[opensuse-factory] PHP - tales from the crypt - openSUSE Factory

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[opensuse-factory] PHP - tales from the crypt

Stephan von Krawczynski

8 May 2007 8 May '07

15:34

Dear all, please let me draw your attention to some problems with and around PHP. 10.2 delivers only PHP5 on the isos. One might think that this is completely sufficient as PHP5 is thought to be mostly compatible to PHP4 and earlier. We tried that, namely an upgrade from former suse with PHP4 to 10.2 with PHP5. We had to find out that almost all php scripts and applications used by our customers do not work with the PHP4-version implemented in PHP5. It is obvious that you cannot start talking to hundreds of customers about lots of scripts that they themselves do not understand - just downloaded them from some place. The reason I'd like to share this dead-end experience with you is to revive PHP4 in 10.3, at least. I found PHP4 for 10.2 on software.opensuse.org, which is great - and brings up a much bigger problem. The PHP people unfortunately managed to screw things up. It seems impossible at this time to install both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules in apache 2. Of course one might say "so what, use cgi interface instead!", but unfortunately that tilts even the basic security configured with "open_basedir". The whole thing is quite a mess... It is obvious that the PHP maintainers know the problems, because they continue to maintain both versions right now. It would be a great thing if PHP4 for 10.2/10.3 could be made working/installable together with PHP5, which is not the case right now, they are conflicting. Anyone here experienced in this field? -- Regards and thanks for the good work on opensuse, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

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Sylvester Lykkehus

8 May 8 May

16:32

Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

...

Dear all,

please let me draw your attention to some problems with and around PHP. 10.2 delivers only PHP5 on the isos. One might think that this is completely sufficient as PHP5 is thought to be mostly compatible to PHP4 and earlier. We tried that, namely an upgrade from former suse with PHP4 to 10.2 with PHP5. We had to find out that almost all php scripts and applications used by our customers do not work with the PHP4-version implemented in PHP5. It is obvious that you cannot start talking to hundreds of customers about lots of scripts that they themselves do not understand - just downloaded them from some place. The reason I'd like to share this dead-end experience with you is to revive PHP4 in 10.3, at least. I found PHP4 for 10.2 on software.opensuse.org, which is great - and brings up a much bigger problem. The PHP people unfortunately managed to screw things up. It seems impossible at this time to install both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules in apache 2. Of course one might say "so what, use cgi interface instead!", but unfortunately that tilts even the basic security configured with "open_basedir". The whole thing is quite a mess... It is obvious that the PHP maintainers know the problems, because they continue to maintain both versions right now. It would be a great thing if PHP4 for 10.2/10.3 could be made working/installable together with PHP5, which is not the case right now, they are conflicting. Anyone here experienced in this field?

While PHP4 is still widely used, I think it would be wrong to include both version on the iso's, especially considering you have the option to download and install PHP4 if that is your wish/requirement. On the topic of running both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules for apache, the only other option than CGI which comes to my mind, would be 2 instances of apache running, one with one version of PHP and mod_proxy, and one running the other version of PHP. I myself runs PHP4 as CGI. Since you mentioned the "basic security" configured by open_basedir, you should also be aware, that with PHP6, safemode will be removed. Best regards Sylvester Lykkehus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

17:31

Sylvester Lykkehus escribió:

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Since you mentioned the "basic security" configured by open_basedir, you should also be aware, that with PHP6, safemode will be removed.

open_basedir and safe-mode are different, they serve and slightly different purpose.. safe-mode is unfixable, it is broken by design and the only way to fix was removing it, it causes more harm tha good, open_basedir has limited value but is still useful..in PHP6 you can use it per application with ini_set('open_basedir', '/foo/bar'); as long it is equally or more restrictive than the one set "per dir" ( and this last one should be equally or mor restrictive than the one defined in httpd.conf or php.ini)

Sylvester Lykkehus

18:15

Cristian Rodriguez R. wrote:

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open_basedir and safe-mode are different, they serve and slightly different purpose..

safe-mode is unfixable, it is broken by design and the only way to fix was removing it, it causes more harm tha good, open_basedir has limited value but is still useful..in PHP6 you can use it per application with ini_set('open_basedir', '/foo/bar'); as long it is equally or more restrictive than the one set "per dir" ( and this last one should be equally or mor restrictive than the one defined in httpd.conf or php.ini)

Really ? I always thought open_basedir was a part of safemode. Doing a search on php.net on open_basedir leads one to the safemode page http://php.net/manual/en/features.safe-mode.php whish lists open_basedir in the "*Security and Safe Mode Configuration Directives*" table, right down under the big "Safe Mode was removed in PHP 6.0.0." warning sign. Best regards Sylvester Lykkehus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

9 May 9 May

06:28

Sylvester Lykkehus escribió:

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Really ? I always thought open_basedir was a part of safemode.

both are different things.

