On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote:

On 16/02/18 20:51, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 15.02.2018 20:06, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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Hi,

I just attempted to test Leap 15.0 in my laptop, and I don't see the XFCE pattern. I had to abort.

Has XFCE been removed? Is there some trick?

I used openSUSE-Leap-15.0-DVD-x86_64-Build128.1-Media.iso

http://paste.opensuse.org/55023101 http://paste.opensuse.org/94621061

Install started from openSUSE-Leap-15.0-NET-x86_64-Build128.1-Media.iso

Give xfce is not mentioned in https://build.opensuse.org/package/view_file/openSUSE:Leap:15.0/000product/o... my guess is that it is no longer on the dvd whereas because it is in the repo's the net iso finds it. This is the same as most other non core desktops including enlightenment, mate, lxqt etc

Well, that is a pain indeed :-( In the machine I tried, there was no internet available, not at that bandwidth (tether to mobile phone). Perhaps it is time to move to bigger DVD size. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ...

I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in the progress details tab.

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one. If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

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On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ...

I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in the progress details tab.

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines.

I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD. Due to this limitation we could never treat all 2nd tier desktop environments equally on the DVD. Therefore the DVD concentrates on the primary choices. All the rest is available when adding the online repos via the "Custom" option as others have pointed out already. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

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Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

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On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ...

I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in the progress details tab.

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines.

I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

I don't use either, but that's perhaps not a bad point. Is the DVD format dead or dying for this kind of thing? For installation from local media, might it be an idea to up the size? I guess we wouldn't want to carry two (DVD + USB). -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.2°C) http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

* Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@telefonica.net> [02-19-18 09:15]:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256

On 2018-02-19 14:36, Per Jessen wrote:

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Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

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Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

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On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

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On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote: > On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ... > > I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an > option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online > repos mentioned in the progress details tab. >

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines.

I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

I don't use either, but that's perhaps not a bad point. Is the DVD format dead or dying for this kind of thing? For installation from local media, might it be an idea to up the size? I guess we wouldn't want to carry two (DVD + USB).

I have not used a DVD for installation in ages. Current laptops don't have one. New computers have Blue Ray drives instead.

Besides, there are double layer DVD, if absolutely needed.

The smaller stick I can get is 8 GB, that sounds like a reasonable limit today.

The purpose of the installation DVD is installing without needing network at install time - but if we need Internet to be able to install some of the patterns, the purpose is broken. It becomes a Net Install with bigger media.

- -- Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos E. R.

(from 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2

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the DVD iso was never meant to replace online access. the DVD was just to get a working system w/o the necessity of going "online". you can still install a system from DVD and then go online and install your perferred desktop environment. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 02/19/2018 07:09 AM, Richard Brown wrote:

The more I think about this, the more I think our 4.1DVD image might still be the best middle ground that we have to balance these competing concerns.

Don't forget that some organizations, governments for example, forbid the use of USB storage.  I've even seen the extreme of USB jacks being filled with epoxy.  Is this an effective security tactic?  Of course not, but the rules created by pointy-haired bosses must be followed. Also note that installs are sometimes made on systems that don't have network connectivity.  Indeed, it was S.u.S.E. coming on six CD's that attracted me in the 5.3 version days.  That and support of Matrox frame buffers and Buslogic SCSI controllers. Regards, Lew -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Richard Brown wrote:

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

Why should it require more testing? I imagine a larger image would be <dvd-image> + <more packages>. Which is no different to <dvd-image> + <more packages from the net> Maybe that's an alternative - for a larger image, we simply take the DVD image, and add packages in a separate partition to be used as a local repo. The installer should be able to pick that up without too much work. -- Per Jessen, Zürich (2.4°C) http://www.hostsuisse.com/ - virtual servers, made in Switzerland. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Op maandag 19 februari 2018 16:47:48 CET schreef Richard Brown:

On 19 February 2018 at 16:39, Per Jessen <per@computer.org> wrote:

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Richard Brown wrote:

...

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

Why should it require more testing? I imagine a larger image would be <dvd-image> + <more packages>. Which is no different to <dvd-image> + <more packages from the net>

Maybe that's an alternative - for a larger image, we simply take the DVD image, and add packages in a separate partition to be used as a local repo. The installer should be able to pick that up without too much work.

Just because something works fine when installed from Installation Media #1 doesn't mean it will work fine when installed from Installation Media #2

That is why we have test coverage like

https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/overview?distri=kubic&distri=opensuse&vers ion=Tumbleweed&build=20180218&groupid=1 and https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/overview?distri=opensuse&version=15.0&buil d=131.1&groupid=50

which run a significant number of tests against BOTH the DVD media and the NET media currently

and quite often find failures on one, but not the other

If you're talking about adding a 3rd Media, then I would expect our openQA coverage alone would need to increase by 33% to account for that. Even if that coverage is 100% duplicated from the tests/needles/etc written for other media, that's a lot of hardware and/or machine time, as well as regular (daily) human review/triage.

We shouldn't go deciding for something like this and just throw it over the wall as untested nonsense - that wouldn't be the openSUSE way. But doing things properly has real costs, and they should be considered.

Well, we already test Xfce and Lxde on TW, which is distributed in a DVD size image...... Admitted that I have no proper idea about what kind of effort it would be to do provide them in the installer, on the condition that a network connection has been established and distro repos have been enabled. Just some thoughts,. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team Linux user #548252 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Il 19/02/2018 17:45, Peter Suetterlin ha scritto:

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Plus plenty of newcomers to openSUSE already see that 4.1GB as way more than they expect to download.

Really? If I look at games nowaday.....

For me is too much, because 50/60% is unwanted/uneeded stuff and in few days or weeks, is outdated. 4.1 is a good compromise.

...

This is a particular concern in countries without pervasive bandwidth.

This is well an important point, I agree.

...

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

personal view: That power would be better invested somewhere else?

IMHO we need the new Suse Studio replacement fully working (with a good GUI like the old one). Daniele -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2018-02-19 a las 18:55 +0100, Achim Gratz escribió:

Richard Brown writes:

...

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

The more I think about this, the more I think our 4.1DVD image might still be the best middle ground that we have to balance these competing concerns.

I agree, but there is an option I've not seen discussed so far: keep the Netinstall and DVD and provide add-on DVD (and maybe DL-DVD) images with the most popular packages from the repos for those folks who can't go onto the net on their install locations. The installer should ask the user if he wants to use these, but they'd be available only after successful install and so would not need much additional testing. Those images would also provide an offline update path later on.

Not after install, because then it is impossible to install XFCE with DVD + Addon. The current problem is that those that do not want neither KDE nor Gnome can not install from DVD unless they have good internet or create a local repository. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlqLGRQACgkQja8UbcUWM1y0iQD/e0rMQC+UQIRf2W9boUmdbdwO PKCkPPleORwIujEp2OMA/i32qSFxMwVsqV73Rd/2s7kiEjKqhdePqTMLahy5yctJ =xhhT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 El 2018-02-19 a las 21:33 +0100, Peter Suetterlin escribió:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The current problem is that those that do not want neither KDE nor Gnome can not install from DVD unless they have good internet or create a local repository.

Hmm, wasn't there the option to just install the basic X stuff? Then you only need the DE-of-choice afterwards. Should not be too much download, is it?

Yes, that would be an option, but the pattern was removed from the list a year or two ago. There is a basic text pattern, but no basic X pattern. Or I did not see it. It is the desktop that is used as failback, too. - -- Cheers Carlos E. R. (from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlqLNoYACgkQja8UbcUWM1xdHAD/UgQgmJ9WIYxoncyxv1Db3x41 mDoz22VityDna46TjZIA/jSwqyZiYzvzuAhINZvrU2WPb6zGGZ3IUDsUTEzDvWmI =bryY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On 20/02/18 08:43, Felix Miata wrote:

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-19 21:41 (UTC+0100):

...

2018-02-19 21:33 +0100, Peter Suetterlin composed:

...

...

Hmm, wasn't there the option to just install the basic X stuff? Then you only need the DE-of-choice afterwards. Should not be too much download, is it?

...

Yes, that would be an option, but the pattern was removed from the list a year or two ago. There is a basic text pattern, but no basic X pattern. Or I did not see it.

...

It is the desktop that is used as failback, too.

The installer devs wanted the initial package screen to be kept as simple as possible, so basic X got moved to the screen that follows selection of the 4th option, "Custom". There it's called "X Window System", which provides IceWM from the XDM login manager. That same screen also offers XFCE, LXDE, LXQt, Enlightenment and Mate, in addition to re-offering Gnome and KDE, and offering a wealth of other patterns, such as print server, file server, development, laptop and Xen.

