out.

It's not that it doesn't work, it just needs different commands.

(of which I was not told in the bugzillas) sda? Wasn't that naming deprecated? Is that syntax documented somewhere? Is this the same in 12.1 and 12.2? How do I create new such entries? I have, for example, encrypted DVDs. I believe there is a bunch of files and links to create, much more complex than before, with simple entries in fstab and crypttab. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJ6VUACgkQja8UbcUWM1ygRQEAif5OmmFdOI4DIwKb8S9nWv2+ 7rzyFk2bK6NOu2ahMlMBAJvKDIIQQAVVC/H0Wh65ZfmH2oGcfjkXHr+s/kgXwHUc =mA9E -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:42 AM, Robert Kaiser <kairo@kairo.at> wrote:

...

...

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way.

Or am I missing something?

You can not manually mount an encrypted partition.

Actually, on this laptop, where I have an encrypted home directory, I can do

systemctl restart cryptsetup@cr_sda8.service

and similar commands to deal with (re)mounting that encrypted partition "manually", e.g. when I don't enter the password while booting and the mount times out.

It's not that it doesn't work, it just needs different commands.

Does that work in a text console? Serial console? Remember the OP about rccrypto, systemd has trouble when there's no graphical way to prompt for a password. That's the problem, not the invocation sequence. That and making rccrypto issue the proper command (it shouldn't be hard). I think, though, this needs a bug number. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le vendredi 07 septembre 2012, à 12:16 -0300, Claudio Freire a écrit :

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:42 AM, Robert Kaiser <kairo@kairo.at> wrote:

...

...

...

It's simply because things work differently in systemd. The features provided by rccrypto scripts in sysvinit are also present in systemd, but just provided another way.

Or am I missing something?

You can not manually mount an encrypted partition.

Actually, on this laptop, where I have an encrypted home directory, I can do

systemctl restart cryptsetup@cr_sda8.service

and similar commands to deal with (re)mounting that encrypted partition "manually", e.g. when I don't enter the password while booting and the mount times out.

It's not that it doesn't work, it just needs different commands.

Does that work in a text console? Serial console?

Yes, it works in a text console. Did you try it? Cheers, Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 1:39 AM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:

...

Remember the OP about rccrypto, systemd has trouble when there's no graphical way to prompt for a password. That's the problem, not the invocation sequence. That and making rccrypto issue the proper command (it shouldn't be hard).

----- So how does systemd play with headless servers?

MS has told developers to start making sure that server apps can be controlled from the command line -- because the desktop isn't going to be there.

Well, I don't think it's such a serious problem. In that, I don't think it's a design flaw in systemd. Systemd, AFAIK, has support for external password prompting, and right now the most prominent of those would be plymouth. But it's in no way limited to plymouth, so I'd expect a solution to the headless thing being a serial/text-based password prompting component. IOW, it should be fixable without major systemd intervention. Probably without any intervention. But, it does have to be fixed. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday, September 04, 2012 00:34:17 Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-09-03 20:06, Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

3ware init scripts, HP proliant support pack scripts. There is plenty. Having said that, sofar I have not seen any compatibility issues except the learning curve in writing ones own systemd modules (or whatever they're called).

I prefer things to work directly, not me to have to do their work. Worse, systemD in openSUSE is still not documented:

<http://doc.opensuse.org/documentation/html/openSUSE/opensuse-referen ce/cha.boot.html>

It will be there tomorrow - the documentation was updated for 12.2, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/03/12 14:06, Per Jessen pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-09-03 18:56, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

To retain any semblance of credibility in the enterprise going forward, as well as to address the realities of limited resources, Domnique's recommendation that "the openSUSE Project should focus on SystemD as the one supported Init System" should be given serious consideration.

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

3ware init scripts, HP proliant support pack scripts. There is plenty. Having said that, sofar I have not seen any compatibility issues except the learning curve in writing ones own systemd modules (or whatever they're called).

Perhaps better documentation *with examples* would help. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

On 03/09/12 20:04, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

...

Perhaps better documentation *with examples* would help.

there are around 200 manpages plus literally hundreds of online examples.. what else do you expect then ?

A well-written, easy-to-understand HOWTO would be very useful. (I haven't looked for one). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.2°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 22:10, Sid Boyce wrote:

On 03/09/12 17:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:

Beat up on VMWare if it's nothing that can't be fixed locally, I do that to NVidia and VirtualBox - nicely. It's a nonsense to expect openSUSE to stay wedded to obsolescence because vendors are too lazy or don't care, adding complications when an upstream fix is probably a no-brainer.

Going to the source of the problem is the sane solution.

SUSE can do that better than me. Business listen to business partners, not to plain users. I expect openSUSE developers and packagers to be sensitive to their user base, not uppity. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFMQ0ACgkQja8UbcUWM1yDMwD8CY9GZW6V0+YBDgjzsaIRca3g 4jsewzwTMcUYTlcU7roA/2egpwYct/nfJXAFtbWsi+gJP8RTfwtgAdmPui6/bC77 =Az/x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday, September 03, 2012 18:59:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-09-03 18:56, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

...

