Basil Chupin wrote:
Sid Boyce wrote:
Basil Chupin wrote:
Stephan Kulow wrote:
Hi,
This week we had base system freeze and heading towards Beta1 next week.
For this we mastered DVDs named Alpha3plus that we use for internal testing of the installation workflow and some media layout - to avoid bad suprises with beta1.
So far it looks really, really good - I found only one critical (already fixed) and two minor problems.
The DVDs are now based on images - meaning they install in record time, but this creates currently some problems for factory users. I plan to create a more detailed blog about this feature tomorrow.
Also the autoconfiguration feature is tested for the first time and the live installer saw some fixes, so we hope to finalize the "only DVDs and live CDs" strategy with beta1.
KDE4 is under hot discussion, not sure yet what to do.
I'm sure I forgot tons of things, right now we see really a lot of changes.
Greetings, Stephan
Greetings Stephan,
Today (my time) is Friday, 11 April, so I have all the msgs so far in response to your original msg (above).
Let me make a small contribution to this discussion.
I am helping a friend, who has known nothing but Windows all his life, to use openSUSE. This help is being done over a large distance using nothing but e-mails. A long and dragged-out process.
His constant complaint is that openSUSE is far harder to install - and upgrade/update - than Windows. In Windows, as he expressed, you simply double-click on an .exe file -- and it is installed.
Similar comment was made about the actual installation process: boot the CD, answer a few questions and the whole sheebang gets installed (without going thru the boring questions of which desktop you want, do you accept the suggested partitioning configuration, and so on).
Forget about the by-now biased and narrow-minded thinking of the openSUSE "brigade" in this mail-list and go for the way the Windows' users are used to after all the years.
Who is openSUSE aimed at?
Is it aimed at the current openSUSE users, in which case this many worded and bloated discussion about what to display and where is a TOTAL waste of space and time because 'you' are talking to those who already know openSUSE and don't need directions, or is it aimed at the "newbie", the Windows et alia, user who is likely to switch over to openSUSE (Linux generally)?
If the latter then make the installation similar to what they are all used to- the way Windows does it.
There is no shame in this.
(To be honest, one of the things that makes me shudder everytime is the EGA-type graphics-approach to the menus displayed when one installs openSUSE, and then to see those oversized icons on the desktop when the system is finally installed and you 'boot' into it. It all looks SO amateurish, so "kids' stuff".
Why are the icons on the desktop by default 48 pixels big? 22 pixels is the right size - and if too small for the user then the user can adjust the size upwards.)
One other thing - and this is NOT meant to be offensive to anyone.
There have been some comments made here about the wording of the error messages.
These error messages can *VERY loosely* be compared to the instructions one often gets with products made in China, and previously in Japan.
The problem here is that there is a language translation problem.
Perhaps the error messages, and whatever, should be looked at by someone who is a competent translator for the language being used in a language-specific version of openSUSE?
(No offense was meant to anyone in the above, but there needs to be some attention paid to the complaints of those who are trying to use openSUSE for the first time.)
Ciao.
As it's "open"SUSE anyone can make contributions if it is felt that it falls short. The Linux way is to offer choice. I know if some people have 6 shirts, choosing one can be lead to confusion. Once the distro is set up, either by one's own efforts or help of others, it's solid and simply calling it "amateurish" and "kids' stuff" is blowing hot air. People who have for decades cheerily put up with Windows viruses, malware, spyware, crashes, lost work and other ills, still proudly sing it's virtues of ease, professionally done, etc. Lack of choice is also seen as a virtue. Linux is easy to install and use, lots have done it, are still doing it and are quite happy with what it offers. I have newbies using Linux that I've installed for them and I hardly get any queries, sometimes they discover things I am not aware of. Last week one user had a problem with sound which at first I thought may have been caused when he did an automatic update to 10.3, however, it turned out to be a faulty on-board sound chip, he ordered a new sound card, I disabled the on-board sound, popped the new card in, sorted the mixer volumes and he was on his way - the only problem he has had since openSUSE 10.0 was installed. The calls I get are mostly Windows and the users are clueless. Change a motherboard, sound card, networking and most of them run into problems. Error messages in any OS are cryptic, even to seasoned Windows users and often the cure to all problems is to wipe the Windows hard drive and reinstall. Right now my brother has a problem where everything was working normally after a couple of visits from Packard Bell to reinstall XP, now suddenly using his webcam in skype brings the whole box crashing down. Imagine the rukus that would cause from a user of openSUSE, but such things are an acceptable happening in Windows. To hold Windows up as a beacon is laughable. Linux is not Windows, it's different to Windows and the openSUSE team does a great job at providing us with a very stable and usable platform that is free of pollutants, the minor effort is getting to know it. If that's too much for a newbie, then they are free to get something else that does all the thinking for them and possesses the same tawdry look wherever you see it. Now I have to return a call left on my answering machine earlier - yet another Windows problem. Regards Sid.