Thats correct, this pattern is also needed by gnome + kde and should be on the dvd. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-20 00:29 (UTC+0100):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

The installer devs wanted the initial package screen to be kept as simple as possible, so basic X got moved to the screen that follows selection of the 4th option, "Custom". There it's called "X Window System", which provides IceWM from the XDM login manager. That same screen also offers XFCE, LXDE, LXQt, Enlightenment and Mate, in addition to re-offering Gnome and KDE, and offering a wealth of other patterns, such as print server, file server, development, laptop and Xen.

Well, XFCE was not there, I'm sure of that. Without network it is not there. I will try to see if the "minimal X" is there.

[...]

Confirmed, no Internet; with Custom the software selection window has a "X window system" pattern. It includes icewm-default.

Also confirmed that XFCE is not there.

I tried with the "openSUSE-Leap-15.0-DVD-x86_64-Build129.1-Media.iso" media on a VM, host only network. I did not complete the install, aborted.

I was looking at the "Software Selection and System Tasks" screen in an in process TW20180218 installation as I wrote. Did you select any other pattern, or go into the details screen to make selections? What exactly do you mean by "not there"? It clearly was there among other DEs on the screen I was looking at. Next two things I did were click the details button, then deselect recommends, after which I made a lot of taboos and selections, both patterns and individual packages, none of which included XFCE. I do know from previous experience with the 4 item "Computer Role" screen installers that with recommends disabled, practically nothing installs, no YaST2, no Xorg, no console tools, and others, among which zypper, unless enough of the right patterns and packages are selected to get enough deps to get such things to install in a useful state. It didn't boot. No initrd was created, and chrooting to it seemed to be broken[1] (dracut seeking the modules for the running instead of the newly installed 4.15 kernel[2]). mkinitrd -B worked, then first boot came up / readonly. [1] # mount /dev/hdxy /mnt # mount -o bind /proc /mnt/proc # mount -o bind /sys /mnt/sys # mount -o bind /dev /mnt/dev # chroot /mnt # dracut dracut: Cannot find module directory /lib/modules/4.4.114-42-default/ [2] https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1081653 -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-20 02:12 (UTC+0100):

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-20 00:29 (UTC+0100):

...

...

I tried with the "openSUSE-Leap-15.0-DVD-x86_64-Build129.1-Media.iso" media on a VM, host only network. I did not complete the install, aborted.

...

I was looking at the "Software Selection and System Tasks" screen in an in process TW20180218 installation as I wrote. Did you select any other pattern, or go into the details screen to make selections? What exactly do you mean by "not there"? It clearly was there among other DEs on the screen I was looking at.

You are using TW, which is different.

I seriously doubt that there's a material difference intended on the pattern selection screen.

I'm using Leap 15.0. Some post in this thread explained that detail, XFCE is present in TW, not in 15 dvd. And with no Internet.

So what's missing is missing on account of the DVD space limitation, not because it couldn't be the same with larger iso size or an internet connection.

And it means that the XFCE pattern is not there to click on it, simple as that. I can email you photos...

No need. I get it. No internet, reduced package availabilty, fewer menu selections. I tried installing 129.1 Saturday and had to give up. So I tried TW instead. https://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2018-02/msg00648.html lists 4 new bugs I filed, mostly but not entirely against TW. I added another today. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20.02.2018 03:21, Felix Miata wrote:

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-20 02:12 (UTC+0100):

...

Felix Miata wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-20 00:29 (UTC+0100): You are using TW, which is different. I seriously doubt that there's a material difference intended on the pattern selection screen.

But in the package selection on the DVD. YOU are doing net installs always (at least that's what you are explaining). Carlos is trying a DVD install. XFCE is not (yet ;-) on the Leap 15 DVD. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/02/18 04:25, Achim Gratz wrote:

Richard Brown writes:

...

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

The more I think about this, the more I think our 4.1DVD image might still be the best middle ground that we have to balance these competing concerns.

I agree, but there is an option I've not seen discussed so far: keep the Netinstall and DVD and provide add-on DVD (and maybe DL-DVD) images with the most popular packages from the repos for those folks who can't go onto the net on their install locations. The installer should ask the user if he wants to use these, but they'd be available only after successful install and so would not need much additional testing. Those images would also provide an offline update path later on.

Regards, Achim.

This is probably a worse option then having a 4Gb and 8Gb image, it involves doing something that we don't currently do and would make testing even more complex and different from testing the net install so it would require writing new tests rather then just reusing the tests we have. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

Am 19.02.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Richard Brown:

Ok, joking aside, seriously, I think you make some interesting points and I'm curious what everyone else thinks.

For testing, I'm doing network installations with this ipxe config: ----8<----8<---- :leap15inet initrd http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/leap/15.0/iso/openSUSE-Leap-15.0-N... chain http://192.168.200.1/dist/memdisk || goto failed ----8<----8<---- So I fetch my net-iso from d.o.o each time. For the released product, I previously copied the contents of the ISO to server's hdd, exported it via http and then installed with a fixed kernel / initrd line and options "install=http://192.168.200.1/...". But to be honest, it has been quite some time since I did fresh installations *after* beta phase finished, my production machines are just upgraded. But if the DVD now no longer contains most of the parts I want to install, I'll need to resort to rsync.opensuse.org to mirror the GA repos.

Personally, I do not agree with your assertion that installation media as a replacement for 'not needing network at install time'. Our repos have always held many more GB of packages beyond that which we ever could fit on the DVD. You'd need over 50GB to have a portable copy of the repos to install everything without network, 8GB would be no where near enough. However, I do see how it might be a better value for a general purpose image for many people.

And needing to rsync and store 50GB is of course also going to waste resources on my side, when I was served quite well by the DVD a few years ago. We could of course drop GNOME and KDE from the DVDs, the freed space would probably allow us to add all other desktop environments, and KDE and GNOME could still be installed from the online repositories ;-P

[...]

Plus plenty of newcomers to openSUSE already see that 4.1GB as way more than they expect to download. This is a particular concern in countries without pervasive bandwidth. Sure, to some degree it's an unavoidable side effect of our distributions not being monoculture nonsense like Ubuntu, but making the disk image larger will just make things harder for those people to jump on the openSUSE train.

Agreed.

And yet, creating a 3rd flavour of image, would need a significant amount of build time/power, and significant amount of testing required.

I'm envisioning a "Select your flavor and an installation ISO is created on the fly"-service. How is the product DVD created nowadays? Is it still the crazy mksusecd script? (which might be hackable) Or is it some OBS magic today? (which would be bad, since I don't want to load OBS with the burden of creating lots of different images). How does the installer know which desktops it should offer (under "custom" option)? Is this a list somewhere or does it even look at the available patterns and compile the menu automatically? Another possibility would be the concept of add-on-products, like SLE has: * openSUSE-Base * openSUSE-Module-GNOME-Desktop * openSUSE-Module-KDE-Desktop ... If we would then allow, to just copy the addon-ISOs onto the Base USB stick, the installer experience would be unchanged with a more granular download selection. Lots of ideas, but no time to implement before next winter ;-) -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

(Just short, to avoid misunderstanding) Am 19.02.2018 um 21:03 schrieb Richard Brown:

On 19 February 2018 at 20:21, Stefan Seyfried

...

(which would be bad, since I don't want to load OBS with the burden of creating lots of different images).

What other tool would you use for making sure openSUSE only produces reproducible images which we then sign as official openSUSE Media? [...] OBS does this reasonably well.

I did not want to imply kiwi / OBS being bad tools, just harder to implement "select a few patterns in a web frontend and a custom iso falls out", especially if you don't want to burden build.o.o with this task. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20.02.2018 08:24, Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 9:33 PM, Stefan Seyfried <stefan.seyfried@googlemail.com> wrote:

...

I did not want to imply kiwi / OBS being bad tools, just harder to implement "select a few patterns in a web frontend and a custom iso falls out", especially if you don't want to burden build.o.o with this task.

Although there is a bit of a learning curve with kiwi,

Rest assured that I know both kiwi and OBS very well. Much better then I like to need to know them :-) This is not the subject of this subthread. And IMVHO we can get out of this issue easily now without creating custom images. -- Stefan Seyfried Ceterum censeo fluid-soundfont esse delendam (from the Leap 15 DVD :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Per Jessen wrote:

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: > On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ...

I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in the progress details tab.

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines.

I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

I don't use either, but that's perhaps not a bad point. Is the DVD format dead or dying for this kind of thing? For installation from local media, might it be an idea to up the size? I guess we wouldn't want to carry two (DVD + USB).