To retain any semblance of credibility in the enterprise going forward, as well as to address the realities of limited resources, Domnique's recommendation that "the openSUSE Project should focus on SystemD as the one supported Init System" should be given serious consideration. Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

systemd handles LSB start scripts just fine - and I assume that they use LSB init scripts since that's what we support with both SysV init and systemd. So, no worries, Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 04.09.2012 11:16, Stefan Botter wrote:

Hi all,

On Tuesday, September 04, 2012 11:06:03 AM Andreas Jaeger wrote:

...

systemd handles LSB start scripts just fine - and I assume that they use LSB init scripts since that's what we support with both SysV init and systemd.

Sorry, but it doesn't. Have a look at cluster software like pacemaker or corosync, they rely on the status checks of the LSB init scripts. With systemd you cannot be sure about the result, as systemd somehow caches the results, and does not do a real test -> the cluster crashes.

As long as systemd does not _reliably_ replaces SysV init, stay with the *working* init.

It's a lie that sysv init would *work* - they require changes all the time and we want to stop that. After that you have 2 choices: fix your scripts or report a systemd bug (but I'm sure you already did the later). Greetings, Stephan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Hi Frederic, On Thursday, September 20, 2012 01:45:14 PM Frederic Crozat wrote:

Was a bug report opened for this issue (probably better to have it opened upstream) ?

No,

From what I understand, you are complaining on the fact that service status isn't relying on a "customized" logic, as it was possible with initscripts, but on "hard-coded" logic, based on PID or cgroup existence, right ?

I believe so. But to be clear: I do not care, if the init process is sysv-init or systemd, for the cluster software the init-scripts are sufficient - as long as they work. Far up the thread someone mentioned to get rid of the init script altogether, and that would break the actual functionality. Of course one can create custom resource scripts, but for ease of use the init-scripts worked out of the box. Greetings, Stefan -- Stefan Botter Network Manager Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Commercial registry: Amtsgericht Bremen, HRB 18117 CEO: Prof. Dr. Joachim Treusch Chair Board of Governors: Prof. Dr. Karin Lochte

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 11:06, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

On Monday, September 03, 2012 18:59:43 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Can it guarantee that services provided by third parties will remain working? For example, vmware start script.

systemd handles LSB start scripts just fine - and I assume that they use LSB init scripts since that's what we support with both SysV init and systemd.

I'll have to check that when I get back home. Status check is not reliable, I think. Some more samples: Oracle provides a broken jexec service. With systemv I could repair it, with systemd I have not tried. I don't know how systemd copes with a broken or non LSB script. Hylafax needed changes to inittab. Last time I heard, the package did not mention how to do the equivalent in systemd, and the openSUSE maintainer was not very happy about systemd. I did not understand what he said, something about quitting. Some users found ways to use hylafax with systemd, but I don't know if they are documented in the package or implemented somehow.

So, no worries,

I do worry. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJYBoACgkQja8UbcUWM1wW2QD/TTT/a9zUEQ5X8UgFNkoRgu/J JwPHXQTAfeBtsju7nUwBAI93UH4Gw6o5BoMGFgz6T9f9tHRHoJLfLAlR70p3vgIO =suVd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:08 PM, lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> wrote:

...

systemd is a fact of life for Fedora,

Exactly. It boots fast and just works. We don't.

Does it matter if it's SystemD itself or the distribution's use of it? If "SystemD on openSUSE" doesn't work for all use cases, dropping the only other viable alternative will mean trouble. On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 2:13 PM, lynn <lynn@steve-ss.com> wrote:

...

"when it is ready" it is a non-sense argument.

We've had the whole of 12.1. How much more testing do we need?

*If* sysvinit is to be phased out in the following release, I do agree that it should be deprecated right now (early on the release cycle), because it will need as much time as possible to fix everything that is currently fixed by "switch to sysvinit". However, I expect 13.1 to be unusable to many without sysvinit. Why? Because 12.1 and 12.2's way of fixing init problems in IRC, reportedly, has been "switch to sysvinit". I've read that on the list, I don't go to IRC. Anyway, bugs may have been fixed, but with that attitude, probably not enough of them. Ditching sysvinit won't change that attitude before 13.1, and 13.1 would be unusable to those experiencing the remaining bugs. Are you willing to have a "transitional release" such as that? Because that's what it will take, IMVHO, to have a workable SystemD-as-sysvinit-replacement. Before I go on bitching... I'll go and test 12.2 - I just hope I get time for that soon ;-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 3:03 PM, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

...

*If* sysvinit is to be phased out in the following release, I do agree that it should be deprecated right now (early on the release cycle),

Wasn't the use of sysvinit deprecated in 12.1 when systemd became the default?

Its use, not its maintainance. The proposal is to stop maintaining it. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 14:23 -0300, Claudio Freire wrote:

Are you willing to have a "transitional release" such as that? Because that's what it will take, IMVHO, to have a workable SystemD-as-sysvinit-replacement.

I thought 12.1 was a transitional release. SystemV scripts are managed by systemD. For example, ntp is a SystemV script, but this is what happens when it is run: # rcntp status redirecting to systemctl ntp.service - LSB: Network time protocol daemon (ntpd) Loaded: loaded (/etc/init.d/ntp) Active: active (running) since Mon, 03 Sep 2012 19:07:28 +0200; 58min ago Process: 1379 ExecStart=/etc/init.d/ntp start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) CGroup: name=systemd:/system/ntp.service └ 1416 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p /var/run/ntp/ntpd.pid -g -u ntp:ntp -i /var/lib/ntp -c /etc/ntp.conf My understanding is that a big source of the problems is trying to get both systems to work together. Having only one would remove that thorn. My stuff still has the older syntax. I need to get off my butt and update them... Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 20:13, Claudio Freire wrote:

Now you have 12.3+ or most likely 13.1 will be a different kind of "transitional". In 13.1, you won't have SystemV as a fallback, so if something breaks, users have to wait until it gets fixed. If the bug takes 2 years to get fixed, then users have to use another distro (or an old opensuse) in the meanwhile. That kind of transitional.

