David C. Rankin wrote:

On 05/24/2019 02:33 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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David C. Rankin wrote:

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All,

Where did the 'wheel' system group (GID 10) go?

afaics, it is still there, id 496.

With my net install there was none.

Also a net install here, just direct from the repo.

Here is what I had after install (I added wheel with groupadd)

Here is mine, for comparison: gaston:~ # cat /etc/group root:x:0: shadow:x:15: trusted:x:42: users:x:100: messagebus:x:499: nogroup:x:65533:nobody nobody:x:65534: news:x:498: man:x:62: mail:!:497:postfix daemon:x:2: wheel:x:496: kmem:x:495: lock:x:494: tty:x:5: utmp:x:493: audio:x:492: cdrom:x:491: dialout:x:490: disk:x:489: input:x:488: kvm:x:487: lp:x:486: tape:x:485: video:x:484: bin:x:1:daemon systemd-network:x:480: systemd-coredump:x:481: systemd-journal:x:483: systemd-timesync:x:482: postfix:x:51: maildrop:x:59:postfix nscd:x:479: polkitd:x:478: ntadmin:x:71: sshd:x:477: ntp:x:476: www:x:475:wwwrun wwwrun:!:473: mysql:x:474: vscan:x:472: unbound:x:471: opendkim:x:470: -- Per Jessen, Zürich (17.6°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 24/05/2019 13.56, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

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On 05/24/2019 02:33 AM, Per Jessen wrote:

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David C. Rankin wrote:

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All,

Where did the 'wheel' system group (GID 10) go?

afaics, it is still there, id 496.

With my net install there was none.

So you did not install it and nothing you did install did require it. So just install it, where is the problem?

What package installs wheel group? :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

Carlos E. R. píše v Pá 24. 05. 2019 v 14:22 +0200:

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What package installs wheel group? :-?

scarabeus@bugaboo: ~ $ LC_ALL=C zypper in 'group(wheel)' Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... 'group(wheel)' not found in package names. Trying capabilities. 'system-group-wheel' providing 'group(wheel)' is already installed. Resolving package dependencies...

Nothing to do.

So you need system-group-wheel.

Tom And according to: # rpm -q --whatrequires system-group-wheel

On Fri, 2019-05-24 at 14:25 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote: patterns-base-minimal_base-20190206-5.1.x86_64 It seems it _should_ be installed if installation contains even minimal basic pattern. Cheers Martin

On Fri, 2019-05-24 at 15:14 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

Martin Pluskal wrote:

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Carlos E. R. píše v Pá 24. 05. 2019 v 14:22 +0200:

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What package installs wheel group? :-?

scarabeus@bugaboo: ~ $ LC_ALL=C zypper in 'group(wheel)' Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... 'group(wheel)' not found in package names. Trying capabilities. 'system-group-wheel' providing 'group(wheel)' is already installed. Resolving package dependencies...

Nothing to do.

So you need system-group-wheel.

Tom And according to: # rpm -q --whatrequires system-group-wheel

On Fri, 2019-05-24 at 14:25 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote: patterns-base-minimal_base-20190206-5.1.x86_64

It seems it _should_ be installed if installation contains even minimal basic pattern.

On my leap15.1, system-group-wheel and patterns-base-minimal_base are both installed, but

# rpm -q --whatrequires system-group-wheel no package requires system-group-wheel

My patterns-base-minimal_base is a bit older though:

# rpm -qi patterns-base-minimal_base Name : patterns-base-minimal_base Version : 20171206 Release : lp151.29.1 Architecture: x86_64 Install Date: Wed 08 May 2019 09:51:01 CEST Group : Metapackages Size : 58 License : MIT Signature : RSA/SHA256, Fri 03 May 2019 21:49:07 CEST, Key ID b88b2fd43dbdc284 Source RPM : patterns-base-20171206-lp151.29.1.src.rpm Build Date : Fri 03 May 2019 21:48:53 CEST Build Host : cloud123 Relocations : (not relocatable) Packager : https://bugs.opensuse.org Vendor : openSUSE URL : https://github.com/openSUSE/patterns Summary : Minimal Appliance Base Hi

Indeed on Leap I get: # rpm -q --whatrequires system-group-wheel no package requires system-group-wheel Which might be an error. Cheers Martin

On 05/24/2019 07:30 AM, Martin Pluskal wrote:

And according to: # rpm -q --whatrequires system-group-wheel patterns-base-minimal_base-20190206-5.1.x86_64

It seems it _should_ be installed if installation contains even minimal basic pattern.

