On Wed 19 Sep 2012 11:00:07 AM EDT, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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On Wednesday, 2012-09-19 at 16:09 +0200, Michal Vyskocil wrote:

...

Any objections, or other ways to go?

Allow me to explain the problem from my point of view.

We can not get updates for the "java-1_6_0-sun" package. Instead, we can install "jre-6u33-linux-amd64.rpm", which rpm lists as "jre-1.6.0_33-fcs.x86_64".

The problem is that the system (yast) does not recognize this package as a valid java, and insists on installing java-1_6_0-openjdk or others, and we have to keep and update two versions of java that I do not want or need.

What I want is simply an empty rpm in place of the original (12.1, 11.4) java-1_6_0-sun, with the appropriate requires, provides, etc fields (which I know nothing about) so that yast is fooled. And I can install jre from oracle and use it.

That would be enough.

If you feel interested, you could instead provide a package like the one that fetches the MS fonts, fetching java instead.

(the point of why we want jre is not the issue now)

- -- Cheers, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux)

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Good one. I like Carlos's idea. -- Cheers! Roman --------------------------------------------------------------- openSUSE -- Get it! Discover it! Share it! --------------------------------------------------------------- http://linuxcounter.net/ #179293 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 18:41, ar16@imapmail.org wrote:

For anyone interested

Download your JDK of choice from:

...

java -version Picked up _JAVA_OPTIONS: -Dswing.aatext=true -Dawt.useSystemAAFontSettings=on -Xmx512M java version "1.7.0_07" Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.7.0_07-b10) Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 23.3-b01, mixed mode)

Have you tried? I will repeat here the post where I related what happened: +++····················· As we know, openSUSE no longer provides updates for Java from Sun. We can install the JRE rpm from them, and remove the java-1_6 rpm, because JRE is an update of that one - but yast does not recognizes it as an update, and wants to install icetea-web. I had to taboo it. Then yast insisted and tried to install java-1_6_0_opnjdk. Again I said no and tabooed it. Then Yast insisted and wanted to install gcc-ijj - more or less in that order. I also tabooed it. Then YaST got mad at me and wanted to remove openoffice, and I told it to &&%%·$ itself and break dependencies. ·····················++- - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBZ+qkACgkQIvFNjefEBxolcwCfdZ1cYHdDx+g2y+eyk39/NXoO Oc4AoJlKfzNZ6eyefd+PeqpTWD9R7iF2 =uGEw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 18:23, Lars Müller wrote:

A pseudo package with the provides and requires is not this hard and should be easy to establish by the comminity.

Well, I tried, and failed. This is why I'm asking for help. I created a "java" directory. I created there a Makefile: +++···················· all: dummie_java-sun gcc dummie_java-sun.c -o dummie_java-sun install: install dummie_java-sun /usr/local/bin ····················++- and a dummie_java-sun.c +++···················· #include int main() { printf("Este programa es un dummie para que el rpm crea que hay un java-1_6_0-sun.rpm en el sistema\n"); } ····················++- then I run checkinstall, and I get an rpm: cer@Telcontar:~/Compilaciones/dummies/java> rpm -q java java-1.6.0-999.x86_64 but this rpm does not fool yast, it doesn't have the needed clauses which I don't know what they are nor how to create :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBZ+IsACgkQIvFNjefEBxoZ5wCaAqjNlePwj/vToj2qC07mGW7P smIAoKCDftvo/3HKIr5dMIAy1s6B6xcQ =4GJ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 19:52, Lars Müller wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 06:53:31PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

but this rpm does not fool yast, it doesn't have the needed clauses which I don't know what they are nor how to create :-(

This is not about to foul.

It's about to understand what's going on and then you'll see what's missing. As soon as you know what's required you know what the pseudo package has to provide.

Well, I assume that the people that did the packaging of JRE in the past would know how to create that rpm in an instant. For me it is next to impossible.

But this only makes sense if someone is willing to maintain this as I tried to outline in the mail accessible from the archive URL quoted above.