Absolutely, because some bugs solution is "we are not going to solve it". - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFMd8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1xSWgD9Gi/9C0EFbtfXpnVcUNgwEOp8 qgd/wAvDSnRxvYuHKYQA/28ZzEVQ8n+Gl7mLfBfoAgWAVjUrsKWX8h3yh8ddjxp0 =hW5/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Monday, September 03, 2012 20:10:24 Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 14:23 -0300, Claudio Freire wrote:

...

Are you willing to have a "transitional release" such as that? Because that's what it will take, IMVHO, to have a workable SystemD-as-sysvinit-replacement.

I thought 12.1 was a transitional release. SystemV scripts are managed by systemD. For example, ntp is a SystemV script, but this is what happens when it is run:

# rcntp status redirecting to systemctl ntp.service - LSB: Network time protocol daemon (ntpd) Loaded: loaded (/etc/init.d/ntp) Active: active (running) since Mon, 03 Sep 2012 19:07:28 +0200; 58min ago Process: 1379 ExecStart=/etc/init.d/ntp start (code=exited, status=0/SUCCESS) CGroup: name=systemd:/system/ntp.service └ 1416 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p /var/run/ntp/ntpd.pid -g -u ntp:ntp -i /var/lib/ntp -c /etc/ntp.conf

My understanding is that a big source of the problems is trying to get both systems to work together. Having only one would remove that thorn.

My stuff still has the older syntax. I need to get off my butt and update them...

We will continue to support that older stuff since those are LSB init scripts. The preference is that all openSUSE packages come with systemd service files. The thing is that in a couple of places we need to check which init system is running and then do stuff differently... Andreas -- Andreas Jaeger aj@{suse.com,opensuse.org} Twitter/Identica: jaegerandi SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany GF: Jeff Hawn,Jennifer Guild,Felix Imendörffer,HRB16746 (AG Nürnberg) GPG fingerprint = 93A3 365E CE47 B889 DF7F FED1 389A 563C C272 A126 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, 2012-09-05 at 07:26 +0200, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

ystem V was called like that because it was the fifth. It has nothing to do with V like Vendetta. Similarly, systemd has nothing to do with cup sizes,

I bet it does. Only the really astute see it and make the 'D' what it was always meant to be. Ha ha. Yours sincerely, Roger Oberholtzer Ramböll RST / Systems Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20 Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696 roger.oberholtzer@ramboll.se ________________________________________ Ramböll Sverige AB Krukmakargatan 21 P.O. Box 17009 SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden www.rambollrst.se -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/12 19:00, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 03/09/12 13:40, lynn escribió:

"when it is ready" it is a non-sense argument.

We've had the whole of 12.1. How much more testing do we need? OK, I know we're stuck with it and Frederik is a great guy who puts us along the right lines. But just at the moment, perhaps just at the moment we can't match the Fedora boot. Just at the moment of course. Let's take a step back until we can. Thanks, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 03/09/12 15:01, Roger Oberholtzer escribió:

Anyone else using openSUSE in mobile and embedded/diskless systems?

Not here but I am aware that systemd is being used in embeeded systems, recently in cars as well :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 03, 2012 at 08:30:46PM +0200, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 15:17 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

...

El 03/09/12 15:01, Roger Oberholtzer escribió:

...

Anyone else using openSUSE in mobile and embedded/diskless systems?

Not here but I am aware that systemd is being used in embeeded systems, recently in cars as well :-)

OOC, who else is using it in cars? Always goof to know of other folk doing similar things.

All major car manufacturers, minus one, are using Linux in their car entertainment systems, with some starting to use it also in their car control systems. For more details about this, come to the next Linux Automotive summit in a few weeks in England, or read the presentations given there online afterward. greg k-h -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 3:37 PM, Greg KH <gregkh@linux.com> wrote:

It's a requirement for cars running Linux to use systemd if they wish to abide by the industry-wide standards (i.e. GENIVI and the like).

A bit OT, but... ...why so? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Cristian Rodríguez <crrodriguez@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

A bit OT, but...

...why so?

I guess you expect your car to start working inmediately after powering it on ? and being reliable and robust when something goes wrong ? ;-)

None of that requires SystemD. In fact, I doubt SystemD can make it work "immediately", and "fast enough" is quite open to interpretation isn't it? As for reliability, there are reliable alternatives to SystemD. So... really, what feature other than performance is required by GENIVI that only SystemD fullfills? (I'm genuinely curious). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 4:23 PM, Dimstar / Dominique Leuenberger <dimstar@opensuse.org> wrote:

Google can help as well:

Under Compliance 2.0, GENIVI defines 29 mandatory components, 23 of which are explicitly stated, with a total of 67 components overall when adding optional features. Notable in 2.0 is the requirement for a component called "systemd" along with promotion of "AudioManager" to required status.