Cheers

Martin

When I install, I uncheck the "Install Recommended" to cut down on the 30-40% of unwanted packages that are dragged in. I installed Base and Base Extended patterns (along with sudo, pam, etc..) So there seems to be a dependency problem that is listing the system-group-wheel as a "Recommends" rather than a "Dependency" of the packages that need it. -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.

On Sat, 2019-05-25 at 10:02 +0200, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

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When I install, I uncheck the "Install Recommended" to cut down on the 30-40% of unwanted packages that are dragged in. I installed Base and Base Extended patterns (along with sudo, pam, etc..)

Ok, so you told the system only to install what is really required.

...

So there seems to be a dependency problem that is listing the system-group-wheel as a "Recommends" rather than a "Dependency" of the packages that need it.

The 'wheel' group is not required by any package for any default functionality. And as you told the system to only install core required packages, the result is correct. There is no dependency problem. That's the sense of recommended package: could be useful, but are not needed for default functionality.

Remains the question what benefit anyone would have from not installing this 38 byte(!) package. Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 27/05/2019 16.58, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

On Monday 2019-05-27 15:57, Martin Wilck wrote:

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Remains the question what benefit anyone would have from not installing this 38 byte(!) package.

Saving a 64KB record in /var/lib/rpm/Packages.

Then why not have this group again installed from aaa_base? And the few others that have a separate package. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 27/05/2019 19.32, Simon Lees wrote:

On 28/05/2019 02:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 27/05/2019 16.58, Jan Engelhardt wrote:

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On Monday 2019-05-27 15:57, Martin Wilck wrote:

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Remains the question what benefit anyone would have from not installing this 38 byte(!) package.

Saving a 64KB record in /var/lib/rpm/Packages.

Then why not have this group again installed from aaa_base?  And the few others that have a separate package.

Because it is not relevant for all of openSUSE's use cases.

Maybe, but why bother having all those separate rpms, when a single one would be easier to maintain? Relevant or not, it doesn't bother to have the groups defined, no? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 27/05/2019 21.14, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Mon, May 27, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Maybe, but why bother having all those separate rpms, when a single one would be easier to maintain? Relevant or not, it doesn't bother to have the groups defined, no?

It was not easier to maintain, it was a big source of problems, especially when installing new systems (e.g. cycle dependencies), we got bad security press since people complained that we create user and groups nobody wants on a server in DMZ, and so on.

Ok, thanks for the explanation :-)

We didn't did this changes for fun, but to solve many real problems. And that you did only notice after two years, that aaa_base does not contain any user or group anymore, shows that we made a good job here.

Maybe I did not notice because I did not use "wheel", as I did not know what to use it for. Today I found out :-) And now that I know, I might remove that group from all my systems, I have to think it over. Also, most of my systems are upgrades from older systems. And, I never disable recommends ;-)

The problem is a complete different one: 1. wheel group is installed by default. 2. wheel group is not required for the system to work, it is an "enhancement" which could be usefull for some people, but not everybody. 3. the person missing the wheel group told the system, to not install usefull things, but only the really required ones.

I agree.

So the system did what the person told the system, and you want now that we ignore the this wish and render recommends useless by making this things again required. And yes, it does not matter if we speak only about a group (tomorrow it is the second group and the following day a big database? Where should we stop?). People should now, that every action they are doing has side effects. Either you want a default system (which includes the wheel group), then don't mess up with the solver options. Or if you don't know what you are doing, then you should also not mess up with the default solver options. But if you know what you are doing, then it should be no problem to go through the list of packages now missing and select the ones you want.

Sorry, that was not me. I agree with what you say there. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On Tue, May 28, Rodney Baker wrote:

Maybe you missed the fact that the person installed 2 other packages that both referred to the wheel group in their configurations (pam.d/su and sudo), but

pam.d/s does not reference or mention the wheel group in the default configuration. sudo does not require wheel in the default configuration. That you can enhance the configuration with wheel group: ok, that's correct. And as this is a week dependency (they are NOT required for default configuration), they will be installed by default as they are usefull. But the person did explicit say, it will no additional usefull packages, only the real minimal required ones. Everything works as expected.

neither pulled in the package to create the group as a dependency. In this case, if the group is explicitly referred to in a package's default configuration yet the group is not created either by that package or through a dependency, are we not creating a system that is "broken" (at least as far as that package is concerned) by default?