But this fake rpm doesn't need maintenance, it stays the same for the entire life of a distro, I believe. You don't even need to bump versions, because the real rpm containing java is installed by the user, it is his responsibility. The task of this rpm is only to fool yast (or whatever word you like) so that we do not need to install another java. If someone wants to provide one that also does the fetching and installing, that would be wonderful - but it is not really needed. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaC4UACgkQIvFNjefEBxrL+ACeJQ2OgyYK0EAuMYOMtUNekrXj slsAnjEwW7hQBLn5uJbFoqH+DCoL0dOq =f9di -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 20:54, Lars Müller wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 08:14:29PM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Well, I assume that the people that did the packaging of JRE in the past would know how to create that rpm in an instant. For me it is next to impossible.

You started to work on it and I guess you're on the right way. See my last reply. You need to enhance it further. And find others willing to colaborate with you. That's what the Open Build Service is made for!

The OBS is greek to me, I can not go that way.

...

But this fake rpm doesn't need maintenance, it stays the same for the entire life of a distro, I believe. You don't even need to bump versions, because the real rpm containing java is installed by the user, it is his responsibility.

But a user expects to get updates if it's this easy to install something. If we make it easy to install we have ti ensure to make it easy to maintain it to.

The rpm I propose is only a dummy, the user has to install and update himself the real rpm. It needs little work or none from the community once the rpm is created.

I don't claim to have the solution for the issue. But before we offer something as part of the openSUSE project we need to make a bit more than only one step.

...

The task of this rpm is only to fool yast (or whatever word you like)

If you write on this list try to learn the terminology. It's not about what I or anyone else likes it's about what we disduss and to make our communication easier and even as precise as possible.

Sorry for being this pedantic. Here this is a feature and not a bug. ;)

Sorry, but to me the expression "fool yast" is correct. I want yast to believe that java is installed when it is not, and that in English is said as fooling someone. At the moment I don't know how else to express that in English and it is quite precise. If you have another idea of how I should say that, please say what should I say, not that I should not say "fool someone". I don't know how else to say it.

...

so that we do not need to install another java.

If someone wants to provide one that also does the fetching and installing, that would be wonderful - but it is not really needed.

It is needed. See above.

It is more complex and needs maintenance. I'm not asking for it.

Please move the pros and cons to a wiki page. As a starting point you might take the questions I raised with this mail http://lists.openSUSE.org/opensuse-factory/2012-09/msg00736.html

If I knew how to do it I would do it in minutes. I don't, so I ask somebody else to create that dummy rpm, that's all. Talking about it is pointless, even more a wiki page. What for? That's what committees are created in politics. :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaKAAACgkQIvFNjefEBxptigCghtWfNvjXjiP2aCyYKwus1IoI lyQAn2rwzyKhHQVvtOoA7VaWl8xr7aL+ =Y5Zw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:08, Claudio Freire wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since java-1_7_0-openjdk provides java, and (presumably) Oracle's rpm also provides java, first question to ask is why is Yast trying to install java-1_6_0-openjdk. Presumably, because some package has something like:

Requires: java = 1.6.0

openSUSE 11.4 and 12.1 have requirements for java 1.6, of course.

If that package requires exactly 1.6.0, it must be: 1 - it does require java6 and doesn't work with java7, in which case you really need java-1.6.0-openjdk

Yes, but I want to use instead java from Sun, because that's the one third parties want. So I want to install JRE from SUN (no problem with that) and make Yast not force me to instal any other java flavour (1.6) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaKNkACgkQIvFNjefEBxrlEQCgrI4y8ayaZhcb5NNat+wKh51r BXAAn2Pkkf9fPPCnmV5tm/tdA13742ke =yTAT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:28, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:19 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

...

If that package requires exactly 1.6.0, it must be: 1 - it does require java6 and doesn't work with java7, in which case you really need java-1.6.0-openjdk

Yes, but I want to use instead java from Sun, because that's the one third parties want. So I want to install JRE from SUN (no problem with that) and make Yast not force me to instal any other java flavour (1.6)