So far we had a vendor still producing DVDs and also had them as promo material as DVDs are cheaper than USB sticks. So that use case doesn't seem to go away. Even if we'd go for eg. an 8GB USB image exclusively or in addition, we'd still have a similar discussion in picking an 8GB subset of the 35GB we have online. What would be the intended target audience? cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.com/ SUSE Linux GmbH, GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:34:55 +0100 Ludwig Nussel <ludwig.nussel@suse.de> wrote:

Even if we'd go for eg. an 8GB USB image exclusively or in addition, we'd still have a similar discussion in picking an 8GB subset of the 35GB we have online.

Forgive me if this is an FAQ or anything... But surely at least _one_ possible answer to this would be for OpenSUSE to do what Ubuntu and Fedora have already done, and switch to offering separate "remixes" or "spins" for each desktop that's included in the greater distribution? AIUI this is essentially a matter of metadata and it should thus be somewhat amenable to automation. So if the hypothetical user clicks a download link for OpenSUSE Leap, say, they get a choice: * KDE * GNOME * Xfce * LXDE * Cinnamon * Maté And that's it. If you don't want one of the pre-configured desktops, you download the network installation image and pick your own packages. The Ubuntu model is to "outsource" development of most of these to the community -- the official mainstream distro only offers GNOME. That's what has currently happened with Gecko Linux, AFAICS: https://geckolinux.github.io/ -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100 Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:

Hi Liam,

Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of those spins comparably.

Would it? Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop works, right? So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.

That would be a rather dramatic increase in our required test coverage.

How does changing the source medium mean a dramatic difference?

That would require a significant investment from more community testers, and probably more testing hardware. It would probably also increase the workload on both OBS and our Release Engineers (more things to go wrong with each media)

As I said, this is a task Ubuntu at least has outsourced to its community. Inasmuch as Gecko Linux exists at all, so has SUSE -- no?

I think Ubuntu and Fedora can get away with it because they don't try to run their Projects in a way where the community shape it's very nature. Their corporate overlords can declare a default and all the rest have to deal with it.

I do not see that at all, no.

I see the Ubuntu and Fedora way as being highly inefficient - forcing the fragmentation of their community and creating double work - Our model requires us to find ways of working together - which has proven to be of significant benefit to our KDE & GNOME offerings in particular.

TBH, the different desktop communities are fragmented _anyway_. I find the GNOME 3 tools almost unusable myself. Not only the desktop, but the new accessory apps, with their missing title bars, missing toolbars, weird merged things that you can't middle-click to send to back, etc. KDE is a world unto itself, with its own versions of everything. When it reproduces functionality from Windows, it does it in such a way as to require 3-4× as many mouse clicks, or misses out whole areas of functionality. Actually, come to that, Cinnamon and Maté and KDE _all_ miss out significant chunks of functionality from the OS they're copying. Oddly, the lightweight ones, Xfce and LXDE, are the ones that keep the stuff I personally really want. Sure, people move between them, people change allegiances, but there is already a _huge_ amount of duplicated effort between them all. Nothing SUSE does or doesn't do will change that.

But even if I did agree with that approach, the fact is that for openSUSE I would prefer not open a discussion about focusing on a single desktop environment first

AIUI, SLE only supports a single desktop: GNOME 3. There's no option for anything else, including KDE. So SUSE has _already_ made that choice.

All indications are that no DE in openSUSE has a majority of our userbase (eg. https://twitter.com/sysrich/status/947169171632205826 )

Really? I'd say the answer to that poll is a pretty clear indication of the favoured desktop. There are just 2, all the others are a rounding error (by definition, <=10%). And of the 2, one has a 25% lead. The fates of countries have swung on less, as you and I discussed in Brussels. So yes, I'd call that _very_ clear, myself.

So the best outcome I could expect from following this train of thought would be pissing off the majority of our userbase with whatever decision we could come up with.

I don't see that at all.

The best I think we can do is perhaps consider defining objective criteria for '1st tier' desktop environments and '2nd tier' desktop environments, to give the teams involved a more clear set of guidelines on how to be sure they are seen at the forefront of the Project's offerings.

That's not really what I was arguing at all.

But no, no spins for us please..I don't like that model at all.

And that's your right and that's fine. It does work, though, and it does make the installation process simpler with fewer questions. I think it arguably could _simplify_ testing. Does that not merit examination? -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19.02.2018 um 20:05 schrieb Richard Brown:

Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source medium, but adding another option.

are "fluid-soundfont-gm-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" and "fluid-soundfont-gs-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" needed for a polished desktop experience? If not, dropping them from the DVD will free 116MB on the DVD. I'd guess (educated... I have done some computations ;) that XFCE needs around 30MB on the DVD (if GNOME and all its supporting libraries are already included). I have no real idea about the LXDE sizes, but I think it would be easy to include both LXDE and XFCE and still stay below the size limit if we were willing to get rid of fluid-soundfont-*.

Your above statements neglect the great work our awesome openSUSE KDE and openSUSE GNOME teams do working together.

They still are refining KDE and GNOME, two choices that are not being acceptable to a growing number of users. This is not a bashing of the openSUSE KDE and GNOME teams, it is just a reality that more and more users do not want to use these desktop offerings. I know because I am the openSUSE XFCE Team (together with Takashi), and I'm getting an increasing amount of bug reports, partly for stuff that was broken for quite some time. I'm not a twitter user, so I cannot do as sophisticated market analysis as you, but I have done a quick poll around my family. 1 GNOME user, 7 XFCE users. KDE: 0% GNOME: # 12.5% XFCE: ####### 87.5% LXDE: 0% So the case is clear IMHO ;-)

That seems counterproductive, especially when the issue at hand is a DE which no longer fits on our installation media

It would fit. *if* we would think about dropping texlive from the DVD, we could package all the desktop environments in the world. Do a poll. Count the number of users of each Desktop. Then count the number of users of texlive. And the number of users of fluid-soundfont. (Disclaimer: I am a texlive user. I'd still consider texlive users a minority) Now that texlive is so modular, we could also just not put everything of it onto the DVD. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

(Just adding my 2 cents - since I believe everything needed to be said has been said, just not by everyone. That's an very old bavarian proverb...) I guess this thread has a very high popcorn probabilty. Will our strategical supplies last? Hmmm. Which desktop is the best? Which choice should we offer? Which media are relevant? Which packages should be removed and which not? It's all in here. I love that. Herd in the popcorn! And yes, I strongly believe this is the nature of open source. And I love it. thanks to all of those here and wherever that make this possible. I feel so meta now. Good night. Honestly: I think the XFCE debate is about a subset of a subset of a subset of users. I fully understand that. I like to use XFCE myself, but I would consider installing from network absolutely no problem. How many people really do offline installs these days? How many of them do XFCE? I totally understand the decision. :-) Am Montag, 19. Februar 2018, 21:55:35 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

El 2018-02-19 a las 21:26 +0100, Stefan Seyfried escribió:

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Am 19.02.2018 um 20:05 schrieb Richard Brown:

...

Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source medium, but adding another option.

are "fluid-soundfont-gm-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" and "fluid-soundfont-gs-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" needed for a polished desktop experience?

If not, dropping them from the DVD will free 116MB on the DVD.

Wow!

...

I'd guess (educated... I have done some computations ;) that XFCE needs around 30MB on the DVD (if GNOME and all its supporting libraries are already included). I have no real idea about the LXDE sizes, but I think it would be easy to include both LXDE and XFCE and still stay below the size limit if we were willing to get rid of fluid-soundfont-*.

I'd certainly would vote for this idea.

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That seems counterproductive, especially when the issue at hand is a DE which no longer fits on our installation media

It would fit.

*if* we would think about dropping texlive from the DVD, we could package all the desktop environments in the world.

I agree with that. Drop some packages that are not essential for the installation, and add them after installation, or during installation if there is Internet available.

I think it is reasonable to drop some not essential but big packages to allow keeping more desktops on the (offline) DVD.

...

Do a poll.

Count the number of users of each Desktop. Then count the number of users of texlive. And the number of users of fluid-soundfont.

(Disclaimer: I am a texlive user. I'd still consider texlive users a minority) Now that texlive is so modular, we could also just not put everything of it onto the DVD.

Those packages can surely be downloaded from Internet by those needing them. Surely this is better than removing XFCE from the DVD.

-- Cheers Carlos E. R.