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"Safe Mode was removed in PHP 6.0.0." warning sign.

yes, it is already removed, in fact was one of the first prioritary things to in PHP6 (and the other was removing the infamous register_globals thingy.)

Stephan von Krawczynski

8 May 8 May

21:06

On Tue, 08 May 2007 18:32:50 +0200 Sylvester Lykkehus wrote:

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While PHP4 is still widely used, I think it would be wrong to include both version on the iso's, especially considering you have the option to download and install PHP4 if that is your wish/requirement.

Ok. that brings us to the fundamental question what a distribution is really for. We are using linux for about 10 years now. Very early we decided to switch to the SuSE distribution because it contained all parts necessary for setting up internet hosts. So you say: PHP4 is widely used (meaning a lot of people need it in production) but you don't want to include it in the latest distro. Does that really sound like a good idea to you, reading it again? Your argument can be taken for about any delivered application. Everybody could download apache and compile it, why do you include it? Compiling a distribution has a lot to do with comfort. It is pretty uncomfortable to let a lot of people do the same thing (remember, you said "widely used") only because the iso's don't contain what is needed. Even aptgetting on debian would be more comfortable.

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On the topic of running both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules for apache, the only other option than CGI which comes to my mind, would be 2 instances of apache running, one with one version of PHP and mod_proxy, and one running the other version of PHP.

Whenever we do software the first question is: what is the _best_ solution for the problem? We both know that there are always hacks, but we do know that the module setup is best. Everything else is only a more or less bad hack only needed because people created a situation broken by design. The PHP5/4 mess is nothing else, it is broken by design. There was no real good reason why "5" was not made standalone as a separate module to live beside PHP4. But now this horse is dead and a lot of people have to hit it, because some didn't think twice.

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I myself runs PHP4 as CGI.

Which basically means you will be driven to compile it yourself with 10.3, too. Really, where is your argument? You are even arguing against your personal needs, come on...

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Since you mentioned the "basic security" configured by open_basedir, you should also be aware, that with PHP6, safemode will be removed.

And "5" will end up as the next dead horse? Again no thoughts about the real world where things (read different versions) have to co-exist? I wish people could focus more on the heart of the matters. If you create something new, how does that force you to throw away everything older but still useful? It does not, plain and simple.

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Best regards Sylvester Lykkehus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

-- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

21:31

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Ok. that brings us to the fundamental question what a distribution is really for. We are using linux for about 10 years now. Very early we decided to switch to the SuSE distribution because it contained all parts necessary for setting up internet hosts. So you say: PHP4 is widely used (meaning a lot of people need it in production) but you don't want to include it in the latest distro.

I have not been clear ? PHP4 is reaching End of life.. including PHP4 again into the distribution will be a big mistake and a really bad product managment descision. how you expect we will support it for the next two years ?

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On the topic of running both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules for apache, the only other option than CGI which comes to my mind, would be 2 instances of apache running, one with one version of PHP and mod_proxy, and one running the other version of PHP.

huh ? what the hell are you talking about ?? There was no real good reason why "5"

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was not made standalone as a separate module to live beside PHP4. But now this horse is dead and a lot of people have to hit it, because some didn't think twice.

your rationale is plain wrong as it is based in the wrong assumption that mod_php is the only way "holy way" to do things.. ( you should not really run mod_php in a shared hosting enviroment..)

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Which basically means you will be driven to compile it yourself with 10.3, too. Really, where is your argument?

no you can always install php4-fastcgi from the buildservice ( till it is retired of course)

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And "5" will end up as the next dead horse? Again no thoughts about the real world where things (read different versions) have to co-exist?

the can perfectly coexist, I run PHP5, PHP6 and in some disgusting circustances PHP4 too in the same webserver at the same time with 0 (zero) problems.

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I wish people could focus more on the heart of the matters. If you create something new, how does that force you to throw away everything older but still useful? It does not, plain and simple.

You dont need to throw all old software, just upgrade it, and if it propietary, well.. get support for it, that's why you are paying for it..as I tld you before the average PHP4 app will work with litle or no changes (unless you dont know what are you doing, and that is not a PHP problem.) Currently mostly all big/massive php apps are PHP5 compatible, there is no reason to stay with PHP4 at all. now.. again. if you have an specific situation, tell me, I can help , meta-questions often get meta-answers.

Cristian Rodriguez R.

22:06

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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ed.

And "5" will end up as the next dead horse?