No, in this case the group is not explicit referred in a package default configuration! And they for enhancements: the group will be installed for this reasons by default, but the person didn't wanted that.

Or should the default configurations for sudo/pam be changed to NOT refer to the wheel group?

They don't use the wheel group by default, pam.d/su does not even mention it. Don't play with default resolver configuration if you don't understand the outcome. Thorsten -- Thorsten Kukuk, Distinguished Engineer, Senior Architect SLES & MicroOS SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah, HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* David C. Rankin [05-24-19 14:52]:

On 05/24/2019 07:25 AM, Tomas Chvatal wrote:

...

...

What package installs wheel group? :-?

scarabeus@bugaboo: ~ $ LC_ALL=C zypper in 'group(wheel)' Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... 'group(wheel)' not found in package names. Trying capabilities. 'system-group-wheel' providing 'group(wheel)' is already installed. Resolving package dependencies...

Nothing to do.

So you need system-group-wheel.

Tom

It would seem that we have broken dependencies then, since both sudo and pam (and su) were installed and both sudo and pam look to the wheel group.

Of the many, many installs I've done since SuSE 7.0 (Air), I've never had to look for some additional package just to get standard groups installed.

Is this new in 15.1?

there was discussion recently about removing wheel group completely. and there was comment about aaa_base installing wheel group but no more. perhaps we are somewhat out-of-touch :) all changes have not requested our permission(s) :) -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

Is this new in 15.1?

No, that's pretty old and was discussed at that time here. Thorsten -- Thorsten Kukuk, Distinguished Engineer, Senior Architect SLES & MicroOS SUSE Linux GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nuernberg, Germany GF: Felix Imendoerffer, Mary Higgins, Sri Rasiah, HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 24/05/2019 14.33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Carlos E. R. [05-24-19 08:23]:

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On 24/05/2019 13.56, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

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On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

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With my net install there was none.

So you did not install it and nothing you did install did require it. So just install it, where is the problem?

What package installs wheel group? :-?

zypper se -s wheel

AFAIK it is not a package, but a group. There is, however, package "system-group-wheel", which is news to me. I thought it came from aaa_base. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

24.05.2019 19:00, Patrick Shanahan пишет:

* Carlos E. R. [05-24-19 11:53]:

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On 24/05/2019 14.33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. [05-24-19 08:23]:

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On 24/05/2019 13.56, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

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On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

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With my net install there was none.

So you did not install it and nothing you did install did require it. So just install it, where is the problem?

What package installs wheel group? :-?

zypper se -s wheel

AFAIK it is not a package, but a group.

There is, however, package "system-group-wheel", which is news to me. I thought it came from aaa_base.

you asked "What package installs wheel group?"

following answers:

~> zypper se -s wheel

It answers "which package names contain string `wheel'", not "which packages install group `wheel'". Do you claim that imwheel package installs this group?

Loading repository data... Reading installed packages...

S | Name | Type | Version | Arch | Repository --+--------------------+---------+----------------------+--------+----------------------- | imwheel | package | 1.0.0pre12-lp151.2.3 | x86_64 | openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss | python2-wheel | package | 0.32.3-lp151.1.1 | noarch | openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss | python3-wheel | package | 0.32.3-lp151.1.1 | noarch | openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss i | system-group-wheel | package | 20170617-lp151.4.70 | noarch | openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss

~> zypper if system-group-wheel

Loading repository data... Reading installed packages...

Information for package system-group-wheel: ------------------------------------------- Repository : openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss Name : system-group-wheel Version : 20170617-lp151.4.70 Arch : noarch Vendor : openSUSE Installed Size : 38 B Installed : Yes (automatically) Status : up-to-date Source package : system-users-20170617-lp151.4.70.src Summary : System group 'wheel' Description : This package provides the system group 'wheel'.

ie: you just *might* have looked for it.

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On 24/05/2019 19.01, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

* Andrei Borzenkov <> [05-24-19 12:50]:

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24.05.2019 19:00, Patrick Shanahan пишет:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [05-24-19 11:53]:

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On 24/05/2019 14.33, Patrick Shanahan wrote:

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* Carlos E. R. <> [05-24-19 08:23]:

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On 24/05/2019 13.56, Thorsten Kukuk wrote: > On Fri, May 24, David C. Rankin wrote:

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...