(from openSUSE 42.3 x86_64 "Malachite" (Minas Tirith))

-- Markus Feilner Team Lead Documentation P.S.: I moved - new home address: Wöhrdstraße 10, 93059 Regensburg - - - _This incident will be documented._ - - - +49 173 5876 838 (also via Signal), privat: +49 170 302 7092 mfeilner@suse.[com|de] http://www.suse.com G+: https://plus.google.com/+MarkusFeilner Xing: http://www.xing.com/profile/Markus_Feilner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markusfeilner #mfeilner: Jabber, Skype, Twitter openSUSE: http://www.opensuse.org - - - SUSE Linux GmbH GF: Felix Imendörffer, Jane Smithard, Graham Norton, HRB 21284 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 19.02.2018 um 22:35 schrieb Markus Feilner:

I feel so meta now. Good night.

Honestly: I think the XFCE debate is about a subset of a subset of a subset of users.

Bigger or smaller subset of a subset than the fluid-soundfont users? Bigger or smaller subset of a subset than the texlive users. Note that installing a desktop after the initial installation is not as trivial as adding a "normal" package, because stuff like display managers are selected at installation time.

How many people really do offline installs these days?

I do. "offline" in the sense that the DVD gets served via Gigabit vs my 50MBit internet downlink which gets in practice less 10MBit from download.o.o Installation from the internet takes more than half an hour. Installation from local gigabit takes less than 10 minutes. DVD is 4.4GByte download, rsync repo-oss it's 35GByte.

How many of them do XFCE? I totally understand the decision.

But I'd say there are facts that seem to have not been considered when deciding to go for GNOME and KDE only. -- Stefan Seyfried "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20.02.2018 00:27, Daniele wrote:

Il 19/02/2018 23:59, Stefan Seyfried ha scritto:

...

Am 19.02.2018 um 22:35 schrieb Markus Feilner:

...

I feel so meta now. Good night.

Honestly: I think  the XFCE debate is about a subset of a subset of a subset of users.

Bigger or smaller subset of a subset than the fluid-soundfont users? Is fluidsynth in the dvd ? If yes, having soundfounts makes sense. So rebase your question on fluidsynth ;)

There is libfluidsynth1, which is required only by gstreamer-plugins-bad. Now playing midi files via gstreamer -- I'd certainly call this usecase "esoteric" ;-) (And with a reason: You want to eliminate all latencies when playing MIDI, so using some contrived pipe-plugging-framework like gstreamer for it is almost always totally out of question. I had to also get rid of pulseaudio and directly connect the MIDI keyboard to timidity to the soundcard in order to get somewhat bearable latencies. So I'm not pulling my arguments from thin air; I have actually used this stuff). fluid-soundfont-* is recommended by timidity, but timidity can work without it AFAICT. -- Stefan Seyfried Ceterum censeo fluid-soundfont esse delendam (from the Leap 15 DVD) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Markus Feilner wrote:

Honestly: I think the XFCE debate is about a subset of a subset of a subset of users.

Do you expect wasting 116 MB for fluid-soundfont on the DVD pleases more users than adding XFCE? I doubt that. Ciao, Michael.

* Wilhelm Boltz <boltz.willi.list@gmail.com> [02-19-18 18:13]:

Hello,

Am Montag, 19. Februar 2018, 21:26:32 CET schrieb Stefan Seyfried:

...

...

[...] are "fluid-soundfont-gm-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" and "fluid-soundfont-gs-3.1-lp150.1.2.noarch.rpm" needed for a

Am 19.02.2018 um 20:05 schrieb Richard Brown: polished desktop experience?

If not, dropping them from the DVD will free 116MB on the DVD.

willi@saturn:~> sudo rpm -q --whatrequires fluid-soundfont-gm fluid-soundfont-gs-3.1-5.5.noarch willi@saturn:~> sudo rpm -q --whatrequires fluid-soundfont-gs no package requires fluid-soundfont-gs

...

I'd guess (educated... I have done some computations ;) that XFCE needs around 30MB on the DVD (if GNOME and all its supporting libraries are already included). I have no real idea about the LXDE sizes, but I think it would be easy to include both LXDE and XFCE and still stay below the size limit if we were willing to get rid of fluid-soundfont-*.

+1

why not just drop ALL desktops from the DVD except twm or icewm and allow people to update after install to the desktop environment of their own choice. twm or icewm are minimal space requirements and perhaps we can return to using CDs rather the DVDs. -- (paka)Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA @ptilopteri http://en.opensuse.org openSUSE Community Member facebook/ptilopteri Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://linuxcounter.net Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo paka @ IRCnet freenode -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-02-20 00:32, Simon Lees wrote:

The problem is if we are treating all desktops equally (well equally within 2 tiers) which we are trying to why should LXDE go on the dvd over LXQt? why should xfce go in over Cinnamon, Mate or enlightenment? If we want to go this way we really should make sure there's room for everything.

AFAIK LXDE had no active maintainers last November, when I tried to fill bugs against it. Search gives me a 404 error, so I can not verify current status. XFCE fits in 100MB, says its maintainer. I see fair give 100MB to it, and to others that have users, and reduce the space to KDE/Gnome/texlive. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 20.02.2018 00:32, Simon Lees wrote:

The problem is if we are treating all desktops equally (well equally within 2 tiers) which we are trying to why should LXDE go on the dvd over LXQt? why should xfce go in over Cinnamon, Mate or enlightenment?

This is a valid argument, however, let's look at the technical aspects. LXDE: 20MB on the DVD (hard to count since its recommends from the patterns are not named in a consistent way for easy grepping) XFCE: 30MB on the DVD MATE: around 120MB on the dvd (already not counting ubuntu-matte-*) Cinnamon: hard to tell because there is not even a pattern, but it looks like it's about the same size as XFCE or LXDE LXQT: about 15MB Enlightenment: you can tell this better than my rough guess would be able to Note that all but MATE use some XFCE tools to do stuff, so XFCE is even cheaper if we decide to include the others ;-)

If we want to go this way we really should make sure there's room for everything.

LXDE XFCE MATE Enlightenment: no problem if fluid-soundfont is dropped from DVD. MATE might be harder, but if we were willing to strip down on the included texlive stuff, even that would be absolutely possible. -- Stefan Seyfried Ceterum censeo fluid-soundfont esse delendam (from the Leap 15 DVD :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-02-20 10:38, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 20.02.2018 00:32, Simon Lees wrote:

...

The problem is if we are treating all desktops equally (well equally within 2 tiers) which we are trying to why should LXDE go on the dvd over LXQt? why should xfce go in over Cinnamon, Mate or enlightenment?

This is a valid argument, however, let's look at the technical aspects.

LXDE: 20MB on the DVD (hard to count since its recommends from the        patterns are not named in a consistent way for easy grepping) XFCE: 30MB on the DVD MATE: around 120MB on the dvd (already not counting ubuntu-matte-*) Cinnamon: hard to tell because there is not even a pattern, but it looks like        it's about the same size as XFCE or LXDE LXQT: about 15MB Enlightenment: you can tell this better than my rough guess would be able to

Note that all but MATE use some XFCE tools to do stuff, so XFCE is even cheaper if we decide to include the others ;-)

Ok, interesting math. At the same time that defeats the argument of the slow internet connection somehow, doesn't it? Rather cheap to pull those alternatives from the online repos since all the shared components are already on the DVD.

No, it doesn't defeat the argument of the slow internet, on the contrary. I had a slow, 1 Mbit/s internet for a long time, so I do know. We installed with the full DVD, downloaded across several days, so that the installation itself would complete without Internet. Then, after booting the new system we downloaded the updates and the extras; slowly, but with a system already up and running. The primary duty of the DVD is to be able to install without internet a working system. Not to have it complete. Thus, sound fonts are not needed in that role, nor is texlive. Neither are needed parts of the desktop and system. They may be very important part for some people, of course, but they are not required to run the desktop, and then download the rest. Arguably, LibreOffice is also not needed, but there are many more people using it than texlive. Ditto for games. :-P

So again the question remains, who exactly are we targeting with the DVD? If "people with slow internet connection" why of all the options would they care about desktop environments?

Of course we do. Why would anybody not want to run with a desktop, thus using text mode just because there is no Internet? It doesn't follow.

Chromium for example is bigger than most of the desktops you listed. Having it initially may reduce download size for online updates as deltas would be based on the original package.

I didn't know that Chromium was included in the DVD. I'd say the same: there is FF, not a must have, can be downloaded later, with time and patience. But some people may prefer it. The criteria for removal should be remove all large packages that are not required to have any desktop up and running without Internet. Having all desktops should be the priority; having them complete secondary. Alternatively, bigger image or two images; probably the later. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On 20/02/18 20:08, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 20.02.2018 00:32, Simon Lees wrote:

...