Probably, but is not time to worry about that, maybe in about 5 years or so.. dunno, but now **is** time to worry for PHP4 as it is going away this year.. software has a lifecycle and in 5 or 6 years your investment is already recovered and you can devote new resources into updating your applications, this happends all the time, and not only with PHP...( but is more notorius with PHP due to it's popularity) I would **love** to hear how we, openSUSE, can help you in the migration without intruducing PHP4 again.. do you need more documentation ? howto? is the online PHP documention not enough to do so ..I mean.. geez.. the changes are not **that** many...I have asked this very same question to many people and I never got a proper answer.. so I suspect people just want to use obsolete stuff till the end of time and cause unnecesarry workload on package mantainers.. You can also google for the redhat or ubuntu rationale about removing PHP4 from their distros and you will find it is pretty similar.. so no need to elaborate more.

Stephan von Krawczynski

9 May 9 May

13:57

On Tue, 08 May 2007 18:06:44 -0400 "Cristian Rodriguez R." wrote:

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Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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ed.

And "5" will end up as the next dead horse?

Probably, but is not time to worry about that, maybe in about 5 years or so.. dunno, but now **is** time to worry for PHP4 as it is going away this year.. software has a lifecycle and in 5 or 6 years your investment is already recovered and you can devote new resources into updating your applications, this happends all the time, and not only with PHP...( but is more notorius with PHP due to it's popularity)

I would **love** to hear how we, openSUSE, can help you in the migration without intruducing PHP4 again.. do you need more documentation ? howto? is the online PHP documention not enough to do so ..I mean.. geez.. the changes are not **that** many...I have asked this very same question to many people and I never got a proper answer.. so I suspect people just want to use obsolete stuff till the end of time and cause unnecesarry workload on package mantainers..

You can also google for the redhat or ubuntu rationale about removing PHP4 from their distros and you will find it is pretty similar.. so no need to elaborate more.

Ok, this is a must-answer situation for various reasons :-) 1) You probably misunderstood my point of view at least partially. I am not arguing about how fine PHP4 is and that it shall live forever. I am in no way interested in PHP<versionwhatever>. I am _only_ interested in setting up an environment for _users_ that do what users do. If they need some (php) application, they google until they reach a download link, click on it and expect the webservice (and thats my part) to run with whatever they downloaded. They have _no idea_ what php is and how it works. Explicitely they are not interested in versions - and (which bothers me) they are _a lot_. That means: you cannot talk to them for explaining something, because it is impossible to explain something to hundreds of people with complete lack of technical understanding. And of course I do not fix customer php scripts "on the fly", because that only leads to me being responsible. Change one byte of code and you are responsible. So, all that I expect from a current distro is that it covers the "market of applications". You can read everywhere in this thread that PHP4 is widespread, and up to today it is maintained. So it is _not dead_. Even if it were dead it still works. Why vote for removing something that is widespread, works for people and is maintained? 2) You cannot help me with a migration that is not mine. I only have to make sure that people's scripts have a working platform to run on. And I can tell you from our tests that less than 5% of the php-scripts running on our servers work with PHP5. There is no way to change that. Sure they will get less, but not significantly or even vanish over the next three years. 3) I am not really interested in what redhat or ubuntu do, if I were I would probably use them. If opensuse only does what the others do, why does it exist then? Shouldn't it be _better_, more _comfortable_ or cover a bigger "market" ? 4) Really, nobody expects here that you maintain a PHP4 package forever. The last official release for both PHP4 and 5 date 03. May 2007 which is 6 days back. The only thing I vote for is not to forget the _people_ out there. The majority of people cannot afford always using the latest piece of car, tv-set or software. The reasons are numerous, some don't have the money, others don't have the technical insight - and lets not forget: most don't _want_ to be geeks at all. They want to use software that is available on the net. And I cannot see what's wrong with that. Sometimes software business is really odd. Nobody would ever throw away his car only because it is 5 years old but still running ok, even if the manufacturer tells him to because there is a brand new one available with lots of cool new features. Why do you even try to argue like this for software? Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

21:27

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió: I am in no way

...

interested in PHP<versionwhatever>. I am _only_ interested in setting up an environment for _users_ that do what users do. If they need some (php) application, they google until they reach a download link, click on it and expect the webservice (and thats my part) to run with whatever they downloaded.

Most of those the click and download apps already works with PHP5.

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So it is _not dead_.

yes it is, more or less.

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Why vote for removing something

this discussin came up during 10.1 development, so you are late. ;P

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that is widespread, works for people and is maintained?

Our mission is to deliver a working system, that is manageable and does not cost gazillions of hours to developers.. developer time is a **limited** resource. using the same rationale..let's include 2 GNOMEs. 2apache versions.. Python 2.2 , 2,3 2.4 and 2.5 "just" for the apps that does not run in python 2.5... or well.. 3/4 GCC versions so people can compile broken code that does compile with GCC 4...

