my imho is: it's not so easy. it's a blocker. if a vista user want to try suse and sees that "breaks vista" wont install it, and we dont need that :) The thing is, if 11.0 is delayed a month there are any waranties that

2008/6/7 Andras Barna : the problem will be fixed? Up to where I see we are so near to find the cause (not even the fix) like we were the day the bug were reported. One could argue that if there would be enough Vista users the cause would have already be found through massive testing. If the cause is not found for 11.0 release is because there are few Vista users, and so the problem isn't so important. We should acknowledge that perhaps we don't have the resources to fix such a problem... we specially lack a resource: Vista copies. Where is the Microsoft-Novell Interoperability Lab when we need it? ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

No delays because of Vista. Please.

Give a good reason not to delay for this issue. Vista is around, and it openSUSE installation will break it, it will be considered openSUSE fault, not surely Vista fault. Have other distribution the same issues? If not, how did they solve? Why the problem was not there in 10.3? Regards, Alberto --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted unless one installs the proper bootloader.

It's simply false. OpenSUSE 10.3 can be properly installed on a system with an existing installation of Vista, without any kind of manual intervention. The other statements of yours are opinions. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

...

...

Alberto Passalacqua 06/08/08 7:46 PM >>> Everybody that tried to use it, knows that it can't be dual booted unless one installs the proper bootloader.

It's simply false. OpenSUSE 10.3 can be properly installed on a system with an existing installation of Vista, without any kind of manual intervention. The other statements of yours are opinions. Regards, A. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e- mail: opensuse- factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e- mail: opensuse- factory+help@opensuse.org 10.3 also had Problems with Dualbooting Vista. I could not get it running on my PC . I suspect that it was because i was running an 64-bit Vista Ultimate but i never had time to do good TS on it. Opensuse 10.3 was also 64-bit. And i know that i was not the only one with this problem in 10.3. The Grub entry was exactly the same like with my XP now. Just didn't want to boot. I replaced Vista with XP after an memory Upgrade and SP1 destroyed my Vista Installation. But i will see if i can install it on my Laptop. Not sure that i will have the Time though because i have a busy week ahead. Stefan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lørdag den 7. Juni 2008 22:02:55 skrev Stephan Kulow:

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:

...

...

No delays because of Vista. Please.

Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide. Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by the openSUSE installer)? If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use crappy Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before installing nice openSUSE". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 8 Jun 2008, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Sonntag, 8. Juni 2008 schrieb Martin Schlander:

...

Lørdag den 7. Juni 2008 22:02:55 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:

...

...

No delays because of Vista. Please. Alberto didn't say that, please be careful when quoting.

Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.

Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by the openSUSE installer)? No, while the original reporter of 396444 did resize, 3-4 of the commentor's logs did not resize. Including myself.

If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use crappy Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before installing nice openSUSE".

No, we did several successul resizes. So while this would be a good advise in general (to prepare vista out of vista), it's not required - or it shouldn't be.

The system I reported, I used the vista resize a long time ago before I installed openSUSE 10.3 on the machine. I have only boot vista about 5 times. When I first purchased the machine and resized the disk. Once after installing 10.3. Once prior to the openSUSE 11.0 RC1, and then after the openSUSE upgrade/install from 10.3 to 11.0. Sadly I wiped the 11.0 install and re-installed 10.3 from my backup. So I do not have any logs. My system does not come with media so it is a real pain to fix. I would be willing to try and RC2. But I use this machine for my main work. I really can not afford to be down. -- Boyd Gerber ZENEZ 1042 East Fort Union #135, Midvale Utah 84047 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

On Sun, 2008-06-08 at 09:39 +0200, Martin Schlander wrote:

Lørdag den 7. Juni 2008 22:02:55 skrev Stephan Kulow:

...

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alberto Passalacqua:

...

...

No delays because of Vista. Please.

Vista has at least 15% market share, and as people buy new computers that will grow. Breaking Vista is suicide.

Is it possible that the problem only occurs when partitions are resized (by the openSUSE installer)?