The problem is if we are treating all desktops equally (well equally within 2 tiers) which we are trying to why should LXDE go on the dvd over LXQt? why should xfce go in over Cinnamon, Mate or enlightenment?

This is a valid argument, however, let's look at the technical aspects.

LXDE: 20MB on the DVD (hard to count since its recommends from the        patterns are not named in a consistent way for easy grepping) XFCE: 30MB on the DVD MATE: around 120MB on the dvd (already not counting ubuntu-matte-*) Cinnamon: hard to tell because there is not even a pattern, but it looks like        it's about the same size as XFCE or LXDE LXQT: about 15MB Enlightenment: you can tell this better than my rough guess would be able to

Note that all but MATE use some XFCE tools to do stuff, so XFCE is even cheaper if we decide to include the others ;-)

Ok, interesting math. At the same time that defeats the argument of the slow internet connection somehow, doesn't it? Rather cheap to pull those alternatives from the online repos since all the shared components are already on the DVD. So again the question remains, who exactly are we targeting with the DVD? If "people with slow internet connection" why of all the options would they care about desktop environments? Chromium for example is bigger than most of the desktops you listed. Having it initially may reduce download size for online updates as deltas would be based on the original package.

cu Ludwig

There are many issues at play here, As someone with a less then perfect internet connection and who's had really bad ones in the past, for me the DVD is great if I know i'm going to be setting up multiple machines, its much quicker knowing your getting atleast most of what you need installed up front, then once the machine is running and usable you can leave it over night to get anything else. Its also useful when your laptop doesn't have wifi drivers and you don't want to do the whole install connected to an ethernet cable. As for why have the desktops on there even if there small? Its all about user experience KDE users would be pretty annoyed if they had to install icewm an environment they are unfamiliar with then figure out how to use it to get to yast in order to install the desktop they want. I've had to do this in the past and its really annoying which is why I pushed for a better alternative which atleast for the net install we have. Having the desktop you want to use available at install time is what users expect I have heard several users say they are going to go use a different distro just because we didn't have an install medium with there desktop of choice on the DVD. (Its confusing enough for some users that we don't have an image for each desktop). Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On 2018-02-21 04:22, Fraser_Bell wrote:

On 02/20/2018 05:42 PM, Simon Lees wrote:

...

There are many issues at play here, As someone with a less then perfect internet connection and who's had really bad ones in the past, for me the DVD is great if I know i'm going to be setting up multiple machines, its much quicker knowing your getting atleast most of what you need installed up front, then once the machine is running and usable you can leave it over night to get anything else. Its also useful when your laptop doesn't have wifi drivers and you don't want to do the whole install connected to an ethernet cable.

As for why have the desktops on there even if there small? Its all about user experience KDE users would be pretty annoyed if they had to install icewm an environment they are unfamiliar with then figure out how to use it to get to yast in order to install the desktop they want. I've had to do this in the past and its really annoying which is why I pushed for a better alternative which atleast for the net install we have.

Having the desktop you want to use available at install time is what users expect I have heard several users say they are going to go use a different distro just because we didn't have an install medium with there desktop of choice on the DVD. (Its confusing enough for some users that we don't have an image for each desktop).

Cheers

This pretty much echoes my sentiments.  I have been following and waiting to see offered solutions before speaking up.

I am an Xfce user, have been since the switch from KDE4 to Plasma5.

Some of the reasons for that are technical, moderate to severe installation problems when installing the default KDE offering, none when installing Xfce.

Also, many machines I am installing on are older, limited resources, and almost demand a smaller desktop.

I have, since then, installed openSUSE with Xfce on literally hundreds of PCs for Low Income people, Limited Income people, some with donated "cast-off" PCs, and also for several smaller, often local, Volunteer and Charity Organizations using older PCs donated from businesses when those businesses upgrade their equipment.

So, no, Xfce is not a "hardly used" desktop, and in fact is growing in user base these days for especially the latter paragraph above.

Right. I agree to all that.

My other reasons are personal preferences in what I want from a desktop.

With that said, there is the matter of choices, and as Simon points out here, I requote:

...

...

Having the desktop you want to use available at install time is what users expect I have heard several users say they are going to go use a different distro just because we didn't have an install medium with there desktop of choice on the DVD. (Its confusing enough for some users that we don't have an image for each desktop).

I really *do* like the idea of having two install disks, one with KDE/Gnome, the other with the remaining (or, most of the remaining) desktops.

Me too.

Other items that are used by small subgroups of users should be off the DVD and available in the online repos.

That would allow a single DVD again. But with two DVDs we could have a complete XFCE on the DVD, probably no restrictions.

Also, about internet connections and speeds.

Canada is hardly a third-world country, but because we are less densely populated with lots of remote and semi-remote wilderness, there are many, many Canadians who are lucky if they even have dial-up access.

Carlos' description of downloading a DVD over several days, then offline installation, is a minority here, but a relatively large one.

Right.

As for myself, I (so far) *never* have the internet connected when I am installing.  I have run into far too many problems when having the online repos enabled while installing.

That aspect is getting better.

So, for me, and all those machines I am helping out with, a DVD (or two, if necessary) *absolutely must* include the Desktop choices.

And, Carlos, yes:  DVDs!!!

Ok, I stand corrected :-) -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:16:04 +0100 Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> wrote:

+1

I use XFCE myself and I install it for all my friends because it's really easy to use. I would never ever bother these unexperienced users with a KDE or GNOME desktop.

Personally, I would agree, I guess. I think GNOME 3 is pretty simple _if_ you do not have previous desktop-computer experience. In some ways it is rather like a smartphone UI. But if you are used to something Windows-like, well, KDE 5 is very powerful and capable, but it has a lot of weird little features, like having to go through 2 or 3 levels of menu options just to resize a panel -- not only complicated but also unlike Windows. In my experience KDE5 does not work properly with VirtualBox's OpenGL passthrough, so like GNOME 3 and Cinnamon, I consider it not a good choice for working in VMs. LXDE is simple, clean and fast, but also deprecated by its own developers, and its replacement, LXQt, is not finished yet. So IMHO the main choices are: * Xfce -- clean, simple, highly customisable. * Cinnamon -- attractive, Windows-like, but needs hardware OpenGL support, so not good inside VMs or on old machines. * Maté -- clean, simple, not quite as customisable as Xfce but more than GNOME. Also sits between Xfce and GNOME 3/Cinnamon in hardware requirements. Everything else (Budgie, Enlightenment, etc.) is either very niche or does not have a clear selling-point. Budgie doesn't do anything that you cannot achieve by customising GNOME 3, Maté or Xfce, for instance. Enlightenment offers a lot of bling but that's about all, and it has not fully moved into the world of compositing desktops, which offer bling of their own. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:15:26 +1030 Simon Lees <sflees@suse.de> wrote:

Enlightenment can have some bling, not crazy wobbly windows or anything but it can do most other things, we might disable it in the default openSUSE builds though. Enlightenment is probably also the only other one in that list that can have mostly working wayland support (In openSUSE this still needs some testing which i'll get to at some point). You can also choose to not have bling if you want.

I did try it some decade or decade-and-a-half ago, and whereas there were some _very_ fancy themes, there wasn't any very fancy functionality. Personally I like my desktops to look very very plain. (NeXTstep was IMHO the most beautiful desktop ever written, and it was almost entirely black, white and a few shades of grey.) So for me, there wasn't a lot of appeal in Enlightenment. I gave it another look when Bodhi Linux came out. Not much had changed -- none of the exciting _new_ bling that compositing had brought to GNOME 2 and KDE -- but it all looked rather more Win9x-ish. Nothing to see here, move along. So I haven't been back. Then I read this: https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened (Warning: sweary.) It's become quite famous and attracted many angry responses, including from Rasterman himself -- but as it was at the time, it appears to be almost entirely true and accurate. There were some very hasty edits to the code and the docs to conceal some of the things the article criticises, but there's history to show that. Later, even Bodhi itself got annoyed with the development cycle and forked E17 to create its own desktop. So, yes, long may it continue and so on -- I gather Tizen uses it, for instance -- but I don't foresee it escaping its niche in the foreseeable future. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084

On 25/02/18 06:33 AM, Simon Lees wrote:

Well for me its the only desktop that does workspaces / virtual desktops properly with multiple screens out of the box, I can have screen 1 on workspace 4 and screen to on workspace 2 then change screen 1 to workspace 3 then sometime later change screen 2 to workspace 2, this is great for having certain apps on one screen and flicking between multiple on the other.