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that less than 5% of the php-scripts running on our servers work with PHP5.

Your numbers are wrong, most should work. you are doing something wrong in your configuration then, I have worked in real life,commercial, large PHP4->PHP5 migrations and Im sure that is wrong.

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3) I am not really interested in what redhat or ubuntu do,

It matters in this particular situation what others have done..too se how others are managing certain parts of their **products** (even corporate distros are following the same approach..)

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if I were I would probably use them. If opensuse only does what the others do, why does it exist then? Shouldn't it be _better_, more _comfortable_ or cover a bigger "market" ?

You are not understanding. this is about product managment, we cannot offer support for 2 years for a software that is actually having very small manteniance, with only critical or secuirty bugs fixed (and takes months to get a fixed version) and that will be officially abandoned ina few months. then people like you will post rants "how bad is the mantainance" or "bugs not getting fixed".. (not to mention that PHP4 does not work correctly on 64 bit systems either and you will find countless strange issues..)

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4) Really, nobody expects here that you maintain a PHP4 package forever. The last official release for both PHP4 and 5 date 03. May 2007 which is 6 days back.

yes and is very likley to be **one** of the final releases...

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Sometimes software business is really odd.

Yes it is, and unfortunately you have to deal with it. FYI, im thinking about providing a better but stripped down PHP4 package in the server:php repository but it will be removed from the repository the same day it's official EOL is announced (expected on the first days of 2008 or so), keep in mind that I will not fix stuff on it, and will only add secuirty fixes from time to time (very low priority), in any case dont expect that to happend soon ;)

Stephan von Krawczynski

10 May 10 May

15:39

Hello, I am answering only for the sake of making things clear for later readers of the list, the argument itself has reached its end.

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Most of those the click and download apps already works with PHP5.

And of course you checked that personally. Everytime somebody talks about "most of", "all of" or the like you cannot really get an answer how he checked that.

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So it is _not dead_.

yes it is, more or less.

more or less means some percentage between 0 and 100, depending on what you personally like to believe.

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Why vote for removing something

this discussin came up during 10.1 development, so you are late. ;P

I am not late, I am trying to upgrade since some major releases and found it was time to tell you the removal-decision was plain wrong.

...

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that is widespread, works for people and is maintained?

Our mission is to deliver a working system, that is manageable and does not cost gazillions of hours to developers.. developer time is a **limited** resource.

Then I have some great hint for you: immediately stop patching the kernel. I will never understand why we always have to replace the distro-kernels with vanilla kernel.org ones. This is really a useless timeconsumer.

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using the same rationale..let's include 2 GNOMEs. 2apache versions.. Python 2.2 , 2,3 2.4 and 2.5 "just" for the apps that does not run in python 2.5... or well.. 3/4 GCC versions so people can compile broken code that does compile with GCC 4...

Sorry, you missed the real point. There is no big enduser-download "market" for python scripts or the like. People dealing with that should really know what they are doing. We are - as stated earlier - not talking about 3 own scripts we are too lazy to rewrite. We are talking about end users that download and use stuff from the net that they _don't_ really understand. They cannot code and they _don't want to_. All they want to do is use stuff they are using for years without problems.

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that less than 5% of the php-scripts running on our servers work with PHP5.

Your numbers are wrong, most should work. you are doing something wrong in your configuration then, I have worked in real life,commercial, large PHP4->PHP5 migrations and Im sure that is wrong.

Really, I did not see you last week over here when we tried the migration. I really wonder how you are able to tell me something about data you never saw. Isn't that the root of the word pre-judice, judging something before seeing?

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3) I am not really interested in what redhat or ubuntu do,

It matters in this particular situation what others have done..too se how others are managing certain parts of their **products** (even corporate distros are following the same approach..)

This is a classical statement for a tech person. From a management point of view you would say that only copying others (be it good or bad) cannot be successful because the others are always ahead of you. You have to fight for a position where the others are copying what you do, only then you are ahead and lead the market.

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if I were I would probably use them. If opensuse only does what the others do, why does it exist then? Shouldn't it be _better_, more _comfortable_ or cover a bigger "market" ?

You are not understanding. this is about product managment, we cannot offer support for 2 years for a software that is actually having very small manteniance, with only critical or secuirty bugs fixed (and takes months to get a fixed version) and that will be officially abandoned ina few months. then people like you will post rants "how bad is the mantainance" or "bugs not getting fixed".. (not to mention that PHP4 does not work correctly on 64 bit systems either and you will find countless strange issues..)