Well, the way I googled (which I did), gave me lots of unspecific answers, none of which mentioned systemd like that. Seeing it like that, though, is quite suspicious. I've never before seen standards mandating a particular software, just behavior. But... whatever. It's obviously impossible to argue for a systemd alternative when it's required by name. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

El 03/09/12 16:42, Claudio Freire escribió:

It's obviously impossible to argue for a systemd alternative when it's required by name.

That's because there are no sustainable alternatives to go forward.. but well.. you still have upstart.. but that is surely going down the drain soon as well. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 03/09/12 19:17, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

El 03/09/12 15:01, Roger Oberholtzer escribió:

...

Anyone else using openSUSE in mobile and embedded/diskless systems? Not here but I am aware that systemd is being used in embeeded systems, recently in cars as well :-)

The Raspberry Pi is using systemd happily. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Senior Staff Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

Hi all,

I know, a radical proposal, BUT a bunch of reported issues in 12.2 are around systemd/sysinitV, both trying to do the same thing, differently.

It would clearly help the distribution to commit clearly to ONE init system only, officially and formally ditching the other.

Specialization worked great for dinosaurs... and Suse's mascot is the lizard... but that worked for the dinosaurs might not be a good thing to work in the same way for SuSE.

This allows for proper testing of ONE Init System and fixing issues around it.

---- It also allows for a less diverse software environment -- one that will be less resilient in the face problems and easier to attack and fail. Single point failure great for attackers, and bad for those who value 99.999. If systemV hadn't been on 12.2, I would have been hosed likely for weeks trying to figure out the problem. As it was, I was down for maybe 15 minutes while I put systemV initd back in place. You going to guarantee me a similar backup plan in 12.3? Until you can guarantee it will work the first time in < 15 minutes on my setup.., think about keeping a backup in place. Otherwise you are looking a deliberate attempt to sabotage people's systems with an upgrade. That would be great helping suse go the way of the dinosaur. Is that your intention? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----Original Message----- From: "Claudio Freire" <klaussfreire@gmail.com> Sent: Thursday, September 6, 2012 9:34pm To: "Linda Walsh" <suse@tlinx.org> Cc: opensuse-factory@opensuse.org Subject: Re: [opensuse-factory] Re: Proposal for 12.3--think redundancy -- it is needed On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:21 PM, Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote:

...

This allows for proper testing of ONE Init System and fixing issues around it.

---- It also allows for a less diverse software environment -- one that will be less resilient in the face problems and easier to attack and fail.

Single point failure great for attackers, and bad for those who value 99.999.

Everybody knows I'm for keeping sysvinit, but, in software, the opposite of what you said there is usually true. More diversity means more attack surface which means less security. I have to agree there with Dominique, committing to one init system would help strengthen that system, but as of 12.1, systemd was not up to the task. It may get there by 12.3, or perhaps later, if upstream starts to be more cooperative. Big if. The result of making systemd the only option in openSUSE, IMO, will be some amount of emigration. Maybe massive, maybe not. I don't really know. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org ----------------------------------- That's not really true, or at least it's not as simple as that. The more pieces you have in a chain where all pieces must work or else the whole does not work, then yes the more pieces the less robust. If you are talking attack surfaces then yes the more services and other interfaces you provide on the same single host, the more likeley to be breached. But she is talking about diversity, which is kind of like backups, which are ultimately the only sure form of security. You can't prevent any particular thing from being broken no matter what you do. All you can do is have 5 copies of it scattered around in different places and taking different forms so that _when_ one is lost, at least the others will be there. Anyone knows by now about biodiversity, vs lack of it. If there is only one breed of corn, then it doesn't matter how awesome Monsanto made it, sooner or later _all_ corn will disappear overnight. The only protection from losing all corn from the planet is the fact that there is not just one identical breed of it. Similarly expand "corn" to "vegetables" or "plants" or "food". Even if something wipes out all corn, or even all grasses, there will still be potatoes and peppers etc. If we all end up running the exact same version of linux kernel, init, bash, etc, then no matter how awesome they make those things by virtue of their incredible importance and the lack of any diversions or distractions in any alternatives, they will still be susceptible to exploits, and thus, everyone on the planet will be susceptible to the exact same easy exploit all at once. Ever since people realized that the world was no longer safe to run telnet on, and ssh was invented with no other purpose but to be unbreakably secure, the gold standard in secure. Every day right now today on the very latest version of openssh, and every day for years, ssh is actually the single most problem causing service on my boxes. It's constantly attacked, and sometimes successfully to one degree or another. The only way I can prevent it, is to actually close it down enough that it's no longer useful. We're not talking successfully guessing poor passwords by users. As far as I can tell that's actually the one thing that hasn't happened. There is only one sshd for all intents. A few others exist but even on the commercial unixes everyone uses openssh. It doesn't lack for developers, and it doesn't suffer from fragmentation and developers wasting time working on other sshd's instead of making the one true one better. I used to run pretty ancient sco systems right on the net, didn't even have ssh just telnet, and actually never had a problem on any of them, because all the attacks that came at it were designed to break IIS and Apache and run on Windows or Linux. You could say that was just security by obscurity, which we all know is a fallacy. Except for 10 years all those systems ran while others got breached or crashed. That's not a fallacy that's a done deal. So it's also an example of the protection of diversity. When the recent java exploit came out, it didn't affect me, I don't happen to use the very popular java. When the ssl attack came out a little earlier, that also didn't affect me because I don't happen to use ssl except in a few corner cases. These are industry standard things that everybody agrees are the state of the art and the only way to go, and so practically everyone uses them. And so when they have a problem it affects everyone, all at once. Diversity is like any other form of backup, redundancy, distribution (vs centralization). It's overhead, which looks like inefficiency, but it's the only way to avoid periodically losing everything. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/6/2012 11:32 PM, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 11:59 PM, <brian@aljex.com> wrote:

...