If so maybe the installer could say. "You have crappy Vista, please use crappy Vista partitioning tool to create an empty partition before installing nice openSUSE". --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

If you think breaking Vista is suicide, why do you assume insulting it with adjectives like "crappy" will be tolerated ? Casual --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Is there a bug opened? Open a bug, with a "BLOCKER" rank. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alberto Passalacqua schreef:

...

IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't see way we need to support window issues here. If someone really needs windows, then install XP.

Again, it's just MY opinion.

In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a distribution away in favour of another one.

It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.

Regards, Alberto

Nobody realy cares about vista. All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista yet. Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new windows, which is supposed to come someday. I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a crippled os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Andras Barna schreef:

"just because it has been made by the richest software firm."

NOT because that, because the users!

...

Most of them massively migrated back to XP....

-- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Putrycz, Erik schreef:

Can't you get any help from Microsoft on this with the Novell/MS agreement?

Erik.

This is farout the best option.. ;) -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I think Alberto is right, Oddball notwithstanding. No final release should carry such a burden. If GM should be rolled out with the shadow of a doubt, it will have to be published, as to make people aware they are likely going to break their system. Who should give such a Distribution a try ? No serious IT person I should think. If we want to be renowned as the Distro for Geeks and Freaks, that's the way to go. Casual On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 19:56 +0200, Oddball wrote:

Alberto Passalacqua schreef:

...

...

IMHO delaying 11.0 because of Vista is not the best thing to do. I don't see way we need to support window issues here. If someone really needs windows, then install XP.

Again, it's just MY opinion.

In a few words: this is exactly the reason it would make me throw a distribution away in favour of another one.

It's _impossible_ to think that people using the major opearating system has to adapt to use openSUSE. Like it or not, it's that simple.

Regards, Alberto

Nobody realy cares about vista. All major laptops manufacturers have written drivers for XP, because the clientele can't use vista, besides that, many apps don't work with vista yet. Vista will be rejected by many, who will wait for XP-sp3, or the new windows, which is supposed to come someday.

I would suggest to find a solution, but not delay GM release for a crippled os, just because it has been made by the richest software firm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Casual J. Programmer:

Also there is

http://blogs.technet.com/aralves/archive/2006/12/18/dual-boot-vista-with-ea sybcd.aspx

I found this tool before - when my own vista was broken, but it's an exe, so I'm not sure what it helps once you find your windows unbootable ;( Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Bernhard Walle schrieb:

* Stephan Kulow [2008-06-07 12:05]:

...

Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the bug as WORKSFORME.

Have a look at the bug #396444 ( https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=396444 ). It seems that our wizards of oS finaly found what goes wrong - hooray !!! :-)

I think both options are not good. If the bug cannot be fixed, there should be a detection of Vista in YaST and if Vista is detected, then a warning should pop up that the installation of openSUSE may break the booting of Vista. With a hint how to fix it afterwards. Maybe a link to the openSUSE Wiki where additional information can be added afterwards.

Then the *user* can decide if it's worth the risk. But we should be honest to our users! A user that installs openSUSE 11.0 the first time and gets a broken Windows with all the data lost (for him in the first place) -- such a user will never ever install Linux (and not only the SUSE flavour) next X years.

I second that in every respect. To be honest in such situations is the only right solution. --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I

Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very serious bug. -- -Alexey Eromenko "Technologov" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Alas, no Vista available for test! However, I'm in doubt whether this information could be of whatever interest for tech people: http://blogs.sun.com/moinakg/entry/solaris_vista_dual_boot_revisited Greetings Rob On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:

...

...

I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I

Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very serious bug.

That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories, I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with vista wants to test?

Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Putrycz, Erik pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

...

Alas, no Vista available for test!

We all need vista licences!!

Erik

Maybe we can get a bulk discount. :-)) -- Ken Schneider SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

* Andreas [06-07-08 23:08]:

...

Is there something like a trial download for Vista? I don't mind downloading and testing it, but I don't want to pay for a real license.