There are countless strange issues in fetchmail, too (to name only one). Nevertheless nobody would throw it away. You cannot fix issues in acroread either, nevertheless you ship it, because the market demands it. We have not requested support for over ten years from suse, though buying every single release since august 1995. Most of the people we know did never request any support for it. All we expected to get was a compilation of useful applications. And we request nothing more right now, only including a known-to-be-useful application. I won't judge if that means that we are in fact not very interested in what you call product management. Maybe it means that your focus on support is a limited point of view. Maybe there are lots of people that you never heard of, I don't know. I can only speak for myself and at the end of the day, I am the guy sitting in front of terabytes of data that give a damn about your idea of "most of". Sorry if that sounds tough. -- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R.

02:05

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Wednesday 2007-05-09 at 15:57 +0200, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote: ....

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Sometimes software business is really odd. Nobody would ever throw away his car only because it is 5 years old but still running ok, even if the manufacturer tells him to because there is a brand new one available with lots of cool new features. Why do you even try to argue like this for software?

It happens also with cars and anything else. There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps, and finally only collectors can maintain those cars by making those spares by hand themselves. Obviously, when the manufacturer stop making the car, the dealers have to stop selling it - even if they are good cars and they work - for instance, the "beetle" or the "600". Same here with the PHP4. The developers (the car manufacturers) will stop maintaining it by year end; thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers). If you want to maintain it, you can do as the car collectors: do your own maintenance, or pay a special garage to maintain it for you (ie, pay your own developers). It's open source, after all... - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGQn4ItTMYHG2NR9URAmDqAJ9cl/Ldo+VDfTxC319vej6uNkv/igCeKTNa uuh1/vy4tgTqyV2R4BtdW7M= =0Kwx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

03:50

Carlos E. R. escribió:

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It happens also with cars and anything else.

Exactly..is called "product lifecycle" ;-)

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There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps,

if PHP4 were a car, I can say it is no longer manufactured and the last spare parts are in the way to the dealers, but they are not produced in serie but by small amounts from time to time.

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thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers).

following your analogy, is worth to mention that the "suse dealer" has supported "the car" for longer time than the other "major dealers" and is time to phase it out once for all because "the car" manteniance is causing techs trouble when they should devote their time improving the "new equivalent" model, that has **waaay** less problems and is supported by the manufacturer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

05:40

On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 11:50:46PM -0400, Cristian Rodriguez R. wrote:

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Carlos E. R. escribió:

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It happens also with cars and anything else.

Exactly..is called "product lifecycle" ;-)

...
There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps,

if PHP4 were a car, I can say it is no longer manufactured and the last spare parts are in the way to the dealers, but they are not produced in serie but by small amounts from time to time.

...
thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers).

following your analogy, is worth to mention that the "suse dealer" has supported "the car" for longer time than the other "major dealers" and is time to phase it out once for all because "the car" manteniance is causing techs trouble when they should devote their time improving the "new equivalent" model, that has **waaay** less problems and is supported by the manufacturer.

We still support it for: - SLES 8 (until November 2007) - SLES 9 (until around 2011) btw... Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

06:51

Marcus Meissner escribió:

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- SLES 9 (until around 2011)

that will be fun.. :-P

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btw...

yup I know is supported in legacy versions of SLES as well in SUSE 10.0 (till Oct afaik)

Stephan von Krawczynski

11 May 11 May

10:07

On Thu, 10 May 2007 07:40:22 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 11:50:46PM -0400, Cristian Rodriguez R. wrote:

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Carlos E. R. escribió:

...
It happens also with cars and anything else.

Exactly..is called "product lifecycle" ;-)

...
There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps,

if PHP4 were a car, I can say it is no longer manufactured and the last spare parts are in the way to the dealers, but they are not produced in serie but by small amounts from time to time.

...
thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers).

following your analogy, is worth to mention that the "suse dealer" has supported "the car" for longer time than the other "major dealers" and is time to phase it out once for all because "the car" manteniance is causing techs trouble when they should devote their time improving the "new equivalent" model, that has **waaay** less problems and is supported by the manufacturer.

We still support it for: - SLES 8 (until November 2007) - SLES 9 (until around 2011)

btw...

Ciao, Marcus

Now that really gives a kick :-) Basically we just found out that even the "we don't want to spend time for it for further support" argument is ridiculously false even within the company. Supporting it for _some_ version of the distro means somebody has to work and it means there will be patches for big issues. So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later). This is really a neat thread ;-) -- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Marcus Meissner

10:08

On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 12:07:14PM +0200, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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On Thu, 10 May 2007 07:40:22 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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On Wed, May 09, 2007 at 11:50:46PM -0400, Cristian Rodriguez R. wrote:

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Carlos E. R. escribió:

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It happens also with cars and anything else.