So it's also an example of the protection of diversity. When the recent java exploit came out, it didn't affect me, I don't happen to use the very popular java. When the ssl attack came out a little earlier, that also didn't affect me because I don't happen to use ssl except in a few corner cases. These are industry standard things that everybody agrees are the state of the art and the only way to go, and so practically everyone uses them. And so when they have a problem it affects everyone, all at once.

Diversity is like any other form of backup, redundancy, distribution (vs centralization). It's overhead, which looks like inefficiency, but it's the only way to avoid periodically losing everything.

This is only relatively true (and I say relatively as in arguably) at large scales.

In my home computer, or in my datacenter, I want thoroughly tested software, not software I *know* will be faulty and will force *me* to do the testing. It's a matter of roles. I'm a developer, but not always a developer. Sometimes I'm a user. If my datacenter breaks (any component of it), then I've got a problem. Even though some other company may take my business and the economy still spins, I lost my business.

Thoroughly tested is merely a good thing, not certain safety. The only software that ever existed, or ever will exist, is known faulty. Anyone who tries to pretend that isn't a fact of life is either intentionally dishonest or unintentionally incompetent. As for init vs systemd, init is faulty too. The saving grace there is it's very small and simple and old as the hills, used and bugfixed for a long time with no new features added for a long time. All those things make it a safer bedrock. The fact that it actually does very little is also what makes it more useful and more flexible. By doing almost nothing itself, leaving that to the scripts, the scripts then can handle anything without having to know ahead of time what new ever changing needs will arise and provide some explicit facility for them. I actually wouldn't mind some progress and a more featured init, even though it must needs come with a decrease in stability. I mostly just mind the loss of functionality. That's a downgrade. If my car were to be traded for something that can go forward using only a teaspoon of water per month, and included a blessing from the pope guaranteeing no crashes or heaven for all occupants in the event of a crash, and could no longer go in reverse at all, that wouldn't exactly be a change I could tolerate. As much as I'd like that free forward travel, the pope blessing is utterly valueless to me, and I simply need to go in reverse sometimes. That car still has a use. It's worth making special forward-only roads and forward-only parking lots just to take advantage of the freedom from gasoline. But _I_ have to back out of my driveway and countless other parking spaces and occasionally get out of the way of an oncoming fire truck or such. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 06 Sep 2012 18:21:33 -0700 Linda Walsh <suse@tlinx.org> wrote: <snip>

As it was, I was down for maybe 15 minutes while I put systemV initd back in place.

You going to guarantee me a similar backup plan in 12.3?

Until you can guarantee it will work the first time in < 15 minutes on my setup.., think about keeping a backup in place. Otherwise you are looking a deliberate attempt to sabotage people's systems with an upgrade.

That would be great helping suse go the way of the dinosaur. Is that your intention?

Hi Interesting concept.... Today I packaged up iodine with systemd startup it was a lot easier than fluffing around with copying the skeleton and adding all the stuff in that is needed. Maybe it might be easier for you (and others) to report what specific init scripts are the issue via bugzilla, then folks can work on getting them functional for the next release. -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.6-2.10-desktop up 0:35, 3 users, load average: 0.03, 0.18, 0.21 CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 22:39:49 -0300 Claudio Freire <klaussfreire@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Malcolm <malcolm_lewis@bellsouth.net> wrote:

...

Interesting concept.... Today I packaged up iodine with systemd startup it was a lot easier than fluffing around with copying the skeleton and adding all the stuff in that is needed.

Maybe it might be easier for you (and others) to report what specific init scripts are the issue via bugzilla, then folks can work on getting them functional for the next release.

Thing is, systemd is far easier for the easiest, most common case, difficult for the unusual, and impossible for the strange case.

For sure, I am, but a humble packager, but do you have an example of an unusual and impossible init script?

While sysvinit was complex overall, it wasn't limiting.

When systemd stops being limited, I'll stop bitching and bite the bullet ;-)

I've found it fun to play with my limited knowledge I have htop, sec and zram running with it ;) -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.6-2.10-desktop up 1:34, 3 users, load average: 0.20, 0.11, 0.12 CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sat, 08 Sep 2012 02:41:10 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

For sure, I am, but a humble packager, but do you have an example of an unusual and impossible init script?

Hylafax?

Looking at your forum posts about it and with what I've learned it shouldn't be much of an issue to fix. I might dig out an old fax modem that's in storage and look at it at some point.

vmware status?

Talk to the folks at vmware, I've started using qemu-kvm.... -- Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890) openSUSE 12.2 (x86_64) Kernel 3.4.6-2.10-desktop up 1 day 0:50, 3 users, load average: 0.17, 0.21, 0.25 CPU Intel i5 CPU M520@2.40GHz | Intel Arrandale GPU -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/03/12 12:30, Carlos E. R. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

Agreed. We should ditch systemd and return to systemv.