I haven't installed sun's rpm. He who did... what does it provide? (rpm -q -f <rpm file> -i)

cer@Telcontar:~/Compilaciones/dummies/java> rpm -q -i jre Name : jre Version : 1.6.0_33 Release : fcs Architecture: x86_64 Install Date: 2012-08-21T08:29:33 CEST Group : Development/Tools Size : 51435894 License : Copyright (c) 2011, Oracle and/or its affiliates. All rights reserved. Also under other license(s) as shown at the Description field. Signature : (none) Source RPM : jre-1.6.0_33-fcs.src.rpm Build Date : 2012-06-22T04:14:30 CEST Build Host : jdk-lin-amd64.sfbay.sun.com Relocations : /usr/java Packager : Java Software Vendor : Oracle and/or its affiliates. URL : http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/overview/index.html Summary : Java(TM) Platform Standard Edition Runtime Environment Description : The Java Platform Standard Edition Runtime Environment (JRE) contains everything necessary to run applets and applications designed for the Java platform. This includes the Java virtual machine, plus the Java platform classes and supporting files. The JRE is freely redistributable, per the terms of the included license. Distribution: (none) cer@Telcontar:~/Compilaciones/dummies/java>

IMO, the one at fault here is sun's RPM since it must not provide java = 1.6.0.

I don't know why they should not provide 1.6.0. openSUSE provides java-1_6_0-openjdk, too.

Aside from fixing sun's package, whatever it does provide, if specific enough, can be made part of the requires of the proposed pseudopackage that provides java = 1.6.0. That's another fix.

Kind of:

%package -n java-1.6.0-oracle-dummy Requires: <> Provides: java = 1.6.0

The only maintainance neede there, is synching the requires with java's rpm when Oracle changes it.

The pseudo package must provide, or say it provides, the same thing things that the original "java-1_6_0-sun" from openSUSE provided, which is what yast wants. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaL0oACgkQIvFNjefEBxr0IwCfb7WOxDVT61cBgABOjrtqv7Sr vQsAoIIbsltfLCKaBSzkmncIffE88o1Y =TnIa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:50, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:47 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

...

The pseudo package must provide, or say it provides, the same thing things that the original "java-1_6_0-sun" from openSUSE provided, which is what yast wants.

Yes, but it also must require what Oracle's rpm provides, to disallow the case where the dummy is installed and not Oracle's rpm. That would confuse Yast for those that don't install Oracle's rpm (which is mostly everyone else).

Ah, I understand. It would suffice me, but it would not be safe for people that chance to install it without knowing. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaMP4ACgkQIvFNjefEBxoxhgCglW/S4Qd0gLDzEXOKtB57NCf2 oKkAoLP6iDZinWxBuH4exqjiy2ASC9un =xJwq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:58, Nelson Marques wrote:

Do not forget to consider the impact of the Epochs defined (they exist in JDK at least); this can screw up completly your repos software, this is a dangerous operations if you don't consider the impact of them ;)

I have no idea what is that or their impact, sorry O:-) - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaM3oACgkQIvFNjefEBxozqwCfR+5z7n1qzBnVamU95Bf8bjS/ VKgAnArwfdsy97RPJ3CoboKJZ6xPwDIX =RXSl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 20:20, Nelson Marques wrote:

Carlos,

export JAVA_HOME="/usr/java/default" export PATH="$JAVA_HOME/bin:$PATH"

That's stuff... put that in a /etc/profile.d/java-sun.sh and reload your profile... it should work. JDK scripts from oracle should update the '/usr/java/default'.

You are not understanding the problem. I repeat that I have not any problem with running the java from Oracle/Sun. I have problems with the installation: Yast does not recognise JRE as providing java and wants to install another java. This is a packaging problem, not a java problem. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaI28ACgkQIvFNjefEBxqbggCgykp+vBWuetzkF2+y7HJbrjLY FtAAn2aB9lpqMHU8moV5dSEjddsS2FQ6 =1Kba -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:19, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

I repeat that I have not any problem with running the java from Oracle/Sun. I have problems with the installation: Yast does not recognise JRE as providing java and wants to install another java.

rpm -q --provides jdk

That's maybe because in fact it doesn't offer that dependency?

cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --provides jdk package jdk is not installed

I do understand the problem, because for my employer we use Sun/Oracle JVM and we've gone exactly through the same. We've fixed that by banning all the Java stuff from Red Hat and by inserting a 'virtual' package that provides those dependencies and that has a 'Requires' to sun Java.

They keywords is that we actually banned all stuff that uses gcj or openJDK :)

You probably don't want to go that path... but trust me, it's been working in very critical mission systems... of course we're not a Linux distribution and we have very specific stuff...