That is pretty much the way I worked with KDE and have this pact decade. Back in my Mandrive days (yes, before Mageia) I worked that way with Gnome, but I found Gnome increasingly ... something I didn't like working with. I look at Enlightenment and its architecture and I think "That's the right way to do things", but somehow whenever I load it and try to use it seem to suffer a heartbreak full of frustration trying to set it up, get it to do what you describe. There just doesn't seem to be the How-To that there is for KDE and, *sigh* Gnome. What there is seems to be written, well I can't say "in a different language", since it is English, yes, but it seems to have, and lets face it so does Linux compared to Windows, different cultural assumptions KDE does have a heavy footprint. I gather Enlightenment's is much smaller. Perhaps I need some better 'hand holding' than the current docco gives for beginners with Enlightenment. But it's had to pin down and describe what I think is lacking. -- One trend that bothers me is the glorification of stupidity, that the media is reassuring people it's all right not to know anything. That to me is far more dangerous than a little pornography on the Internet. - Carl Sagan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:05:01 +0100 Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:

On 19 February 2018 at 18:37, Liam Proven <lproven@suse.com> wrote:

...

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100 Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

Hi Liam,

Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of those spins comparably.

Would it?

Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop works, right?

So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.

...

That would be a rather dramatic increase in our required test coverage.

How does changing the source medium mean a dramatic difference?

Unless we seriously are considering leaving vendors like Open Source Press unable to produce DVD's and giving up on the idea of giving away DVDs at conferences, then we're not talking about changing the source medium, but adding another option.

More installation media options, mean more chances of one of those having problems (either due to build or developer error), which means more testing is needed.

I don't see that, but I don't know enough about how the product is built (yet). At least I see that others in the thread share my uncertainty, so that's a relief.

Your choice of terminology is confusing. openSUSE can't 'outsource' anything to it's community, openSUSE IS it's community. We're talking about what will the openSUSE community do in the openSUSE communities distributions. We don't have anyone else to give this problem to.

Um. I do not understand you, but I feel that you are lecturing me in a very pedantic way, rather than trying to teach me something here. I am quite new here. I have been a SUSE user for about 20 years, but not much since 2004 when I switched to Ubuntu -- mostly because SUSE Linux was so big, and included so much stuff I didn't need, whereas Ubuntu was small and lean and focussed and took about a quarter as much disk space. I missed YAST at first, and especially SAX, but everything else just worked and I copied xorg.conf from my SUSE install. Now I am back and I am enjoying the experience. But I don't know how the company and its products and community are structured, so please, by all means, tell me, rather than archly questioning assumptions I didn't make and asking me why I have not respected divisions that I do not even know exist.

...

Inasmuch as Gecko Linux exists at all, so has SUSE -- no?

No - Gecko Linux is a derivative of openSUSE, utilising our Projects free and open licensed software, to distribute our software with additional software in a way which we believe to be inconsistent with the licenses and patents involved. They have no involvement with the openSUSE project. They do nothing on our behalf. And asking them to do anything on our behalf would potentially be problematic for the openSUSE Project from a legal standpoint.

Again, this is assuming knowledge I do not have. I would need it to be clarified and explained for me if you want me to understand.

...

...

I think Ubuntu and Fedora can get away with it because they don't try to run their Projects in a way where the community shape it's very nature. Their corporate overlords can declare a default and all the rest have to deal with it.

I do not see that at all, no.

Well you seem to think that the openSUSE community can outsource itself unto itself, so I think it's safe to say that we both have a very different perspective on community dynamics.

No, not really. You know how it works. I don't. But you assume that I do and are criticising me for my lack of knowledge. That does not feel good. Just saying. I have been providing free support for Ubuntu since 2004, as a way of paying a little something back for a great OS I've been using for nothing for 14 years now. I have never worked for them, but I am a member of the community so I know how it works. I have worked for Red Hat for a short time and have a slightly better idea of how it works. I do not know how SUSE works. So, by all means, please do educate me, but can you try not to do it by saying "I think we have a different perspective" and "would potentially be problematic" and "we" versus "SUSE"? You and I are both SUSE employees communicating via our SUSE email addresses. I do not know what you mean. I do not know what you mean when you keep talking about "we" versus "SUSE".

Your above statements neglect the great work our awesome openSUSE KDE and openSUSE GNOME teams do working together.

No they do not. I am saying I do not like the software. I am not saying anything about the people who make it, from any company or none. I am not saying anything about their vendors, suppliers, employers, their personal preferences in UI design, or anything. I'm just saying I personally don't like the software and my own personal observations about it. And, *again*, I am not saying anything about any people, communities, employees or anything else. Mainly, I am asking questions here, and offering observations and suggestions, and that's all.

They may work on different software that suits different peoples sensibilities, but the importance is that when working together as part of _openSUSE_, our community contributors do an awesome job of bridging the gaps between themselves and their various upstreams. I concede that I, myself, in particular often don't do a good enough job talking about that, but I certainly can't let someone saying the opposite stand unchallenged.

I do not know what your beliefs, choices or preferences are and I am not challenging them.

...

Sure, people move between them, people change allegiances, but there is already a _huge_ amount of duplicated effort between them all.

Nothing SUSE does or doesn't do will change that.

Why are you talking about SUSE Linux GmbH/SUSE LLC suddenly?

Because we both work for them. Because they package this software and it goes out with their name and logo on it. If you are trying to teach me about the corporate structure, this is a rotten way of doing it!

...

...

But even if I did agree with that approach, the fact is that for openSUSE I would prefer not open a discussion about focusing on a single desktop environment first

AIUI, SLE only supports a single desktop: GNOME 3. There's no option for anything else, including KDE.

So SUSE has _already_ made that choice.

SUSE is not openSUSE.

It isn't?

Their choices are not openSUSE's choices.

They aren't?

openSUSE is an independent open source project

It is?

which SUSE contributes to as peers and partners - not controllers.

It does? You are assuming my knowledge here. I don't have it. *Please* instruct me rather than just telling me I'm wrong?

...

...

All indications are that no DE in openSUSE has a majority of our userbase (eg. https://twitter.com/sysrich/status/947169171632205826 )

Really? I'd say the answer to that poll is a pretty clear indication of the favoured desktop. There are just 2, all the others are a rounding error (by definition, <=10%). And of the 2, one has a 25% lead.

The fates of countries have swung on less, as you and I discussed in Brussels.

So yes, I'd call that _very_ clear, myself.

So you'd piss off the majority of volunteers and users to favour the most popular minority choice?

What? No!

I think we have very different mindsets when it comes to what makes a healthy community.

No. I don't even know what yours is, and you don't know mine, but you're leaping to conclusions about it.

One of openSUSE's strengths is we do not cater to just the needs of the largest groups in our community, but we strive to create an environment where anyone can help shape openSUSE into what they need.

Sorry, man, but this sounds like content-free marketing guff to me, I'm afraid. :-)

...

...

But no, no spins for us please..I don't like that model at all.

And that's your right and that's fine. It does work, though, and it does make the installation process simpler with fewer questions. I think it arguably could _simplify_ testing. Does that not merit examination?

It doesn't simplify testing, unless you throw away parts you decide you no longer want to test.

Splitting things into smaller chunks tends to make them simpler. It reduces the range of functionality. That should make it easier to test, no?

That seems counterproductive, especially when the issue at hand is a DE which no longer fits on our installation media, but is still 100% fully tested and fully supported by the openSUSE Project.

Again, I don't know what this means and I need further explanation, please. -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/02/18 04:07, Liam Proven wrote:

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 16:29:19 +0100 Richard Brown <RBrownCCB@opensuse.org> wrote:

...

Hi Liam,

Your proposed approach would necessitate that we test each one of those spins comparably.

Would it?

Presumably there is some kind of testing that picking each desktop works, right?

So that means that something is ticking each box, checking it installs cleanly, checking it runs, then moving on to the next one.