Exactly..is called "product lifecycle" ;-)

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There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps,

if PHP4 were a car, I can say it is no longer manufactured and the last spare parts are in the way to the dealers, but they are not produced in serie but by small amounts from time to time.

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thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers).

following your analogy, is worth to mention that the "suse dealer" has supported "the car" for longer time than the other "major dealers" and is time to phase it out once for all because "the car" manteniance is causing techs trouble when they should devote their time improving the "new equivalent" model, that has **waaay** less problems and is supported by the manufacturer.

We still support it for: - SLES 8 (until November 2007) - SLES 9 (until around 2011)

btw...

Ciao, Marcus

Now that really gives a kick :-) Basically we just found out that even the "we don't want to spend time for it for further support" argument is ridiculously false even within the company. Supporting it for _some_ version of the distro means somebody has to work and it means there will be patches for big issues. So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later).

This is really a neat thread ;-)

We just do not have it in _new_ products. So what is the issue? Ciao, Marcus --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Stephan von Krawczynski

11:13

On Fri, 11 May 2007 12:08:10 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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We just do not have it in _new_ products.

So what is the issue?

Why not make the most of the work that is done anyway? The issue is (to recall that again), that PHP4 is no part of 10.2/10.3 any longer although PHP5 is no real migration option for webhosters with countless customer scripts not working correctly under PHP5. -- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

11:21

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Why not make the most of the work that is done anyway?

huh ? the most work eh ? try yourself first. ;-) The issue is (to recall

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that again), that PHP4 is no part of 10.2/10.3

and will certainly continue this way, there are no plans to put PHP4 back into the distribution again evne more now that is going out of support.

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although PHP5 is no real migration

Really ? so why the top linux vendors (RHEL/SLES) "sells" php5 only nowdays ? because nobody buy it ? ;-) option for webhosters with countless customer scripts not

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working correctly under PHP5.

scripts that are easily fixable with none of very small amount of work.

Stephan von Krawczynski

14:26

On Fri, 11 May 2007 07:21:15 -0400 "Cristian Rodriguez R." wrote:

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Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Why not make the most of the work that is done anyway?

huh ? the most work eh ? try yourself first. ;-)

The issue is (to recall

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that again), that PHP4 is no part of 10.2/10.3

and will certainly continue this way, there are no plans to put PHP4 back into the distribution again evne more now that is going out of support.

Besides SLES9 as we heard earlier this thread.

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although PHP5 is no real migration

Really ? so why the top linux vendors (RHEL/SLES) "sells" php5 only nowdays ? because nobody buy it ? ;-)

I can't help your limited view of things done with the distro, sorry.

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option for webhosters with countless customer scripts not

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working correctly under PHP5.

scripts that are easily fixable with none of very small amount of work.

Really, Cristian, it makes no sense to repeat wrong statements over and over again. You have no idea of the scripts and you have no idea of the _number of scripts_ you are talking here. And that's why you have no idea of the amount of work in total to fix them and tell every single customer that you fixed them. Stay in your small world, be happy and drop the issue. And if you want to do quick patches that are needed fix rdesktop which is also broken for a significant amount of terminalservers in 10.2. I am off the list. -- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Patrick Shanahan

14:48

* Stephan von Krawczynski [05-11-07 10:28]: [...]

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Really, Cristian, it makes no sense to repeat wrong statements over and over again. You have no idea of the scripts and you have no idea of the _number of scripts_ you are talking here. And that's why you have no idea of the amount of work in total to fix them and tell every single customer that you fixed them. Stay in your small world, be happy and drop the issue. And if you want to do quick patches that are needed fix rdesktop which is also broken for a significant amount of terminalservers in 10.2.

Well, sir, you are unbending are resolute. You continue to claim that the sky is falling in the same manner of the young hatchling. Perhaps you should avail yourself of the offer from Cristian and provide an example script that you claim is incorrectable in a reasonable fashion and time rather than to continue to beat your head against the brick wall of progress, claiming a knowledgeable individual is really without such.

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I am off the list.

I'm sure you arrived at this solution after profound consideration. note: this post cc'd to you for your enjoyment. -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 OpenSUSE Linux http://en.opensuse.org/ Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

21:23

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Besides SLES9 as we heard earlier this thread.

someone pays for that. ;)

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Really, Cristian, it makes no sense to repeat wrong statements over and over again.

You will find my "wrong statements" reapeated in other places, by other people as reasons to justify not having PHP4, this is because Im not wrong ;-)

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And if you want to do quick patches that are needed fix rdesktop which is also broken for a significant amount of terminalservers in 10.2.

I have nothing to do with rdesktop, dont mix pears wth apples.

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I am off the list.

right.

jdd

10:23

Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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it means there will be patches for big issues. So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later).