It is more or less what I want, I guess. I have an rpm from oracle named "jre". It contains java, it works fine, update-alternatives et all, but yast thinks it doesn't and makes me install other java flavours. cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --provides jre jaxp_parser_impl xml-commons-apis jre = 1.6.0_33-fcs very little compared to: Telcontar:~ # rpm -q --provides java-1_6_0-openjdk config(java-1_6_0-openjdk) = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 jaas = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 java = 1.6.0 java-1.6.0 = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-1.6.0-64 java-1.6.0-openjdk = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-64 = 1.6.0 java-openjdk = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-openjdk-64 = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-sasl = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jce = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jdbc-stdext = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jdbc-stdext = 3.0 jndi = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-cos = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-dns = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-ldap = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-rmi = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jre = 1.6.0 ... - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaLKMACgkQIvFNjefEBxrAAgCg061Pt/DldBvU70YuqnE2EY+i hL4An3aUEivwPBU38ELus+7QY3c18p4l =NmAC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-19 22:45, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --provides jdk package jdk is not installed

[nmarques@ptin-tst-evl-pds ~]$ rpm -q --provides jdk jaxp_parser_impl xml-commons-apis jdk = 2000:1.6.0_33-fcs

pay some attention to the crazy Epoch (2000); someone at Sun/Oracle is something weird stuff ;)

Dunno what is that. :-)

...

I have an rpm from oracle named "jre". It contains java, it works fine, update-alternatives et all, but yast thinks it doesn't and makes me install other java flavours.

Tip: Don't mix JDK with JRE (JDK also provides JRE), if you install both RPM's the %post scripts will not behave correctly. I'm used to JDK because we actually want JDK and not just JRE as we want some runtime byte compiling.

I don't know the difference, I don't program in java.

...

cer@Telcontar:~> rpm -q --provides jre jaxp_parser_impl xml-commons-apis jre = 1.6.0_33-fcs

very little compared to:

Telcontar:~ # rpm -q --provides java-1_6_0-openjdk config(java-1_6_0-openjdk) = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 jaas = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 java = 1.6.0 java-1.6.0 = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-1.6.0-64 java-1.6.0-openjdk = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-64 = 1.6.0 java-openjdk = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-openjdk-64 = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4-12.1 java-sasl = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jce = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jdbc-stdext = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jdbc-stdext = 3.0 jndi = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-cos = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-dns = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-ldap = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jndi-rmi = 1.6.0.0_b24.1.11.4 jre = 1.6.0 ...

And this is totally correct; it shows that openJDK is properly packaged according to JPackage; Sun isn't compliant to anything... except their own stuff... but it's still a great JVM, and 1.7.0 (besides some security issues) does offer quite a nice performance boost...

Whatever :-) All that is beyond me. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBaMG8ACgkQIvFNjefEBxp5VgCeLFhCWTRPGvL9+j8XymA3+J23 gFoAnjbFHLrN7kWbKlYN9lSqI2KMY4cA =8h7h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-19 22:57, Nelson Marques wrote:

2012/9/19 Carlos E. R. <>:

...

Dunno what is that. :-)

Epoch is part of the RPM NEVRA (E); it's a package comparison that will override the traditional version and release... this to say:

Ok, something complicated that other people know about :-)

Higher Epochs will override version and release versionings. You should know what it is if you are going to work with Oracle JDK.

No, I don't work with that. I just use some java applications that expect the java flavour from sun, and some of these expect version 1.6, not 7.

In an easy way (anyone feel free to explain better) the JRE is the runtime environment; the JDK includes the runtime environment and the byte compilers which turn code into byte compiled files. Pretty much the same as .py and .pyc in Python. So it's in a way the same as having a JAVA compiler on the system.

Ok. Yes, I have read of this before, just that I forget which is which. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBaWFoACgkQja8UbcUWM1wyawD9HrjgVl3GzrPdeVsyDMwKT9lf JgNOWz0n9TUkVE65voMA/3rakEljRliQWa9gggAtVAS7Z5Oec9ry0s7V0Ph89fQF =uwKx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 2012-09-20 02:59, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

No, I don't work with that. I just use some java applications that expect the java flavour from sun, and some of these expect version 1.6, not 7.

1.6 and 1.7 are Java platform technical specifications, pretty much also referred sometimes as Java6 and Java7, they are not versions.