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>> With my net install there was none. > > So you did not install it and nothing you did install did require it. > So just install it, where is the problem?

What package installs wheel group? :-?

zypper se -s wheel

AFAIK it is not a package, but a group.

There is, however, package "system-group-wheel", which is news to me. I thought it came from aaa_base.

you asked "What package installs wheel group?"

following answers:

~> zypper se -s wheel

It answers "which package names contain string `wheel'", not "which packages install group `wheel'". Do you claim that imwheel package installs this group?

...

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Information for package system-group-wheel: ------------------------------------------- Repository : openSUSE-Leap-15.1-Oss Name : system-group-wheel Version : 20170617-lp151.4.70 Arch : noarch Vendor : openSUSE Installed Size : 38 B Installed : Yes (automatically) Status : up-to-date Source package : system-users-20170617-lp151.4.70.src Summary : System group 'wheel' Description : This package provides the system group 'wheel'.

ie: you just *might* have looked for it.

Only if it occurred to me in my dreams that there could be such a package.

no but the "4" package names just *might* give an indication and not a lot of trouble to look at their descriptions: zypper if imwheel python2-wheel python3-wheel system-group-wheel

I never thought it would be a package, because most groups are installed by aaa_base.

and "This package provides the system group 'wheel'." leaves little doubt

But that is an exception and a surprise. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 24/05/2019 20.38, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

24.05.2019 21:02, Carlos E. R. пишет:

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and "This package provides the system group 'wheel'." leaves little doubt

But that is an exception and a surprise.

No, it is not (exception). Change from static list to on-demand creation of needed groups entries happened quite some time ago.

I assume that packages that need a certain user to exist, add it. Say, mysql.

Whether it is surprise for you is different matter.

P.S. of course if some package references some group in its configuration file but does not require corresponding system group RPM, it can be considered a bug.

Are there more groups with their own rpm, which only purpose is to create that group or user? cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -qa | grep system-group system-group-wheel-20170617-lp150.3.34.noarch system-group-hardware-20170617-lp150.3.34.noarch cer@Telcontar:~> cer@Telcontar:~> zypper se system-group ... Loading repository data... Reading installed packages... S | Name | Summary | Type --+-----------------------+--------------------------------+-------- i | system-group-hardware | Hardware related system groups | package | system-group-obsolete | Obsolete system groups | package i | system-group-wheel | System group 'wheel' | package cer@Telcontar:~> Well, there doesn't seem to be many of those. Only three. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 24/05/2019 21.16, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

24.05.2019 22:06, Carlos E. R. пишет:

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cer@Telcontar:~> zypper se system-group ... Loading repository data... Reading installed packages...

S | Name | Summary | Type --+-----------------------+--------------------------------+-------- i | system-group-hardware | Hardware related system groups | package | system-group-obsolete | Obsolete system groups | package i | system-group-wheel | System group 'wheel' | package cer@Telcontar:~>

There are also system-user-*.

Ah, right. I see a few (15.0 now): S | Name | Summary | Type --+------------------------+-------------------------------------+-------- i | system-user-bin | System user and group 'bin' | package i | system-user-daemon | System user and group 'daemon' | package i | system-user-ftp | System user and group ftp | package i | system-user-games | System user and group games | package i | system-user-lp | System user lp | package i | system-user-mail | System user and group mail | package i | system-user-man | System user and group 'man' | package i | system-user-news | System user and group 'news' | package i | system-user-nobody | System user and group nobody | package i | system-user-root | System user and group root | package i | system-user-srvGeoClue | System user for the geoclue service | package i | system-user-upsd | System user upsd | package i | system-user-uucp | System user and group uucp | package | system-user-uuidd | System user and group uuidd | package i | system-user-wwwrun | System user wwwrun and group www | package I don't know why I don't have uuidd. :-? -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)

On 25/05/2019 09.57, Thorsten Kukuk wrote:

On Fri, May 24, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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I never thought it would be a package, because most groups are installed by aaa_base.

That's not correct, aaa_base does not install any user or group since two years. So it's not even a recent change.

Sorry, I was not aware of that change. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 15.0 x86_64 at Telcontar)