I agree with this. :-) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 09/03/12 13:23, chrysippus@operamail.com pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

...

On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote: Agreed. We should ditch systemd and return to systemv. I agree with this. :-)

What particular purpose do you envision straying further from the mainstream, and integration and compatibility with other distros, will benefit & serve?

We'll stop being lemmings and merely jump off the cliff because other distros are. Make systemd a _dropin_ replacement for sysVinit meaning it works for all system services at boot or keep sysVinit until it does. Has everyone forgotten all the bitching that took place when KDE4.x for forced upon us before it was ready? Just my 3 cents. -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/09/03 18:49 (GMT+0100) Alin M Elena composed:

http://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/dusautoy/Jenny's%20Scans/Sexy%20Maths/Times2-20090429-Pushing-the-lemming-theory-over-the-edge.pdf

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20030714.html -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012, at 10:34 AM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

We'll stop being lemmings and merely jump off the cliff because other distros are.

You've seemingly assumed that anyone's advocating jumping off a cliff. There's a compatibility layer in place NOW, for both 12.1 & 12.2 that enables coexsistence. Iiuc, Dominique's proposal, which I support, is for 12.3+. Hardly a cliff. And better a lemming than an ostrich, in any case. 'ditching' systemd, given the realities of its development and deployment, and the limited resource @Opensuse, will cause harm to this distribution and its community. I find it unfortunate that it's being advocated. C. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:

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We advocate it because systemd causes problems that nobody solves.

Which the proposal as such was not denying; only underlying: Let's ditch SysV and put the needed resuorces into ONE init System, not distracting from the actual efforts. In fact: that's also the reason why this proposal so EARLY in the stage of 12.3: it gives TIME to do the right things, collect all the needed and missing pieces, and make a rock solid 12.3, as openSUSE deserves to be. Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 00:50, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

I only mean that *until* systemd can be used with the same level of use that sysVinit has we keep sysVinit.

Absolutely. If we have to have only one, then let it be systemV, because it simply works. Otherwise, both. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFNJsACgkQja8UbcUWM1zqWAEAicK7/l+drQSJ8E1KdCTeJ8lM 9+EsQ42xNBCotfQ14LAA/03FXTozdYfdIrye0B0EiLeeG1LlGtZQcqNyWHZRGYAM =i3t6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 01:03, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:

On 09/03/12 18:52, Carlos E. R. pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

To clarify my stance.

Since it will come to pass that sysVinit will go away I *am* all for it, just don't forces upon the masses _until_ it works flawless.

Ok, so let them do the testing, and leave us in peace. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFOKUACgkQja8UbcUWM1xkWgD/bR2J+vmlHIbIA/+kO+5qqKYn UGeNbssFb23QMMlgOl8A/AhndUoT6APjeY0vlw9SrfzUCokr84plfO9yeTKJMtgk =dhfd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting "Carlos E. R." <carlos.e.r@opensuse.org>:

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Ok, so let them do the testing, and leave us in peace.

Carlos, sorry, but you're stepping out here. This is the Factory list, where we discuss the future releases of openSUSE, which at this moment version 12.3 As much as I (we) value your contributions by helping the users in the forums, of which you do a marvelous job: don't forget that THIS List is for 'future releases'. Of course the goal is to have it working. But have you read the initial statement? We have a better chance of getting one fully integrated system fully working as opposed oif trying to make the same for two... Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/09/03 13:34 (GMT-0400) Ken Schneider - openSUSE composed:

chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

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On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote:

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Agreed. We should ditch systemd and return to systemv. I agree with this. :-)

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What particular purpose do you envision straying further from the mainstream, and integration and compatibility with other distros, will benefit& serve?

We'll stop being lemmings and merely jump off the cliff because other distros are.

Make systemd a _dropin_ replacement for sysVinit meaning it works for all system services at boot or keep sysVinit until it does.

Has everyone forgotten all the bitching that took place when KDE4.x for forced upon us before it was ready?

Just my 3 cents.

+10 Along the same lines, Grub2 wasn't/isn't ready to be default either. I just did my first openSUSE 12.2 installation without disallowing its use. The Grub2 menu came up in "glorious" white on black instead of a GFXmenu, and with the default stanza's cmdline option changes I made during installation all disposed of except one: What I left in the cmdline options box during installation: ipv4only=1 noresume splash=verbose video=1152x864@75 vga=794 3 [EOL] DEFAULT_APPEND= the installer put in /etc/sysconfig/bootloader: noresume video=1152x864@75 resume=/dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST340014AS_3JXB83BW-part8 splash=silent quiet showopts" What's in /boot/grub2/menu.cfg: root=UUID=e88f4eec-305c-495a-8801-4ed97827e68e noresume video=1152x864@75 resume=/dev/disk/by-id/ata-ST340014AS_3JXB83BW-part8 splash=silent quiet showopts Actual firstboot cmdline (I edited somewhat at boot): BOOT_IMAGE=/boot/vmlinuz-3.4.6-2.10-desktop root=UUID=e88f4eec-305c-495a-8801-4ed97827e68e noresume video=1152x864@75 noresume vga=794 3 Corresponding kernel line I use in realboot's menu.lst showopts root=LABEL=st40root ipv4only=1 noresume splash=verbose video=1152x864@75 vga=794 3 [EOL] -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2012/09/03 16:38 (GMT-0300) Cristian Rodríguez composed:

Felix Miata composed:

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Along the same lines, Grub2 wasn't/isn't ready to be default either.