I see. Thus it makes sense that java applications that work properly with J6 do not work with J7. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" (Minas Tirith)) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.16 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlBbdMwACgkQja8UbcUWM1x9LQD/Xb/ccSpC4qss+LNlV2/Qm8nA AESjdMgx2i/mTCeqwboA/j+tEMcIOQiBBUU/kAFh+xEozcR0U8jzUT9JxpcADe3s =lMyR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On 20 September 2012 05:31, Rajko wrote:

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:23:02 +0200 Lars Müller wrote:

...

Or with other words: the fonts are static while java is something else.

So fonts are fine with fetch-msfonts and java with fetch-oracle-java{1,2,3,4,..}.

It is not one time effort, but it will work.

IMHO it's crazy. To start with, is not openSUSE supposed to promote free software? And anyway it's too much work to do it properly. See https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=776951#c3. We would let the user uninstall the openSUSE provided Java implementation if he has the Oracle provided one. And that's it, that's all the help openSUSE needs to provide. Meaning: - If the user wants the Oracle Java implementation he is supposed to get it by whatever mediums *Oracle* provides. - The update process of such a package is something *between the user and Oracle*. The only thing openSUSE needs to do is not getting in the middle if the user decides to change its Java implementation vendor. And that can be done with a one time effort through https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=776951#c3. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Thursday 20 Sep 2012 21:59:50 Carlos E. R. wrote:

I agree.

The mailing lists are not the forums. Do you really need to pollute thousands of mailboxes and have the last word in every thread with a two word answer? I previously called you a pedant and refused to apologise for it because you *are* a pedant. Please stop spamming the mailing lists. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 03:29:21AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-09-22 22:55, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Thursday 20 Sep 2012 21:59:50 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I agree.

The mailing lists are not the forums. Do you really need to pollute thousands of mailboxes and have the last word in every thread with a two word answer? I previously called you a pedant and refused to apologise for it because you *are* a pedant. Please stop spamming the mailing lists.

I don't listen to orders from you.

Well, why do you reply? You must have listen to it. Graham summarized your habit in a very straight fashion. At the general openSUSE list (opensuse@opensuse.org) I'm willing to tolerate a bit more noise. But at the end even there your habit might cause more and more people to ignore you or worse to the project cause them to unsubscribe from the list. The same applies to all other openSUSE lists you reply to. As Graham said: The mailing lists are not the forums. As the result of your activity the noise to content ratio is turning bad. It's the result of your high frequent posting habit and your need to reply to mainly everything. Independent if it makes sense or not. Think about it and with replying to this mail you'll demonstrate that you're not willing to be mindful of others thoughts. Thanks, Lars -- Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ] Samba Team + SUSE Labs SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

On 23/09/12 17:12, Lars Müller wrote:

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 03:29:21AM +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

On 2012-09-22 22:55, Graham Anderson wrote:

...

On Thursday 20 Sep 2012 21:59:50 Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

I agree.

The mailing lists are not the forums. Do you really need to pollute thousands of mailboxes and have the last word in every thread with a two word answer? I previously called you a pedant and refused to apologise for it because you *are* a pedant. Please stop spamming the mailing lists.

I don't listen to orders from you.

Well, why do you reply?

You must have listen to it.

Graham summarized your habit in a very straight fashion.

Did he now. I happen to think he was misled. Lars, neither of you are native English speakers. Before you attack Carlos, let's get one fact clear. His ability to communicate in English far outstrips your own. Have you ever read the nonsense you type here? Salu2, L x -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-23 21:39, Rajko wrote:

On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:02:08 +0200 lynn wrote:

...

Lars, neither of you are native English speakers. Before you attack Carlos, let's get one fact clear.

How did you come to conclusion it is attack?

I do feel attacked and without reason. This subject was initiated by me (I made a post time ago, was told to create a bugzilla instead, and this bugzilla derived into this thread). I simply do not understand, I honestly don't, why I can not write that I agree with an opinion - unless that Graham has something with me and simply picks a fight with no excuse. But that others side with him is beyond my understanding :-( - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBfkZsACgkQIvFNjefEBxoLvQCdGyE/j0/tFdotshW6JjpNKt+G 5X4An07a282DnyRCd8ZwKui1U9MqGNZn =6bl6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-24 01:47, Claudio Freire wrote:

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Carlos E. R. <> wrote:

Nah, it's just that "me too" posts are frowned upon. Maybe, in this case, being your thread, it's less pointless to say "me too". But, in general, in all lists I've been to, "me too" posts aren't well received.