If they (m$) base the cost to you on realized value, they will pay you to test vista out of the goodness of their ?heart. But the possible damage to your hardware and mindset is incalculable :^) -- Patrick Shanahan Plainfield, Indiana, USA HOG # US1244711 http://wahoo.no-ip.org Photo Album: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/gallery2 Registered Linux User #207535 @ http://counter.li.org --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Sorry folks, my pre-version of vista expired already. Casual On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 22:12 +0200, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:

...

...

I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I

Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very serious bug.

That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories, I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with vista wants to test?

Greetings, Stephan --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Hello, Stephan Kulow wrote:

Am Samstag, 7. Juni 2008 schrieb Alexey Eremenko:

...

...

I think, it would be worth to release an RC2 or sync out a fixed factory. I

Yes, if the bug is real, then releasing RC2 makes sense, as it is very serious bug.

That's the "delay 11.0" option. It seems you guys like to discuss theories, I wanted vista installs tested with logs. How would a RC2 help if noone with vista wants to test?

I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Am Montag 09 Juni 2008 schrieb Peter Czanik:

Hello,

Peter Czanik wrote:

...

I just finished installing VistaSP1 on my x86 machine and installing the latest factory right now. I wonder if Vista will be broken again. Doing an xfce install instead of KDE4 to get results faster :-)

Just finished installation, and Vista booted without any problems. I wonder, if it makes any difference: originally I used Vista Business, and now Vista Ultimate SP1. If you are still interested in logs, let me know. Bye,

No, we have enough successful logs by now - the bug is WORKSFORME ;) Greetings, Stephan -- SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org

Lukas Ocilka wrote:

I'll try the only known unsuccessful story (consulted with juhliarik) 11.0 in primary partition, Generic code in MBR It should be quite easy to restore part of MBR checked by Vista.

OK, that worked! Info got from Jozef Uliarik, found by Steffen Winterfeldt(?). Before installation: # dd if=/dev/sda skip=440 bs=1 count=6 of=sda_crc openSUSE 11.0 1.) Clean Vista Home Premium (sda1, boot flag set) 2.) Installing 11.0, Generic code MBR, Set active flag, all in Primary parts 3.) Windows loader is replaced with Generic code After that, Vista doesn't boot, so I booted to the rescue system and called: dd if=sda_crc seek=440 bs=1 count=6 of=/dev/sda and rebooted. After reboot, Vista loads via GRUB. openSUSE works too. Have a nice day Lukas

Bernhard Walle schreef:

* Stephan Kulow [2008-06-07 12:05]:

...

Currently I have only two options: delay 11.0 or close the bug as WORKSFORME.

I think both options are not good. If the bug cannot be fixed, there should be a detection of Vista in YaST and if Vista is detected, then a warning should pop up that the installation of openSUSE may break the booting of Vista. With a hint how to fix it afterwards. Maybe a link to the openSUSE Wiki where additional information can be added afterwards.

Then the *user* can decide if it's worth the risk. But we should be honest to our users! A user that installs openSUSE 11.0 the first time and gets a broken Windows with all the data lost (for him in the first place) -- such a user will never ever install Linux (and not only the SUSE flavour) next X years.

I just remember when I installed SUSE LINUX 6.3 the first time. I read the manual before installing anything. I didn't install the boot loader to MBR because that was considered as "dangerous". I installed the bootloader to a floppy disk and each time I wanted to boot Linux, I moved that disk into my floppy drive. I took 2 month after I installed LILO in MBR. And it worked. My Windows 98 never stopped working. And that was important for me.

Bernhard (that's my private opinion, not as SUSE/Novell employee)

Ofcourse it would be out of the question *not* to warn the users! Let a user the choice is always the best option in this. We are all users. Allways be honest. -- Enjoy your time around, Oddball (Now or never...) Besturingssysteem: Linux 2.6.25.4-8-default x86_64 Current user: oddball@AMD64x2-sfn1 System: openSUSE 11.0 (x86_64) KDE: 4.0.4 (KDE 4.0.4 >= 20080505) "release 21.1" --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org