We are talking about systemd, not grub.

Broadly speaking the discussion is about replacing another very important mature product or system component with an immature and/or unpolished putative replacement. Grub2, KMS, KDE4 & systemd are or were all alike in this manner. When decisions to change important paradigms are made it's generally known in advance to be change that requires a disproportionate amount of resources to implement. Complaining about "limited" resources is out of place - the problem was expected at the outset. New does not automatically equate to better. Too often opposite turns out to be the case when hindsight proves implementation turned out to be premature. My hope is that someday there will be a release with no major changes, where development resources are focused on eradicating bugs and polishing away installation and UI impediments, something that 99.7% works as delivered rather than requiring updates the very day it's announced as an official release. -- "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 2012-09-03 at 16:24 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

When decisions to change important paradigms are made it's generally known in advance to be change that requires a disproportionate amount of resources to implement. Complaining about "limited" resources is out of place - the problem was expected at the outset.

The fact that systemd becomes a rather big defacto standard was also to be expected... we could have missed it entirely.. and be way out of the loop now

New does not automatically equate to better. Too often opposite turns out to be the case when hindsight proves implementation turned out to be premature.

Not having resources to invest, and pulling at two ends, surely does not help the situation, does it? Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 23:34, Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

I don't know, but the fact that so many thousands are using and appreciating openSUSE with systemd speaks volumes from an observational standpoint here. And I think that if the sysinitv holdouts want to win their case, they have to frame it in the context of how it is/could be negatively affecting so many people rather than how it affects just them and their unique implementation of openSUSE.

Considering the massive adoption rate of systemd across the board, I would assume that systemd being dysfunctional would mean there would correspondingly be a mass defection from Linux in general, and I'm not seeing that anywhere.

How do you know that for a fact? How do you know how many are using 12.1 with systemv as a solution to the problems they find with systemd? Have you counted them? - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFNhsACgkQja8UbcUWM1ymLwD+Mkqx9PUHjPOnKilH6aVHXniq aMkdPXMT8oycBqDOJ0gA/3iA0Cg49XKmL+QCPa8iIzrBYY8CotvIq3745u9QmrFn =OM4r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Tuesday 04 of September 2012 07:39EN, C wrote:

If there are enough supporters of sysinitv, then... volunteer to maintain it. There are no roadblocks preventing you or anyone else from setting up a community repo and using the openSUSE build service to build and maintain the old stuff.

It would be nice if it was like this. But it is not the case with systemd. Its upstream not only does nothing to make coexistence easier, it actively tries to make it more difficult and openly plans to make it as difficult as possible. With a project like this, you can only let yourself be assimilated or refuse it. I certainly vote for refuse. Systemd doesn't give me anything which would be really useful and couldn't be achieved without it. On the other hand, it makes configuration less flexible and diagnostics more complicated. Few seconds of boot time (if at all) are not worth it. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-04 10:21, Michal Kubeček wrote:

On Tuesday 04 of September 2012 07:39EN, C wrote:

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If there are enough supporters of sysinitv, then... volunteer to maintain it. There are no roadblocks preventing you or anyone else from setting up a community repo and using the openSUSE build service to build and maintain the old stuff.

It would be nice if it was like this. But it is not the case with systemd. Its upstream not only does nothing to make coexistence easier, it actively tries to make it more difficult and openly plans to make it as difficult as possible.

With a project like this, you can only let yourself be assimilated or refuse it. I certainly vote for refuse. Systemd doesn't give me anything which would be really useful and couldn't be achieved without it. On the other hand, it makes configuration less flexible and diagnostics more complicated. Few seconds of boot time (if at all) are not worth it.

Absolutely. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBJU8wACgkQja8UbcUWM1x2PAD/SmMZ5S0JVjK2/K9BOgMGs+tz 8ycQLRTHZ3dC+xxYjr4A/jnDj7RWPQGmDJfUZIawStQRY71LdMgI8xuCke+DghqL =+V7T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Friday 07 of September 2012 03:56EN, Carlos E. R. wrote:

I really hope that systemD is integrated in SLES soon so that the heavy weights of the industry start to look at it. I'm tired of doing the testing for them.

That's because you aren't one of the people who will have to handle the bugs if it does. I am so I hope for the exact opposite. Michal Kubeček -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Bryen M Yunashko wrote:

Number of people concerned: I see the argument that openSUSE is simply not ready for systemd. Mainly I see it from a handful of people and while I do not dispute the legitimacy of your concerns, why aren't the concerns more widespread when there are thousands of openSUSE users and servers out there?

One reason is that most of those don't hang out here on opensuse-factory nor on opensuse-general, another that most production servers were most probably not upgraded to 12.1+systemd. (mine certainly weren't).

One argument against this group has basically been "because you don't know how to use systemd." Is this a fair defense in favor of systemd? Is there a difficult learning curve that needs to be addressed for a few people? Are there legitimately bugs that can have widespread effect? Are the bugs more corner-case? What are you doing differently from the rest of the world, so to speak?

It is an 80/20 situation as usual - 80% of the people never even notice systemd because they only use 20% of their system(s). The other 20% do stuff the 80% don't even know about.