Well, sorry, I have been in these lists since 2003, and I don't recall seeing such a rule in the rules. I'll try to keep it in mind for the future. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBfpwkACgkQIvFNjefEBxo2jACfSJoshS2ui0sIANcO55WjUDZj NFYAoIplKSYiAk3mFjCLoYgYBPN3zjZU =qGwO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Rajko wrote:

...

Well, sorry, I have been in these lists since 2003, and I don't recall seeing such a rule in the rules. I'll try to keep it in mind for the future.

It is not a rule, it is just that people don't like it.

I think that mail list netiquette article needs some rework to make clear what is a rule and what are just likes and don't like. Maybe some poll(s) to create list of likes with some data behind. (Volunteers?)

Just vote here[0] You don't need to register (though it will ask), you don't even need to use facebook connect, you can vote anonymously. [0] http://other.livra.com/pick/which-mailing-list-behaviors-do-you-dislike-the-... -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

And by the way, only cowards and immature gits hide behind anonymity... Real honored man can live well with their decisions. 2012/9/24 Nelson Marques :

2012/9/24 Claudio Freire :

...

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Rajko wrote:

...

...

Well, sorry, I have been in these lists since 2003, and I don't recall seeing such a rule in the rules. I'll try to keep it in mind for the future.

It is not a rule, it is just that people don't like it.

I think that mail list netiquette article needs some rework to make clear what is a rule and what are just likes and don't like. Maybe some poll(s) to create list of likes with some data behind. (Volunteers?)

Just vote here[0]

You don't need to register (though it will ask), you don't even need to use facebook connect, you can vote anonymously.

[0] http://other.livra.com/pick/which-mailing-list-behaviors-do-you-dislike-the-...

And I do not volunteer and I refuse to engage on 'witch hunts', I for don't would like to remind you that is a public mailing list, and that eventually this just doesn't sound right (in the scope of a public mailing list).

So my advice is, why not making it moderated (for everyone, as we want equality) and so that there is really no mistake, between Carlos interventions and 'whitch hunt' emails, I'd rather live with his than with this threatening bullshit.

Lady and gents happy which hunt; lets just wait the results and see how much lame this community really is.

-- --- Artigo 21 - Direito à Resistência Todos têm o direito de resistir a qualquer ordem que ofensa os seus direitos, liberdades e garantias e de repelir pela força qualquer agressão, quando não seja possível recorrer à autoridade pública. Constituição da Républica Portuguesa -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-09-19 17:00, Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

Content-ID: On Wednesday, 2012-09-19 at 16:09 +0200, Michal Vyskocil wrote:

...

...

Any objections, or other ways to go?

...

Allow me to explain the problem from my point of view.

Let me point again that the problem is not installing and running the java from oracle, not at all, contrary to what posters so far suggest.

The problem is making yast, zypper, etc, accept the JRE rpm from oracle as a valid java and stop proposing install another java instead.

What's the problem with the installed openjdk? You say it doesn't disturb the orcle jvm. So just leave it there and zypp is happy. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Carlos E. R. wrote:

On 2012-09-20 10:39, Ludwig Nussel wrote:

...

Carlos E. R. wrote:

...

The problem is making yast, zypper, etc, accept the JRE rpm from oracle as a valid java and stop proposing install another java instead.

...

What's the problem with the installed openjdk? You say it doesn't disturb the orcle jvm. So just leave it there and zypp is happy.

It means downloading a set of big packages, and update them periodically, big downloads; and they are files that I will never use.

You can lock the package at the installed version if you really fear the download is getting too expensive. I somehow doubt that you have serious space concerns on a system where you install java stuff though. So I'd still argue that the benefit (if there is any) of adding ugly hacks to support the broken oracle java packaging is just not worth the effort.

It is also possible that a postinstall script would attempt to use updatealternatives to make that java the default java and break my system.

That would be a bug. cu Ludwig -- (o_ Ludwig Nussel //\ V_/_ http://www.suse.de/ SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Jeff Hawn, Jennifer Guild, Felix Imendörffer, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2012-09-23 23:53, Nelson Marques wrote:

I have dealt with this stuff in the past; finding a way to support this at distribution level would be a nightmare; And though Carlos is headstrong about providing only half of a solution (only for JRE), this would become a nightmare with JDK and it's cool Epoch of 2000...