This is really a neat thread ;-)

given the hard work of maintaining this, paying a small fee don't give me problem. use SLES/SLED 8/9 jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Cécile, esthéticienne à Montpellier http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

10:54

jdd escribió:

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Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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it means there will be patches for big issues. So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later).

This is really a neat thread ;-)

given the hard work of maintaining this, paying a small fee don't give me problem. use SLES/SLED 8/9

jdd

afaik you can't buy new SLES8 licenses nowdays..(that applies to SLES 9 as well IIRC)

Cristian Rodriguez R.

11:12

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Now that really gives a kick :-) Basically we just found out that even the "we don't want to spend time for it for further support" argument is ridiculously false even within the company.

What I presented here is my personal view of the problem , I dont talk for SUSE/novell, however if a problem is found in PHP, it will almost certainly pass, in any or other way by my hands (as Im one of most active contributors in this specific area) and I decided long time ago, that I'll **not** spend my time working, fixing or doing absolutely nothing with PHP4. it is not worth the hassle, I just want to let it die and dance on it 's grave at night. :) (unless of course someone pays me to fix it)

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Supporting it for _some_ version of the distro means somebody has to work and it means there will be patches for big issues.

of course, mmarek is still working on it.

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So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later)

some version is available in the buildservice and it will be retired on Nov 2007 IIRC.

Michal Marek

17 May 17 May

20:00

Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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On Thu, 10 May 2007 07:40:22 +0200 Marcus Meissner wrote:

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We still support it for: - SLES 8 (until November 2007) - SLES 9 (until around 2011)

btw...

Ciao, Marcus

Now that really gives a kick :-) Basically we just found out that even the "we don't want to spend time for it for further support" argument is ridiculously false even within the company. Supporting it for _some_ version of the distro means somebody has to work and it means there will be patches for big issues. So the only question left is if they are made available for the whole community _somewhen_ (maybe later).

Giving the sles9 php4 patches to the community is not a problem, so if there are volunteers to port them to the 10.0 php4 or something newer, just speak up. It would then be no problem to maintain the php4 package in the buildservice some time longer. Michal --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

jdd

10 May 10 May

07:32

Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Same here with the PHP4. The developers (the car manufacturers) will stop maintaining it by year end; thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers). If you want to maintain it, you can do as the car collectors: do your own maintenance, or pay a special garage to maintain it for you (ie, pay your own developers). It's open source, after all...

just a question: is SLES/SLED in the same situation?could be a reasonable solution if php4 is maintained in SLES jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Cécile, esthéticienne à Montpellier http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

07:35

jdd escribió:

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just a question: is SLES/SLED in the same situation?could be a reasonable solution if php4 is maintained in SLES

It is only mantained in SLES 8 and 9, SLES10 does not include PHP4.

Stephan von Krawczynski

11 May 11 May

10:00

On Thu, 10 May 2007 04:05:37 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." wrote:

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The Wednesday 2007-05-09 at 15:57 +0200, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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Sometimes software business is really odd. Nobody would ever throw away his car only because it is 5 years old but still running ok, even if the manufacturer tells him to because there is a brand new one available with lots of cool new features. Why do you even try to argue like this for software?

It happens also with cars and anything else. There is a moment when a car is no longer manufactured, but they still make spares. Then even spares are no longer made, then the spares in storage are spent, then the last users have to get used spares from the dumps, and finally only collectors can maintain those cars by making those spares by hand themselves.

Obviously, when the manufacturer stop making the car, the dealers have to stop selling it - even if they are good cars and they work - for instance, the "beetle" or the "600".

Same here with the PHP4. The developers (the car manufacturers) will stop maintaining it by year end; thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers). If you want to maintain it, you can do as the car collectors: do your own maintenance, or pay a special garage to maintain it for you (ie, pay your own developers). It's open source, after all...

I love your talking about this example, especially where you elaborated about the _owners_ of the already sold cars. Sorry, but you missed the topic (again). I am talking about people who already own and use the car happily, to stay in the picture. I cannot believe it is that hard to understand why it makes no sense to drop working stuff ... -- Regards, Stephan von Krawczynski --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

11:00

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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I cannot believe it is that hard to understand why it makes no sense to drop working stuff ...

If you someday did really made something big or seriuos enough with PHP4, you wouldn't define it as "working". ask someone who knows, they will tell you how broken it is.

Carlos E. R.

12:20

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The Friday 2007-05-11 at 12:00 +0200, Stephan von Krawczynski wrote:

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On Thu, 10 May 2007 04:05:37 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:

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Same here with the PHP4. The developers (the car manufacturers) will stop maintaining it by year end; thus suse (the car dealer) has to stop providing it because they can't get it upstream (the car manufacturers). If you want to maintain it, you can do as the car collectors: do your own maintenance, or pay a special garage to maintain it for you (ie, pay your own developers). It's open source, after all...