I don't know, but the fact that so many thousands are using and appreciating openSUSE with systemd speaks volumes from an observational standpoint here.

Well, at least it is an indication that systemd works very well for 80% of the cases. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (21.5°C) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Quoting "Brian K. White" <brian@aljex.com>:

The real fix would be if the systemd authors just weren't such inconsiderate dicks that insist working with systemd has to come at

Sorry, Brian, but could you please stop personally attacking and insulting people on this list? If you have a problem with the author, sit in a room with him and tell him your opinion. This kind of language is not needed on the list(s). Dominique -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am Donnerstag, 6. September 2012, 03:22:49 schrieb Mark Gray:

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 3:13 AM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar <DimStar@opensuse.org> wrote:

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Quoting "Brian K. White" <brian@aljex.com>:

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The real fix would be if the systemd authors just weren't such inconsiderate dicks that insist working with systemd has to come at

Sorry, Brian, but could you please stop personally attacking and insulting people on this list? If you have a problem with the author, sit in a room with him and tell him your opinion. This kind of language is not needed on the list(s).

I think what we are experiencing is a language/culture mismatch - what may be perfectly acceptable to German ears is extremely rude and dismissive to native English speakers.

I'd say it's rather the other way around. If it's ok to German ears it's most certainly ok to English speakers, not the other way around. The overusage of f***ing or xyz-nazi are two examples. Brian is off by a lot to all kinds of ears I know, certainly German. If the netiquette of this list was enforced most of that kind of language would be gone.

I also have found the attitude of the systemd people to be way out of line, and counter productive.

Everybody is entitled to have an opinion as long as there is a technical reason to it (since this is a technical list) and as long as the wording is acceptable. Sven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-03 22:24, Felix Miata wrote:

My hope is that someday there will be a release with no major changes, where development resources are focused on eradicating bugs and polishing away installation and UI impediments, something that 99.7% works as delivered rather than requiring updates the very day it's announced as an official release.

+100 - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBFNQ8ACgkQja8UbcUWM1wuJQD/YEJUm0yPh/pFst8kjAGoZVAo jjUdshq6JD+k5a+ueIgA/3iA13o9fJb+h8IqJ27TKqvBDA7zhY3DYmVNRmg37bID =sMVK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Le mardi 04 septembre 2012, à 08:26 +0200, Vincent Untz a écrit :

Le mardi 04 septembre 2012, à 00:54 +0200, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

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On 2012-09-03 22:24, Felix Miata wrote:

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My hope is that someday there will be a release with no major changes, where development resources are focused on eradicating bugs and polishing away installation and UI impediments, something that 99.7% works as delivered rather than requiring updates the very day it's announced as an official release.

+100

I understand this wish, but I'm nearly sure it's not the wish of most of the active contributors, and I'm not convinced it'd be the wish of most of our users either...

Just to clarify, I'm not saying people want to have bugs and don't care about polishing. I'm saying that people want the major changes. Vincent -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 5:21 PM, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar <DimStar@opensuse.org> wrote:

I know, a radical proposal, BUT a bunch of reported issues in 12.2 are around systemd/sysinitV, both trying to do the same thing, differently. It would clearly help the distribution to commit clearly to ONE init system only, officially and formally ditching the other. This allows for proper testing of ONE Init System and fixing issues around it. Not having to worry for an alternative INIT System can only have it's advantages.

+1 The claims to systemd being horribly broken all seem a bit FUDy to me. I can quite understand them, as it *was* horribly broken when 12.1 was released-- but all systemd problems I have seen in 12.1 seemed to be caused by lack of enough loving (and testing), and all have been fixed eventually. Sure, systemd sucks, but it sucks considerably less than SystemV. Sure, things are done differently, but that does not make them worse at all. And the upstream docs are actually quite well written (if you ignore some of the nonsense and non sequiturs in the examples of the author(s).) And the man pages are wonderful. You just have to read them in order to appreciate the improvements systemd brings. (I'm not saying you all haven't read them, but it seems like some of you haven't even tried.) Once the introductory and high-level openSUSE docs are released, that gap will be closed as well. In case something really doesn't work, file a bug or fix it yourself. But maintaining both systems won't improve systemd quality, given the small number of contributors. -- Kind regards 686f6c6d / Christopher 'm4z' Holm -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 9/3/2012 1:23 PM, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

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On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote: Agreed. We should ditch systemd and return to systemv. I agree with this. :-)

What particular purpose do you envision straying further from the mainstream, and integration and compatibility with other distros, will benefit & serve?

Straying from the mainstream? Where is the systemd for _any other unix_ besides linux? It's full of dependencies on linux-only features. Systemd is what is straying from mainstream. -- bkw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 06/09/12 01:12, Brian K. White wrote:

On 9/3/2012 1:23 PM, chrysippus@operamail.com wrote:

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On 2012-09-03 17:21, Dominique Leuenberger a.k.a DimStar wrote: Agreed. We should ditch systemd and return to systemv. I agree with this. :-)

What particular purpose do you envision straying further from the mainstream, and integration and compatibility with other distros, will benefit & serve?

Straying from the mainstream?

Where is the systemd for _any other unix_ besides linux? It's full of dependencies on linux-only features.

Systemd is what is straying from mainstream.