I'm not that headstrong. If doing that fake package I propose will provoke other problems, then of course, don't do it. I can not be a judge of that, you people are the experts. I simply have to use the JRE, like it or not. I just would like it easier. - -- Cheers / Saludos, Carlos E. R. (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.18 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlBfj+MACgkQIvFNjefEBxo6IwCgvO60X47TW2i3hSP465p0nJmo zXMAoIJZL5jqP6BpGsetleX0UFRDeSgK =RWYj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

We can't introduce mechanisms that will bring hellish situation to users for the sake of software we can't support... It's nothing technical about it, it's legal and good sense :)

What would be so hellish of the dummy package I mentioned? It would only be installable if Oracle's rpm is installed, so no harm done. Right? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

If you feel interested, you could instead provide a package like the one that fetches the MS fonts, fetching java instead.

(the point of why we want jre is not the issue now)

Other distributions are doing this. I have been in touch with Marcus Meissner about it and he said he was going to ask the legal folks if it was OK, although I never saw a response. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

Check the path I'm not sure if it's /usr/lib/java or /usr/share/java, but the default link is managed by %post scripts. I'll report the good values in a few minutes when I get back home. 2012/9/19 Nelson Marques :

Dude the only thing you need to do to use the Sun JVM is to export the JAVA_HOME... how hard can that be ?

for example:

echo "export JAVA_HOME=\"/usr/lib/default\"" > /etc/profile.d/java-sun.sh

That .sh file is sourced so it doesn't need to be 0755.

There's nothing you can do to suppor the stuff from sun... It's not even packaged according to jpackage... and worst... it comes with Epoch set to 2000, while historically jpackage is set to 1.

People who want to user vendor stuff should learn to use it. (my opinion)

There's almost 3000 lines of scripts in Oracle/Sun check them out: rpm -q(p) --scripts jdk*.rpm

2012/9/19 Michal Vyskocil :

...

Hallo all,

from time to time I got the complaints from the users want to use our Java packages, but not the JVM itself. As Oracle retired the permission to distribute their own JVM, most of the users want to manually install the Oracle JVM instead of openjdk we distribute.

In a past, we have changed a logic of alljava.sh, so it search for jvm in /usr/java/latest and /usr/java as well, so can setup the proper JAVA_HOME for third-party JVM.

The next unsolved problem are dependencies. In a bug#776951 I've got an proposal to introduce the fake package with java, but I do not like that approach. We don't need to deal with a dependencies at all, if we intentionally break them.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=776951

Instead of it, I propose following - change all Requires: java in openSUSE:Factory to Recommends: java. For default openSUSE setup, it won't make any difference. For people wanting to have third-party java installed, they can add lock for distributed JVMs and put their preffered JVM.

There is only one problem - users can turn the recommends off, but I don't see that as a probable case for Java software, so I would go forward.

Any objections, or other ways to go?

Regards Michal Vyskocil

-- --- Artigo 21 - Direito à Resistência

Todos têm o direito de resistir a qualquer ordem que ofensa os seus direitos, liberdades e garantias e de repelir pela força qualquer agressão, quando não seja possível recorrer à autoridade pública.

Constituição da Républica Portuguesa

-- --- Artigo 21 - Direito à Resistência Todos têm o direito de resistir a qualquer ordem que ofensa os seus direitos, liberdades e garantias e de repelir pela força qualquer agressão, quando não seja possível recorrer à autoridade pública. Constituição da Républica Portuguesa -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 05:31:25PM +0100, Nelson Marques wrote:

Dude the only thing you need to do to use the Sun JVM is to export the JAVA_HOME... how hard can that be ?

Well, from openSUSE 12.2 /etc/profile.d/alljava.sh already check jvm at /usr/java/latest and /usr/java, which is the default path of Oracle JVM.

for example:

echo "export JAVA_HOME=\"/usr/lib/default\"" > /etc/profile.d/java-sun.sh

That .sh file is sourced so it doesn't need to be 0755.

There's nothing you can do to suppor the stuff from sun... It's not even packaged according to jpackage... and worst... it comes with Epoch set to 2000, while historically jpackage is set to 1.