On this Idea I have considered (but haven't had the time) creating an "Alternate Desktop" DVD image, so the basic idea is shipping a 4.1 GB DVD but without KDE and Gnome and instead having all the other desktops (or as many as I can fit). This has a number of advantages over other suggestions: 1. Unlike the 8GB image we don't need to also test Gnome / KDE again so the QA load will be easier. 2. Users will still only need to download a 4Gb image with a higher % of stuff they actually use. 3. We don't overload build.o.o with everyone building there own image. The main problem here is my time, I have rather alot on and have basic things like making sure enlightenment passes qa tests I haven't even got to yet. So there is no way I on my own could get this done for Leap 15.0 at a quality we'd consider openSUSE ready. But having said that I could create a proof of concept image pretty quickly, I might do that today just for fun anyway. I can probably test enlightenment and give LXQt a quick run if other people would like to test other desktops (Carlos I presume you might be willing to test xfce) we can get to the point where we atleast have something that we know isn't badly broken. At openSUSE conference last year I remember someone (Probably Richard) talking about the idea of incubator projects (I may have got that name completely wrong) but the concept being projects that are working under the openSUSE Project banner but aren't at openSUSE quality yet, this Idea would probably fit that well. Maybe by 15.1 or 15.2 we can aim to have it full openSUSE quality. Cheers -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Tuesday, 20 February 2018 10:27:05 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-02-20 00:29, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On this Idea I have considered (but haven't had the time) creating an "Alternate Desktop" DVD image, so the basic idea is shipping a 4.1 GB DVD but without KDE and Gnome and instead having all the other desktops (or as many as I can fit).

I also like this idea.

Problem: XFCE uses a lot of Gnome libs, so a part of it is needed at least. probably LXqt uses parts of KDE.

Yeah so the image will still have gtk and whatever other gnome libs that xfce and mate need, similarly it will have Qt (but probably not KDE Libs), most of the space saving likely comes from not shipping all the KDE apps and extended gnome apps, but i'll have to wait and see what size the first image comes out at. -- Simon Lees (Simotek) http://simotek.net Emergency Update Team keybase.io/simotek SUSE Linux Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30 GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 10:18:10 +1100 Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au> wrote:

Ubuntu didn't "outsource" anything: SABDFL simply decided that he wanted to only go with Gnome, dropped the others and told them to go and play by themselves and not to come back to his sandbox.

If I may say so, that is not fair or representative. From its first version, Ubuntu only came with GNOME. There is no choice of desktop in the installer and never has been. The media *only* included GNOME. After GNOME 3, it switched to its own home-grown desktop, Unity. Then it only included Unity. Now, it has abandoned Unity and switched back to GNOME, i.e. GNOME 3. However, in the repositories were multiple other desktops. If users wanted, they could install a command-line system and then on that install whatever desktop they wished. KDE was included from the very early days, but there were no images available with KDE instead of GNOME. Outside of Canonical, volunteers assembled a version of Ubuntu with KDE instead of GNOME, which installed a KDE system instead. This is called Kubuntu. It was the first "remix". Others followed. I think -- I have not checked this -- first came Ubuntu with XFCE, "Xubuntu". Then Ubuntu with LXDE, "Lubuntu" -- I was _very_ peripherally involved with that project. After Unity, there was Ubuntu with GNOME 3, which never had a nickname -- it was just "Ubuntu GNOME". It is now the official primary version. Most recently, there have also been Ubuntu MATE, which restores the GNOME 2 desktop that Ubuntu originally came with, and Ubuntu Budgie. But although these are all built from packages in the standard repositories, and are thus officially sanctioned, mentioned on the website, offered as alternative downloads, etc., they are not the mainstream product. The *only* OS produced by Canonical staff was original GNOME 2 based, later Unity based, and is now GNOME 3 based. At one time, there was a single Canonical employee working on the KDE packages and assisting with Kubuntu, but that position was closed and the person was redeployed or let go, I do not remember. (This ignores the short-lived Netbook Remix, but that was intended for a particular type of hardware. It also ignores the various forms of function-specific Ubuntu remixes such as Ubuntu Studio, because we're discussing desktops here.) -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/02/18 16:34, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

...

On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote: > On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: >> On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ... > > I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It > is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in > the progress details tab. >

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines.

I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

I don't use either, but that's perhaps not a bad point.  Is the DVD format dead or dying for this kind of thing?  For installation from local media, might it be an idea to up the size?  I guess we wouldn't want to carry two (DVD + USB).

So far we had a vendor still producing DVDs and also had them as promo material as DVDs are cheaper than USB sticks. So that use case doesn't seem to go away.

Even if we'd go for eg. an 8GB USB image exclusively or in addition, we'd still have a similar discussion in picking an 8GB subset of the 35GB we have online. What would be the intended target audience?

cu Ludwig

I'm in the situation where I pay a premium for 8G of mobile bandwidth per month (no fiber or copper available in my area) and extra gigs costing twice as much, saying that I've discovered that a zypper dup comes to about 5G whereas with the dvd I end up using more, so I usually download the dvd the next month. What would be useful is a second dvd for other offline installs would save me from creating a repo on a usb stick from my package cache. Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/02/18 12:33, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I'm in the situation where I pay a premium for 8G of mobile bandwidth per month (no fiber or copper available in my area) and extra gigs costing twice as much, saying that I've discovered that a zypper dup comes to about 5G whereas with the dvd I end up using more, so I usually download the dvd the next month. What would be useful is a second dvd for other offline installs would save me from creating a repo on a usb stick from my package cache. The proposal to have two DVDs, one for Gnome+KDE, another for the rest, would be more adjusted, IMO.

It now appears that XFCE can have space on the DVD. Dave P -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 20. Februar 2018 11:33:59 MEZ schrieb "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net>:

On 2018-02-20 08:06, Dave Plater wrote:

...

On 19/02/18 16:34, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Per Jessen wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.: > On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote: >> On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote: >>> On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: >>>> On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ... >>> >>> I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an

...

...

...

...

...

>>> is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in >>> the progress details tab. >>> >> >> Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images >> while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more

option. It thought

...

...

...

...

...

>> has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed >> one. >> >> If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out >> in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on >> obs and probably changing around 3 lines. > > I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops > available would be more useful.

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

I don't use either, but that's perhaps not a bad point.  Is the DVD format dead or dying for this kind of thing?  For installation from local media, might it be an idea to up the size?  I guess we wouldn't want to carry two (DVD + USB).

So far we had a vendor still producing DVDs and also had them as promo material as DVDs are cheaper than USB sticks. So that use case doesn't seem to go away.

Even if we'd go for eg. an 8GB USB image exclusively or in addition, we'd still have a similar discussion in picking an 8GB subset of the 35GB we have online. What would be the intended target audience?

...

I'm in the situation where I pay a premium for 8G of mobile bandwidth per month (no fiber or copper available in my area) and extra gigs costing twice as much, saying that I've discovered that a zypper dup comes to about 5G whereas with the dvd I end up using more, so I usually download the dvd the next month. What would be useful is a second dvd for other offline installs would save me from creating a repo on a usb stick from my package cache.

The proposal to have two DVDs, one for Gnome+KDE, another for the rest, would be more adjusted, IMO.

To provide a maximum of confusion to esp. new user? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:20:46 +0100 "Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> wrote:

There is at least a very popular distribution that has a different media for each desktop.

Two. It's how Ubuntu does it, and it's how Fedora does it. And Mint, but Mint is effectively an unofficial remixer of both Ubuntu and Debian. - -- Liam Proven - Technical Writer, SUSE Linux s.r.o. Corso II, Křižíkova 148/34, 186-00 Praha 8 - Karlín, Czechia Email: lproven@suse.com - Office telephone: +420 284 241 084 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEeNZxWlZYyNg7I0pvkm4MJhv0VBYFAlqMVBEACgkQkm4MJhv0 VBbNhxAAtdlyA5XzPl89JRjzRDuiwoQYiBS1xZiclOQxfafOfGH3mUk/VeDcCR45 2xYX2Vb0fK9vxjE9REwQyIBmCqPieP/1rY2j/oPom2ahikkZehBkMYRq/XuJCmY6 FFs9N42pgLWPQ3S9z9pF7DiFWaBLdf4WgejI/pgYq7o1141tPnsD2sYcM+8TDQqo +dMcK7KzsQD+/t46D+fK0vRWbbYArrRZ9TVC/xNGI8h6hSUUKYX1tZcFEVP7ZNPD vyKRFdF3KhrzgxL1DJf9rtpreCwdolp037tdK2yvnmRKviEvAY5MjDboqbhZHDAc 4FAHCuLHcE7DDPFZXElBwlAOiDJ77rQXBpY+YVoClmtpmLl08rlJbMlLI9iUZCfO vRUiH3dNbtzWtZnkcwxkO2ml68/SE94nQtxko3cNnR/D4pqJajBxLBxMT0UdsbgR ju1Txl6KxA8Egq7mVwGhGEg8JkxCNdVEJ9EfadK5wS7Qr9cXf68AI/8Pk3nsILUw scUry8JSpRnTJ81oiJB8/RAIxFcXQI9u0Oi6rbqz7V8L4uGQqneBwNLBUXswVl7y ChrQOi5Gcn5r5iS6F/bmwgQEorp275rkDt0eMbTdghMVRTjV24PNtqvqiMOn/qCJ alvLLOF8SwGQcM6H9IqshbM6RvFrM/dgHUmew2VIrTWzdEnybUs= =woRQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Op dinsdag 20 februari 2018 20:01:44 CET schreef Axel Braun:

Am Dienstag, 20. Februar 2018, 09:20:46 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

[snip]

...