Someone came up with the brilliant idea of having thumbnails showing which Desktops are available for installation - love it.
Following on re this idea have a look at this which I accidentally came across earlier today while fooling around with the second computer:
http://www.mandriva.com/en/product/mandriva-linux-one
and then to see the sort of screens a newbie used to Windows now expects from a distro when installing it download the LIVE CD file called mandrake-linux-2008-one-KDE-cdrom-i586 (694M) at this location:
http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/carroll.cac.psu.edu/MandrivaLinux/officia...
In what you state above there is this recurring theme used by others where the flaws of Windows are always mentioned as if they were a justification for not trying to improve how, say, our own preferred distro, openSUSE, is installed and how it looks. Who gives a damn about Windows? I don't. But I did mention with respect to the way those who have been raised on Windows, and have a Windows mentality, want to see a distro look/behave when they go about installing it for the first time.
Neither do I, but Windows is always referenced as the gold standard in these discussions.
To quote you from above, "I have newbies using Linux that *I'VE INSTALLED FOR THEM* [my emphasis]". And here is the bottom line about what is being discussed in this thread (at least the way I see it): how best to make it easier for people to install openSUSE and make it easier for them to make decisions about the more appropriate for them features.
I mentioned the quoted line above for a good reason. There have been and still are Linux Installfests where new and prospective users have been guided through installs and if Windows wasn't mandated on most of the tin shipped, I'm sure many problems would be encountered much the same as in Linux. I am all for improvement and we have seen it in spades. Back at SuSE 8.2, a colleague who had only had a basic intro to Solaris class asked to borrow my CD's. A few weeks later I got a call from him with a bit of trepidation, expecting lots of questions detailing difficulties, instead it was to tell me his wife loved it as she was now conducting her photographic business without crashes and loss of work, the improvement between then and 11.0 is immense. Many times we underestimate the intelligence of many newbies. Most of the ones with problems are the ones with one track minds. My greatest embarrassment in Linux was with what I called "the class of '98" when many of those guys were asking questions like "how do I create a .bat file in Linux?" and others you won't believe, but I watched them transformed into competent Linux users. Before 1998 or since, I haven't seen the likes. I have so many happy tales, including one colleague who asked me to install Linux on his laptop to dual boot with XP, I put CD1 in and booted up, then got called away to work on a Solaris problem and when I got back, he had SuSE up and running, much to my surprise. Sometimes I have been surprised by colleagues who I thought would have known better, like the one who said, "I installed Linux on my PC at home", then asked what you do with Linux after you install it. My reply was simply to point to my Linux laptop sitting on the desk opposite his. We were both doing tech support, me at a third level and he at 2nd level, we were both delivering system classes using powerpoint and the whole panoply of work related stuff. Largely it depends on the mindset of the person approaching Linux for the first time and the current monoculture throws up many problems that are not "real" problems but misconceptions by people who think they know all about computers.
Look at the URLs I provided above and tell me how,say, the first one compares to what is showing on the Novell site (at least the last time I looked, months ago).
(Now, I have a strong feeling that there will be a statement made sooner or later that to be able to present openSUSE along the lines, or preferably better, of what, say, you see for Mandriva (above), there is no programmer available because all are too busy to do any more than they are currently doing. I understand this and I really sympathise with everyone involved with openSUSE. But then I have to say that if there is money available to employ a Community Manager then there should be money found to employ a programmer to help all the others, now busting their guts on openSUSE, in implementing any changes which would benefit the distro in the short to medium term - and beyond.)
Ciao.
We could always do better, obviously. I have been a Mandrake/Mandriva subscriber for years and have used that distro alongside SuSE/openSUSE without any real difficulties, but for ease of use for newbies, I have always given them SuSE/openSUSE. I don't know that simply having a Community Manager necessarily will fix anything, what we need are developers who are usability experts and graphical designers - that task is left to too few and to those without the required knowledge base, so they do their best. Once people are stepping off familiar territory, there are bound to be endless questions and difficulties, whatever we do, someone will get stuck if there isn't a .exe or .dmg file. Regards Sid. -- Sid Boyce ... Hamradio License G3VBV, Licensed Private Pilot Emeritus IBM/Amdahl Mainframes and Sun/Fujitsu Servers Tech Support Specialist, Cricket Coach Microsoft Windows Free Zone - Linux used for all Computing Tasks --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: opensuse-factory+unsubscribe@opensuse.org For additional commands, e-mail: opensuse-factory+help@opensuse.org