I am thinking about allowing end-users to have our little Java stack (ant, tomcat, ...) installed together with any proprietary JVM. But considering all consequences of others things, maybe the fake package - java-7-null??? to satisfy the dependencies does not sounds that bad ... Regards Michal Vyskocil -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Nelson Marques wrote:

Check how Sun JDK and JRE act together, specially at scripting level and how they manage the symlinks :) Yes I know that JDK also provides JRE but users will be able to install both packages also, and in that case you should contemplate that scenario and make sure your dummy packages and scriptage can handle that particular situation :)

Conflicts? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/9/24 Nelson Marques :

2012/9/24 Claudio Freire :

...

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

Check how Sun JDK and JRE act together, specially at scripting level and how they manage the symlinks :) Yes I know that JDK also provides JRE but users will be able to install both packages also, and in that case you should contemplate that scenario and make sure your dummy packages and scriptage can handle that particular situation :)

Conflicts?

Conflicts where? You can't change Oracle packages man; So from that point of view, users will always be able to install both oracle packages... Where do you want to insert the Conflicts? :) Furthermore... Which version of Oracle are you going to support? 1.7.0 with those nasty bugs and a few zero day exploits in the wilderness ?... What about if users dont want 1.7.0 and something else ?

Really, I honestly want to see how a distribution fixes this kind of issue...

I'm specially eager to see people who might want to build stuff against JNI from Oracle packages and how it goes after on dependency resolution. I look forward to see how people can fix all the potential trouble and how long it will take :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

The dummy package. You have the jdk-dummy and the jre-dummy, you can make them conflict with each other. jdk-dummy provides what Oracle's jdk doesn't for openSUSE packages, and requires Oracle's jdk, making it a bridge between the two packages. You cannot install both bridges, because they conflict.

This is where the problem starts, because Oracle rpms don't provide anything; I'll show a quick example... You build a piece of software (lets say a library) that links on JNI; for every single package you will have a lot of pre/post streaming filtering to do... Else they won't resolve (something the dummy packages will fix?)... Now the dummy packages insert all this dependencies; Then you will have dependencies overlapping, ones from openJDK, others from your dummy packages (e.g. the JNI shared objects). So you are duplicating dependencies, from which one of the packages (your dummy one) won't be able to resolve properly because you don't have Oracle stuff in repository (are you allowed to re-distribute the Oracle RPMs ?. If you support that stuff and you actually have a lot of develpors, they will create a (like Linus says) unholy mess; which you will have to support... And you can never support Oracle RPMs (and why should we? it's really OSI friendly).

You *can* install both of Oracle's rpms, but you cannot do so as a replacement to the distribution's packages (which is what the dummy packages do).

Install them from where ? :)

About the JNI stuff... I don't know about that. The only JNI stuff I used were gtk bindings with eclipse, and I've never had any trouble switching VMs at will. That doesn't rule out problems though. But, presumably, he who replaces the JVM/JDK "knows what he's doing".

That's what JNI is there to; to make sure that you have some sort of compatibility layer to use any vendor JVM (so far it's working properly, I would risk to say (blindly) that 95% of the stuff will work OK). But the problem is... When you build an RPM, it's internal dependency generator will most likely add dependencies to the JNI shared objects, which the Oracle rpm doesn't provide... This has some solutions... being one of them that the dependency is offered by your dummy package, and the other is post/pre streaming filtering. Neither of this seems reasonable to me for a wide environment like a distribution (while in a corporate environment you can twist and bend all the rules to your needs). Like I said, I would love to see this working (maybe I can learn something from it), but I think it's going to be a nightmare to maintain in a Linux distribution as Oracle hasn't really made life easier for people. Also you might have to deal with the Epochs on JDK, which is nice enough :)... I have to say one thing, I like people with determination and crazy thoughts, so I'll help testing in any way I can :) NM -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org

2012/9/24 Claudio Freire :

On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Nelson Marques wrote:

...

But the problem is... When you build an RPM, it's internal dependency generator will most likely add dependencies to the JNI shared objects, which the Oracle rpm doesn't provide...

Ah, I see... and we certainly don't want to break our packages to support Oracle's.

Well I have faith it can be done, but I think it's hard to do it without generating turmoil here and there. Lets just wait and see :) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org To contact the owner, e-mail: opensuse-factory+owner@opensuse.org