...

...

The proposal to have two DVDs, one for Gnome+KDE, another for the rest, would be more adjusted, IMO.

To provide a maximum of confusion to esp. new user?

Why would it be confusing? :-o

There is at least a very popular distribution that has a different media for each desktop.

....and I feel this is complete rubbish. Thats just the charme of openSUSE, that you are able to install every desktop from the same basis.

For myself, I mostly use Netinstaller anyway, as bandwidth is not a topic over here.

If bandwidth is a topic, then you are in an emerging region, to phrase it positively. And then it is very likely that you dont have the latest hardware with double-layer DVD writer and so on. So keeping it stupid, nice and easy cant be that wrong....

My 2c Axel

And, to add a third cent: let's not take Ubuntu as an example. They do not serve a KDE install medium, Kubuntu does. And if the Lubuntu guys will not dance to Canonical's tune, the same road awaits them. -- Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht openSUSE Board Member openSUSE Forums Team Linux user #548252 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Am 20. Februar 2018 23:48:37 MEZ schrieb Basil Chupin <blchupin@iinet.net.au>:

On 21/02/18 06:01, Axel Braun wrote:

...

Am Dienstag, 20. Februar 2018, 09:20:46 CET schrieb Carlos E. R.:

[snip]

...

...

...

The proposal to have two DVDs, one for Gnome+KDE, another for the rest, would be more adjusted, IMO. To provide a maximum of confusion to esp. new user? Why would it be confusing? :-o

There is at least a very popular distribution that has a different media for each desktop. ....and I feel this is complete rubbish. Thats just the charme of openSUSE, that you are able to install every desktop from the same basis.

...

For myself, I mostly use Netinstaller anyway, as bandwidth is not a

...

here.

If bandwidth is a topic, then you are in an emerging region, to

topic over phrase it

...

positively. And then it is very likely that you dont have the latest hardware with double-layer DVD writer and so on.

Statements like this bring up in my mind unpleasant characters like Queen Marie Antoinette who is purported to have said, "If they have no bread, let them eat cake".

I have no idea how you came from one to the other statement, but it was not meant discriminating. Just technical.. Axel -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 21.02.2018 01:24, Felix Miata wrote:

Axel Braun composed on 2018-02-20 20:01 (UTC+0100):

...

If bandwidth is a topic, then you are in an emerging region, to phrase it positively.

For those who've never ventured outside Europe, I can understand how that might seem so.

I think you (and Basil, but for him it's expected ;-)) are misreading Axels statement. I read it as "if we are considering low bandwidth as an issue, then Blu-Ray media and USB sticks are not the solution, because often it will be the case that people with low bandwidth will not have the option of USB boot and Blu-Ray drives". Fraser_Bell confirmed that for me. Of course there are wealthy people that still have low bandwidth. -- Stefan Seyfried Ceterum censeo fluid-soundfont esse delendam (from the Leap 15 DVD :-) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

"Carlos E. R." <robin.listas@telefonica.net> writes:

On 2018-02-21 08:54, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

...

On 21.02.2018 01:24, Felix Miata wrote:

...

Axel Braun composed on 2018-02-20 20:01 (UTC+0100):

...

If bandwidth is a topic, then you are in an emerging region, to phrase it positively.

For those who've never ventured outside Europe, I can understand how that might seem so.

I think you (and Basil, but for him it's expected ;-)) are misreading Axels statement.

I read it as "if we are considering low bandwidth as an issue, then Blu-Ray media and USB sticks are not the solution, because often it will be the case that people with low bandwidth will not have the option of USB boot and Blu-Ray drives".

On the contrary.

I have had low bandwidth for many years, 1 megabit per second adsl. I downloaded the DVD taking days (say, intermittently during the nights), because that is far easier that attempting to install directly from network: the initial install or the upgrades can take a day or two.

Why don't you download NET iso and perform installation with packages you need? Or you can download via iPXE linux and initrd from download.suse.org and boot installer without downloading any ISO. http://boot.salstar.sk/ -- Nikola -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 2018-02-21 01:24, Felix Miata wrote:

Axel Braun composed on 2018-02-20 20:01 (UTC+0100):

...

If bandwidth is a topic, then you are in an emerging region, to phrase it positively.

For those who've never ventured outside Europe, I can understand how that might seem so. Here in Florida, which I find hard to think of as emerging region, and ranks 4th in population (almost caught up to 3rd place New York) among the United States, probably half the land mass has no affordable broadband access (satellite down with POTS up is prohibitively expensive for virtually all, and too rationed for downloading isos).

Here in Europe that can be the case on rural areas. Some are lucky and have wide area wifi, with some sort of small parabolic antenna on the roof. I'm not talking isolated houses in the middle of nowhere, but small villages too. -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)

Carlos E. R. composed on 2018-02-19 13:07 (UTC+0100):

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD.

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

Wrong. I still buy DVDs in 100 packs. I've yet to use a USB stick for any openSUSE installation. Sticks have no practical provision for physical content labeling, and because of their wide variation in physics, are awful WRT physical storage, quite the opposite of DVDs. I made one once for Puppy, one for Slax, and one for Knoppix. In those cases I must install to a PC without an OM drive, I use either Knoppix to configure the HD with a bootloader and an openSUSE installation kernel and initrd for a net install, or temporarily move the target HD to a compatible PC that has an OM drive for either installation or pre-configuration to boot an installation system, or use an external HD in lieu of DVD. If I would ever find an external USB DVD drive not made by LG, Lite-On, HP or ASUS and not dependent on bus power, likely I'd get and use one of those as a fourth option. Maybe someday I'll try PXE, but so far, I've had no such compulsion. If the isos were bigger than fits a DVD as they are now, I'd probably never download any but the diminutive net install variety. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 19/02/18 23:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-02-19 12:56, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

...

On 2018-02-19 01:26, Simon Lees wrote:

...

On Friday, 16 February 2018 22:05:02 ACDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

On 2018-02-16 11:32, Simon Lees wrote: ... I'm just installing a VM with TW, and there XFCE was an option. It is apparently on the DVD, there are no online repos mentioned in the

On 2018-02-16 12:16, Carlos E. R. wrote: progress details tab.

Tumbleweed still seems to be using the old way of building images while leap 15 is using the new way, so its likely that more thought has gone into whats currently on the Leap DVD then the Tumbleweed one.

If you really need xfce on a disk image and wanted to swap it out in place of kde you could easily do it by branching a package on obs and probably changing around 3 lines. I think that dumping the DVD size limit and having all desktops available would be more useful. With KDE and GNOME we already have some redundancy wrt desktops on

Am 19.02.2018 um 11:48 schrieb Carlos E. R.: the DVD. That alone brings us to 4.1GB. The DVD size is a physical hard limit. There's just not more space on an actual blank DVD. Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks.

Hey, hey, hey! Stop with the assumptions that you are always correct. *I* always use a DVD, OK? *You* can use whatever you want but *I* use DVDs -- unless you want to term me a "nobody". [pruned] BC -- Always be nice to people on your way up -- you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20/02/18 14:28, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2018-02-20 03:37, Basil Chupin wrote:

...

On 19/02/18 23:07, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Nobody uses DVD today. We use USB sticks. Hey, hey, hey! Stop with the assumptions that you are always correct. *I* always use a DVD, OK? *You* can use whatever you want but *I* use DVDs -- unless you want to term me a "nobody". Time you update to bluerays :-P 100 GB. X'-)

I've got Bd disks but it's cheaper to buy a 4TB HD ($154) than buy Bd discs. BC -- Always be nice to people on your way up -- you'll see the same people on your way down. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

You may know this, it's in the repo . . . Just FYI Wayne On Wed, 2018-05-30 at 22:41 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On Thursday, 2018-02-15 at 20:06 +0100, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Hi,

I just attempted to test Leap 15.0 in my laptop, and I don't see the XFCE pattern. I had to abort.

Has XFCE been removed? Is there some trick?

I used openSUSE-Leap-15.0-DVD-x86_64-Build128.1-Media.iso

No internet.

To my glad surprise, the final iso does have XFCE included. Tank you! :-))