I love your talking about this example, especially where you elaborated about the _owners_ of the already sold cars. Sorry, but you missed the topic (again). I am talking about people who already own and use the car happily, to stay in the picture. I cannot believe it is that hard to understand why it makes no sense to drop working stuff ...

Ok, the analogy holds. I were the happy owner of a still working Seat 600 car - this car signified the car revolution in Spain, it is like talking of the W. Beetle or the Ford T here - I'd have to maintain it myself. It went many years ago out of production, even if customers wanted it a lot. Even now people want it, and I can see it on the streets: seldom, but some of them. I'd have problems finding spares; I'd have problems finding "leaded" gas; I'd have problems passing the ITV, the technical yearly inspection mandatory for cars over 10 years: test the brakes in the roller bed and the car is ejected out due to its low weight (and the test calls for braking from 100 Km/h when this car doesn't reach that tremendous speed). I'd have problems even with parking, because the car is small and the fender is low, so other cars would scratch my antique paint, or worse. And no cute features like air conditioning, of course. The analogy holds. You want to keep using a "relic", fine: but you will have to do it yourself. However, as you are talking of a webserver with clients, you should be using the SLES version with a five year cycle, and you would not have this problem, or not all of it. It's like joining an Antique Automobile Club with Repair Shop included. ;-) - -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76 iD8DBQFGRF+CtTMYHG2NR9URAsPmAKCRpO3dSryU0RGZreTDmbfqlVuaAQCfesrS QaOtwRAO+0gYzI9UIkTIq7g= =l0ix -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

8 May 8 May

17:24

Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Dear all,

please let me draw your attention to some problems with and around PHP. 10.2 delivers only PHP5 on the isos.

Exaclty and will stay that way.. PHP4 upstream supports end on Dec 31 , 2007. it is EOL. One might think that this is completely

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sufficient as PHP5 is thought to be mostly compatible to PHP4 and earlier.

There is no such thing.

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The reason I'd like to share this dead-end experience with you is to revive PHP4 in 10.3, at least.

See above.

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I found PHP4 for 10.2 on software.opensuse.org, which is great - and brings up a much bigger problem. The PHP people unfortunately managed to screw things up. It seems impossible at this time to install both PHP4 and PHP5 as modules in apache 2.

Dont, use fastcgi, you cannot run both 2 mod_php in the current setup.

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Of course one might say "so what, use cgi interface instead!", but unfortunately that tilts even the basic security configured with "open_basedir". The whole thing is quite a mess...

You secuirty relies on open_basedir ? wow, then you have a problem, open_basedir is just a layer of security, you should not realy on it as your only one..

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Anyone here experienced in this field?

Yes, Im pretty experienced. I mantain the whole server:php:* namespace, and Im sorry to tell you, you will need to upgrade now, or by the end of the year, the PHP4 packages in the buildservice will be retired on Nov 2007. ( if you want to compare.. Fedora repositories does not have PHP4 since Fedora 5, Ubuntu recently **removed** PHP4 from all their repos(in newer versiosn) RHEL5 /SLES10 does not support it either.. for your own good is time to move.. trust me I know perfectly what Im talking about.

jdd

17:30

Cristian Rodriguez R. wrote:

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Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Dear all,

please let me draw your attention to some problems with and around PHP. 10.2 delivers only PHP5 on the isos.

and if you did exactly say what are your problems, I know this CR guy is perfectly able to fix them (if possible/usefull) :-) thanks to him :-) jdd -- http://www.dodin.net Cécile, esthéticienne à Montpellier http://gourmandises.orangeblog.fr/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Cristian Rodriguez R.

17:46

Cristian Rodriguez R. escribió:

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Stephan von Krawczynski escribió:

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Dear all,

please let me draw your attention to some problems with and around PHP. 10.2 delivers only PHP5 on the isos.

Exaclty and will stay that way.. PHP4 upstream supports end on Dec 31 , 2007. it is EOL.

http://news.php.net/php.internals/start/29163

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Ubuntu recently **removed** PHP4 from all their repos

https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-February/023296.html I can help you if you have a **precise** migration question, asking about opensource applications PHP apps is pointless though, you just need to upgrade them(with fancy point and click upgraders) to the current versions and will almost certainly work. In general, most applications will work with minimal changes unless they make really heavy (ab)use of the PHP4 object model.

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participants (8)

Carlos E. R.
Cristian Rodriguez R.
jdd
Marcus Meissner
Michal Marek
Patrick Shanahan
Stephan von Krawczynski
Sylvester Lykkehus